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  1. #1
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    No Vandellas solos at all?

    Ive always wondered if there has ever been even a few words sung solo by any of the Vandellas, other than Martha. Have three been? Many members of Motown groups got at least some solo opportunitites but apparently not the Vandellas. I wonder why.

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    I know Lois cut a few solo tracks for Ian Levine's Motorcity project.
    But I believe your question concerns the groups time while on Gordy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by luke View Post
    Ive always wondered if there has ever been even a few words sung solo by any of the Vandellas, other than Martha. Have three been? Many members of Motown groups got at least some solo opportunitites but apparently not the Vandellas. I wonder why.
    Yes,I believe it was only once and in the very early days. At one point there were four Vandellas.Gloria Jean Williamson,who left before they could hit the big time sang lead on a 45."You'll Never Cherish a Love So True[[till you lose it)" b/w "There He Is [[at my door). It was released under the name The Vells. This is the only time I know of that Martha Reeves didn't sing lead on their records.
    Last edited by Quinn; 12-31-2017 at 01:00 AM.

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    Seems like I remember Roz doing something.

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    Martha said something to the effect that they were not a group or it was her group.

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    Quote Originally Posted by marv2 View Post
    Martha said something to the effect that they were not a group or it was her group.
    I never understood Martha's view of this. Even today, Martha has some strange perspective that she's essentially the only one that mattered because it wasn't really about the group. I feel Martha always wanted to be a solo artist, but never had the confidence so she relied on a group.

    As much flak people give Diana for being selfish and wanting to hog the spotlight, she still viewed herself as a member of a group. We heard solos or brief vocal spots from Mary & Cindy even up to Diana's departure. In the Farewell show, Mary had two solos!

    Does anyone think Martha would have shared the spotlight to allow Roz, Betty or Lois have a chance to sing lead? It goes back to where Martha viewed herself and the Vandellas. To Martha, the Vandellas were background vocalists. There was no reason as to why they should sing lead. I heard stories that even today Martha refuses to won't allow her sisters to sign anything unless she signs it first, etc.

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    I never got the impression that Martha was selfish nor was she trying to hog the spotlight in any way at all. She revealed in her book, "Dancing In The Street: Confessions Of A Motown Diva", that, unlike the other Motown group members who were under contract to Motown itself, the Vandellas were under contract to her. It was surprising, for sure, but there was nothing negative implied regarding any of The Vandellas. In fact, Martha spoke highly of each and every Vandella member until internal troubles within the group flared up, which usually happened within all groups from time to time -- not just Motown. I may be wrong, but in the 50+ years that I've been loving Martha & The Vandellas and Motown, I've never perceived Martha as being anything more than one of Motown's finest singers who had the courage to stand up to Berry when she felt that injustice had been done regarding royalties or the like.
    Last edited by Philles/Motown Gary; 12-31-2017 at 03:23 AM.

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    Gordy didn't like groups; don't forget he wanted Levi's name out in front of the Four Tops as well, but Levi said no; Gordy liked show biz type figures [[Doris Day! Jackie Wilson! ) but in the 60's, groups were 'in', solo stars were not, so he masked his stars in groups, Smokey and the Miracles, Gladys & the Pips, Michael & The Jacksons,Martha & the Vandellas, Diana and the Supremes, until those solo stars could be liberated from 'group' bondage [[which Martha was happy to do when she signed with MCA), which is why all the endless nonsense about Ross is so ridiculous but seems to serve as a hobby for some

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    I believe Roz and Annette have both refuted that and have said they most certainly were signed to Motown. Martha seems all over the place per the Vandellas. She seemed to go through a stage when she would seemingly minimize their contribution ...” if the world knew how many people were actually Vandellas...”, then later very specifically mentioning them all by name. You’d think to help the ladies feel positive they’d at least get some stage patter, a few solo lines a la the Pips, the Supremes, the Marvelettes...Just curious.
    Last edited by luke; 12-31-2017 at 08:58 AM.

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    The only vandella I ever heard sing was Sandra. She did sing lead on one of the versions of we got a honey love. But she was with the velvettes when she did it.

    Her version:
    https://youtu.be/3ajCPpLp8og

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    Martha Reeves demanded that all of the Vandellas be inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. I remember the ceremony when all of them thanked her. By the way, Martha began her career as a solo artist singing in Detroit nightclubs under the name "Martha Lavelle".

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    Quote Originally Posted by bradsupremes View Post
    I never understood Martha's view of this. Even today, Martha has some strange perspective that she's essentially the only one that mattered because it wasn't really about the group. I feel Martha always wanted to be a solo artist, but never had the confidence so she relied on a group.

    As much flak people give Diana for being selfish and wanting to hog the spotlight, she still viewed herself as a member of a group. We heard solos or brief vocal spots from Mary & Cindy even up to Diana's departure. In the Farewell show, Mary had two solos!

    Does anyone think Martha would have shared the spotlight to allow Roz, Betty or Lois have a chance to sing lead? It goes back to where Martha viewed herself and the Vandellas. To Martha, the Vandellas were background vocalists. There was no reason as to why they should sing lead. I heard stories that even today Martha refuses to won't allow her sisters to sign anything unless she signs it first, etc.
    From what I've read in various books, interviews, and liner notes, the Del-Phis [[the group with Gloria, Rosalind, Annette, and Martha) had broken up and Martha was working as a solo under the name, Martha Lavalle. This was when Mickey Stevenson saw her and gave her a card to come to Motown. Instead of getting an audition, she became the A&R secretary.

    The girls only got back together when background singers were needed for Marvin Gaye and Martha called in her old group mates to do it. Somewhere in this same period, to satisfy union rules, Martha stepped in for Mary Wells on I'LL HAVE TO LET HIM GO and impressed Berry. After that, Berry offered them a contract to which Martha was very enthusiastic, but she wrote that the other girls said they would consider it. Even though they had recorded two sides with Gloria as lead, she quit at that point, and the remaining three signed. Berry put Martha's name in the group in case one of the other girls quit.

    I suppose Martha would have been just as happy to be a solo artist if Motown would have given her an audition and a contract instead of the A&R secretary position. I do recall an interview where she said having the Vandellas was more of a need of hers in needing companionship on the road as opposed to needing serious background singers.
    Last edited by reese; 12-31-2017 at 10:05 AM.

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    I don’t believe the Vandellas became contractual to Martha until Lois stepped in which is why it confuses me how Martha could have such control to have Betty and later Roz fired. Wouldn’t that be something Motown/Gordy be in control of? Diana didn’t have the power to tell Motown she wanted Florence fired, but rather took a group meeting/decision with Gordy.

    Martha certainly goes hot and cold in regards to her relationship with the Vandellas. Today I think things are rather cold between Martha and Roz & Annette especially due to Roz & Annette touring as the Original Vandellas.

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    I think regarding Martha having the power to fire Betty and Roz, my opinion is that it all came down to the fact that the public probably didn't know who either of them were. The Supremes were a bigger act and Florence was known so there was probably a lot more careful consideration to showing Flo the door.

    The Vandellas took a brief break beginning in 1969 and when Martha was ready to regroup I believe she had someone at Motown inform Roz that she was no longer needed in the group. Betty's firing was a bit more direct from Martha and was an impulse decision.

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    Doesn't Betty Kelly get a few short moments in the spotlight, called out & playfully chastised by Martha [[You call that sangin?) during the closing medley of the 20 Grand Performance released on Gordy 925?

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    Quote Originally Posted by floyjoy678 View Post
    I think regarding Martha having the power to fire Betty and Roz, my opinion is that it all came down to the fact that the public probably didn't know who either of them were. The Supremes were a bigger act and Florence was known so there was probably a lot more careful consideration to showing Flo the door.
    The difference between Marta & The Vandellas and the Supremes is that all three Supremes had their names on album covers, the posters with Greatest Hits, and even mentioned in a hit song. I don't recall the Vandellas listed on any album covers, just Martha.

  17. #17
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    That’s kind of the point

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    I agree brad with a lot of what you said but Diana certainly wanted Flo out and the meeting was pretty much a formality.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thommg View Post
    The difference between Marta & The Vandellas and the Supremes is that all three Supremes had their names on album covers, the posters with Greatest Hits, and even mentioned in a hit song. I don't recall the Vandellas listed on any album covers, just Martha.
    The back cover of the Heatwave album acknowledges soprano, Rosalyn Ashford & alto Annette Beard; Dance Party's back cover identifies Martha, Rosaly & Betty Kelly as the girls who make up the explosive Martha & the Vandellas; Martha, Lois & Sandra are each pictured individually & named on the back cover of Sugar n' Spice; On Black Magic, Martha, Lois, & Sandra are identified by name & zodiac sign.

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    Quote Originally Posted by luckyluckyme View Post
    The back cover of the Heatwave album acknowledges soprano, Rosalyn Ashford & alto Annette Beard; Dance Party's back cover identifies Martha, Rosaly & Betty Kelly as the girls who make up the explosive Martha & the Vandellas; Martha, Lois & Sandra are each pictured individually & named on the back cover of Sugar n' Spice; On Black Magic, Martha, Lois, & Sandra are identified by name & zodiac sign.
    I think he meant the supremes were promoted as individuals where the vandellas weren’t. The marvelettes were named on the back of the sophisticated soul album but was pretty unknown

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    Then there was Saundra Mallett...


    https://motownjunkies.co.uk/2010/08/24/208/

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    Quote Originally Posted by mysterysinger View Post
    Then there was Saundra Mallett...


    https://motownjunkies.co.uk/2010/08/24/208/
    Thanks Mysterysinger

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    Quote Originally Posted by mysterysinger View Post
    Then there was Saundra Mallett...


    https://motownjunkies.co.uk/2010/08/24/208/
    Martha wasn't on this recording and in an interview with IN THE BASEMENT, sounded a bit miffed that Rosalind and Annette did it without her.

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    Interesting that ... one Motown lead singer ... gets crucified 50+ years later for not yielding solos to other members but another lead singer is viewed as blameless. Same with lead singer's name coming before the group name. Always adjudicated as being a ... 'different' .... situation. But the concept of logic never seems to apply here, does it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceNHarmony View Post
    Interesting that ... one Motown lead singer ... gets crucified 50+ years later for not yielding solos to other members but another lead singer is viewed as blameless. Same with lead singer's name coming before the group name. Always adjudicated as being a ... 'different' .... situation. But the concept of logic never seems to apply here, does it?
    Martha Reeves was not sleeping with the boss Berry Gordy to get their records released over others.

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    The Supremes, because Diana Ross had an instantly recognizable voice and became a major star, attract attention to minute detail that no other Motown group did.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jobeterob View Post
    The Supremes, because Diana Ross had an instantly recognizable voice and became a major star, attract attention to minute detail that no other Motown group did.
    She was sleeping with the boss and in the lingo of Millennials, she was "thuggin' for tracks" even way back then. That benefited the Supremes and they have admitted it over the years.

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    The Vandellas did have stage patter at The Copa in '68. There were a few [[clearly rehearsed) stage lines tossed back and forth to lead into "Honey Chile" between Martha, Roz, and Lois. I'd bet there was more, too, if we could ever hear the entire performance. Plus, as someone noted, there's the "teasing" of Betty [["you call that sangin'?!) on the "M&TV Live!" album. Especially at a venue like The Copa, Motown groups [[male or female) were probably expected to have an act that contained a bit of stage patter and whatnot. If it worked for The Supremes...

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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceNHarmony View Post
    Interesting that ... one Motown lead singer ... gets crucified 50+ years later for not yielding solos to other members but another lead singer is viewed as blameless. Same with lead singer's name coming before the group name. Always adjudicated as being a ... 'different' .... situation. But the concept of logic never seems to apply here, does it?
    It was always Martha & The Vandellas, but it wasn't always Diana Ross and the Supremes. And I don't think most of the fans crucify Diana for not giving anyone else lead time. Most of just enjoyed the times when a lead went to Flo or Mary.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blackguy69 View Post
    The only vandella I ever heard sing was Sandra. She did sing lead on one of the versions of we got a honey love. But she was with the velvettes when she did it.

    Her version:
    https://youtu.be/3ajCPpLp8og
    Hearing Sandra's lead-vocal voice was a first for me, too, blackguy69. I actually like it a lot! Her phrasing on certain lyrics throughout were amazingly professional. If I were hearing "[[We've Got) Honey Love" being sung for the first time ever, I would love Sandy's version, but in my head and my heart, that song will always belong to Martha. Thanks for sharing Sandy's version. If you should come across any more Motown tracks by her, please bring 'em on!

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    Chris Clark was sleepin with the boss, and that worked out well for this world famous superstar didn't it? lol..and the endless line of other superstars who were sleeping with the boss.. Berry Gordy called the shots at Motown, period, and Gordy wanted Florence outta The Supremes due to her endless attacks on him and his decisions regarding the group... Happy New Year!! lol

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    Drummers never play the guitar. Violinists never play the saxophone. Backup gals should never sing lead. The world loves the lead star or they would not be the “lead star.” Almost no one gave two hoots about the revolving gals who stood six feet behind the star.

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    Hold up folks before world war 100 breaks out. This isn’t about Diana or any of the supremes so don’t add them to this conversation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimi LaLumia View Post
    Chris Clark was sleepin with the boss, and that worked out well for this world famous superstar didn't it? lol..and the endless line of other superstars who were sleeping with the boss.. Berry Gordy called the shots at Motown, period, and Gordy wanted Florence outta The Supremes due to her endless attacks on him and his decisions regarding the group... Happy New Year!! lol
    Right? ... some slept with the boss; some slept with everybody else ... so be it! Another way to look at it: those who hate/d Barack Obama had to resort to lies about him being from Kenya beacuse they could not find real faults with him; likewise those who hate Chris Clark, Martha Reeves, etc have to resort to lies about them. All of a kind.
    Last edited by PeaceNHarmony; 01-01-2018 at 09:40 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimi LaLumia View Post
    Chris Clark was sleepin with the boss, and that worked out well for this world famous superstar didn't it? lol..and the endless line of other superstars who were sleeping with the boss.. Berry Gordy called the shots at Motown, period, and Gordy wanted Florence outta The Supremes due to her endless attacks on him and his decisions regarding the group... Happy New Year!! lol
    Diane must have threw in the "extras". Berry tried to date Flo once....she said no! Happy New Year!

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    Marv you fell right into the trap lol. People this thread isn’t about Diana. Things have been civil here. Don’t mess it up

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    Quote Originally Posted by Circa 1824 View Post
    Drummers never play the guitar. Violinists never play the saxophone. Backup gals should never sing lead. The world loves the lead star or they would not be the “lead star.” Almost no one gave two hoots about the revolving gals who stood six feet behind the star.
    Very true ......

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    Quote Originally Posted by Circa 1824 View Post
    Backup gals should never sing lead. The world loves the lead star or they would not be the “lead star.”
    Wasn't Dionne Warwick a back up gal before Burt Bacharach picked her out to demo tracks for him?

    Wasn't Whitney Houston a back up gal for her mother before being given some featured spots etc.?

    I'd much rather listen to a Lisa Fischer set than a Mick Jagger one. I don't begrudge the latter his success but I don't think the former not becoming a name makes her "lesser" than the headliner.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Circa 1824 View Post
    Almost no one gave two hoots about the revolving gals who stood six feet behind the star.
    Circa1824, I wouldn't go quite that far. I agree that many back-up singers aren't qualified to sing lead, but the back-up singers were equally important to me as the lead vocalist. Back in the 60s, I grew up with Philles and Motown. Those groups were like family to me. Whenever there was a personnel change with a group, I sensed an immediate loss [[temporary, of course, but, nonetheless, a loss). I think a lot of Motown fans here would agree with that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by smallworld View Post
    Wasn't Dionne Warwick a back up gal before Burt Bacharach picked her out to demo tracks for him?

    Wasn't Whitney Houston a back up gal for her mother before being given some featured spots etc.?

    I'd much rather listen to a Lisa Fischer set than a Mick Jagger one. I don't begrudge the latter his success but I don't think the former not becoming a name makes her "lesser" than the headliner.
    katy Perry, Gwen Stefani, Mariah Carey, Mary J.blige were all back up gals before going big. Luther and Elton were backup guys

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    the 'extras"..LOL..love it, Marv... Happy New Year!

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    a lot of people can be back up singers..not everyone has the show biz bug to be an attention holding front person.. I love Miss Warwick for example but she was never exactly an electrifying performer..vocalist, absolutely..on stage dazzle? not so much..

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    Very true PMG. Call and response singing is an integral part of many R and b records and is one factor why they are so powerful! As is stated in 20 feet from stardom those singers are so integral to the music.

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    The sleeping with thing is over-rated anyway. Did anyone buy a record because s/he slept with, say, Tom Jones?

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    Then there are groups where all the singers are lead singers....
    i.e. The Pointer Sisters....and did it damn well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceNHarmony View Post
    The sleeping with thing is over-rated anyway. Did anyone buy a record because s/he slept with, say, Tom Jones?
    PNH - I only buy records based on who they slept with. It adds to the musical ambiance. Happy 2018. Looks a lot like 2017, 2016, 2015, 2014, you get my drift.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thanxal View Post
    PNH - I only buy records based on who they slept with. It adds to the musical ambiance. Happy 2018. Looks a lot like 2017, 2016, 2015, 2014, you get my drift.
    You buy records based on the ability to hear and buy them. Sleeping with the boss can get them recorded, released and promoted........

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    Quote Originally Posted by thanxal View Post
    PNH - I only buy records based on who they slept with. It adds to the musical ambiance. Happy 2018. Looks a lot like 2017, 2016, 2015, 2014, you get my drift.
    LOVE it! Wait till I spill the beans; we'll all go broke!

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    Quote Originally Posted by marv2 View Post
    You buy records based on the ability to hear and buy them. Sleeping with the boss can get them recorded, released and promoted........
    Is that the only way, Marv?

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