Patti labelle & the bluebelles - all or nothing [[rare clip 1966)

[CoolKatz]

I'm posting this on the Motown side because of Cindy Birdsong

[midnightman]

Looks like Where the Action Is. Love how all four match up in wigs and wardrobe lol

Atlantic should've promoted them better. They got far but not far enough imho...

This was also one of Luther Vandross' favorite songs. I don't know when he started the Patti LaBelle and the Bluebelles fan club but this must've been around this time. He did that song on Patti's BET Walk of Fame tribute.

It's great to see vintage Patti in her 20s!!! And Cindy looks great [[well all four of them do lol)

[PeaceNHarmony]

Love it - a new one for me.

[marv2]

Looks like Where the Action Is. Love how all four match up in wigs and wardrobe lol

Atlantic should've promoted them better. They got far but not far enough imho...

This was also one of Luther Vandross' favorite songs. I don't know when he started the Patti LaBelle and the Bluebelles fan club but this must've been around this time. He did that song on Patti's BET Walk of Fame tribute.

It's great to see vintage Patti in her 20s!!! And Cindy looks great [[well all four of them do lol)

Yep. "Where the Action Is" use to come on weekday afternoons after school and right after "Dark Shadows" went off. LOL!

[BigAl]

Nice clip. It's always good to see Cindy pre-Supremes and Patti pre-cosmetic surgery. For me, this song and "Take Me For a Little While" were their best Atlantic sides and great ones, but neither was promoted. I never heard "All or Nothing" on the radio at all, and only heard "Take Me For a Little While" once. Both could have been hits. They signed with Atlantic at around the same time that Mary Wells and Aretha Franklin did, and Jerry Wexler got solidly behind Aretha, but the other acts didn't have that sort of champion at the label. [[In fact Wexler once callously said he "couldn't do nothing" with Mary.) Patti and the gals were similarly lost in the shuffle while Aretha climbed the charts — very much the way Hitsville's female acts suffered similar fates while Diane was pushed to the top of the heap. Apparently there was only room at these labels for one queen bee.

[marv2]

Nice clip. It's always good to see Cindy pre-Supremes and Patti pre-cosmetic surgery. For me, this song and "Take Me For a Little While" were their best Atlantic sides and great ones, but neither was promoted. I never heard "All or Nothing" on the radio at all, and only heard "Take Me For a Little While" once. Both could have been hits. They signed with Atlantic at around the same time that Mary Wells and Aretha Franklin did, and Jerry Wexler got solidly behind Aretha, but the other acts didn't have that sort of champion at the label. [[In fact Wexler once callously said he "couldn't do nothing" with Mary.) Patti and the gals were similarly lost in the shuffle while Aretha climbed the charts — very much the way Hitsville's female acts suffered similar fates while Diane was pushed to the top of the heap. Apparently there was only room at these labels for one queen bee.

Can you imagine all of that talent that got sidelined? Whew!

[luke]

So true. I think Patti is the greatest female entertainer in the business! Love All or Nothing and Take Me for a little while and Dear Lover by Mary. Great post coolkatz!

[PeaceNHarmony]

Nice clip. It's always good to see Cindy pre-Supremes and Patti pre-cosmetic surgery. For me, this song and "Take Me For a Little While" were their best Atlantic sides and great ones, but neither was promoted. I never heard "All or Nothing" on the radio at all, and only heard "Take Me For a Little While" once. Both could have been hits. They signed with Atlantic at around the same time that Mary Wells and Aretha Franklin did, and Jerry Wexler got solidly behind Aretha, but the other acts didn't have that sort of champion at the label. [[In fact Wexler once callously said he "couldn't do nothing" with Mary.) Patti and the gals were similarly lost in the shuffle while Aretha climbed the charts — very much the way Hitsville's female acts suffered similar fates while Diane was pushed to the top of the heap. Apparently there was only room at these labels for one queen bee.

I don't think it was a matter of those terrible, evil record labels who, after all, did sign and record these performers. I think it's more a matter of AM airplay at the time and a combination of limited playlists and a variety of genres to present wedged in between commercials, weather reports, etc. But the conspiracy theorists always have other ideas, don't they? As Ralph said: 'It's the record business. Get over it.' Now that you have managed to use yet another thread to try to denigrate Diana Ross perhaps he'll close this thread as well and sadly members here will not be able to view this lovely rare clip.

[motony]

Mary Wells last release on Atco was "[[Hey You)Set My Soul On Fire" which Mary & Cecil wrote & produced & was a new direction for Mary who would sign with Jubilee shortly after. It stands to reason that Jerry Wexler would get his productions the promotion needed as he was an Atlantic Records VP.

[marv2]

I don't think it was a matter of those terrible, evil record labels who, after all, did sign and record these performers. I think it's more a matter of AM airplay at the time and a combination of limited playlists and a variety of genres to present wedged in between commercials, weather reports, etc. But the conspiracy theorists always have other ideas, don't they? As Ralph said: 'It's the record business. Get over it.' Now that you have managed to use yet another thread to try to denigrate Diana Ross perhaps he'll close this thread as well and sadly members here will not be able to view this lovely rare clip.

Ok, so if what you are saying is true, then why was Payola such a big issue in those days?

[marv2]

Mary Wells last release on Atco was "[[Hey You)Set My Soul On Fire" which Mary & Cecil wrote & produced & was a new direction for Mary who would sign with Jubilee shortly after. It stands to reason that Jerry Wexler would get his productions the promotion needed as he was an Atlantic Records VP.

He didn't promote her. Strange because at that time, Mary Wells had a proven track record of hits, whereas Aretha did not when she signed with Atlantic. Jerry and company pull out all the stops for Aretha which is why they went all the way down to Muscle Shoals, AL to record her as well as deal with Ted White!

[luke]

Very true Marv. I think even Jerry Wexler himself admitted as much in comments he made about Mary and Patti and Bluebelles. [[I have no idea what any of this has to do with Diana Ross...am I missing something?). Good point about Payola.

[marv2]

Very true Marv. I think even Jerry Wexler himself admitted as much in comments he made about Mary and Patti and Bluebelles. [[I have no idea what any of this has to do with Diana Ross...am I missing something?). Good point about Payola.

Man forget Diana Ross. At least Jerry had the insight to admit that he/they missed the ball with Patti and the Bluebelles and Mary Wells.

[midnightman]

Very true Marv. I think even Jerry Wexler himself admitted as much in comments he made about Mary and Patti and Bluebelles. [[I have no idea what any of this has to do with Diana Ross...am I missing something?). Good point about Payola.

Seriously doubt it. This was Atlantic in New York, not Motown in Detroit. As Ralph said, "it's business".

I also think besides from lack of label support, they [[PL & Bluebelles) didn't have great management either. I think Bernard Montague was their manager. I wonder why he couldn't give the group a label that really looked out for them.

[PeaceNHarmony]

Seriously doubt it. This was Atlantic in New York, not Motown in Detroit. As Ralph said, "it's business".

I also think besides from lack of label support, they [[PL & Bluebelles) didn't have great management either. I think Bernard Montague was their manager. I wonder why he couldn't give the group a label that really looked out for them.

I think, too, it's a 'get over it' moment to realize that the vast majority of records are not hits regardless of how good they are ...

[thanxal]

I think, too, it's a 'get over it' moment to realize that the vast majority of records are not hits regardless of how good they are ...

Nope. I completely disagree. Not so much with you, PNH, but this general idea that "if it didn't sell, it's not good". While this might be what makes capitalism tick [[the "its business" excuse) it is VERY disconnected from culture [[what's really good). I can go on and on [[as can anyone here) about artists who were really, really good, but never made it commercially. Ella and Billie are the first two to come to mind. Go research how many #1s they had... short assignment. So this reverence to the "market" or "business" has absolutely no merit for me. None. Not a drop.

Pure horsepucky has been sold to teenagers for ages. It doesn't make it technically or culturally good music. Once we get over this "herd effect", we might get a bit closer to music that is actually, you know, good.

That's not to say that anything popular isn't good, but it too must rise to technical and/or cultural relevance to be more than "popular". I would argue much of Motown, and most of the music that never gets discussed here, falls into the former category... music that was technically and culturally excellent but didn't rise to popular acclaim. It is very sad that only the popular stuff gets the hits here. But then again, that is exactly what happened when the music was originally released, so why should I expect anything different?

[midnightman]

I just think some material SHOULD'VE been better promoted. This song was a potential pop HIT.

[marv2]

Nope. I completely disagree. Not so much with you, PNH, but this general idea that "if it didn't sell, it's not good". While this might be what makes capitalism tick [[the "its business" excuse) it is VERY disconnected from culture [[what's really good). I can go on and on [[as can anyone here) about artists who were really, really good, but never made it commercially. Ella and Billie are the first two to come to mind. Go research how many #1s they had... short assignment. So this reverence to the "market" or "business" has absolutely no merit for me. None. Not a drop.

Pure horsepucky has been sold to teenagers for ages. It doesn't make it technically or culturally good music. Once we get over this "herd effect", we might get a bit closer to music that is actually, you know, good.

That's not to say that anything popular isn't good, but it too must rise to technical and/or cultural relevance to be more than "popular". I would argue much of Motown, and most of the music that never gets discussed here, falls into the former category... music that was technically and culturally excellent but didn't rise to popular acclaim. It is very sad that only the popular stuff gets the hits here. But then again, that is exactly what happened when the music was originally released, so why should I expect anything different?

Well you know that popular music reaches for the lowest common denominator.....at least here in America. That's why crap like "Disco Duck" became a big hit and a lot of that pablum that Lionel Richie put out later in his career. Simple songs, simple meaningless lyrics. You know what I mean.

[Bluebrock]

Well you know that popular music reaches for the lowest common denominator.....at least here in America. That's why crap like "Disco Duck" became a big hit and a lot of that pablum that Lionel Richie put out later in his career. Simple songs, simple meaningless lyrics. You know what I mean.

You really do have an agenda with Lionel don't you? What in hells name has he got to do with this thread? Lionel is a legend whether you like it or not. I agree not all of his music has been top notch, but you can say the same for just about every other superstar. He is responsible for some truly [[pardon the play on words) beautiful and enduring popular music.

[PeaceNHarmony]

I just think some material SHOULD'VE been better promoted. This song was a potential pop HIT.

I sure agree on that point! This one is a real beauty and I'm happy it was posted here.

[BigAl]

It was a long, long road for Patti, Nona, Cindy and Sarah.

Cindy got lucky [[or at least famous) first by joining DRATS. Then Nona's partner, Vicki Wickham took the first step toward mainstream notice for the group, shortening the name to Labelle and finding them funkier material. That was a great help and got them part of the way up, but they went through Warner's without much success. Vicki then put them into their signature outlandish outfits and they signed with RCA, again without making any real splash, before signing with Epic and finally, finally getting Allen Toussaint's "Lady Marmalade" which got them that essential major hit. But not too long thereafter, from all accounts, Patti and Nona disagreed on the group's musical direction. Nona wanted to do socially relevant material [[much of which she penned) while Patti just wanted to get down. [[I imagine Sarah was caught in the middle.) Thus they went their separate ways before racking up any more big hits. More's the pity, but these things often happen with groups, both in and out of the music biz. Patti fared quite well as as solo, as we know. Nona had a few notable recordings but not much name recognition. Sarah managed to get herself a club hit and a solo album before she got lost in the shuffle. They reunited as a trio briefly in 2008, without garnering much attention. Still, they left a body of impressive work.

[marv2]

It was a long, long road for Patti, Nona, Cindy and Sarah.

Cindy got lucky [[or at least famous) first by joining DRATS. Then Nona's partner, Vicki Wickham took the first step toward mainstream notice for the group, shortening the name to Labelle and finding them funkier material. That was a great help and got them part of the way up, but they went through Warner's without much success. Vicki then put them into their signature outlandish outfits and they signed with RCA, again without making any real splash, before signing with Epic and finally, finally getting Allen Toussaint's "Lady Marmalade" which got them that essential major hit. But not too long thereafter, from all accounts, Patti and Nona disagreed on the group's musical direction. Nona wanted to do socially relevant material [[much of which she penned) while Patti just wanted to get down. [[I imagine Sarah was caught in the middle.) Thus they went their separate ways before racking up any more big hits. More's the pity, but these things often happen with groups, both in and out of the music biz. Patti fared quite well as as solo, as we know. Nona had a few notable recordings but not much name recognition. Sarah managed to get herself a club hit and a solo album before she got lost in the shuffle. They reunited as a trio briefly in 2008, without garnering much attention. Still, they left a body of impressive work.

So would you agree that the right songs and production can make or break a group/artist? I think all would agree that Labelle were great singers and all they needed was great songs and production, along with the adequate promotion of course.

[BigAl]

So would you agree that the right songs and production can make or break a group/artist? I think all would agree that Labelle were great singers and all they needed was great songs and production, along with the adequate promotion of course.

Most certainly.
"Lady Marmalade" was so flawless that it would have been difficult to find a suitable follow up. The follow-up which ensued, "What Can I do For You," was a great song, but it didn't measure up to the precedent set by "Marmalade." Most of the time it takes more than just one major hit for an act to stay in the public's consciousness. Then, as I mentioned, musical disagreements within the group didn't help matters any. Patti prevailed because she was such a big voice and big personality. She continued to work some crazy-ass hairstyles for several year as well, which of course made an indelible impression. She finally grabbed the public's attention and got the promotion she had missed out on as a group member. If anyone deserves stardom, it's performers like Patti. She paid huge dues to get there.

[marv2]

Most certainly.
"Lady Marmalade" was so flawless that it would have been difficult to find a suitable follow up. The follow-up which ensued, "What Can I do For You," was a great song, but it didn't measure up to the precedent set by "Marmalade." Most of the time it takes more than just one major hit for an act to stay in the public's consciousness. Then, as I mentioned, musical disagreements within the group didn't help matters any. Patti prevailed because she was such a big voice and big personality. She continued to work some crazy-ass hairstyles for several year as well, which of course made an indelible impression. She finally grabbed the public's attention and got the promotion she had missed out on as a group member. If anyone deserves stardom, it's performers like Patti. She paid huge dues to get there.

Other than her 1983 solo album, "Motown Returns to the Apollo" is was what crossed Patti Labelle over as a solo superstar in my opinion. After that night, there was no stopping her.

[luke]

Very true and that Live Aid concert. Nona Hendryx became a music trailblazer and has never sought great commercial success.

[marv2]

Very true and that Live Aid concert. Nona Hendryx became a music trailblazer and has never sought great commercial success.

You remember the Patti Labelle TV Special?

[midnightman]

Y'all missed that she contributed to the Beverly Hills soundtrack in late 1984. That's what broke her through pop radio [[New Attitude and Stir It Up). Patti just happened to be at the right place at the right time: the '80s were now opening up post-MJ and Tina Turner to black artists and after Tina's breakthrough as a middle aged diva, labels were now looking for other middle aged divas to make big pop overtures. Patti had been seen as "the journeyman's pop star" for 20 years at that point so when she did break through with New Attitude [[which was recently lipped by the queens on RuPaul's Drag Race the other night), Patti had finally arrived and became the legend she is now but like Tina before her, she had put in 7 years of hard work to get there. That's why her evolution was so fascinating how an artist can rediscover themselves after many years in the business. Now people know Patti was never NO joke.

[marv2]

Y'all missed that she contributed to the Beverly Hills soundtrack in late 1984. That's what broke her through pop radio [[New Attitude and Stir It Up). Patti just happened to be at the right place at the right time: the '80s were now opening up post-MJ and Tina Turner to black artists and after Tina's breakthrough as a middle aged diva, labels were now looking for other middle aged divas to make big pop overtures. Patti had been seen as "the journeyman's pop star" for 20 years at that point so when she did break through with New Attitude [[which was recently lipped by the queens on RuPaul's Drag Race the other night), Patti had finally arrived and became the legend she is now but like Tina before her, she had put in 7 years of hard work to get there. That's why her evolution was so fascinating how an artist can rediscover themselves after many years in the business. Now people know Patti was never NO joke.

I didn't miss anything. I had been buying Patti's solo stuff since 1977 and "Joy to Have Your Love" [[which is a better record than "New Attitude" in my opinion. Her first solo R&B number one was in 1983 with "If Only You Knew". After that people were buying Patti Labelle. Her performance at "Motown Returns to the Apollo" is what put her over big time similar to how "Motown 25" sent Michael Jackson into the stratosphere.

[midnightman]

Well I meant to say you forgot to mention because I didn't see it mentioned at all. That's all.

I preferred when she did Live Aid though [[and then those TV specials she did that year where she was the only star).

[luke]

What about On My Own with Michael McDonald? That note she hit gave me chills!

[marv2]

What about On My Own with Michael McDonald? That note she hit gave me chills!

That song was perhaps the ultimate "Patti Labelle experience" LOL! Well, "If You Ask Me To" was one also.

[midnightman]

If You Asked Me To's pop placement should've been higher than it was, I feel MCA didn't push it harder.

The ULTIMATE Patti song still remains If Only You Knew in just the way it builds up and up... the beginning is already intense but mellow and it just raises until the end!

Another song whose pop placement should've been much higher than it was [[again Philadelphia International COULD'VE pushed it higher; think the song was done in 1982 but held off from a year but I doubt that had anything to do with it).

And then You Are My Friend is another [[from the '77 debut). When she was with Labelle, I swear their final single to chart, Isn't It a Shame... what made Patti just GO IN? Just... wow...

Then the Burnin' album in general but especially When You've Been Blessed and Somebody Loves You Baby.

But those would the PLE's [[besides If You Ask Me To)

[bradsupremes]

It should also be noted this beautiful song was co-written by a then soon-to-be Motown songwriter, Pamela Sawyer.

[midnightman]

It should also be noted this beautiful song was co-written by a then soon-to-be Motown songwriter, Pamela Sawyer.

OH WOW! Didn't know that! Definitely makes more sense to put this in the Motown aisle then! Whoa... I'm starting to realize how Patti has been Motown-connected all this time: one of her Bluebelles became a Supreme, she was friends with Tammi Terrell, is friends with Gladys Knight, was engaged to Otis Williams, etc.

What's missing is Stevie producing her next album lol

[PeaceNHarmony]

If You Asked Me To's pop placement should've been higher than it was, I feel MCA didn't push it harder.

The ULTIMATE Patti song still remains If Only You Knew in just the way it builds up and up... the beginning is already intense but mellow and it just raises until the end!

Another song whose pop placement should've been much higher than it was [[again Philadelphia International COULD'VE pushed it higher; think the song was done in 1982 but held off from a year but I doubt that had anything to do with it).

And then You Are My Friend is another [[from the '77 debut). When she was with Labelle, I swear their final single to chart, Isn't It a Shame... what made Patti just GO IN? Just... wow...

Then the Burnin' album in general but especially When You've Been Blessed and Somebody Loves You Baby.

But those would the PLE's [[besides If You Ask Me To)

All great singles. IYAMT was sure a barn-burner in concert.

[reese]

OH WOW! Didn't know that! Definitely makes more sense to put this in the Motown aisle then! Whoa... I'm starting to realize how Patti has been Motown-connected all this time: one of her Bluebelles became a Supreme, she was friends with Tammi Terrell, is friends with Gladys Knight, was engaged to Otis Williams, etc.

What's missing is Stevie producing her next album lol

Stevie did produce a song on Labelle's PRESSURE COOKIN' album credited only as "Friend."

[midnightman]

Stevie did produce a song on Labelle's PRESSURE COOKIN' album credited only as "Friend."

*DOH* That's right, I forgot that. But I meant what I said about an album. LOL

But yeah Labelle's Open Your Heart on RCA Records. Ugh, like Warner, a top label, but they didn't do anything. Epic got it right for them for a while lol

But imagine if that Stevie song was actually promoted lol

[midnightman]

All great singles. IYAMT was sure a barn-burner in concert.

I'm saying. The way she held that doggone note... Patti's one of the only singers you hear when they sing something, you throw a shoe at them, going "GONE NOW, SING THAT SONG!" LMAO!!! [[like when Aretha threw her shoe at Ronald Isley lmao)

[TheMotownManiac]

Nice clip. It's always good to see Cindy pre-Supremes and Patti pre-cosmetic surgery. For me, this song and "Take Me For a Little While" were their best Atlantic sides and great ones, but neither was promoted. I never heard "All or Nothing" on the radio at all, and only heard "Take Me For a Little While" once. Both could have been hits. They signed with Atlantic at around the same time that Mary Wells and Aretha Franklin did, and Jerry Wexler got solidly behind Aretha, but the other acts didn't have that sort of champion at the label. [[In fact Wexler once callously said he "couldn't do nothing" with Mary.) Patti and the gals were similarly lost in the shuffle while Aretha climbed the charts — very much the way Hitsville's female acts suffered similar fates while Diane was pushed to the top of the heap. Apparently there was only room at these labels for one queen bee.

You can’t push a square peg through a round hole and while Patti has a magnificent and unique instrument, her voice, IMHO, does not have “radio staple” brandished on it. How on earth is every single female singer ever going to get to the top if there’s only one top spot and all it takes is a push? I keep reading how so and so weren’t pushed when very few here know who got what. What insiders at Atlantic told you that Patti wasn’t worked with? Music, last I heard was an art form and a business and if no one believes enough in a certain singer, maybe there’s a reason for that. Producers generallly could have used whoever they wanted, felt inspired by or thought would hit. Even when hits happen by chance, they are usually followed up with - as in the case of Ross and Aretha and sometimes, rarely, they strike gold. Both were matches made in heaven and both went on to enjoy many hits with various producers after they no longer worked with their launching pads. Martha’s first 5 HDH singles yielded two top tens: #4, #8. Diana’s yielded 3 #1’s, a multi million selling album and industry history. Who would you put your money on? Aretha’s first Atlantic recordings took off like crazy, Patti and Mary’s flopped. Who would you ”push?”
Mary WAS hard to produce. Lord knows 20th Century tried everything they had. She’s gifted, but not easy to sell. She never had a hit after Motown.

Patti had one top ten, a number one smash, in 14 years with 7 labels. Columbia, Warner’s, Atlantic and the others couldn’t get a hit until Epic got her Lady Marmalade- and the follow up didn’t even go top 40. In 12 more years she have her only other top ten - another number one smash. It was a 9 year wait for another top ten R&B single. Many believed in her and many tried, but she needed over 20 years to really get big on records and never matched Ross or Aretha or Gladys’ numbers - despite having One of the most amazing vocal instruments of all time.

You can push all day long, but at some point, the public decides who they like and who they do not…….It’s been years since Aretha and diana have had a hit record, but they are still selling out venues like crazy…… No one is pushing them now……

In short, I believe there is room for more than one queen bee at each label, but true queen bees are very, very, very rare. Motown and Atlantic Would’ve liked nothing more than to have three or four Queen bees on their labels. They tried with Brenda, Martha, Gladys and Tammi was varying degrees of success. Gladys Left Motown with the highest charting album of her career, a gold mega smash Grammy award winning single and full crossover status. That’s a far cry from where she was when she signed. Tammi, had she enjoyed good health, was definitely on her way to stardom - The public loved her voice, they were selling albums way faster than Marvin ever did on his own. Tammi would definitely been another queen bee.

[midnightman]

I have to agree, MM...

And Atlantic DID try their hardest with Mary and Patti. I think Mary was really hard to manage than Patti because unlike Patti, she didn't have the personality or vocal prowess that allowed Patti to make a living without always having big hits.