Quincy Jones implicates Brando and Marvin "got it on"

[midnightman]

And also claims MJ "stole a lot of his songs".

http://www.vulture.com/2018/02/quinc...=sharebutton-t

Since y'all posting semi-OT stuff, it's whatever. But he mentioned Marvin once.

Just... I mean I wouldn't mind if it was true [[because they were both very handsome of course ) but neither Marlon nor Marvin can defend themselves.

Q's literally off his doggone [[no pun intended) rocker!

[RanRan79]

I can't take issue with what was said about Michael. Musical theft- in some form or another- is probably a very common thing in the industry. While what he said about Brando- that he'd screw anything- might be true, I took the names he dropped with a grain of salt. Seems like he might have been throwing names out there. I did take issue with his opinion regarding rap. It didn't make sense to me. But other than that, even with a few "out there" thoughts that Q has, I didn't find him to be any more off his rocker than anyone else.

[midnightman]

That may be true. He ain't as senile as many people his age but he's... wild lmao

I mean I did read further on Marvin's issues with his sexuality in Janis' book but...

I think the big revelation in that book was his attraction to Ryan O'Neal [[I think) and that he considered openly gay Sylvester as a great performer and hugged him when they bumped into each other at Studio 54 in the late '70s [[though there is the Harvey Fuqua connection so I assume Marvin was close to a lot of the Fuqua proteges?). And also he got turned on looking at other men messing with Janis [[Little Richard teas since he did the same thing). And very in touch with his feminine side.

So I can KINDA see it but still, why mention 'em? Q just don't give a doggone [[again no pun intended).

[marv2]

I can't take issue with what was said about Michael. Musical theft- in some form or another- is probably a very common thing in the industry. While what he said about Brando- that he'd screw anything- might be true, I took the names he dropped with a grain of salt. Seems like he might have been throwing names out there. I did take issue with his opinion regarding rap. It didn't make sense to me. But other than that, even with a few "out there" thoughts that Q has, I didn't find him to be any more off his rocker than anyone else.

You can believe this shit, but you find it hard to believe that Stevie would not write songs for Diana Ross? Really?

[smallworld]

I think the big revelation in that book was his attraction to Ryan O'Neal [[I think) and that he considered openly gay Sylvester as a great performer and hugged him when they bumped into each other at Studio 54 in the late '70s

What's revelatory about that? Was Sylvester considered a no talent then?

[RanRan79]

That may be true. He ain't as senile as many people his age but he's... wild lmao

I mean I did read further on Marvin's issues with his sexuality in Janis' book but...

I think the big revelation in that book was his attraction to Ryan O'Neal [[I think) and that he considered openly gay Sylvester as a great performer and hugged him when they bumped into each other at Studio 54 in the late '70s [[though there is the Harvey Fuqua connection so I assume Marvin was close to a lot of the Fuqua proteges?). And also he got turned on looking at other men messing with Janis [[Little Richard teas since he did the same thing). And very in touch with his feminine side.

So I can KINDA see it but still, why mention 'em? Q just don't give a doggone [[again no pun intended).

I haven't read Janis' book, believe it or not. Everything else I had ever read about Marvin suggested that he had some sexuality issues in regards to the cross dressing thing, but I can't for the life of me ever recall reading anything that suggested he was bisexual. [[Might be cause for me to search for my copy of Divided Soul as I haven't read it in YEARS.) But if Janis is telling the truth, then maybe Q was accurate. But I do have a problem with people running their mouths about things after their death that you're pretty certain they'd have an issue with if they could speak. What kind of gets under my skin is that Q said all of that about four dead men [[Brando, Baldwin, Pryor and Gaye) but tried to bypass saying a word about Cosby. That's some punk shit.

[smallworld]

What kind of gets under my skin is that Q said all of that about four dead men [[Brando, Baldwin, Pryor and Gaye) but tried to bypass saying a word about Cosby. That's some punk shit.

But doesn't his quote about the former imply consensual sex? That's entirely different to what's been alleged about the latter, so it doesn't surprise me that he wouldn't speak on it.

[RanRan79]

You can believe this shit, but you find it hard to believe that Stevie would not write songs for Diana Ross? Really?

I've addressed you more thoroughly in the other thread regarding your ridiculous behavior, and I'm debating with myself about continuing it here. But hey, it's Wednesday so why not get you together one more time? The difference between you and I is that you're fuckin crazy and I'm not. Here's how: when you said what you said about Diana, my response was that I had never heard that and I asked where it might be found. For the record I didn't know if the shit was true or not, which is why I said that I had never heard that, as opposed to replying "you lyin muthafucka, quit making shit up". I say that and then you share a link to an old Jet magazine article where Diana says "I've been begging Stevie to write a song for me but he never would" and then I have to eat my words. NEVER!! I am not Diana Ross so I could never say what she has never said. I can only tell you what I've never said. But somehow you took my response to you as something negative and you got nasty. And then turned around and got nasty with me about the same bullshit in a totally unrelated thread. I don't believe you're well in the head but you're our Marv, so I have to put up with you. But come for me and you know how this always plays out.

[RanRan79]

But doesn't his quote about the former imply consensual sex? That's entirely different to what's been alleged abut the latter, so it doesn't surprise me that he wouldn't speak on it.

Nearly everything Quincy talked about was allegations that he was leveling. After all that was said from his lips, he would have a problem discussing what's been alleged from somebody else's? Yeah right. As was pointed out, Cosby is a friend of his and Q wasn't going to talk about that until he was forced to comment on it...to a point. My issue is that if you're bold enough to talk about dead men's business, be bold enough to talk about live men's business. Be all about it or be a punk. Q came off a little punky for my taste.

[midnightman]

What's revelatory about that? Was Sylvester considered a no talent then?

No. But the way David Ritz wrote that biography on Marvin... lol

[Quinn]

I enjoyed the interview very much. Quincy was direct and frank and I wish people would write their life stories this way. I totally believe what was said about Marvin Gaye because of the well known facts about his Father's side of the family. We also know about the eccentricities of Father Gaye and the embarrassment he was to his children. Marvin also secretly liked to dress in drag attire, so I believe Q. As for MJ, his shady side is well known. When Paul Anka told the story of how Mike stole the tape of " This Is It" from the studio?. I'm glad that someone finally spoke truth on the mess that's on the radio today too. Technology has advanced to an all too generous state. It's too easy to rely on and allows music to be created too fast and superficially. No education or skill is required, they don't have to go to music school or get any formal training. Instruments aren't even needed anymore and everyone sounds alike. As a result, people are running to their turntables and record crates at warp speed. All in All I liked it. Great read.

[midnightman]

Nearly everything Quincy talked about was allegations that he was leveling. After all that was said from his lips, he would have a problem discussing what's been alleged from somebody else's? Yeah right. As was pointed out, Cosby is a friend of his and Q wasn't going to talk about that until he was forced to comment on it...to a point. My issue is that if you're bold enough to talk about dead men's business, be bold enough to talk about live men's business. Be all about it or be a punk. Q came off a little punky for my taste.

I agree with this 110%. You gonna implicate Marvin was a closeted bisexual [[and he could've been due to his own and his family's history) but then move quickly when Pill Cosby's name is brought up?!

[midnightman]

I enjoyed the interview very much. Quincy was direct and frank and I wish people would write their life stories this way. I totally believe what was said about Marvin Gaye because of the well known facts about his Father's side of the family. We also know about the eccentricities of Father Gaye and the embarrassment he was to his children. Marvin also secretly liked to dress in drag attire, so I believe Q. As for MJ, his shady side is well known. When Paul Anka told the story of how Mike stole the tape of " This Is It" from the studio?. I'm glad that someone finally spoke truth on the mess that's on the radio today too. Technology has advanced to an all too generous state. It's too easy to rely on and allows music to be created too fast and superficially. No education or skill is required, they don't have to go to music school or get any formal training. Instruments aren't even needed anymore and everyone sounds alike. As a result, people are running to their turntables and record crates at warp speed. All in All I liked it. Great read.

If you saw the Transit Ostend documentary, Freddy Couseart's widow actually showed a picture of Marvin dressed "like a cleaning woman" and said he "wasn't ashamed" of doing so.

[marv2]

I've addressed you more thoroughly in the other thread regarding your ridiculous behavior, and I'm debating with myself about continuing it here. But hey, it's Wednesday so why not get you together one more time? The difference between you and I is that you're fuckin crazy and I'm not. Here's how: when you said what you said about Diana, my response was that I had never heard that and I asked where it might be found. For the record I didn't know if the shit was true or not, which is why I said that I had never heard that, as opposed to replying "you lyin muthafucka, quit making shit up". I say that and then you share a link to an old Jet magazine article where Diana says "I've been begging Stevie to write a song for me but he never would" and then I have to eat my words. NEVER!! I am not Diana Ross so I could never say what she has never said. I can only tell you what I've never said. But somehow you took my response to you as something negative and you got nasty. And then turned around and got nasty with me about the same bullshit in a totally unrelated thread. I don't believe you're well in the head but you're our Marv, so I have to put up with you. But come for me and you know how this always plays out.

I just find it hard to believe that you would acknowledge that you easily find this garbage about Marvin Gaye believable, but the fact that Stevie would not write songs for Ross too hard to believe....amazing!

[kenneth]

I don't know why these folks feel the need to grab a day's worth of Internet headlines and talk this way about those who are no longer here. It's like [[I think it was) Esther Williams or some old movie star like her who said J. Edgar Hoover liked to dress up in women's clothes and once greeted her and her husband for dinner dressed as a woman. No way to prove it [[of course) and no way to prove it didn't happen, which is these gossips' stock in trade.

Unfortunately, in the law, you cannot defame the dead, so you can pretty much say whatever you want about someone who's passed.

It seems that credibility is of little value today, but that's hardly surprising considering our Schmuck-in-Chief lies through his false teeth several times a day and never is held accountable for it by Spineless Paul Ryan and all the rest.

[RanRan79]

I enjoyed the interview very much. Quincy was direct and frank and I wish people would write their life stories this way. I totally believe what was said about Marvin Gaye because of the well known facts about his Father's side of the family. We also know about the eccentricities of Father Gaye and the embarrassment he was to his children. Marvin also secretly liked to dress in drag attire, so I believe Q. As for MJ, his shady side is well known. When Paul Anka told the story of how Mike stole the tape of " This Is It" from the studio?. I'm glad that someone finally spoke truth on the mess that's on the radio today too. Technology has advanced to an all too generous state. It's too easy to rely on and allows music to be created too fast and superficially. No education or skill is required, they don't have to go to music school or get any formal training. Instruments aren't even needed anymore and everyone sounds alike. As a result, people are running to their turntables and record crates at warp speed. All in All I liked it. Great read.

Yes, Q was spot on with today's music. There is some good stuff to be found, for sure, but by and large the creativity of the past is gone.

[RanRan79]

Of course he would, if the latter could get him sued.

Everybody and their mama has come out to talk about Bill Cosby and what they knew or heard. Q aint in anymore danger of being sued than anybody else.

Let's say Josef Fritzl died before his daughter and his children/grandchildren were discovered. Should the abuse he carried out not be spoken about because he wouldn't have liked it? Where is the line drawn?

I'm sorry, but I'm having a hard time figuring out the connection in the equation between Quincy Jones speaking about someone's private, personal business and the Fritzl case where someone was raped, held captive and forced to bear her father's children. If Quincy Jones wanted to speak about the times and the folks he's bent over [[or bent over for) that's one thing, but to discuss someone else's private business that way because they're dead and presumably can't be sued, it's a punk move. That's my issue. If you do to one, do to others. Don't have diarrhea of the mouth when one person's name is brought up and then start respecting privacy when someone else's name is brought up.

[smallworld]

No. But the way David Ritz wrote that biography on Marvin... lol

Are you alluding to the cross dressing thing? Is the Ritz book worth reading? I read the Etta James co-write recently. It's a great read, seemingly low on BS.

[RanRan79]

If you saw the Transit Ostend documentary, Freddy Couseart's widow actually showed a picture of Marvin dressed "like a cleaning woman" and said he "wasn't ashamed" of doing so.

Too many revelations today. I can't handle it!! LOL

[RanRan79]

I just find it hard to believe that you would acknowledge that you easily find this garbage about Marvin Gaye believable, but the fact that Stevie would not write songs for Ross too hard to believe....amazing!

Oh my Marv, I don't know what to do with you Buddy. I never told you I didn't believe the story you told. I said I had never heard that. How do you get from someone never hearing something to someone not believing it? Now truth is that I didn't believe it, even if she said it, because it didn't make sense. For one, we all know the two artists have remained close for some nearly 60 years. For the duration of the 1960s, both Stevie and Diana were under the whim of Berry Gordy. If Diana had wanted Stevie to write her a song since Stevie was 14, with all the power people like you claim she had, why wouldn't Gordy have Stevie write her a song? And why would Stevie refuse to work with her? None of that made sense. Even the point you tried to make about none of the songs from Stevie's Supremes sessions went to Diana Ross seemed out of place since no one had even remotely suggested that something like that had happened. So yes, I found the whole thing hard to believe but not impossible, which is why I asked you for a source. You provided the source, which incidentally didn't back up the spirit of your comment, and that should have been that but you had to get nasty.

As far as what Q is alleging about Marvin Gaye, you should be old enough to know not to put anything past adults. I'm just in my 30s but I've lived long enough to know that you never say what folks aren't out in them streets doing. Marvin is my all time favorite male singer. He has meant so much to my musical life [[my life in general, as some of his songs are attached to great memories for me). But I don't know him like that. So if someone who did know him says he was bumping pee pees with some other dude, who am I to say he's lying? Especially in light of other things Marvin has been known to be into?

[midnightman]

Luther was one of those private people but the way he went about his life, I think it was quite obvious what team he was on...

I'm guessing in a sense Marvin did too. I mean he was one of the few celebrities to openly wear an ear piercing when that action was perceived to be "fey" [[i.e., effeminate). Then again, Marvin was one of those "I live my life in a certain way" types...

EDIT: Apparently Jennifer Pryor has responded and... yeah he and Brando messed around.

[smallworld]

I'm sorry, but I'm having a hard time figuring out the connection in the equation between Quincy Jones speaking about someone's private, personal business and the Fritzl case where someone was raped, held captive and forced to bear her father's children.

You wrote "things after their death that you're pretty certain they'd have an issue with if they could speak". That could included anything, criminal or otherwise. Hence, my Fritzl comment.

I take issue with what I see as the hypocrisy that surrounds what some people deem "private, personal" etc. [[I'm not talking about you, by the way. I don't know you from Adam). Would it be private, personal business if Q had said "Dorothy Dandridge" rather than "Marlon Brando". I suspect not, because Dandridge wouldn't contravene Marvin's image. I'm not all that invested in image.

There were people going in on Patti LaBelle a few weeks ago about Luther Vandross. I couldn't quite understand it but I'm of a different generation. I think some like to say "Ssshhh!" not because they believe a person is lying but because they don't like the truth of what that person is saying. There was a lot of talk about "respecting a person's wishes". But who's to say what that person's wishes really were.

Luther Vandross had cashmere walls. Morever, Luther was photographed with said cashmere walls. Did he not want people to know he was gay? Or did he not want people to discriminate against him because he was gay? There's a distinction between the two, I think.

I don't disagree that Q's comments are indiscreet. But as one of the memes about him goes, he's "crazy like a fox". You consider that cowardly. Fair enough.

[midnightman]

I do think Marvin may have been closeted...

Richard was, to his friends and family, openly bisexual and his eldest son is gay.

We know Baldwin was openly gay.

[TomatoTom123]

Wow, more LOLs, I love it

[PeaceNHarmony]

I had read the interview with Q and decided not to post it here because it makes him seem, oh maybe, insane? Straight men sure can throw a kiki ...

[PeaceNHarmony]

I don't know why these folks feel the need to grab a day's worth of Internet headlines and talk this way about those who are no longer here. It's like [[I think it was) Esther Williams or some old movie star like her who said J. Edgar Hoover liked to dress up in women's clothes and once greeted her and her husband for dinner dressed as a woman. No way to prove it [[of course) and no way to prove it didn't happen, which is these gossips' stock in trade.

Unfortunately, in the law, you cannot defame the dead, so you can pretty much say whatever you want about someone who's passed.

It seems that credibility is of little value today, but that's hardly surprising considering our Schmuck-in-Chief lies through his false teeth several times a day and never is held accountable for it by Spineless Paul Ryan and all the rest.

Last paragraph is a RIGHT???

[midnightman]

I had read the interview with Q and decided not to post it here because it makes him seem, oh maybe, insane? Straight men sure can throw a kiki ...

Braw... you think Quincy is hetero?!

HOO BOY lmao

[kenneth]

Last paragraph is a RIGHT???

I know, I know...I should leave politics out of this entirely. But I feel like I'm in a "safe place" here whereas when I'm around all my Trump supporter friends, I have to watch what I say!

[midnightman]

Yeah and we're gonna stay in that safe place and not mention Pruneface in Chief. LOL

[kenneth]

Yeah and we're gonna stay in that safe place and not mention Pruneface in Chief. LOL

Thanks Midnightman! I swear if I have to look at his face plastered all over the news much longer, then it's likely I won't last until 2020 when we can vote him out!

[midnightman]

Yeah. Just focus on voting him out lol

Watching the news on him can be stressful.

[marv2]

I know, I know...I should leave politics out of this entirely. But I feel like I'm in a "safe place" here whereas when I'm around all my Trump supporter friends, I have to watch what I say!

Nope, there are some Trump supporters on here. I ran into some. But so what? LOL!!!!

[kenneth]

Nope, there are some Trump supporters on here. I ran into some. But so what? LOL!!!!

You're right! I actually like it! LOL

[midnightman]

HEY!

This is about Quincy's old ass.

[Guy]

Several years ago, I met a friend of a friend who SWORE that Marvin Gaye had come on to him in the 70s when this guy would have been in his 20s. Even though he was acquainted with many showbiz folk, I did not believe him and even made fun of him to others, behind his back of course. But now...

[Boogiedown]

Maybe the hesitance is that Bill Cosby might be able to swap stories.

I like Quincy's frank no nonsense dialogue as delivered here . Reminds me of others I think a lot of.

[[as for "safe places" lol! Is that what snowflakes need? Like a sanctuary city.)

[luke]

Very well said smallworld!! [[Why is it so significant that someone dresses in women’s clothes? Who cares? Actually the majority of cross dressers are heterosexual men.). So many stereotypes, so much shame. Hopefully those days are ending.

[jobeterob]

David Ritz’s books are all excellent; read the Aretha Franklin one from last year or so

Yes Marvin probably did a few guys and they did him; I hope he did if that’s what he wanted and wore whatever he wanted to wear

Not so great to be blabbering on dead people but it’s what people want to hear

[midnightman]

Several years ago, I met a friend of a friend who SWORE that Marvin Gaye had come on to him in the 70s when this guy would have been in his 20s. Even though he was acquainted with many showbiz folk, I did not believe him and even made fun of him to others, behind his back of course. But now...

Your friend was telling the truth.

And he's lucky. I wish Marvin would've came on to me haha

"There's nothing wrong with me loving you, giving yourself to me can never be wrong if the love is true."



But yeah simply cross dressing doesn't mean you're gay.

[luke]

It’s called history folks . Lincoln fought the Civil War and often shared a bed with a guy. Eleanor Roosevelt had a girlfriend and greatly helped the UN. Franklin had a girlfriend and started Social Security . Etc etc etc. It’ s interesting and we can learn from people’s human experiences. The times they are a changing. They were human beings with yearnings and needs and struggles like all of us. Hiding all of their humanity doesn’t help.

[kenneth]

Maybe the hesitance is that Bill Cosby might be able to swap stories.

I like Quincy's frank no nonsense dialogue as delivered here . Reminds me of others I think a lot of.

[[as for "safe places" lol! Is that what snowflakes need? Like a sanctuary city.)

What's a snowflake, boogiedown?

[Boogiedown]

Hi kenneth ,

there's a good reading at wiki

"Its meaning has varied, but may include a person who has an inflated sense of their own uniqueness, has an unwarranted sense of entitlement, or is easily offended and unable to deal with opposing opinions."

from:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snowflake_[[slang)

[midnightman]

It’s called history folks . Lincoln fought the Civil War and often shared a bed with a guy. Eleanor Roosevelt had a girlfriend and greatly helped the UN. Franklin had a girlfriend and started Social Security . Etc etc etc. It’ s interesting and we can learn from people’s human experiences. The times they are a changing. They were human beings with yearnings and needs and struggles like all of us. Hiding all of their humanity doesn’t help.

So true, Luke.
That's why I'm actually loving this.
It just makes me feel even badder for Marvin because I feel he was fighting his true self and it showed...

[TheMotownManiac]

I always had the feeling that Marvin was bi......it seemed his speak hinted to it, but I have no idea if he was, I just wanted the artist I loved to be happy and, now, at peace.

[PeaceNHarmony]

David Ritz’s books are all excellent; read the Aretha Franklin one from last year or so

Yes Marvin probably did a few guys and they did him; I hope he did if that’s what he wanted and wore whatever he wanted to wear

Not so great to be blabbering on dead people but it’s what people want to hear

Yes, it's the blathering about dead people to get attention that crosses Q off my list. Though not really a fan of his over-busy production style I always thought [['thought' being past-tense) of him as a gentleman. No more. If various famous people wanted to keep their sexuality a secret, who is he to out them? STFU, Q. Talk about your productions, not your 'conquests' and tea-quotient. Gay/bi/trans persons still get fired-beaten-snubbed by their families-killed; it's not an issue to gain social-media clicks about.

[Albator]

Most of what he says here about MJ, others have said before... Michel Legrand, Manu Dibango come to my mind.
That the Beatles were mediocre soloist is also debated for a long time.
That Brando was an obsessive Bi is also documented. On french tv, about 10 years ago, he said that he went with Leonard Bernstein and Marvin Gaye. In is mouth, it's not an issue.

[RanRan79]

You wrote "things after their death that you're pretty certain they'd have an issue with if they could speak". That could included anything, criminal or otherwise. Hence, my Fritzl comment.

I take issue with what I see as the hypocrisy that surrounds what some people deem "private, personal" etc. [[I'm not talking about you, by the way. I don't know you from Adam). Would it be private, personal business if Q had said "Dorothy Dandridge" rather than "Marlon Brando". I suspect not, because Dandridge wouldn't contravene Marvin's image. I'm not all that invested in image.

There were people going in on Patti LaBelle a few weeks ago about Luther Vandross. I couldn't quite understand it but I'm of a different generation. I think some like to say "Ssshhh!" not because they believe a person is lying but because they don't like the truth of what that person is saying. There was a lot of talk about "respecting a person's wishes". But who's to say what that person's wishes really were.

Luther Vandross had cashmere walls. Morever, Luther was photographed with said cashmere walls. Did he not want people to know he was gay? Or did he not want people to discriminate against him because he was gay? There's a distinction between the two, I think.

I don't disagree that Q's comments are indiscreet. But as one of the memes about him goes, he's "crazy like a fox". You consider that cowardly. Fair enough.

I don't consider Q's comments about the lives of dead folks cowardly. I consider his lack of comments about the private lives of the living to be cowardly in light of his loose lips about the dead. So yes, if Q had said "Brando would screw anything: Dorothy Dandridge, Lena Horne, Ruby Dee..." I would side eye it because the ladies aren't here [[nor Brando) to give their account one way or the other, but it would kind of be a "it is what it is" situation. But if Q had said those things and then been asked about the private life of Diana Ross, who is rumored to have had an interesting sex life, and he chose to suddenly have a filter...Punk move.

It seems to me that you might have confused what my problem was with this whole thing. Yes I do believe the dead should be afforded their privacy, though I understand why some people feel the need to recall things. For example, I understand Mary Wilson's revelation regarding Florence Ballard's rape. I probably wouldn't have revealed that information, but I understand why Mary did. The rape explained so much. But it didn't seem to me like Quincy made his revelations to really explain anything. He said what he said for shock value, under the guise of being "honest", but when first asked to be honest about his living friend he decides to deflect. I guess we can wait to hear further details about what Q knew about Cosby after Dr. Bill goes to that pudding pop in the sky. Can't wait [[said sarcastically).

[RanRan79]

What's a snowflake?

"A flake of snow, especially a feathery ice crystal, typically displaying delicate sixfold symmetry". Any other definition is nonsense.

[thanxal]

"A flake of snow, especially a feathery ice crystal, typically displaying delicate sixfold symmetry". Any other definition is nonsense.

Hey Ran Ran, now listen here... I have a memo. No a BOMBSHELL text, no a Military parade. Look at me, look at me. But you, you’re a snowflake. LOL HEHEHEHEHEHE.

[PeaceNHarmony]

It's particularly unfortunate, especially at this point in the USA's history, to see an accomplished Black man denigrating and gossiping about other Black men, and ones who are dead, no less; falls right into the djt playbook of 'distract the public with trash and repeal their rights while they're not looking'.