Diana Ross, The 5th Dimension and "Love Hangover"

[RanRan79]

I have to say....I never really cared for the fast part of the song. The beginning of DR version I like....it's sultry. I find the disco galloping part very monotonous.

Only in recent years have I started digging the uptempo half of the song. But I've always much preferred the slower part. I can see the appeal of the song as is, but I think she could have had a huge hit with just the slow part extended. She sounds so sexy.

[BayouMotownMan]

Actually part of this story is true.

When Motown issued Diana Ross in 1976, Gordy ordered a remix of I Thought It Took A Little Time as the next single. Since Michael Masser had such a big hit with Mahogany, Gordy usually stuck with a winning producer.

However, the discos quickly jumped on Love Hangover. It became apparent that he chose the wrong single. Then it was discovered that the 5th quickly recorded a copycat. Gordy was too competitive to allow this. Love Hangover was quickly edited and rushed out.

Just as it happened in 1964, Motown issued Baby Love and was holding Come See About Me to follow afterward. But Nella Dodds did a version and it was issued. Gordy rushed out Come See and wound up with two more No. 1 hits. He had the same plan for I Thought and Love Hangover. But interest in the ballad quickly waned and radio simply preferred Hangover.

Diana Ross gave an interview where she chastized the 5th for trying to steal her song. This interview actually got pressed and some copies are out there. I used to have it on a tape.

As Gordy has always done with Diana's competitors, he would sign them to Motown and destroy their careers. Did it to Barbara McNair, Lesley Uggams and Diahann Carroll. The 5th were hungry so they took the Motown contract and Gordy sank them once and for all.

The incident with McLemore and LaRue, I believe it.

[TheMotownManiac]

Barbara McNair, Diahann Carroll and Leslie Uggams were never competition for Diana Ross. Not even an iota. Gordy never sank their careers - how absurd is that? They were not pop stars or record sellers before they came to Motown, and weren’t record sellers AT Motown, and they weren’t AFTER Motown and their careers continued as before they they signed. Carroll got an Oscar nod - and played top clubs with Vic Damone for a decade after Motown - that’s hardly a killed career. None of them were pop stars and were never going to be pop stars. The 5th Dimension wasn’t “competition” to Diana any more than any other act with the low ethic threshold to steal another acts’ song and arrangement. It happens, sure....but you never see quality acts pulling a stunt like that. Nella Dodds? Yes. Streisand, Aretha, Gladys, Donna, Natalie and others all had opportunities to pull this crap and never tried. The 5th’s last records on Bell tanked, they then signed with ABC and went nowhere. Two years after Love Hangover they signed with Motown, released 2 albums that also tanked - the trend began way before Motown and continued after. Gordy destroyed no one’s careers because any act with half a brain who was feeling that way would split like so many acts did. Gladys, J5, Spinners Tops Tempts and others all left for what they hoped were greener pastures. Maybe it works, maybe not, but the career decisions are ultimately decided by the act. If they get bad advice, no one holds a gun to their head to follow it.

[gman]

Perhaps signing Barbara, Diahann, and Leslie was an attempt broaden the labels roster beyond the teen/ young record buying market?...it had been done before. Each of these ladies had a dedicated fan following and were successful live engagement performers, but on a much narrower scale than DR.

[TheMotownManiac]

That’s exactly what I think. He was signing Soupy Sales, Sammy Davis jr, Paul Peterson, Billy Eckstein and countless others hoping to strike a little gold.

While I certainly think he was Diana first in all things, This fable that he was out to destroy careers, to me, is way off base. He insisted Gladys record IIWYW and it wasn’t to kill her career. It wound up being a top ten smash. He was working with Martha in the studio, who he believed in talent-wise, when she was ok to work again. She had barely sold an album in 4 years but there he was in the studio with her, and spending hours mixing what he hoped would hit. Over mixing, yes - but the effort was there. He was hardly trying to kill their careers.

[RanRan79]

While I certainly think he was Diana first in all things, This fable that he was out to destroy careers, to me, is way off base. He insisted Gladys record IIWYW and it wasn’t to kill her career. It wound up being a top ten smash. He was working with Martha in the studio, who he believed in talent-wise, when she was ok to work again. She had barely sold an album in 4 years but there he was in the studio with her, and spending hours mixing what he hoped would hit. Over mixing, yes - but the effort was there. He was hardly trying to kill their careers.

This. The myth of the career killer Gordy just doesn't make any sense. Do I think Gordy has never done some underhanded shit with an artist, of course not. I still suspect that he was one of the many factors that killed Flo Ballard's initial start. Not because he thought she was a threat to the Supremes/Diana Ross or any of that nonsense. But that thing between them was nasty and what I know about people is that they hit their enemies when and where they can. Folks like to talk about something being business not personal, but business turns personal ALL THE TIME. But Gordy had no connection to the ladies Bayou mentions, no real history. Why sign them to kill their careers because they were Ross competition when for every one of those women in question, there were ten others who were "competition", even more so if the other women actually did the same kind of music Diana did. Gordy didn't seem to be on the hunt for every female singer. Again, I'm not buying it.

[BayouMotownMan]

This. The myth of the career killer Gordy just doesn't make any sense. Do I think Gordy has never done some underhanded shit with an artist, of course not. I still suspect that he was one of the many factors that killed Flo Ballard's initial start. Not because he thought she was a threat to the Supremes/Diana Ross or any of that nonsense. But that thing between them was nasty and what I know about people is that they hit their enemies when and where they can. Folks like to talk about something being business not personal, but business turns personal ALL THE TIME. But Gordy had no connection to the ladies Bayou mentions, no real history. Why sign them to kill their careers because they were Ross competition when for every one of those women in question, there were ten others who were "competition", even more so if the other women actually did the same kind of music Diana did. Gordy didn't seem to be on the hunt for every female singer. Again, I'm not buying it.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I spoke with people on Gordy's payroll who distinctly remember Gordy's divide and conquer approach to business. Remember Gordy was a competitive prize fighter and even a pimp at one time. You don't amass the wealth and success he had enjoyed without a streak of ruthlessness. Diahann Carroll was especially vocal about the failure of her lone Motown lp. And why sign a washed up group like the Fifth Dimension if not to punish? He lost interest in Vandellas, Marvelettes and his flagship female group of Supremes when their sales dropped. Barbara Mitchell of High Inergy told me herself that for years she never understood why Gordy kept her in a recording studio for 7 years when her group only had one hit record and no interest in future product. She was told that Gordy liked a catalogue on his artists if ever they found later success on another label, he could release competitive albums off their new success. He did that to the Tops, Spinners, Pips and even Ross

[Albator]

If Berry Gordy was that competitive he would have tried to kill Donna Summer's career and not some cabaret singers.

[BayouMotownMan]

Donna Summer has her own Berry Gordy, but he did capitalize by giving Diana similar material as Donna Summer [[Love Hangover, Lovin, Livin' Givin)

[RanRan79]

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I spoke with people on Gordy's payroll who distinctly remember Gordy's divide and conquer approach to business. Remember Gordy was a competitive prize fighter and even a pimp at one time. You don't amass the wealth and success he had enjoyed without a streak of ruthlessness. Diahann Carroll was especially vocal about the failure of her lone Motown lp. And why sign a washed up group like the Fifth Dimension if not to punish? He lost interest in Vandellas, Marvelettes and his flagship female group of Supremes when their sales dropped. Barbara Mitchell of High Inergy told me herself that for years she never understood why Gordy kept her in a recording studio for 7 years when her group only had one hit record and no interest in future product. She was told that Gordy liked a catalogue on his artists if ever they found later success on another label, he could release competitive albums off their new success. He did that to the Tops, Spinners, Pips and even Ross

Didn't High Inergy have a string of albums and singles? I'm going to assume that Gordy kept her in the studio because he hoped to capitalize on her talent. The group already had one hit. If you want to kill their career, why promote the single in the first place? I get that your thoughts on this subject are a result of your interviews, but what they told you just doesn't add up. Who believed Diahann Carroll or Leslie Uggams could compete with the Queen of Motown? I don't believe Gordy ever thought that, nor Ross, nor anybody else on the planet with ears, except for a delusional moment either Ms. Carroll or Ms. Uggams may have had.

[midnightman]

[BayouMotownMan]

Didn't High Inergy have a string of albums and singles? I'm going to assume that Gordy kept her in the studio because he hoped to capitalize on her talent. The group already had one hit. If you want to kill their career, why promote the single in the first place? I get that your thoughts on this subject are a result of your interviews, but what they told you just doesn't add up. Who believed Diahann Carroll or Leslie Uggams could compete with the Queen of Motown? I don't believe Gordy ever thought that, nor Ross, nor anybody else on the planet with ears, except for a delusional moment either Ms. Carroll or Ms. Uggams may have had.

McNair, Carroll and Uggams competed with Ross for club dates, tv appearances, and Gordy had his eye on a movie career for Ross, so they competed there as well. McNair was in Elvis' last movie in 1969, Uggams had her own TV show around that same time and Carroll was a huge success in Julia in the late 60s...all platforms Gordy was eyeing for Ross. Look at the record. McNair had two lps and several singles that failed. When this happens it's harder to get bookings. Carroll had finished Julia when her lp came out on Motown. It tanked. I don't think she ever got another record deal; if she did it was some obscure label. Uggams hit big with Roots when her lp came out. Her lp bombed. This has an adverse affect on a performer.

In the case of High Inergy, Gordy's interest in them was two fold. First of all, he was not interested in another female group as they were headaches to deal with, and his most successful acts at this time were self contained artists. But, Ross was bucking him and refusing material he had intended for her, one of which was Don't Leave Me This Way, the other You Can't Turn Me Off. Vernessa Mitchell remembered she learned that song and Let Me Get Close To You from their first lp by listening to Ross's vocal on those two tracks, both of which Ross didn't like. Secondly, Mary Wilson was giving Gordy headaches with lawsuits and bad press as she desparately tried to get him to support her groupings of Supremes. When he released High Inergy's debut lp and single he promoted them as the New Supremes. This was his way of letting Wilson know her Supremes were gone. She and hubby Pedro Ferrar immediately filed their first lawsuit against Motown and in that suit they objected to High Inergy being billed as the new Supremes. When Ross bombed with The Wiz, she let Gordy relaunch her solo career and was more cooperative, at least for a while. He signed Mary to a solo contract and promptly dropped her after her debut lp failed. So High Inergy had severed their purpose so he was was finished with them.

[daviddh]

i like Dianas version of LH. it's a classic. great vocal.
I do like the 5th D but , I think their version is ok.
I also remember when Diana released her lp the FORCE BEHIND THE POWER, Motown released her song Waiting In The Wings, but it rarely got played and then I was hearing some other female artist version getting played instead of Dianas.

[TomatoTom123]

Kinda relevant... anyone ever listened to Diahann Carroll’s Motown album? Or Leslie Uggams’ LP? What are they like?Any good? Just after opinions.

[midnightman]

The alternate version from DR s*it on all them other h-words lmao [gay]OKAAAAAAY?![/gay]

[BayouMotownMan]

Kinda relevant... anyone ever listened to Diahann Carroll’s Motown album? Or Leslie Uggams’ LP? What are they like?Any good? Just after opinions.

Carroll's was pretty bad, Uggams maybe a little better. Both were out of touch with the disco trend. McNair's two lps were also rather bland, her voice just didn't fit the Motown sound. These ladies were lounge singers. Uggams had the strongest voice IMHO. Some years ago Universal released a 2 cd set on McNair, her two released albums, an album with Smokey that was never issued plus other vault recordings. Listen to her version of I Know Better. The two Gladys's who recorded this great Whitfield track just sing circles around her.

[midnightman]

Barbara McNair's voice leaves me dry. Can't believe Berry wanted to replace Diana in the Supremes with her [[I think it was Barbara, correct me if I'm wrong).

[Boogiedown]

Only in recent years have I started digging the uptempo half of the song. But I've always much preferred the slower part. I can see the appeal of the song as is, but I think she could have had a huge hit with just the slow part extended. She sounds so sexy.

To be able to appreciate LOVE HANGOVER to its fullest , you would have had to have experienced it via the intended environment it was designed for , a disco dance floor in 1976.

[Boogiedown]

But, Ross was bucking him and refusing material he had intended for her, one of which was Don't Leave Me This Way,

I have never heard of this . Can you provide your source?

added: [[ I see wiki makes this claim but they don't provide a source . Just have never heard this before. [[ and I've been around a long time!))

[midnightman]

I have never heard of this . Can you provide your source?

added: [[ I see wiki makes this claim but they don't provide a source . Just have never heard this before. [[ and I've been around a long time!))

And Wikipedia is notorious for having folks just add things on without sources.

[luke]

Thelma was supposed to get Do you know where you’re going to, right? She still sings it in her shows

[Boogiedown]

The only way to get the disco version is on the promotional 7" single, and that took me some doing to get my paws on a clean copy on vinyl to digitize. So give it a listen. Back in da day, clubs played both versions to change it up.

Yes but this was a HUGE mistake by The Fifth Dimension, to correctly create a longer "disco" version , but then only press it on a 7" single . This just when DJs were abandoning 45 playing altogether, preferring the new 12" format for many reasons , sound improvement particularly .
Motown already had a long disco version to use , it was on Diana's album where some DJs had discovered it. I'm amazed Motown pressed it onto a 12" single and promo'd it to the clubs . One of the few disco things they did right . I guess they wanted to make sure even the djs not willing to buy a copy of the album were playing it.

[Boogiedown]

As Gordy has always done with Diana's competitors, he would sign them to Motown and destroy their careers. Did it to Barbara McNair, Lesley Uggams and Diahann Carroll. The 5th were hungry so they took the Motown contract and Gordy sank them once and for all.

Here's what I've concluded.
As I mentioned in my first post in this thread, Marc Gordon and Hal Davis were working partners from way back , very good friends. When The Fifth Dimension were in big trouble career-wise Hal Davis gave Marc Gordon the green light to run with LOVE HANGOVER [[ see original post for more detail) . The same generosity was not felt by Diana Ross who was not consulted in this song-sharing plan.

Marc Gordon was very upset by the final outcome as he sank a lot of time and money into creating LOVE HANGOVER as a way of selling the reformatted group to a weary ABC. LH embarrassingly tanked and no further recordings resulted with ABC.

I'm sure Hal Davis felt terrible about this. And as time passed and it became apparent that The Fifth Dimension were not recovering , I believe Hal Davis went to bat for his old friend with Berry Gordy, probably explaining the entirety of the situation. [[Hal was a hot property, hot off the heels of DON'T LEAVE ME THIS WAY).

In this case, Berry turns out to be a very nice guy. Otherwise it is very odd to me that Motown would want anything to do with this faded group that had so blatantly stolen from them.

How do I know the closeness between Hal Davis and Marc Gordon persevered through this entire fiasco? Because once signed to Motown, Hal Davis contributed to both of the albums The Fifth Dimension recorded there.

Their first Motown single ,an Ashford and Simpson cover, was produced by Hal Davis:

[midnightman]

Thelma was supposed to get Do you know where you’re going to, right? She still sings it in her shows

Yeah that was her song initially.

But I honestly don't know if I can hear the studio version in her voice. Great singer though.

[Jaap]

Thelma Houston's version was released as single in New Zealand in 1973.

[TheMotownManiac]

[QUOTE=BayouMotownMan;439463]McNair, Carroll and Uggams competed with Ross for club dates, tv appearances, and Gordy had his eye on a movie career for Ross, so they competed there as well. McNair was in Elvis' last movie in 1969, Uggams had her own TV show around that same time and Carroll was a huge success in Julia in the late 60s...all platforms Gordy was eyeing for Ross. Look at the record. McNair had two lps and several singles that failed. When this happens it's harder to get bookings. Carroll had finished Julia when her lp came out on Motown. It tanked. I don't think she ever got another record deal; if she did it was some obscure label. Uggams hit big with Roots when her lp came out. Her lp bombed. This has an adverse affect on a performer.

Your dates are are all wrong.

Ross wasn’t doing club dates after 1972 when Uggams and Carroll were signed - they couldn’t afford her. She only played Caesar’s Palace at reported the highest salary they only paid to Ross and Sinatra.

Uggams album came out and tanked on Motown two years before Roots. All of her records, on 4 labels, before and after Motown, tanked. I saw her in Blues In The Night and she was superb, but she was never, ever a threat to Ross. Her 1969 TV show was a bomb and yanked before the mid season break. It was replaced by Glen Campbell which became a top 20 hit that year. Additionally, if Gordy saw her as a threat, I doubt that he’d allow The Tempts and Stevie, two of his top acts to appear on her show singing their current huge hits.

Elvis’ final film, Change Of Habit was a giant bomb - peaking at #17 on Variety for a measly 4 weeks on the chart. A bomb by any standard. McNair was a supporting player in a cheapie flick and was light years away from what Gordy had in mind for Ross. Mc Nair had success in Canada with a 70s variety show for a few years that was syndicated in some US markets. Even that couldn’t get her a hit record or album.

Carroll was a very talent chanteuse, not a pop star and wasn’t trying to be one. She had several albums on several labels that never did a thing- Her 1974 Motown stinker was no exception. By that time, Ross was light years from wanting a tv show and even with Julia, [[her self proclaimed ‘white negro) it hit big initially but lost its audience quickly and was cancelled shortly into its third season and ended prematurely in March with virtually no syndication value.

All three of of these women were talented, but posed zero ‘threat’ to Ross....ever. The fact that they had no recording career before and after Motown, I believe, proves this. There was nothing at all to gain by signing and causing additional failure in their recording careers. Ditto the fifth dimension. Personally, with so many of his acts gone and in trouble, I think it made sense to try to work with the 5th. He only had 4 acts in 1977 that were selling [[Ross, Marvin, STevie, Commodores) you can’t run a label with only 4 acts. 4.5 if you count Smokey.

[sansradio]

Thelma Houston's version was released as single in New Zealand in 1973.

Thanks for posting. It also plays briefly in Norman, Is That You? starring Redd Foxx and Pearl Bailey [1976].

[captainjames]

This thread is kinda strange for me.....What I am hearing is how dare she release her record as a single.....

[luckyluckyme]

Barbara McNair's voice leaves me dry. Can't believe Berry wanted to replace Diana in the Supremes with her [[I think it was Barbara, correct me if I'm wrong).

Berry Gordy was considering Barbara Randolph for a position in the Supremes, not Barbara McNair.

[midnightman]

Berry Gordy was considering Barbara Randolph for a position in the Supremes, not Barbara McNair.

I know I was getting the Barbaras mixed up. Thanks!

[luckyluckyme]

[Quote] But, Ross was bucking him and refusing material he had intended for her, one of which was Don't Leave Me This Way, [Quote]
[Quote] I have never heard of this . Can you provide your source?[Quote]

In the Diana Ross [[M6-=861S1) Expanded Edition Booklet, George Solomon and Andrew Skurow write
"[[Hal) Davis cut the track [['Don't Leave Me This Way') for Ross- the session tapes have her name across the tape box and session sheet- but it appears she never records vocals. He considers the tune for Motown's newest female signing, Teena Marie, but instead produces it on Thelma Houston, and his choice gives Thelma her only big hit and a Grammy@ award."

[luckyluckyme]

In the "Any Way You Want It" Expanded Edition booklet Thelma Houston recounts the circuitous route by which the song came to be a hit. Suzanne DePasse asks Thelma to consider recording the track if she likes it. After recording it, Thelma takes an acetate to Catch One, an L.A. gay club to test response to it. The club owner, Jewell tells her she has a hit on her hands.
Thelma & Tony Jones [[at Suzanne's insistence) take several tracks to Berry Gordy's Bel Air mansion, saving this song, which they see as the best, for last. Berry Gordy does not see it as having hit potential. Thelma is disappointed, but Suzanne shops the track to newly formed record pools where it wins huge acceptance. In spite of his initial reluctance, Berry Gordy releases it and the rest is history.

[jobeterob]

Oh my Berry was sabotaging Diane’s career way back as early as this

[PeaceNHarmony]

Oh my Berry was sabotaging Diane’s career way back as early as this

Yes! Gordy was sabotaging Ross' career in his down time when he was not sabotaging the career of every other singer on earth in order to promote Ross. Makes sense to me!

[milven]

I love sarcasm and I get my daily dosage every morning by reading SDF

[PeaceNHarmony]

I love sarcasm and I get my daily dosage every morning by reading SDF

What is this ... 'sarcasm' ... of which you speak?

[milven]

It is cheaper than the alternative, right?