Give Me The Reason..HOW could Motown let Michael jackson go ????

[nomis]

I mean you let Michael Jackson go?? was Berry nuts ?? 200.000 people saw the jackson Five at the houston Astrodome..so let them produce a couple of tracks on every LP..whats the big deal? that talent..people knew Michael was special at the time..did Roshkind and Depasse try and talk Berry into letting them stay ??who lets MJ walk away?Was joe such a pain Berry couldnt be bothered? it makes no sense..their sales may have slipped..but that god given gift that Michael possessed..how do you let that slip away?

[nomis]

..and its not like Michael didnt get on with Berry by all accounts there was mutual respect there..only a year after leaving Motown Michael was on the American Music Awards singing his praises..thats not something he had to do..there was affection there for Berry much more than say Marvin had..did he just see a bubblegum group and not the goods they possessed?..Thriller could have been a Motown LP...

[juicefree20]

Nomis:

I think that it was a business decision on both sides.

Remember that one of the primary reasons why The Jacksons left was to be in control of their own musical destinies. Stevie Wonder & Marvin Gaye notwithstanding, it's likely that The Jacksons felt that they wouldn't have had the creative freedom that they wanted, not to mention publishing which is where the real money lies.

In fairness, given the dip in their popularity just before they left Motown, as well as the then-changing musical scene, it's perfectly understandable had Motown believed that The Jacksons had gone about as far as they would go, much like hundreds of other young groups whom preceeded them. Remember also that as Michael grew from cute kid to teenager, the sales for his solo LPs were nothing indicative of the phenomenal success that he would acheive in the future.

Looking back, to be fair, I doubt that anyone could've predicted how huge Michael would become. I would argue that Michael's success was pretty much linked to the advent of the video age, a marketing tool that wasn't yet in place when The Jacksons were at Motown. And I believe that if you were to check the sales figures they might show that the thing that REALLY blew Michael through the stratosphere, was his ridiculous performance on 'Motown 25'. After that show which was seen world-wide, Michael became a steamroller.

I believe that Michael's success was like a perfect storm, in part due to perfect timing, as well as his phenomenal talent. All of the elements & the stars were in perfect alignment & Michael grabbed that sucker & took it all the way to the moon. What Michael did had never been done before, certainly not to the extent that Michael did it.

In 1976, Berry, nor Michael could've possibly imagined the heights that Michael would attain. History shows us that stardom is difficult to achieve once, much less to recapture childhood fame & take it to historical levels.

No one could've predicted that.

[captainjames]

I don't think anyone could have said it better Juice than that. It was so unpredictable and then later Janet took off as well.

[nomis]

good points thank you for replying

[marv2]

The Jackson's also left over monetary disputes, their royalty rates.

[thommg]

I also can't help thinking that Motown was independent and Epic was a conglomerate factored into things. There was no way that Motown could have matched the money and the perks given the Jacksons by Epic. Didn't the same thing happen when Diana Ross decided to move to RCA? Berry couldn't match the numbers of a huge company.

[reese]

I thought Berry was more interested in making movies at this time, and had left a lot of the day to day business to Ewart Abner.

[marv2]

I thought Berry was more interested in making movies at this time, and had left a lot of the day to day business to Ewart Abner.

That is true. Berry did, however become involved in the negotiations to keep the Jacksons at Motown. It was not successful and he kept their name "The Jackson Five"! LOL!!!

[topdiva1]

Jackson and his brothers reportedly left Motown at Joe Jackson"s urging. So that they would not end up totally broke - and that Joe Jackson could regain control over them.

[nomis]

i understand Joe moving the brothers over royalty and writing material disputes - But Ive heard a hundred times from gladys,smokey,Suzanne,Diana etc that they felt Michael was "an old soul in a little body"..people knew that kid was special..maybe his teenage growth spurt had something to do with it-this dismayed Motown executives as he wasnt the cute kid anymore but an awkward adolescent...

[daddyacey]

Simple , the Company ,[[MOTOWN), went one way and the Jacksons went another way. Like Fathers and Sons come to a fork in the road as do Mothers and Daughters do , the time came , it's called growth ,and the resistance to it by the "Establishment" ,[[remember that term and ideology) ,and being the fact that we are talking bout Business , MONEY ,THE ALMIGHTY DOLLAR!!!!, also came into play.
Berry was into something else [[ahem!!), and not as hands on as when he had to deal with Stevie and Marvin ,both of whom stated in actions and product ,"You are not the Boss of ME!!!! , F you , and pulled it off. Those of whom he left in charge just missed the ball. Didn't learn from the past actions. The Jacksons didn't have the support they wanted or the means of which to grow and develop their own ideas , and mature ,so simply ,it was time to go. See ya!!!!!!!!! , and they left , Motown and the "you leave Motown and "you won't be doo-doo" curse ,had long lost its Mojo from the time of the exit of Gladys and The Pips , HDH,[[gasp!!!) and The Tops.
For all of them it all came down to ethier not having the balls to go ahead and leave and using the smarts to use what MOTOWN had provided them thru development ,etc to try to do better money and exposure wise. They had a better chance than say Mary Wells and Flo who left earlier , and didn't do as well ,for one reason or another. Sure ,Joe was out to get more money and or control over his kids ,but he was smart enough to know that his boys were able to do more than what they were getting at Motown ,and he KNEW there were other entities that felt the same way. And by the grace of GOD ,he fell into the right and able hands of a company [[COLUMBIA) ,that at least had the means available on hand to advance ,on the positve side , or F up on the negative side , his boys. And to be truthfull , CBS took a stab in the dark and lucked up on the idea to give them to Gamble and Huff to produce ,which CBS lucked up on making a deal with previously. CBS had at the time was looking to tap into the Black Music market in a big way ,but THAT is a whole nother story. The Jackson 5 ownership trick he pulled didn't work like the Supremes trick he did on Mary. Jacksons was the Jacksons by then ,be it Jacksons or Jackson 6 ,7,or 8. He had already built up the IMAGE of them ,as the last big hurrah for his fast becoming out of control Company and he had no control of the family name.

[soulster]

I also can't help thinking that Motown was independent and Epic was a conglomerate factored into things. There was no way that Motown could have matched the money and the perks given the Jacksons by Epic. Didn't the same thing happen when Diana Ross decided to move to RCA? Berry couldn't match the numbers of a huge company.

Ross left Motown for the basically same reasons The Jacksons, Gladys Knight & The Pips, and the Four Tops left: creative control. In a lot of ways, Motown was still trying to cling to the business model that made them great in the 60s, but the business had long changed since. Starting in the late 60s, it was all about people doing their own thing.

[miss_lish]

I think y'all are missing Nomis's point for this thread; we all know why they left; Nomis asked, "How could they allow it, considering Michael's talent and uniqueness." Let me give it a shot Nomis. Berry knew Michael was talented and unique; however, perhaps his hands were full spearheading Miss Ross's career, and he was too distracted or simply not interested in developing Michael in the say way he had Miss Ross. It would have been difficult, most likely impossible to give the same amount of attention to each, sooooo, out came the strong arm. [[When did The Jacksons leave Motown; what year?) I have no doubt he was well aware of Michael's uniqueness and musicianship. Many times, I think Gordy's negative attempts to thwart and control his artists did him more harm than good; especially towards the winding down years of Motown.

[topdiva1]

Here's the answer - The Jacksons all except Jermaine DID NOT WANT TO STAY AT BERRY GORDY'S MOTOWN, SO THEY LEFT - REALLY QUITE SIMPLE.


GORDY IN HIS ANGER KEEP THE NAME TO RUIN THEM - AND EVEN THAT FAILED.

VERY NASTY SITUATION - ROSS TRIED TO HELP = BUT MIKE APPEARS NOT TO HAVE BEEN A BIG FOOL AS HER TO STAY THERE.

SIMPLE - DO THE MATH.

[marxthespot_]

By the mid 1970s, Berry Gordy's main focus was on Diana Ross, making films, and developing that part of Motown. Plus, I think that the father Joe Jackson wanted more money and more attention on the Jacksons from Motown. He knew his kids were talented enough to eventually write and produce their own material. That wasn't going to happen at Motown.

[topdiva1]

By the mid 1970s, Berry Gordy's main focus was on Diana Ross, making films, and developing that part of Motown. Plus, I think that the father Joe Jackson wanted more money and more attention on the Jacksons from Motown. He knew his kids were talented enough to eventually write and produce their own material. That wasn't going to happen at Motown.

Right Right and Right on all points.

[miss_lish]

Yes, again, Nomis's question was how could Gordy be so short-sighted in his vision when it came to Michael. Again, WE ALL KNOW WHY THEY LEFT. Nomis wasn't asking about the facts; instead he is incredulous that Gordy allowed a major opportunity to escape his grasp. That was Nomis intent in starting this thread. He can't believe Gordy allowed Michael to get away from him. Soooooooooo, more to the point, what was it about Gordy, that he didn't attempt to hang on to Michael at all costs? Of course, none of us can know what Gordy's thought processes were; however, Nomis is asking what the membership THINKS could have caused such an oversight on Gordy's part.

[soulster]

I think y'all are missing Nomis's point for this thread; we all know why they left; Nomis asked, "How could they allow it, considering Michael's talent and uniqueness."

Allow it? They didn't have much choice. If the contract was up, there wasn't a damn thing Motown could do about it. If i'm not mistaken, the brothers had a five-year contract.

[miss_lish]

Lord. I give up. Y'all enjoy this thread.

[soulster]

Miss _lish:

Your question has been more than answered. What more do you want? Repetitive, sympathetic rantings on how it could happen? Get all emotional about something that happened 35 years ago? In this cut-throat business, it doesn't matter how talented you may be. If you can't back it up with results [[hits), you aren't worth any more than the next guy. It doesn't matter who's fault it is. I know y'all love Motown, but in this case, Motown screwed up.

Remember that by 1975 the Jackson brothers, including the ones who also had solo careers at the label, were no longer getting hits. Motown refused to let them do what they wanted, and had trouble trying to market them as they got older. They also had legal disputes with the company. There was no way Motown could have kept them unless they gave the brothers what they wanted, and they weren't prepared to do that. It also would have co$t them, and Motown was always watching the bottom line. In that respect, they fared a lot better than a lot of companies that spent beyond their means and went bankrupt. Stax and Casablanca come to mind. Of course, like other companies, Motown was often accused of "creative" bookkeeping.

The brothers wanted big time fame. they wanted to be like The Isley Brothers and earth, Wind & Fire, and headline stadiums. They wanted to play rock and funk. They wanted respect instead of being seen as little teen idols. They didn't feel Motown could deliver. It took them a couple of years at CBS too, but they eventually got what they wanted. If they had stayed at Motoen, they never would have gotten where they are today. Everything happens for a reason.

It's all about power, money, and control. Like I said before, Motown was having a hard time trying to change their business model in the 70s. CBS won, Gordy lost. Obviously, the Jackson 5 in 1975 was not seen as important as, say, Stevie Wonder.

Juicefree is right. At that time, no one could have seen it coming. Even in 1979, the executives at Epic Records had serious misgivings about Quincy Jones producing Michael. They saw Quincy as a jazz artist.

[tomato tom]

Jay Lasker, who ran MOTOWN day to day at the time, refused to invest in videos, that were then just in their infacy, as was MTV. HE obviously did not see the BIG picture coming where video and MTV exposure would, could sell ZILLIONS of records. Just thought I would throw this in the mix...Paulo xxx

[soulster]

Jay Lasker, who ran MOTOWN day to day at the time, refused to invest in videos, that were then just in their infacy, as was MTV. HE obviously did not see the BIG picture coming where video and MTV exposure would, could sell ZILLIONS of records. Just thought I would throw this in the mix...Paulo xxx

Correction: MTV wasn't a reality until 1981. We're talking 1975. And, speaking of MTV, Black artists had trouble getting on it. Maybe a video here or there, but it wasn't soul music, and it took people like Rick James to raise a stink about it. It wasn't until 1983 that MTV stared playing videos by Black artists. Before then, MTV founder Bob Pittman made the infamous comment that white kids in suburbs didn't want to see black faces on TV.. Call it racist or something else, but it was comments like those, and the CBS's threat that they would pull all of CBS's acts off the channel unless they played Michael Jackson's "Billie Jean" in 1983.

[tomato tom]

Thanks soulster for the correction. I DO remember Rick James complaining about this.I do, however remember Jay Lasker refusing to invest money in the then new idiom of promotional vidieos. I think the first Motown video I saw on MTV was Rick & Smokey. Thanks for the info. Must be getting old.The years tend to blend together to easily these days. Paulo xxxx

[soulster]

Thanks soulster for the correction. I DO remember Rick James complaining about this.I do, however remember Jay Lasker refusing to invest money in the then new idiom of promotional vidieos. I think the first Motown video I saw on MTV was Rick & Smokey. Thanks for the info. Must be getting old.The years tend to blend together to easily these days. Paulo xxxx

In those days, R&B artists had to pony up their own money to help fund their music videos. Needless to say, Black artists, or artists who did R&B music, usually just didn't have it. Record label budgets for R&B artists in the early 80s was bad enough after the disco backlash.

Rick James had a video for his hit "Super Freak" in 1982, when the issue started coming up. MTV wouldn't play the video, despite the fact that it was a pop top 10 single, and it was new wave music. Funny thing is, MTV did play Prince videos late in the year, notably "1999" and "Little Red Corvette". That couldn't have helped the growing feud between James and the Purple One!

If one wanted to see videos of R&B music back then, you had to watch "Night Flight", or BET, or some other video show.

[marv2]

Simple , the Company ,[[MOTOWN), went one way and the Jacksons went another way. Like Fathers and Sons come to a fork in the road as do Mothers and Daughters do , the time came , it's called growth ,and the resistance to it by the "Establishment" ,[[remember that term and ideology) ,and being the fact that we are talking bout Business , MONEY ,THE ALMIGHTY DOLLAR!!!!, also came into play.
Berry was into something else [[ahem!!), and not as hands on as when he had to deal with Stevie and Marvin ,both of whom stated in actions and product ,"You are not the Boss of ME!!!! , F you , and pulled it off. Those of whom he left in charge just missed the ball. Didn't learn from the past actions. The Jacksons didn't have the support they wanted or the means of which to grow and develop their own ideas , and mature ,so simply ,it was time to go. See ya!!!!!!!!! , and they left , Motown and the "you leave Motown and "you won't be doo-doo" curse ,had long lost its Mojo from the time of the exit of Gladys and The Pips , HDH,[[gasp!!!) and The Tops.
For all of them it all came down to ethier not having the balls to go ahead and leave and using the smarts to use what MOTOWN had provided them thru development ,etc to try to do better money and exposure wise. They had a better chance than say Mary Wells and Flo who left earlier , and didn't do as well ,for one reason or another. Sure ,Joe was out to get more money and or control over his kids ,but he was smart enough to know that his boys were able to do more than what they were getting at Motown ,and he KNEW there were other entities that felt the same way. And by the grace of GOD ,he fell into the right and able hands of a company [[COLUMBIA) ,that at least had the means available on hand to advance ,on the positve side , or F up on the negative side , his boys. And to be truthfull , CBS took a stab in the dark and lucked up on the idea to give them to Gamble and Huff to produce ,which CBS lucked up on making a deal with previously. CBS had at the time was looking to tap into the Black Music market in a big way ,but THAT is a whole nother story. The Jackson 5 ownership trick he pulled didn't work like the Supremes trick he did on Mary. Jacksons was the Jacksons by then ,be it Jacksons or Jackson 6 ,7,or 8. He had already built up the IMAGE of them ,as the last big hurrah for his fast becoming out of control Company and he had no control of the family name.

There you go Daddy! There is nothing else to be done. You said all frankly in that post! Thank you.......

[smark21]

Norris, maybe because in the end picking and choosing and then retaining talent in show business is a crap shoot. And all the record companies are [[or perhaps were would be a better word choice) there to make money, not collect the best talent. Motown and Berry gambled that like most child/family acts, the Jacksons would fade away and not make the transition to adulthood. That's usually the case with most child acts.

[nomis]

thank you for your posts guys..

[soulster]

About the major record companies tapping into the soul market:

Back in 1968, the labels commissioned Harvard Institute to do a in-depth study of R&B music, and made recommendations of how to tap into the market. Before then, the major labels [[pretty much Capitol and CBS) had pretty much ignored R&B, or were clueless about how to get into the market. It was in the early 70s when most notably CBS decided to take the plunge. One of their major coups was giving Gamble & Huff a label deal with virtually complete autonomy. They also gave the Isley Brothers a distribution deal for their T-Neck label after their contract with the independent Buddah label ran out. They also made a distribution deal with Jim Stewart's Stax Records in 1973, but that is whole 'nother story. Clive Davis, who was in charge of CBS at the time, signed artists like Earth, Wind & Fire to the roster, and nurtured them. They acquired the Stax artist roster after that company went bankrupt, which included The Emotions and Johnnie Taylor. And, they signed The Jackson brothers to their Epic label in 1976. Fantasy acquired the Stax tapes from CBS.

During this time, CBS even considered buying Motown, but Harvard advised against it.

Capitol records had signed several R&B artists in the early 70s, but marketed them as pop artists. It worked quite well, but Capitol still didn't have much of a hold on the market, so they hired Larkin Arnold, who did something that was quite unpopular at the time: further separated the R&B market from the pop market. He even color-coded the labels to designate between pop [[White) artists from soul [[Black) artists. This is why the first Natalie Cole and Tavares albums had the orange label, and subsequent ones until 1980 had red labels.

In the late 60s, Atlantic, a company that was doing the opposite, trying to tap into the rock market, joined forces with Warner Brothers and Elektra to become a conglomerate, which made that family of labels majors. Atlantic had always been an indie label that was a Black music label. Before they went corporate, the artists somewhat enjoyed the same relationship with the management as they did at Motown and Stax. After the formation of WEA, the Black artists were regulated to second-tier status under superstar bands like Crosby, Stills, Nash & Young, Led Zepelin, and The Rolling Stones. In the past, Atlantic had pop artists like Sonny & Cher, Bobby Darin, and The Rascals, but the company still emphasized R&B as the foundation. That changed in 1966, when Ahmet Ertegun, co-founder of the company, decided he wanted to cash in on the emerging rock market. Jerry Wexler wanted to stay true to R&B. He continued to nurture and produce Aretha Franklin and Wilson Pickett. After Wexler withdrew from the business in the mid-70s, Ertegun, thought he was busy partying with the Stones, still kept his hand on the R&B market, signing and nurturing artist like Gwen McCrae, Ben E. King, Average White Band, & Chic.

In 1968, when Atlantic sold to the Kenny Company, which held Warner Brothers at the time, Stax's easy distribution relationship with Atlantic came to an end. Problem: when Wexler did the contract with Jim Stewart in 1959, there was language that stated that all masters produced under the arrangement belonged to Atlantic. Not only that, Sam & Dave were always signed to Atlantic, although their records came out on the Stax label. This is why Atlantic owns the bulk of the 60s Stax masters, and the rest is now owned by Fantasy. So, Atlantic never had a problem being into the R&B market. Capitol [[EMI) managed with R&B under Arnold, and CBS enjoyed wild success with their R&B artists and distribution deals.

Universal [[MCA, UNI, Decca) never had much impact on R&B music in the 70s, as the company was into mainly country music. They even had a deal with AWB, but didn't understand R&B music. So, they let them go...to Atlantic. They were too busy with Olivia Newton John, Conway Twitty, Tanya Tucker, and a superstar named Elton John. It wasn't until 1976 that they had a hit with the "Car Wash" soundtrack. But, they didn't sign Rose Royce. They didn't get into R&B until around 1980, probably influenced by the bought the independent ABC Records, which did have a sizable R&B roster including Rufus and Chaka Khan, The Floaters, Ron Banks & The Dramatics, along with Steely Dan and The Crusaders.

Warner Brothers didn't get into R&B until 1976. They were like Atlantic, started out as an independent company that went corporate. But, they did sign Candi Station, George Benson, First Class, Earth Wind & Fire, and Funkadelic, which included Larry Graham. They actually signed EWF in the early 70s, but lost them to CBS in 1973.

Elektra had never released an R&B record until 1979. Before that, they were folk and pop/rock. In 1979, they went disco and signed a group called Five Special, along with Pink Lady. The releases didn't go anywhere, but they entered a distribution deal with Richard Perry's Planet Label which had the Pointer Sisters as it's only artist. The Pointer Sisters came from Blue Thumb Records, which had a deal with ABC until they crumbled in 1979. Elektra was into jazz, as the founder Jac Holtzman was a big jazz fan. So, they also signed a young prodigy in the late 70s named Patrice Rushen. Around this time, they also signed another young prodigy, one that would give them great success...and fits, and would help alter music: Prince.

Getting back to what led me on this tangent is that the only majors that made any real effort in the R&B market was CBS, Elektra, Warner Brothers, and to a lesser degree, Capitol. MCA was sort of dragged into it.

Man, did I go off on a tangent! Oh well...

[midnightman]

Yeah the Jacksons wanted to express themselves musically [[especially Michael) and Joe wanted the right to manage the group [[which explains why mid-way through the tail end of the Jackson 5's Motown contract he made up this scheme to have the entire family perform in Vegas). The Jacksons had two fruitful years in Philadelphia International but even that got to be too much like Motown and it wasn't until they were almost dropped from CBS that Michael and Joe made the move to go to Epic in 1978 and that's when they finally had the means [[thanks to touring money and money from their original CBS contract) to finally do their own thing and that's when Destiny came into place becoming their first platinum album. Of course Michael used his thinking powers to become a solo mega-star starting with Off the Wall but as some have said no one could've predicted that Michael's Thriller and the actions used to promote it would be as big as they got.

Simple: Berry Gordy just didn't know what to do with the changing times. By the early 1970s he was already losing control of the artists he had on the label [[Marvin & Stevie basically telling him to "kiss it"). He left most of the musical operations to Ebart [[sp?) and Smokey [[still vice president) but they didn't really do much to build new acts with few exceptions [[Switch, DeBarge, Rick James, Teena Marie, etc).

Motown was already a shell of its former self when the Jacksons left in 1975.

[soulster]

Yeah the Jacksons wanted to express themselves musically [[especially Michael) and Joe wanted the right to manage the group [[which explains why mid-way through the tail end of the Jackson 5's Motown contract he made up this scheme to have the entire family perform in Vegas). The Jacksons had two fruitful years in Philadelphia International but even that got to be too much like Motown and it wasn't until they were almost dropped from CBS that Michael and Joe made the move to go to Epic in 1978 and that's when they finally had the means [[thanks to touring money and money from their original CBS contract) to finally do their own thing and that's when Destiny came into place becoming their first platinum album. Of course Michael used his thinking powers to become a solo mega-star starting with Off the Wall but as some have said no one could've predicted that Michael's Thriller and the actions used to promote it would be as big as they got.

Simple: Berry Gordy just didn't know what to do with the changing times. By the early 1970s he was already losing control of the artists he had on the label [[Marvin & Stevie basically telling him to "kiss it"). He left most of the musical operations to Ebart [[sp?) and Smokey [[still vice president) but they didn't really do much to build new acts with few exceptions [[Switch, DeBarge, Rick James, Teena Marie, etc).

Motown was already a shell of its former self when the Jacksons left in 1975.

Unless i'm mistaken, they were always signed to Epic from 1976. The CBS executives paired them with Gamble & Huff because, like Motown, they didn't trust the brothers to produce themselves. That's why they had both logos on the record label. They were actually signed to Epic.

And, Michael was pretty much pushed to go solo again at first, but he wanted to see what he could do without his brothers since he was blossoming as a songwriter. The collaboration with Quincy almost didn't happen.

[midnightman]

^ No they were signed to Philadelphia International/CBS initially. It's kinda like Patti LaBelle, she was initially signed to Epic but was transferred to Philadelphia International in the early 1980s.

[midnightman]

I guess it was a hybrid of different labels [[Epic/Philadelphia International/CBS). It was after 1978 that they were just assigned to Epic and that's when the change started to happen. It's kinda confusing.

[marv2]

I guess it was a hybrid of different labels [[Epic/Philadelphia International/CBS). It was after 1978 that they were just assigned to Epic and that's when the change started to happen. It's kinda confusing.

I believe Midnightman, you have the most accurate scenario here.

[midnightman]

^ I figured I did because it wouldn't make sense for them to sign with Epic RIGHT AWAY if they weren't really associated with them first hand. It was PIR/CBS, then they switched to Epic due to Michael and Joe raising a stink about them getting more publishing.

[daddyacey]

soulster: Aww Shucks, you went there ,on point .
Michael was the focal point all along ,from the Motown period up till and after the break with them. The marriage of Jermaine and Hazel was an attempt to join the Jackson 5 to the Gordy empire through blood and money. That didn't work cause the Jackson Bros had been through hell and high water all of thier young teenage lives. Yes ,Michael knew that he was the glue that held that group together ,but the company was dealing with 5 teenage brothers that were maturing into manhood. They tried to split them up under the guise of those Michael albums like Ben and the Jermaine album and the Jackie album ,but that didn't work. The same tactic of the industry of spliting a group up that made The Impressions ,Jerry Butler and The Impressions , Ben E King and The Drifters , Diana Ross and The Supremes , just didn't work with them. Michael knew he was important to his brothers ,but he was loyal to them at that time ,because of how far they had come. Berry worked on the weak link which was Jermaine , but only caused a rift between them ,because they had grown together and the bond was still strong between the rest ot them. The move to Epic/ PIR only gave them the choice to grow or sink ,together. In a painfull move to maturity ,in a vote 4 to one ,they choose to move onward and gain at least some say in what they wanted to do. Motown's mistake was that they underestimated what made Michael the focal point of The Jackson 5 ,and counted on his cuteness and mature aura. The same way he sat in the wings and studied J.B ,Jackie Wilson and Etta James. The same way he sat with Stevie and Smokey in sessions ,learning the mechanics of writing and recording. They blew it off as this kid just being in the way. They fuxk up. Never underestimate the knowledge of a child that watches and learns. The move to CBS/PIR gave the brothers as a unit ,lead by Michael to a degree ,to develope the feeling of independence ,not given them at MOTOWN. The first two albums at PIR shoed them that the could be sucessful under production other that Motown ,and could produce themselves, as a collective ,led by Michael ,and showed Michael that he was indeed a major force in the "Jacksons" as they now were known. He had the confiedence in the fact that he had his own ideas as opposed to being just the cute front man in an ensamble. That's when the voices verified what the younger Michael had known all along. Thats what instead of just separating Michael from his brothers as a cute front man as what was done at Motown , to the fact that he had his own ideas at EPIC ,led to the split. The whispers of ,you don't need those others ,even if they are family ,riding on your coatails. cause you can do it on your own. And the fact that they were grown men at this point and it was all about the money. His brothers were just coasting ,and holding him back. Motown did not let them or Michael develop to that point ,so they had no idea of what could be. Michael was able to move on because HE ,was given the opportunity to move on ,with the budget and means to move on ,but without his brothers ,and at the time they were not teenage brothers with that bond anymore. It's a sad fact but true. At some point in life ,the fact that you come from the same womb ,makes less of a difference ,when it comes to money.

[topdiva1]

Remember - that there was no love lost between Joe Jackson and Berry Gordy. In truth they could not stand each other. Both being the same power hungry controlling bossy types.

[soulster]

Daddy,

When I said Michael had to be pushed to go it alone at Epic, I meant that initial hesitation he reportedly had. You know how it is when you are ready to make that move, but you are stuck between what you want and loyalty? After a point, the brothers resented it, and resented the fact they they needed him. You're also right about Jermaine. He was a weak link. He was always in Michael's shadow. He had the talent and the looks. Staying at Motown meant he could get from under Michael and show his independence from his brothers, and make a name for himself. It just never really worked out for him because of his brother still bested him.

[nomis]

the deal with Epic was just a reasonable one -there wasnt millions in advances it was the clause to let the brothers write and produce that appealed to them this is something Berry could have easily matched and yet he seemed to want his top artists to stay on a pittance- seeing as Michael went on to move practically a Billion albums this was not Berrys greatest move...

[midnightman]

Berry was still thinking in terms of the assembly line. He didn't like anyone who actually had a mind of their own...and used it.

[soulster]

Berry was still thinking in terms of the assembly line. He didn't like anyone who actually had a mind of their own...and used it.

Everyone is blaming Barry for it all, but he had several people in power positions that were also calling the shots.

[topdiva1]

the deal with Epic was just a reasonable one -there wasnt millions in advances it was the clause to let the brothers write and produce that appealed to them this is something Berry could have easily matched and yet he seemed to want his top artists to stay on a pittance- seeing as Michael went on to move practically a Billion albums this was not Berrys greatest move...

Once again Gordy was outdone by his oqn need to control and his belief that his artisit were dedicated and transfixed by his Motown Corporation.

His cheif darlings of the day Ross and MJ proved him wrong.

[midnightman]

Everyone is blaming Barry for it all, but he had several people in power positions that were also calling the shots.

Even if Berry wasn't any longer holding the puppet strings on his artists, he tried to make sure whoever was in charge of the musical department keep the Jacksons on a leash. Michael and 'em saw through it and bolted.

[soulster]

Yup! It's all history, and Michael's gone now. Motown has long been sold, so it's time to let it go.

[jobeterob]

According to newly released legal documents, Michael Jackson’s estate has made $310 million since his death in 2009. According to these same documents Michael was over $400 million in debt. Already almost $160 million has been re-paid to his debtors