No Vandellas solos at all?

**luke** · 12-31-2017, 12:46 AM

Ive always wondered if there has ever been even a few words sung solo by any of the Vandellas, other than Martha. Have three been? Many members of Motown groups got at least some solo opportunitites but apparently not the Vandellas. I wonder why.

**gman** · 12-31-2017, 12:56 AM

I know Lois cut a few solo tracks for Ian Levine's Motorcity project.
But I believe your question concerns the groups time while on Gordy.

**Quinn** · 12-31-2017, 12:57 AM

Originally Posted by luke

Ive always wondered if there has ever been even a few words sung solo by any of the Vandellas, other than Martha. Have three been? Many members of Motown groups got at least some solo opportunitites but apparently not the Vandellas. I wonder why.

Yes,I believe it was only once and in the very early days. At one point there were four Vandellas.Gloria Jean Williamson,who left before they could hit the big time sang lead on a 45."You'll Never Cherish a Love So True[[till you lose it)" b/w "There He Is [[at my door). It was released under the name The Vells. This is the only time I know of that Martha Reeves didn't sing lead on their records.

**marv2** · 12-31-2017, 01:29 AM

Martha said something to the effect that they were not a group or it was her group.

**bradsupremes** · 12-31-2017, 02:07 AM

Originally Posted by marv2

Martha said something to the effect that they were not a group or it was her group.

I never understood Martha's view of this. Even today, Martha has some strange perspective that she's essentially the only one that mattered because it wasn't really about the group. I feel Martha always wanted to be a solo artist, but never had the confidence so she relied on a group.

As much flak people give Diana for being selfish and wanting to hog the spotlight, she still viewed herself as a member of a group. We heard solos or brief vocal spots from Mary & Cindy even up to Diana's departure. In the Farewell show, Mary had two solos!

Does anyone think Martha would have shared the spotlight to allow Roz, Betty or Lois have a chance to sing lead? It goes back to where Martha viewed herself and the Vandellas. To Martha, the Vandellas were background vocalists. There was no reason as to why they should sing lead. I heard stories that even today Martha refuses to won't allow her sisters to sign anything unless she signs it first, etc.

**reese** · 12-31-2017, 09:55 AM

Originally Posted by bradsupremes

I never understood Martha's view of this. Even today, Martha has some strange perspective that she's essentially the only one that mattered because it wasn't really about the group. I feel Martha always wanted to be a solo artist, but never had the confidence so she relied on a group.

As much flak people give Diana for being selfish and wanting to hog the spotlight, she still viewed herself as a member of a group. We heard solos or brief vocal spots from Mary & Cindy even up to Diana's departure. In the Farewell show, Mary had two solos!

Does anyone think Martha would have shared the spotlight to allow Roz, Betty or Lois have a chance to sing lead? It goes back to where Martha viewed herself and the Vandellas. To Martha, the Vandellas were background vocalists. There was no reason as to why they should sing lead. I heard stories that even today Martha refuses to won't allow her sisters to sign anything unless she signs it first, etc.

From what I've read in various books, interviews, and liner notes, the Del-Phis [[the group with Gloria, Rosalind, Annette, and Martha) had broken up and Martha was working as a solo under the name, Martha Lavalle. This was when Mickey Stevenson saw her and gave her a card to come to Motown. Instead of getting an audition, she became the A&R secretary.

The girls only got back together when background singers were needed for Marvin Gaye and Martha called in her old group mates to do it. Somewhere in this same period, to satisfy union rules, Martha stepped in for Mary Wells on I'LL HAVE TO LET HIM GO and impressed Berry. After that, Berry offered them a contract to which Martha was very enthusiastic, but she wrote that the other girls said they would consider it. Even though they had recorded two sides with Gloria as lead, she quit at that point, and the remaining three signed. Berry put Martha's name in the group in case one of the other girls quit.

I suppose Martha would have been just as happy to be a solo artist if Motown would have given her an audition and a contract instead of the A&R secretary position. I do recall an interview where she said having the Vandellas was more of a need of hers in needing companionship on the road as opposed to needing serious background singers.

**bradsupremes** · 12-31-2017, 10:35 AM

I don’t believe the Vandellas became contractual to Martha until Lois stepped in which is why it confuses me how Martha could have such control to have Betty and later Roz fired. Wouldn’t that be something Motown/Gordy be in control of? Diana didn’t have the power to tell Motown she wanted Florence fired, but rather took a group meeting/decision with Gordy.

Martha certainly goes hot and cold in regards to her relationship with the Vandellas. Today I think things are rather cold between Martha and Roz & Annette especially due to Roz & Annette touring as the Original Vandellas.

**midnightman** · 03-08-2018, 11:33 AM

Originally Posted by Quinn

Yes,I believe it was only once and in the very early days. At one point there were four Vandellas.Gloria Jean Williamson,who left before they could hit the big time sang lead on a 45."You'll Never Cherish a Love So True[[till you lose it)" b/w "There He Is [[at my door). It was released under the name The Vells. This is the only time I know of that Martha Reeves didn't sing lead on their records.

Well Gloria was the original lead singer when they were The Vells before she left and Martha took her place and then it became Martha & The Vandellas... there are two recordings of There He Is, one with Gloria and one that Martha re-recorded a couple years later.

When the group started in 1957, it was Gloria, Roz and Annette. Martha didn't join them until 1960 and before then she was trying to become a soloist. When the group started doing background vocals for Marvin, Gloria was with 'em. Once they signed with Motown's Gordy imprint, Gloria left and it became Martha, Roz and Annette until 1964 when Betty Kelly replaced Annette.

**marv2** · 12-31-2017, 01:28 AM

Seems like I remember Roz doing something.

**Philles/Motown Gary** · 12-31-2017, 02:36 AM

I never got the impression that Martha was selfish nor was she trying to hog the spotlight in any way at all. She revealed in her book, "Dancing In The Street: Confessions Of A Motown Diva", that, unlike the other Motown group members who were under contract to Motown itself, the Vandellas were under contract to her. It was surprising, for sure, but there was nothing negative implied regarding any of The Vandellas. In fact, Martha spoke highly of each and every Vandella member until internal troubles within the group flared up, which usually happened within all groups from time to time -- not just Motown. I may be wrong, but in the 50+ years that I've been loving Martha & The Vandellas and Motown, I've never perceived Martha as being anything more than one of Motown's finest singers who had the courage to stand up to Berry when she felt that injustice had been done regarding royalties or the like.

**Jimi LaLumia** · 12-31-2017, 06:34 AM

Gordy didn't like groups; don't forget he wanted Levi's name out in front of the Four Tops as well, but Levi said no; Gordy liked show biz type figures [[Doris Day! Jackie Wilson! ) but in the 60's, groups were 'in', solo stars were not, so he masked his stars in groups, Smokey and the Miracles, Gladys & the Pips, Michael & The Jacksons,Martha & the Vandellas, Diana and the Supremes, until those solo stars could be liberated from 'group' bondage [[which Martha was happy to do when she signed with MCA), which is why all the endless nonsense about Ross is so ridiculous but seems to serve as a hobby for some

**luke** · 12-31-2017, 08:56 AM

I believe Roz and Annette have both refuted that and have said they most certainly were signed to Motown. Martha seems all over the place per the Vandellas. She seemed to go through a stage when she would seemingly minimize their contribution ...” if the world knew how many people were actually Vandellas...”, then later very specifically mentioning them all by name. You’d think to help the ladies feel positive they’d at least get some stage patter, a few solo lines a la the Pips, the Supremes, the Marvelettes...Just curious.

**blackguy69** · 12-31-2017, 09:25 AM

The only vandella I ever heard sing was Sandra. She did sing lead on one of the versions of we got a honey love. But she was with the velvettes when she did it.

Her version:
https://youtu.be/3ajCPpLp8og

**marv2** · 12-31-2017, 09:31 AM

Martha Reeves demanded that all of the Vandellas be inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. I remember the ceremony when all of them thanked her. By the way, Martha began her career as a solo artist singing in Detroit nightclubs under the name "Martha Lavelle".

**floyjoy678** · 12-31-2017, 10:50 AM

I think regarding Martha having the power to fire Betty and Roz, my opinion is that it all came down to the fact that the public probably didn't know who either of them were. The Supremes were a bigger act and Florence was known so there was probably a lot more careful consideration to showing Flo the door.

The Vandellas took a brief break beginning in 1969 and when Martha was ready to regroup I believe she had someone at Motown inform Roz that she was no longer needed in the group. Betty's firing was a bit more direct from Martha and was an impulse decision.

**thommg** · 12-31-2017, 12:10 PM

Originally Posted by floyjoy678

I think regarding Martha having the power to fire Betty and Roz, my opinion is that it all came down to the fact that the public probably didn't know who either of them were. The Supremes were a bigger act and Florence was known so there was probably a lot more careful consideration to showing Flo the door.

The difference between Marta & The Vandellas and the Supremes is that all three Supremes had their names on album covers, the posters with Greatest Hits, and even mentioned in a hit song. I don't recall the Vandellas listed on any album covers, just Martha.

**luckyluckyme** · 12-31-2017, 12:43 PM

Originally Posted by thommg

The difference between Marta & The Vandellas and the Supremes is that all three Supremes had their names on album covers, the posters with Greatest Hits, and even mentioned in a hit song. I don't recall the Vandellas listed on any album covers, just Martha.

The back cover of the Heatwave album acknowledges soprano, Rosalyn Ashford & alto Annette Beard; Dance Party's back cover identifies Martha, Rosaly & Betty Kelly as the girls who make up the explosive Martha & the Vandellas; Martha, Lois & Sandra are each pictured individually & named on the back cover of Sugar n' Spice; On Black Magic, Martha, Lois, & Sandra are identified by name & zodiac sign.

**luckyluckyme** · 12-31-2017, 10:50 AM

Doesn't Betty Kelly get a few short moments in the spotlight, called out & playfully chastised by Martha [[You call that sangin?) during the closing medley of the 20 Grand Performance released on Gordy 925?

**luke** · 12-31-2017, 12:18 PM

That’s kind of the point

**luke** · 12-31-2017, 12:28 PM

I agree brad with a lot of what you said but Diana certainly wanted Flo out and the meeting was pretty much a formality.

**TheMotownManiac** · 03-08-2018, 01:49 PM

Originally Posted by luke

I agree brad with a lot of what you said but Diana certainly wanted Flo out and the meeting was pretty much a formality.

Mary and Berry wanted Flo out as well. Flo found that out the hard way at the meeting. As any employer would say, there’s just so much you can take from an employee. Their non-comfority not only causes harm to the group, but undermines the authority of the entire organization. No one hated Flo. No one WANTED her gone. They wanted the behavior to go, and the only way was to lose the behavior. Mary told me Flo was hostile to Berry and things were hot and cold with Diana. If it’s true that Flo was taking prescription diet pills, they can definitely change and exaggerate moods. It may have contributed to Flo’s inability to cope in an acceptable manner. After the meeting, Flo wasn’t speaking to Diana or Mary or Berry and that certainly wasn’t going to go on too long.

Not or being privy to the whole inside story, it’s easy to say what ‘should have been done.’ Personally, I’d have given Flo a few months off, used Marlene Barrow or rented Cindy to see if maybe Flo could get it together. Removing a popular group member, I’m sure, was not Taken lightly. But Gordy seems to me like quite a little Hitler, drunk with power, and once his ego was challenged, there could be only one result. Plus, Diana looks to me like she was just hanging by a thread emotionally as well. The tension had to be relieved as the group might stand losing Flo, but not Diana.

**RanRan79** · 03-08-2018, 02:58 PM

Originally Posted by TheMotownManiac

Mary and Berry wanted Flo out as well. Flo found that out the hard way at the meeting. As any employer would say, there’s just so much you can take from an employee. Their non-comfority not only causes harm to the group, but undermines the authority of the entire organization. No one hated Flo. No one WANTED her gone. They wanted the behavior to go, and the only way was to lose the behavior. Mary told me Flo was hostile to Berry and things were hot and cold with Diana. If it’s true that Flo was taking prescription diet pills, they can definitely change and exaggerate moods. It may have contributed to Flo’s inability to cope in an acceptable manner. After the meeting, Flo wasn’t speaking to Diana or Mary or Berry and that certainly wasn’t going to go on too long.

Not or being privy to the whole inside story, it’s easy to say what ‘should have been done.’ Personally, I’d have given Flo a few months off, used Marlene Barrow or rented Cindy to see if maybe Flo could get it together. Removing a popular group member, I’m sure, was not Taken lightly. But Gordy seems to me like quite a little Hitler, drunk with power, and once his ego was challenged, there could be only one result. Plus, Diana looks to me like she was just hanging by a thread emotionally as well. The tension had to be relieved as the group might stand losing Flo, but not Diana.

I agree with just about all of that. As I said in another thread some months ago, if any one of us in Soulful Detroit were to ever walk into our jobs participating in Flo's shenanigans, we'd be out on our asses. And most of us would agree that it would be unacceptable behavior. Why does Flo get a pass? I'm the biggest Flo fan there is [[as far as I'm concerned) and in every way that matters I give her the full credit she deserves. But she aint Jesus. She aint perfect. She was a flawed human being, as were everyone else in this cast of characters. Florence made her own bed and then had to lie in it. The most unfortunate thing is that she died so young and after a years long period of bad decisions and bad luck, so we never get to see her emerge from the consequences of her youthful antics like most of the rest of us got the chance to do.

But calling Flo on her shit doesn't mean that Gordy, Ross and Wilson's shoes were clean either. It's just that Gordy held all the power, Ross had some power, and Flo and Mary had none. Mary kept her job because she towed the line and sided with the powerful against the weak.

**midnightman** · 03-08-2018, 04:17 PM

Jesus, it's like any other Motown story involving another Motown legend, the Supremes got to be interjected into it!!!

God forbid if I make a Marvin Gaye topic, discussing his years of being bipolar, and suddenly what happened backstage at a Supremes concert in nineteen sixty-John Brown-six is brought up lol

**RanRan79** · 03-08-2018, 04:56 PM

Originally Posted by midnightman

Jesus, it's like any other Motown story involving another Motown legend, the Supremes got to be interjected into it!!!

God forbid if I make a Marvin Gaye topic, discussing his years of being bipolar, and suddenly what happened backstage at a Supremes concert in nineteen sixty-John Brown-six is brought up lol

For my part, I was just following the posts and responding to what has already been written. I'll leave the topic of the Supremes out of any future posts in this thread and keep the focus on the Vandellas. But I also have to agree with you; someone always brings them up and half the time I'm left wondering what was the point? In some cases I think it's someone hoping to derail the conversation. Ya know, that weird psychotic thing that goes on around here sometimes.

**blackguy69** · 12-31-2017, 02:15 PM

Originally Posted by luckyluckyme

The back cover of the Heatwave album acknowledges soprano, Rosalyn Ashford & alto Annette Beard; Dance Party's back cover identifies Martha, Rosaly & Betty Kelly as the girls who make up the explosive Martha & the Vandellas; Martha, Lois & Sandra are each pictured individually & named on the back cover of Sugar n' Spice; On Black Magic, Martha, Lois, & Sandra are identified by name & zodiac sign.

I think he meant the supremes were promoted as individuals where the vandellas weren’t. The marvelettes were named on the back of the sophisticated soul album but was pretty unknown

**mysterysinger** · 12-31-2017, 02:47 PM

Then there was Saundra Mallett...

https://motownjunkies.co.uk/2010/08/24/208/

**marv2** · 12-31-2017, 03:31 PM

Originally Posted by mysterysinger

Then there was Saundra Mallett...

https://motownjunkies.co.uk/2010/08/24/208/

Thanks Mysterysinger

**reese** · 12-31-2017, 03:38 PM

Originally Posted by mysterysinger

Then there was Saundra Mallett...

https://motownjunkies.co.uk/2010/08/24/208/

Martha wasn't on this recording and in an interview with IN THE BASEMENT, sounded a bit miffed that Rosalind and Annette did it without her.

**blueskies** · 12-31-2017, 07:28 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGsd2hAvGc8

The Del-Phi's

**Circa 1824** · 01-01-2018, 09:19 AM

Drummers never play the guitar. Violinists never play the saxophone. Backup gals should never sing lead. The world loves the lead star or they would not be the “lead star.” Almost no one gave two hoots about the revolving gals who stood six feet behind the star.

**smallworld** · 01-01-2018, 02:56 PM

Originally Posted by Circa 1824

Backup gals should never sing lead. The world loves the lead star or they would not be the “lead star.”

Wasn't Dionne Warwick a back up gal before Burt Bacharach picked her out to demo tracks for him?

Wasn't Whitney Houston a back up gal for her mother before being given some featured spots etc.?

I'd much rather listen to a Lisa Fischer set than a Mick Jagger one. I don't begrudge the latter his success but I don't think the former not becoming a name makes her "lesser" than the headliner.

**midnightman** · 03-08-2018, 11:42 AM

Originally Posted by Circa 1824

Drummers never play the guitar. Violinists never play the saxophone. Backup gals should never sing lead. The world loves the lead star or they would not be the “lead star.” Almost no one gave two hoots about the revolving gals who stood six feet behind the star.

The group only "revolved" because there was chaos behind the scenes, Circa. The "classic" Vandellas lineups were Annette and Roz [[and Betty after Annette left). Least to us Motown fans, they are. But to casual listeners, they only name Martha because her name was in front. But we're not gonna sit here and diminish the other Vandellas' roles. We're not doing that today in 2018.

**PeaceNHarmony** · 12-31-2017, 08:28 PM

Interesting that ... one Motown lead singer ... gets crucified 50+ years later for not yielding solos to other members but another lead singer is viewed as blameless. Same with lead singer's name coming before the group name. Always adjudicated as being a ... 'different' .... situation. But the concept of logic never seems to apply here, does it?

**marv2** · 12-31-2017, 08:52 PM

Originally Posted by PeaceNHarmony

Interesting that ... one Motown lead singer ... gets crucified 50+ years later for not yielding solos to other members but another lead singer is viewed as blameless. Same with lead singer's name coming before the group name. Always adjudicated as being a ... 'different' .... situation. But the concept of logic never seems to apply here, does it?

Martha Reeves was not sleeping with the boss Berry Gordy to get their records released over others.

**thommg** · 01-01-2018, 12:19 AM

Originally Posted by PeaceNHarmony

Interesting that ... one Motown lead singer ... gets crucified 50+ years later for not yielding solos to other members but another lead singer is viewed as blameless. Same with lead singer's name coming before the group name. Always adjudicated as being a ... 'different' .... situation. But the concept of logic never seems to apply here, does it?

It was always Martha & The Vandellas, but it wasn't always Diana Ross and the Supremes. And I don't think most of the fans crucify Diana for not giving anyone else lead time. Most of just enjoyed the times when a lead went to Flo or Mary.

**Boogiedown** · 01-03-2018, 02:44 AM

Originally Posted by thommg

It was always Martha & The Vandellas, but it wasn't always Diana Ross and the Supremes. And I don't think most of the fans crucify Diana for not giving anyone else lead time. Most of just enjoyed the times when a lead went to Flo or Mary.

I like this point . Unlike Martha and The Vs' , at first it was a group of girls equally called The Supremes. That's a different dynamic.
Also even after Diana went "solo" she always had back up singers supporting her in concert [[and on recordings) then and ever since . They just weren't any longer called "The Supremes". Any one pay any particular attention to these gals names over the years?

**jobeterob** · 12-31-2017, 10:12 PM

The Supremes, because Diana Ross had an instantly recognizable voice and became a major star, attract attention to minute detail that no other Motown group did.

**marv2** · 12-31-2017, 10:45 PM

Originally Posted by jobeterob

The Supremes, because Diana Ross had an instantly recognizable voice and became a major star, attract attention to minute detail that no other Motown group did.

She was sleeping with the boss and in the lingo of Millennials, she was "thuggin' for tracks" even way back then. That benefited the Supremes and they have admitted it over the years.

**danman869** · 12-31-2017, 11:47 PM

The Vandellas did have stage patter at The Copa in '68. There were a few [[clearly rehearsed) stage lines tossed back and forth to lead into "Honey Chile" between Martha, Roz, and Lois. I'd bet there was more, too, if we could ever hear the entire performance. Plus, as someone noted, there's the "teasing" of Betty [["you call that sangin'?!) on the "M&TV Live!" album. Especially at a venue like The Copa, Motown groups [[male or female) were probably expected to have an act that contained a bit of stage patter and whatnot. If it worked for The Supremes...

**Philles/Motown Gary** · 01-01-2018, 12:35 AM

Originally Posted by blackguy69

The only vandella I ever heard sing was Sandra. She did sing lead on one of the versions of we got a honey love. But she was with the velvettes when she did it.

Her version:
https://youtu.be/3ajCPpLp8og

Hearing Sandra's lead-vocal voice was a first for me, too, blackguy69. I actually like it a lot! Her phrasing on certain lyrics throughout were amazingly professional. If I were hearing "[[We've Got) Honey Love" being sung for the first time ever, I would love Sandy's version, but in my head and my heart, that song will always belong to Martha. Thanks for sharing Sandy's version. If you should come across any more Motown tracks by her, please bring 'em on!

**Jimi LaLumia** · 01-01-2018, 06:25 AM

Chris Clark was sleepin with the boss, and that worked out well for this world famous superstar didn't it? lol..and the endless line of other superstars who were sleeping with the boss.. Berry Gordy called the shots at Motown, period, and Gordy wanted Florence outta The Supremes due to her endless attacks on him and his decisions regarding the group... Happy New Year!! lol

**PeaceNHarmony** · 01-01-2018, 09:26 AM

Originally Posted by Jimi LaLumia

Chris Clark was sleepin with the boss, and that worked out well for this world famous superstar didn't it? lol..and the endless line of other superstars who were sleeping with the boss.. Berry Gordy called the shots at Motown, period, and Gordy wanted Florence outta The Supremes due to her endless attacks on him and his decisions regarding the group... Happy New Year!! lol

Right? ... some slept with the boss; some slept with everybody else ... so be it! Another way to look at it: those who hate/d Barack Obama had to resort to lies about him being from Kenya beacuse they could not find real faults with him; likewise those who hate Chris Clark, Martha Reeves, etc have to resort to lies about them. All of a kind.

**marv2** · 01-01-2018, 11:05 AM

Originally Posted by Jimi LaLumia

Chris Clark was sleepin with the boss, and that worked out well for this world famous superstar didn't it? lol..and the endless line of other superstars who were sleeping with the boss.. Berry Gordy called the shots at Motown, period, and Gordy wanted Florence outta The Supremes due to her endless attacks on him and his decisions regarding the group... Happy New Year!! lol

Diane must have threw in the "extras". Berry tried to date Flo once....she said no! Happy New Year!

**Jimi LaLumia** · 01-01-2018, 06:15 PM

the 'extras"..LOL..love it, Marv... Happy New Year!

**blackguy69** · 01-01-2018, 09:24 AM

Hold up folks before world war 100 breaks out. This isn’t about Diana or any of the supremes so don’t add them to this conversation.

**blackguy69** · 01-01-2018, 11:17 AM

Marv you fell right into the trap lol. People this thread isn’t about Diana. Things have been civil here. Don’t mess it up

**jobeterob** · 01-01-2018, 02:00 PM

Originally Posted by Circa 1824

Drummers never play the guitar. Violinists never play the saxophone. Backup gals should never sing lead. The world loves the lead star or they would not be the “lead star.” Almost no one gave two hoots about the revolving gals who stood six feet behind the star.

Very true ......

**Philles/Motown Gary** · 01-01-2018, 03:14 PM

Originally Posted by Circa 1824

Almost no one gave two hoots about the revolving gals who stood six feet behind the star.

Circa1824, I wouldn't go quite that far. I agree that many back-up singers aren't qualified to sing lead, but the back-up singers were equally important to me as the lead vocalist. Back in the 60s, I grew up with Philles and Motown. Those groups were like family to me. Whenever there was a personnel change with a group, I sensed an immediate loss [[temporary, of course, but, nonetheless, a loss). I think a lot of Motown fans here would agree with that.

**blackguy69** · 01-01-2018, 03:29 PM

Originally Posted by smallworld

Wasn't Dionne Warwick a back up gal before Burt Bacharach picked her out to demo tracks for him?

Wasn't Whitney Houston a back up gal for her mother before being given some featured spots etc.?

I'd much rather listen to a Lisa Fischer set than a Mick Jagger one. I don't begrudge the latter his success but I don't think the former not becoming a name makes her "lesser" than the headliner.

katy Perry, Gwen Stefani, Mariah Carey, Mary J.blige were all back up gals before going big. Luther and Elton were backup guys

**Jimi LaLumia** · 01-01-2018, 06:18 PM

a lot of people can be back up singers..not everyone has the show biz bug to be an attention holding front person.. I love Miss Warwick for example but she was never exactly an electrifying performer..vocalist, absolutely..on stage dazzle? not so much..