Nights Over Egypt!

[marv2]

What are your thoughts on what is happening in Egypt?

[tamla617]

oh yeah!
the one and only thing.petrol/gas/oil,what ever your going to use is going UP!
SUEZ CANAL,egyptian controled.who runs egypt runs the flow of oil,nike shirts=anything made in china,malaysia,singapore,japan,korea.you're going to pay [[europe) or go the long way 'round south africa,cape of good hope.
.
egypt is also a cross roads an "in" to the rest of the mid east.saudi arabia "talks" to isreal through egypt.
egypt's borders with isreal and is peaceful with isreal.the next govt.MUST be the same or we will pay!
it aint good.i could go on and on but you'd switch off!

[Doug-Morgan]

At the moment, the closing of the canal and the pipeline that runs along side of it are a major concern, although there was only a short spike in prices after it was closed following the Gulf War.

My major concern is what will happen when/if Mubarak leaves office. After the fall of the Egyptian dinasty in a CIA inspired revolt in 1952 that toppled King Farouk, and the 1954 revolution that placed Gamal Nasser in power, Egypt has no instutuinal memory of democratic rule and my concern is that, like so many other "new" democratic governments, it won't know how to act in the best interest of the people. It will be interesting over the next few weeks, months and years to see how the whole thing plays out. If one comes, my fear is that a "peoples republic" will degererate into another dictatorship.

[marv2]

Interesting comments. I also believe that President Obama and the U.S. Government must VERY careful how they respond to this current situation.

[splanky]

I'm watching this with a great deal of pessimism right now and wondering what will be the impact on American life, mostly from an economic focus but also from a socio-political view. It's on the front page now but there is a lot going on on that continent
that I've been bothered about for quite a few years now. In South Africa, Uganda and
recent return to the 60's tensions between Ethiopia and it's neighbors, Eritrea and Somalia...

[soulster]

At the moment, the closing of the canal and the pipeline that runs along side of it are a major concern, although there was only a short spike in prices after it was closed following the Gulf War.

My major concern is what will happen when/if Mubarak leaves office. After the fall of the Egyptian dinasty in a CIA inspired revolt in 1952 that toppled King Farouk, and the 1954 revolution that placed Gamal Nasser in power, Egypt has no instutuinal memory of democratic rule and my concern is that, like so many other "new" democratic governments, it won't know how to act in the best interest of the people. It will be interesting over the next few weeks, months and years to see how the whole thing plays out. If one comes, my fear is that a "peoples republic" will degererate into another dictatorship.

Good post, anf thoughts I agree with. Until something significant happens, all we can do is watch.

[arrr&bee]

Hey no fair this title is misleading...i expected to hear some exotic song about camels kissing in the desert!!!

[roger]

Hey no fair this title is misleading...i expected to hear some exotic song about camels kissing in the desert!!!

Listen to this tune arr&bee .. "Nights Over Egypt" by THE JONES GIRLS and try listening to the lyrics .. maybe they mention your camels ....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgeZ700D0Dw

[arrr&bee]

listen to this tune arr&bee .. "nights over egypt" by the jones girls and try listening to the lyrics .. Maybe they mention your camels ....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgez700d0dw

hey roger thanks,i remember that song...bring on the harem girls!!!

[marv2]

Hey no fair this title is misleading...i expected to hear some exotic song about camels kissing in the desert!!!

I'm sorry, but it seemed perfect for what I am seeing each night on the World news about events over in Egypt. LOL!

[arrr&bee]

i'm sorry, but it seemed perfect for what i am seeing each night on the world news about events over in egypt. Lol!

haaaaaaaaa,hey marv,you're absolutely right brother,you know me always cuttin up!!!

[marv2]

haaaaaaaaa,hey marv,you're absolutely right brother,you know me always cuttin up!!!

Please bro, don't stop! Continue! You are one of my favorites!!!LOL!!!

[arrr&bee]

please bro, don't stop! Continue! You are one of my favorites!!!lol!!!

awwww shucks,i'm speechless!

[marv2]

To lessen the chances of wide spread violence..........................Mubarak should leave NOW! Not in September. I think he still doesn't really get it. This could even increase the odds that some may try to do him great physical harm. Why doesn't the man just go already?

[arrr&bee]

Yeah,hope on one of them kissin camels and go!!!

[olamaebarto]

Mubarak is sending out the thugs. He can kiss the US $$$ good-bye now.

[olamaebarto]

My god! Watching ABC right now .... the beatings and attack are totally fucked up.

[robbert]

Thank god it's Friday...
All relatively quiet on the Tahrir Square.

Just three weeks ago I walked through Cairo and i sensed that something was brewing but couldn't lay a finger on it.

[robb_k]

I worked in Egypt during the late 1970s and early 1980s[[also Jordan, Syria, Morocco. It has been a dictatorship all along. But, I'd rather have a Mubarak type in there than The Muslim Brotherhood. Egypt needs to be friendly to USA to get the aid they need. They are FAR from being able to feed their growing population. A fundamentalist Muslim takeover would be a disaster.

[marv2]

I worked in Egypt during the late 1970s and early 1980s[[also Jordan, Syria, Morocco. It has been a dictatorship all along. But, I'd rather have a Mubarak type in there than The Muslim Brotherhood. Egypt needs to be friendly to USA to get the aid they need. They are FAR from being able to feed their growing population. A fundamentalist Muslim takeover would be a disaster.

Robb, with all due respect but isn't that a big part of the problem? I mean Egypt is an ally of the U.S. and does receive a substantial amount of foreign aid from the US Government. Yet all I've heard from the people on the streets in Cairo is that they cannot afford to feed their families, pay their rents or even find jobs that pay a living wage, so my question is with all the millions from the U.S., what are the people suffering so just to have the basics?

[robb_k]

Robb, with all due respect but isn't that a big part of the problem? I mean Egypt is an ally of the U.S. and does receive a substantial amount of foreign aid from the US Government. Yet all I've heard from the people on the streets in Cairo is that they cannot afford to feed their families, pay their rents or even find jobs that pay a living wage, so my question is with all the millions from the U.S., what are the people suffering so just to have the basics?

I'm not defending Mubarak as a "good guy", or USA. I'm ust saying that moving back to The Middle Ages will not help the average Egyptian.

[ms_m]

I'm not defending Mubarak as a "good guy", or USA. I'm ust saying that moving back to The Middle Ages will not help the average Egyptian.

Going backwards will not help the average American citizen but that's not stopping Tea Party Republicans from trying, and a democratic process put them in office. Democracy can be quite messy.

Is democracy for one country only democracy when it's in the best interest of another?

[bobkayli]

Yet another complex issue to come out of the Middle East. Have had a quick tour of Egypt on Wikipedia and reminded myself of Egypts size, population, strategic position and influence. Goodness me, there is so much that can go wrong in this. Oil and Israel are the obvious threats to the West but Egypt is also a key player in so much that goes on in the eastern Mediterranean, the Middle East, Africa, the Arab world and the Islam World.
I see that they have democracy in name already but the imposition of emergency law since Sadats assasination in 1981 means that it is not democracy as we know it. So it seems to me that what is needed at that level is some adaptation of the democracy they already have. We've seen already in Iraq and Afghanistan that such change is easier to talk about than put into practice.
Should Mubarak go without something alternative ready to take his place, there will be a void. Nature abhors vacuums so who knows what that would lead to. Power will flow in some direction no doubt controlled by the military who have the means to take control. I am not sure that this is the best solution from a democratic viewpoint although it may suit the West since they can continue buying the military and keep some sort of a lid on the situation, at least in the short term.
The economic problems facing Egypt will not go away whether Mubarak goes or not. So whatever comes out of this, the people will not be happy with their lot. In that sense, his departure will buy time assuming that any new leader has public support.
There is no clear leader emerging from this either. Having a revolution makes some sort of sense if there is a new order ready to assume control. I don't see this in Egypt. The Muslim Brotherhood seem to have some support but not amongst the existing ruling classes and many ethnic groups.
A period of talking and keeping things calm seems the best thing particularly since Mubarak has said he will leave in September.
The West at least has had the good sense to keep away from telling Egypt what to do. Whether its Hilary, Obama or Cameron, their comments seem to be following events rather than trying to shape them. There is a clear recognition that they are impotent if they wish to impose their will and risk only inflaming matters if they go too strong in one direction or another. At least lessons from previous Egyptian crises are being taken taken on board. No doubt behind the scenes though, there is a lot more going on.
Other than to keep talking and letting a solution emerge, I don't know what else is best for Egypt at the moment. I am fearful that some Western over-reaction could lead to a bloodbath and an even more repressive regime in its place. Meanwhile I keep having to pay more to fill up my car....

[ms_m]

Hi bobkayli

I'm aware of the potential vacum. The media talks about that and the Brotherhood more than they talk about the issues of the people. Although I agree it's always a possibility, I don't see it as being a probability. Not with these kids, their lives have been forever changed. Exchanging one oppressive government for another is not something they will accept. This isn't, nor has it ever been about religion for them, It won't be about religion no matter what happens.

I feel you on the gas issue but to be honest, I'd rather be pissed off about higher gas prices than sitting in the middle of Tahrir square right now or dealing with a government that's willing to kill me because I choose to stand up for myself.

All a matter of perspective I guess.

[smark21]

Going backwards will not help the average American citizen but that's not stopping Tea Party Republicans from trying, and a democratic process put them in office. Democracy can be quite messy.

Is democracy for one country only democracy when it's in the best interest of another?

Speaking of which, I found this article addressed to the Tea Party--This is what a Revolution looks like:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert...=Google+Reader

[robb_k]

Yet another complex issue to come out of the Middle East. Have had a quick tour of Egypt on Wikipedia and reminded myself of Egypts size, population, strategic position and influence. Goodness me, there is so much that can go wrong in this. Oil and Israel are the obvious threats to the West but Egypt is also a key player in so much that goes on in the eastern Mediterranean, the Middle East, Africa, the Arab world and the Islam World.
I see that they have democracy in name already but the imposition of emergency law since Sadats assasination in 1981 means that it is not democracy as we know it. So it seems to me that what is needed at that level is some adaptation of the democracy they already have. We've seen already in Iraq and Afghanistan that such change is easier to talk about than put into practice.
Should Mubarak go without something alternative ready to take his place, there will be a void. Nature abhors vacuums so who knows what that would lead to. Power will flow in some direction no doubt controlled by the military who have the means to take control. I am not sure that this is the best solution from a democratic viewpoint although it may suit the West since they can continue buying the military and keep some sort of a lid on the situation, at least in the short term.
The economic problems facing Egypt will not go away whether Mubarak goes or not. So whatever comes out of this, the people will not be happy with their lot. In that sense, his departure will buy time assuming that any new leader has public support.
There is no clear leader emerging from this either. Having a revolution makes some sort of sense if there is a new order ready to assume control. I don't see this in Egypt. The Muslim Brotherhood seem to have some support but not amongst the existing ruling classes and many ethnic groups.
A period of talking and keeping things calm seems the best thing particularly since Mubarak has said he will leave in September.
The West at least has had the good sense to keep away from telling Egypt what to do. Whether its Hilary, Obama or Cameron, their comments seem to be following events rather than trying to shape them. There is a clear recognition that they are impotent if they wish to impose their will and risk only inflaming matters if they go too strong in one direction or another. At least lessons from previous Egyptian crises are being taken taken on board. No doubt behind the scenes though, there is a lot more going on.
Other than to keep talking and letting a solution emerge, I don't know what else is best for Egypt at the moment. I am fearful that some Western over-reaction could lead to a bloodbath and an even more repressive regime in its place. Meanwhile I keep having to pay more to fill up my car....

Well thought out. We can only hope that whoever takes over will bring some measure of additional freedom and better conditions to the basic Egyptian population, rather than a more repressive regime.

[ms_m]

additional freedom?

Smashing a young mans skull in because he didn't have a license for a fruit stand is freedom?

Jailing activists because they speak against their government is freedom?

Shooting people down in the middle of the streets for protesting peacefully is freedom?

Cutting off communication systems is freedom

Trying to suppress the truth through propaganda is freedom

Amending the Constitution so only one party [[the party in charge) can run for political office is freedom?

Intimidation and torture is freedom?

Living under a dictatorship is freedom?

What freedoms have these people had in the last 30 years? The freedom to live in fear?

I guess as long as the "privileged" have the freedom to walk away and or ignore at will, these conditions, that's freedom, eh?


Somethings never change.

[ms_m]

...and before I go back to my little corner of the world.

As far as I'm concerned, the USA and the United Kingdom [[directly and indirectly) have caused these people more than enough problems decade after decade, both need to concentrate more on crafting a Foreign Policy that works in the 21st Century. It wouldn't hurt if they stop using fear as a weapon to control, and letting greed and power be their motivator. Oh yeah, and the other guys, they have a mighty military and about 200 nukes, they'll be fine...if not, boom goes the dynamite and the world is screwed. shrugs

[robb_k]

additional freedom?

Smashing a young mans skull in because he didn't have a license for a fruit stand is freedom?

Jailing activists because they speak against their government is freedom?



Shooting people down in the middle of the streets for protesting peacefully is freedom?

Cutting off communication systems is freedom

Trying to suppress the truth through propaganda is freedom

Amending the Constitution so only one party [[the party in charge) can run for political office is freedom?

Intimidation and torture is freedom?

Living under a dictatorship is freedom?

What freedoms have these people had in the last 30 years? The freedom to live in fear?

I guess as long as the "privileged" have the freedom to walk away and or ignore at will, these conditions, that's freedom, eh?


Somethings never change.

Here is what I wrote above:

"I worked in Egypt during the late 1970s and early 1980s[[also Jordan, Syria, Morocco. It has been a dictatorship all along. But, I'd rather have a Mubarak type in there than The Muslim Brotherhood. Egypt needs to be friendly to USA to get the aid they need. They are FAR from being able to feed their growing population. A fundamentalist Muslim takeover would be a disaster."

I never wrote that I wouldn't want The Egyptian people to overthrow The Mubarak regime and rule over themselves and install a government more responsive to the people's needs. I would love for that to happen. I have Egyptian friends. But, also, I am a human being, and want to see freedom and good conditions for all. I just base my statement that as bad as Mubarak's rule was, rule of a military dictator or fundamentalist Islamic regime would be worse. Was Khomeini's rule good for Iran?

Why would anyone who has seen my posts on this forum [[2002 to the present) think I have approved of US foreign policy [[or domestic policy for that matter?)? I have been constantly critical of both. Many people here have been highly critical of me for having anti-American prejudice. And, I certainly am not an "elitist", who can just walk away from The Middle East and its politics. About a third of my extended family lives in Israel. I lived in Jordan for 6 years. I was engaged to a Jordanian woman at one time. I lived and worked in Egypt, The Sudan, Morocco, Syria, Tunisia. I made many Palestinian friends in Jordan, as well as non-Palestinian Jordanians, and have friends in Egypt, Turkey, The Sudan. So, I am on both and neither sides of The Israeli/Arab problem. Throughout the 15 years I worked in The Middle East, I saw Westerners only during working hours. All my spare time was spent together with locals. I do NOT "walk away" from Egypt's problems when I'm 1,500 or 2,500 or 7,500 miles away [[just because I'm "safe"). I have dodged bullets in Damascus during the Muslim Brotherhood's revolt there [[around 30 years ago). I was in Israel during The Six Day War.

I consider USA a dictatorship [[certainly not a "democracy"). Why would I be "happy" with Mubarak's dictatorship in Egypt? Of course I hate it, and all it stands for. My only point was that I hope toppling him doesn't leave a power vacuum that brings in a MORE REPRESSIVE Muslim fundamentalist dictatorship, or brutal military dictatorship.

I can see why my post saying "Well thought out" might be confusing. I overlooked this comment by Bob Kayli: "So it seems to me that what is needed at that level is some adaptation of the democracy they already have." I might have mentioned above that the people's treatment under their present government little resembles democracy. But, I had already mentioned above that they have had one form or another of dictatorship all along. I meant that Bob Kayli's statements that "moving slowly so that there is time for popular support to be given civilian leaders, and avoid a force takeover, and the Western Powers staying out of it" is well thought out.

People who know me would not call me an uncaring "elitist".

[ms_m]

I wasn’t confused. Nor did I accuse you of anything or call you any names. I asked you several questions, questions you didn’t answer. Questions I can show example after example of being valid. Well I exaggerated slightly on the one political party thing, but the spirit is the same.

The issues of the Egyptian revolt and those of Iranian revolt are apples and oranges and let’s be honest, neither the Khomeini nor the Shah were angels in their actions prior to the overthrow.

The Brotherhood has been about peace, modernization and inclusiveness for decades. They may or may not have a great love for Israel but going to war or closing the canal would not be in Egypt’s best economic interest which is really the heart of the opposition to the Brotherhood; economics…not religion. Bur fear mongering is a great tool for hiding motives.

As far as the US, what you think about the country is your prerogative but I can stand on the corner and protest against my government until the cows come home and not worry too much about getting killed. [[unless I’m in Houston or deep in Tea Party country but that’s another issue)

[ms_m]

A Short Primer on Egypt Now

http://americanfootprints.com/wp/201...-on-egypt-now/

This link failed in my thread which I will correct but research and listening first hand to the protesters and their stories, as well as Egyptian, Arab, Israeli, EU and US historians, pundits, diplomats, etc., and of course US and International news outlets from all points of view... I'm satisfied this essay hits the nail on the head.

I'm not discounting your knowledge and experiences, I can only imagine how horrid bullets flying around you must have been but hearing the stories of people who are willing to die for their freedom, seeing people getting killed and beaten, are compelling as well.

[robb_k]

I wasn’t confused. Nor did I accuse you of anything or call you any names. I asked you several questions, questions you didn’t answer. Questions I can show example after example of being valid. Well I exaggerated slightly on the one political party thing, but the spirit is the same.

The issues of the Egyptian revolt and those of Iranian revolt are apples and oranges and let’s be honest, neither the Khomeini nor the Shah were angels in their actions prior to the overthrow.

The Brotherhood has been about peace, modernization and inclusiveness for decades. They may or may not have a great love for Israel but going to war or closing the canal would not be in Egypt’s best economic interest which is really the heart of the opposition to the Brotherhood; economics…not religion. Bur fear mongering is a great tool for hiding motives.

As far as the US, what you think about the country is your prerogative but I can stand on the corner and protest against my government until the cows come home and not worry too much about getting killed. [[unless I’m in Houston or deep in Tea Party country but that’s another issue)

I agree also that The Shah's rule in Iran was terrible. I'm not in favour of The Europeans or Americans having colonised The third World and backed dictators all over The World to their own advantage.

I would answer every one of your questions the same as you would. I was never trying to defend Mubarak's regime in any way. I'll say again what I stated above. I only hope that the new regime that takes over is more responsible to the people's needs. IF The Muslim Brotherhood takes over and behaves that way [[and does not bring a police state and warlike state), then I'd have no problem with it. I did not know that The Muslim Brotherhood has had modernization as a goal for decades. Or, at least, I did not know that "The Muslim Brotherhood" in Egypt is part of an international Muslim Brotherhood that is for peace and modernisation.

Personally, I'd rather see a coalition of all major groups that represent, basically, all the people in Egypt participate in the next regime. I'm not against the basic tenets of Islam, just as I am not against those of Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, or any other religion [[only against regimes that do destructive things in the name of those religions).

[robb_k]

I wasn’t confused. Nor did I accuse you of anything or call you any names. I asked you several questions, questions you didn’t answer. Questions I can show example after example of being valid. Well I exaggerated slightly on the one political party thing, but the spirit is the same.

The issues of the Egyptian revolt and those of Iranian revolt are apples and oranges and let’s be honest, neither the Khomeini nor the Shah were angels in their actions prior to the overthrow.

The Brotherhood has been about peace, modernization and inclusiveness for decades. They may or may not have a great love for Israel but going to war or closing the canal would not be in Egypt’s best economic interest which is really the heart of the opposition to the Brotherhood; economics…not religion. Bur fear mongering is a great tool for hiding motives.

As far as the US, what you think about the country is your prerogative but I can stand on the corner and protest against my government until the cows come home and not worry too much about getting killed. [[unless I’m in Houston or deep in Tea Party country but that’s another issue)

I agree also that The Shah's rule in Iran was terrible. I'm not in favour of The Europeans or Americans having colonised The third World and backed dictators all over The World to their own advantage.

I would answer every one of your questions the same as you would. I was never trying to defend Mubarak's regime in any way. I'll say again what I stated above. I only hope that the new regime that takes over is more responsible to the people's needs. IF The Muslim Brotherhood takes over and behaves that way [[and does not bring a police state and warlike state), then I'd have no problem with it. I did not know that The Muslim Brotherhood has had modernization as a goal for decades. Or, at least, I did not know that "The Muslim Brotherhood" in Egypt is part of an international Muslim Brotherhood that is for peace and modernisation.

Personally, I'd rather see a coalition of all major groups that represent, basically, all the people in Egypt participate in the next regime. I'm not against the basic tenets of Islam, just as I am not against those of Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, or any other religion [[only against regimes that do destructive things in the name of those religions[[as virtually all the Christian, Moslem, Jewish, Hindu, and even most of the Bhuddist states have done in the past).

[ms_m]

We're talking over each other, my issue was with, "additional freedoms." You have to have freedoms to begin with, in order to add to them Robb K.

The brotherhood has a following of somewhere between 20-30% of the population. Before they were banned they actually picked up something like 80 seats in Parliament. That was the will of the people and Mubarak freaked. Kinda hard to steal when you don't have your hand picked base all around you to watch your back.

It seems to me, you , the media and many people are truly missing the point here. As far as the protesters are concerned, this is about the Egyptian people, not an ideology.

They want free and fair elections, they want a govt that's not #125 on the most corrupt list, they want freedom of assembly, speech , press... they want the ability to make a living and live with dignity and respect. They want a secular democratic society with all it's faults and imperfections.

This is their moment in time and for now, it's their interest and their country that motivates them. Not the interest of the US, Israel, EU the military, Islam, Christians, you, me or anyone else.

Whether they agree on every issue or not, they are Egyptians first and foremost. A foreign concept I know but they really see themselves as one. What will happen later is anyone's guess but for now they all share the same goal...the dismantling of the Mubarak Regime.

When it's time to vote, they will vote. Hopefully, they will be able to vote without intimidation and fear and once the votes are counted, it will be the will of the people. Some people will be happy, others will not but at least they will have been given a free and democratic choice. Who they choose, is on them and everyone else around the world will have to find a way to deal with it....how others deal with it, is the real issue, not who the Egyptians vote for.

[robb_k]

We don't disagree on any point. I already mentioned above that by "additional freedoms" I meant more freedom. I didn't mean to imply that they aren't under a repressive dictatorship [[as I stated above-)"They've been under a dictatorship all along". Using the word "additional" was a poor choice of wording. I get the point that they want free elections and to be out from under the repressive dictatorship. As I stated before, I'll be glad if they obtain those freedoms. I am glad to learn that The Muslim Brotherhood is for modernisation.

[robb_k]

We don't disagree on any point. I already mentioned above that by "additional freedoms" I meant more freedom. I didn't mean to imply that they aren't under a repressive dictatorship [[as I stated above-)"They've been under a dictatorship all along". Using the word "additional" was a poor choice of wording. I get the point that they want free elections and to be out from under the repressive dictatorship. As I stated before, I'll be glad if they obtain those freedoms. I am glad to learn that The Muslim Brotherhood is for modernisation.

[marv2]

...and before I go back to my little corner of the world.

As far as I'm concerned, the USA and the United Kingdom [[directly and indirectly) have caused these people more than enough problems decade after decade, both need to concentrate more on crafting a Foreign Policy that works in the 21st Century. It wouldn't hurt if they stop using fear as a weapon to control, and letting greed and power be their motivator. Oh yeah, and the other guys, they have a mighty military and about 200 nukes, they'll be fine...if not, boom goes the dynamite and the world is screwed. shrugs

I'll be blunt, the USA, UK and some other countries have never cared about the people of Egypt, just their own national interests. Now it is time for the people to care about themselves, their children and their futures!

[ms_m]

Marv I was referring to the history of both countries and their policy decisions toward Egypt over the years. They care if simply because of their respective interest but to be fair, here in America, I've met people that didn't even know Egypt was in Africa. If I start pointing fingers it wouldn't be only at the government.

[ms_m]

RobbK you're right, they have been under a dictatorship for years and living in fear for the same amount of time but now they are fearless and awake. If and when they finally get from under the current regime, I'm not concerned they will fall prey to more repression under any system. They have a long and hard road ahead of them but I've been extremely impressed with their tenacity, and determination, especially the youth.

Tunisia and Egypt have stirred a spark in that part of the world, it doesn't have to be a bad thing but a force for good if our world leaders and the people they lead could get their collective heads out of their butts. That's not directed at you but people in general.

[ms_m]

Robbk, CNN International had a discussion with an Egyptian professor that explained how the Muslim Brotherhood are not the Taliban and not Al Qaeda and how authoritarian rulers falsely exploit MB as a bogyman in order to justify their hold onto power. I can't embed the video but the link below will take you to the transcript.

http://archives.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1102/05/cnr.07.html

Another panel discussion I saw also pointed out how the Western World is constantly comparing Egypt with Iran as oppose to pointing out the successful integration of Muslims in politics in Turkey. He also mentioned how the West hasn’t batted an eye at the Muslin Brotherhood’s involvement in the ongoing Tunisian transition.

[smark21]

I"m a cynic, but whatever and whoever replaces Mubarack in Egypt will be just as corrupt and brutal as Mubarack. The only difference is that different groups will be in favor of the regime and benefit from the gravy train of favors and corruption,and the means and devices to keep the remainder of the population subjected may differ in how they are applied and used. As the cliche goes, the more things change, the more they stay the same. I predict in 5 years, many of the courageous people demonstrating in Egypt will be very disillusioned with what they end up getting and discontent will fester until a new uprising occurs, whenever that may be.

[ms_m]

RobbK this essay is part of an excellent series you and Bobkayli might find interesting

Spreading Egyptian values

About this series: Adalah [[Arabic for "justice") is a diary series about the Middle East, with special [[but not exclusive) emphasis on the Arab-Israeli conflict. The authors of this series believe that a just resolution respecting the rights and dignity of both Palestinians and Israelis is the only viable option for peace

http://www.newleftproject.org/index....gyptian_values


Here is another interesting op ed although quite possibly controversial

A U.S. accepted by the Arab world is good for Israel

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition...srael-1.341500

[marv2]

Marv I was referring to the history of both countries and their policy decisions toward Egypt over the years. They care if simply because of their respective interest but to be fair, here in America, I've met people that didn't even know Egypt was in Africa. If I start pointing fingers it wouldn't be only at the government.

You are so right ms_m. Taking what you said a step further, many do not know that the term "Middle East" was just a military term used to designate that area of the World. It wasmade up by some U.S. Military offical years ago. Egypt is an African nation, as well as Algers, Tunisia, etc,etc .

[ms_m]

Marv you've lost me but it's my fault not yours since I wrote more of a Reader's Digest version of what I was actually thinking.

My point has to do with how countries have played a part in where we are now in terms of Egypt and the region in general....ie, the colonization of lands by Britain[[as well as France) the dividing of said land, our involvement and Foreign Policies Concerning the area etc....

I should have made that clearer but it's a complicated issue that often leads to controversy and I just didn't want to go down that road. Plus I tend to think faster than I type. Because I'm a lousy typist, I often take the easy road out in expressing myself.

Bottom line, we've had the same basic Foreign Policy since Woodrow Wilson. The world has changed and imo we haven't kept up, not too mention, our policies are often fueled by public opinion...

but I'm about to go down another road so forgive me. LOL

[bobkayli]

Just to clarify what I said about democracy. My [[limited) understanding is that Egypt actually is a democracy. Democracy has however been perverted out of shape because of a 'state of emergency' which has lasted 30 years.

Ms M I did not express myself clearly about Mubarek. He has said he will stay until September which gives everyone time. I should have added that clearly if a solution can be found sooner, then he should go sooner. If he goes without a solution in place, then the military will almost be obliged to assume control because there will be no-one else.

This still has a long way to run. Today a mass is united against Mubarek but it is not clear what they actually stand for except for wanting him out. When that happens, I imagine that many groups will want many different things. How that pans out, I don't see. Talking allows that to evolve. I am not in any way clear that there is a mandate for democracy as we know it. I am even less clear that any election would be fair and free for all the reasons RobbK has indicated..

The military seem most able to assume control at the moment, the religious element probably a close second. Any solution must involve these two elements and ignores them at their peril. Already todays talks show this emerging.

If all can keep their heads, there will be elections of some sort. To push too far too quickly carries a great risk of de-stabilisation which, i know i'm repeating myself but would almost force the military to assume control to establish some semblance of order.

I do think though, that whatever emerges, there will be a less pro-western stance in Egypt coming out of this. this has many other potential consequences outside of Egypt. There will be another series of considerations to be made as a result on Israel, the Gulf, the Arab world and Islam and all that may mean. It is all going to become a tad more complicated.

As regards David Camerons speech on multi-culturalism, he once again is showing his lack of political skill. To make such a speech when in UK there was a mass demonstration by the English Defence League in a town with a large Asian immigrant population and also while the Egypt situation is evolving seems naive and ill-timed to say the least. He is proving a lightweight on the international stage.

Ms M: You'll tell me I'm full of something but I'm always glad to see that you have lost none of your political passion and considered reasoning. What's going on in Egypt is too important to behave otherwise.

[ms_m]

I"m a cynic, but whatever and whoever replaces Mubarack in Egypt will be just as corrupt and brutal as Mubarack. The only difference is that different groups will be in favor of the regime and benefit from the gravy train of favors and corruption,and the means and devices to keep the remainder of the population subjected may differ in how they are applied and used. As the cliche goes, the more things change, the more they stay the same. I predict in 5 years, many of the courageous people demonstrating in Egypt will be very disillusioned with what they end up getting and discontent will fester until a new uprising occurs, whenever that may be.

Smark21, I’ve been thinking about your statement all day. On a certain level I can understand your cynicism but I’d really like to know where that cynicism comes from.

The youth in Egypt have been quite active since 2005 and they have staged protest off and on for years. American media hasn’t really reported it so in the minds of some, I wonder how many people understand how unprecedented and amazing this has been.

This particular protest caught a lot of people off guard and I think that would include the protesters themselves. It was what some have called, organic in nature and took a life of it’s on. I think that also explains why there wasn’t any organize leadership in place.

Previously they would protest, it would end, activist were thrown in jail and or killed, concessions and promises were made and broken, a moment of quiet and it would start all over again.

This went beyond that, something in these people simply snapped. I’m sure the revolt in Tunisia played a large role but I also think it was as simple as being, sick and tired of being sick and tired.

No one knows how this will end but even if they are not successful this time, the lives of these people have been forever changed and I do not believe they will give up. They will keep coming, keep growing and keep learning.

If it is successful and the new leaders are going against the will of the people, yep, they will take to the streets again. I see that as doing what many groups here in the USA play lip service to, taking back their country. To me, that's a good thing.

[ms_m]

Always good to talk to you Bobkayli.

Democracy in name, autocracy in reality.

I really think Suleiman is calling the shots and it would not surprise me if he has been for years. [[rumors have said Mubarak is in poor health and has been for awhile)

But I wouldn't trust Suleiman anymore than Mubarak. I'm on the side of thought that negations should not even take place until Murbarak and Suleiman step down. How the heck do you trust people who do not have any problems shooting you down like a dog in front of the entire world? Not to mention, many of the protesters feel like they have nothing to loose because if they walk away now and the regime remains in charge, they are pretty much dead men/women walking.

I understand the economy is loosing massive amounts of money and I understand people want their "normal" lives back but normal doesn't necessarily equate to good.

Cameron has annoyed me but not half as much as Blair....ughhhhhhhhhhhhh

...and to tell you the truth as much as I support President Obama I'm not entirely happy with him either. Intellectually I understand the complicated position he's in but emotionally...at some point, if you're going to talk the talk, you've got to walk, the walk...glad I'm not him right now...shrugs....we shall see how this all plays out.

Oh yeah and as long as Egyptian State TV exist, too many people will continue to be brainwashed.

[ms_m]

BTW Bobkayli I think complications would occur but they don't have to be insurmountable.

I think a lot of excellent points were made in this article

A U.S. accepted by the Arab world is good for Israel

[bobkayli]

I'm maybe oversimplistic but I remember the film 'the life of brian'. There all of the palestinians hated the romans so much that it became a focal point. In reality they hated each other more and the romans were probably the force guaranteeing peace. granted this is real life and Egypt rather than Palestine but the lesson hit home to me.
I was listening to a BBC radio discussion with egyptians from several sides on the way home in the car. They all have such different perceptions of what they want post-mubarek. Even the Muslim Brotherhood itself has many factions and is far from united. Those in the square protesting are very brave but remain a minority. There are 85 million people in egypt.
I think the US keeping out of the fray is probably best for the US long term. There was a clear view that foreigners should keep out of what they considered a strictly egyptian affair, it was almost the only thing that they agreed on. The military have played it smart thus far but the minute it turns ugly, they have the resources to exercise control and they would have a justification. There also seems to be an elite that still supports the existing regime, what sway they have is not clear.
I just think that they should all be careful what they wish for because the real problems will begin when Mubarek goes.
hopefully the talking can continue even if Mubarek and co cannot be trusted. You can only talk with who is on the other side of the table and the alternative seems to be fighting them which will solve nothing.

[ms_m]

At this point bobkayli I agree the US should stay out of it, completely out of it.

When you listen to the people on the ground, they don't even recognize the opposition that's stepping forth now, including the Muslin Brotherhood. They have put together their own committee members and stand by their resolve they will not even come to the table until Mubarak leaves.

It doesn't have to be chaos if the Army would pick a side but the pull of the status quo is strong and they want to keep their power too.

Everyone has an agenda and jumped on the bandwagon either deliberately or to protect their interest. The Brotherhood wasn't even involved initially thinking the protest would never get anywhere or attract attention, which is how it's been in the past.

The media focuses on Tahrir Square as if those guys are the only ones involved while ignoring protest that continue to go on all around the country.

Initially, everyone was running around saying there would be a vacum and the Muslim Brotherhood would co op the movement. Well there has been a vacum and it has been cop opted... by the Mubarak Regime, The West, Israel and all the opposition parties trying to get a seat at the corrupt table.

Mubarak throws people a bone, Suleiman directs this smoke and screen sham of a negotiation and the ones that have died and the ones standing their ground are being sold down the drain.....

and the beat goes on!