Mary's Going to see Diana's Vegas Show?

[RanRan79]

"Honey, if that ain't enough thats too bad".

That Florence, still tellin it like T.I.is all these years later. LOL

[blackguy69]

We'll have to agree to disagree on that one BG.

Look at the ed Sullivan September 1966 then look at the Hollywood palace one year later there is a difference. At the time Flo was let go Mary was a size 7 and shrinking. I agree that Mary gained a few pounds but She didn't stay that size for long.

[RanRan79]

Look at the ed Sullivan September 1966 then look at the Hollywood palace one year later there is a difference. At the time Flo was let go Mary was a size 7 and shrinking. I agree that Mary gained a few pounds but She didn't stay that size for long.

Oh yeah BG, I agree that Mary lost some weight. What we'll have to agree to disagree on is Flo's weight. My comment was in response to that. Sorry for the confusion.

[vgalindo]

Don't bother BG. You see how of all the things I wrote in my fake Diana interview the one thing they zeroed in on was my reference to Diana Ross being one third of the Supremes. That's how much hate exists for Flo and Mary. If you aren't saying anything that maligns them in someway, it's a problem for some. And apparently some folks don't know what "one-third" is.

Noun. 1. one-third - one of three equal parts of a divisible whole

Before DRATS no one even knew Diana Ross' name who didn't also know Florence Ballard and Mary Wilson. That was the whole point of changing the name to Diana Ross and the Supremes. Gordy wanted to elevate her above Flo [[and then Cindy) and Mary in the public's mind, because until then, while Diana was the lead singer and the indisputable voice that captured the public's ears, it was the look, story and personalities of all three that captured the public's heart. If Diana were more than one-third she could've went solo in 1966. If Diana were more than one-third even after the name change, and the whole thing had been all about her, when she left the group, the Supremes never would have had continued success while Diana's first show couldn't sale out with a 20 dollar giveaway gimmick.

But that's the part they chose to focus on. Not Diana telling the haters to go to hell, but the part where I say she was one-third of the group, which is a fact, not an opinion. It's math. I guess these folks are so smart they're rewriting mathematics. What is this, that new NEW math?

"I was one third of the greatest female group ever and neither of my singing partners were slouches in beauty, voice or personality."

That, ladies and gentlemen, is the Supremes, told in fake voice by one-third of the Supremes, Diana Ross. And I think from here on out that's how I will refer to her: Diana Ross, one-third of the Supremes. Ya know, cuz I'm feeling petty.

Who are you referring to as hating Mary and Florence? I love all the Supremes. But it is stupid not to recognize Diana Ross as the lead singer. It is her voice on all those number 1 records and if you feel that wasn't the main reason for their super success than I can say the same thing on how you all hate Diana Ross for their success by diminishing her as the lead singer. Come on now how many people buy a record for the background singing? Proof "Love Child" and my favorite "Someday we'll be together". The Supremes were a beautiful package together but to say they were all equal is stretching it. You never hear the same things about Smokey, Gladys, Michael, and Martha. How were they built that was so different? The Supremes may have shared leads before they got their contract with Motown but once they started recording Diana was the lead period. Even Bubba got a lead on some of the Gladys Knight and the Pips albums. Lol. But everyone knew that Gladys was the star!!

[blackguy69]

Who are you referring to as hating Mary and Florence? I love all the Supremes. But it is stupid not to recognize Diana Ross as the lead singer. It is her voice on all those number 1 records and if you feel that wasn't the main reason for their super success than I can say the same thing on how you all hate Diana Ross for their success by diminishing her as the lead singer. Come on now how many people buy a record for the background singing? Proof "Love Child" and my favorite "Someday we'll be together". The Supremes were a beautiful package together but to say they were all equal is stretching it. You never hear the same things about Smokey, Gladys, Michael, and Martha. How were they built that was so different? The Supremes may have shared leads before they got their contract with Motown but once they started recording Diana was the lead period. Even Bubba got a lead on some of the Gladys Knight and the Pips albums. Lol. But everyone knew that Gladys was the star!!

He wasn't hating on Diana. It was never I'm Diana Ross and they are the supremes. It was always the supremes even with the name change Diana always said were the supremes. No one is denying that it's Diana's voice that lead the group but it was and always a group effort [[even with songs like love child and someday, even though Mary and Cindy didn't sing on it, they still promoted the song). Like I said if it was all about Diana and not the others, it would've set up that way from the start. But it wasn't.

[blackguy69]

Also to and others rest of the question, it was always Martha and the vandellas. Martha was always the lead. It was never Michael and the Jacksons. Michael and jermaine basically split the lead. In The case of smokey the other miracles wanted smokey out front as the same with Gladys and the pips.

[jobeterob]

In concert there were 3 TIL the last year or 2

On record you got Diana and heaven knows who

[RanRan79]

Who are you referring to as hating Mary and Florence? I love all the Supremes. But it is stupid not to recognize Diana Ross as the lead singer. It is her voice on all those number 1 records and if you feel that wasn't the main reason for their super success than I can say the same thing on how you all hate Diana Ross for their success by diminishing her as the lead singer. Come on now how many people buy a record for the background singing? Proof "Love Child" and my favorite "Someday we'll be together". The Supremes were a beautiful package together but to say they were all equal is stretching it. You never hear the same things about Smokey, Gladys, Michael, and Martha. How were they built that was so different? The Supremes may have shared leads before they got their contract with Motown but once they started recording Diana was the lead period. Even Bubba got a lead on some of the Gladys Knight and the Pips albums. Lol. But everyone knew that Gladys was the star!!

Your accusation that I hate Diana Ross is so absurd that I nearly avoided responding to you. My love for Diana Ross, one of the greatest voices and entertainers of our time and of all time, is so well documented in this forum that you might have a better chance of finding evidence to support a case that I'm a fan of Donald Trump. You will not find a post where I suggest that Diana's voice fronting those records was not a big part of their success. In fact in the very post that you replied to, I say "...while Diana was the lead singer and the indisputable voice that captured the public's ears...". Perhaps I shouldn't be too hard on you. Maybe I should assume you missed that part? I hope so.

Whatever the case, I just think it weird that my comment about Diana being one-third of the Supremes, which is, again, a fact, not an opinion, seems to have gotten under some skins. I could see if I wrote that Diana was a backup singer in the Supremes. That would be inaccurate. [[Unless of course one were referring to the group's work as background session vocalists.) That would be something for folks to debate. But me saying she was one third of that group [[again, that's exactly what she was) says nothing about her singing, nothing about her relationship to the public, nothing about her star quality. Nothing. Nada. Zilch. Zero. IMO my comment allowed people to spin the narrative into something else, to create controversy where there shouldn't be any. Of course if you pay attention to the current conversations around hot button topics unrelated to music, you'll understand that this is a common thing to do these days.

So let me state again, ya know, for the record: Diana Ross was the lead singer of a group she was one-third of. Just like Levi was one-fourth of the Tops and Wanda was one-third of the Marvelettes and Michael was one-fifth [[or 20 percent) of the Jackson Five. No, Martha was not any fraction or percentage of the Vandellas. She was Martha Reeves or plain old Martha and with her were the Vandellas. Martha was, however, a fourth of the Del-Phis.

I'm finding it really strange that anyone has taken issue with what I said about Diana Ross, one-third of the Supremes.

[RanRan79]

In concert there were 3 TIL the last year or 2

On record you got Diana and heaven knows who

Nah, we pretty much know who Rob.

[jobeterob]

Nah, we pretty much know who Rob.

Mary Cindy Florence Marlene Jackie louvain
Johnny Bristol

Who else?

[vgalindo]

Your accusation that I hate Diana Ross is so absurd that I nearly avoided responding to you. My love for Diana Ross, one of the greatest voices and entertainers of our time and of all time, is so well documented in this forum that you might have a better chance of finding evidence to support a case that I'm a fan of Donald Trump. You will not find a post where I suggest that Diana's voice fronting those records was not a big part of their success. In fact in the very post that you replied to, I say "...while Diana was the lead singer and the indisputable voice that captured the public's ears...". Perhaps I shouldn't be too hard on you. Maybe I should assume you missed that part? I hope so.

Whatever the case, I just think it weird that my comment about Diana being one-third of the Supremes, which is, again, a fact, not an opinion, seems to have gotten under some skins. I could see if I wrote that Diana was a backup singer in the Supremes. That would be inaccurate. [[Unless of course one were referring to the group's work as background session vocalists.) That would be something for folks to debate. But me saying she was one third of that group [[again, that's exactly what she was) says nothing about her singing, nothing about her relationship to the public, nothing about her star quality. Nothing. Nada. Zilch. Zero. IMO my comment allowed people to spin the narrative into something else, to create controversy where there shouldn't be any. Of course if you pay attention to the current conversations around hot button topics unrelated to music, you'll understand that this is a common thing to do these days.

So let me state again, ya know, for the record: Diana Ross was the lead singer of a group she was one-third of. Just like Levi was one-fourth of the Tops and Wanda was one-third of the Marvelettes and Michael was one-fifth [[or 20 percent) of the Jackson Five. No, Martha was not any fraction or percentage of the Vandellas. She was Martha Reeves or plain old Martha and with her were the Vandellas. Martha was, however, a fourth of the Del-Phis.

I'm finding it really strange that anyone has taken issue with what I said about Diana Ross, one-third of the Supremes.

Ran Ran. I know you are a fan of Diana Ross and you don't bash her like some others here on this forum. I just didn't like the part of your post were you stated all this hate towards Mary and Florence. Just because I agreed with Jimi post doesn't mean I have hate for Florence or Mary.

[TomatoTom123]

and Michael was one-fifth [[or 20 percent) of the Jackson Five.

Excellent fraction-percentage conversion skills there RanRan

[PeaceNHarmony]

In concert there were 3 TIL the last year or 2

On record you got Diana and heaven knows who

It's been a surprise to me since reading this forum just how few DRATS recordings billed as 'The Supremes' actually featured any Supremes other than Diana Ross. It would be interesting to have a full & annotated list by each song. Of course F-M-C all were integral to the group as their images were so striking and they appeared in the live act.

[RanRan79]

Mary Cindy Florence Marlene Jackie louvain
Johnny Bristol

Who else?

My calculations would say mostly Flo and Mary, followed by the Andantes, followed by Flo, Mary and the Andantes "together". I can't decide who actually recorded more backing vocals: Barbara or Cindy. I have a couple of hours this morning where I will be somewhere in which finding something to kill hours of time is a necessity. Since nearly all of my Supremes music has been uploaded onto my laptop, I might use that time to compile my list of who is or isn't singing background in the Supremes and then you and I, or whomever wants to chime in, can compare ears and notes. I may make it a separate thread and hope for all hope's sakes that people can discuss and remain civil. Fingers crossed.

[RanRan79]

Ran Ran. I know you are a fan of Diana Ross and you don't bash her like some others here on this forum. I just didn't like the part of your post were you stated all this hate towards Mary and Florence. Just because I agreed with Jimi post doesn't mean I have hate for Florence or Mary.

If you don't hate Mary and Flo, then my apologies V. But the offense that posters took to my comment certainly makes the case that if someone isn't proclaiming Diana Ross to be the greatest star and Mary and Flo nothing more than hood ornaments, the problem lies with the negative feelings they have for Flo and Mary. In my mind it's the same with the ones who come for anyone who has something positive to say about Diana Ross as the lead singer of the Supremes. It's like a person can't talk about her attributes to the group without dissing Flo and Mary, and I know personally that isn't true. But what I said was that Diana was one-third of the group. It wasn't a diss. It wasn't designed to downplay her role as the lead vocalist, so the backlash became rather silly IMO. Do you not see how irrational the responses to my comment have been?

[blackguy69]

My calculations would say mostly Flo and Mary, followed by the Andantes, followed by Flo, Mary and the Andantes "together". I can't decide who actually recorded more backing vocals: Barbara or Cindy. I have a couple of hours this morning where I will be somewhere in which finding something to kill hours of time is a necessity. Since nearly all of my Supremes music has been uploaded onto my laptop, I might use that time to compile my list of who is or isn't singing background in the Supremes and then you and I, or whomever wants to chime in, can compare ears and notes. I may make it a separate thread and hope for all hope's sakes that people can discuss and remain civil. Fingers crossed.

I'm assuming Cindy since she continues into the 70's but I think it was mentioned a long while ago that Mary and Cindy recorded more than we realized .

[RanRan79]

Excellent fraction-percentage conversion skills there RanRan

I'm a regular mathematician Tom.

[floyjoy678]

It might be easier to compile a list of songs Florence and/or Mary did NOT sing on. Then you have songs where they're with the Andantes or it's Mary with a couple of Andantes or Flo with a couple of Andantes.

[milven]

There are so many mixes and versions of these songs out there after fifty years. Which ones will be used in the compilation of the list?

I'm an original fan who bought the 45's when they came out, and the mono albums. I later replaced the mono albums with stereo and found different mixes. My biggest disapointment there was I HEAR A SYMPHONY, which had the background vocals muffled.

There was a revelation here once that Flo and Mary were not on STOP IN THE NAME OF LOVE. I forgot what conclusion the forumn came to. Were they on the original 45 release? Was it sweetened with other voices? Did they actually record the song and then have their voices replaced by others?

[blackguy69]

It was mentioned that Mary and Flo were on the album version but not the 45. Also someone mentioned that louvian said they sang on it along with Flo and Mary. I'm incline to believe that it was Mary, Flo and the andantes

[PeaceNHarmony]

There are so many mixes and versions of these songs out there after fifty years. Which ones will be used in the compilation of the list?

I'm an original fan who bought the 45's when they came out, and the mono albums. I later replaced the mono albums with stereo and found different mixes. My biggest disapointment there was I HEAR A SYMPHONY, which had the background vocals muffled.

There was a revelation here once that Flo and Mary were not on STOP IN THE NAME OF LOVE. I forgot what conclusion the forumn came to. Were they on the original 45 release? Was it sweetened with other voices? Did they actually record the song and then have their voices replaced by others?

In fact, the multiplicity of takes that were eventually released would be a prime reason for a concordance of this sort. I would be interested in the released iterations. Of course this information would always be contested by certain fans [[as evidenced by some of the responses on this thread alone).

[jobeterob]

Could be a massive list.

Brad was pretty good at who was on what mix, who might have been on what mix and how many different mixes their might have been.

Amongst long time fans, I think it is fair to say that some of the favorites were the songs where you have at least Florence in the background singing against Diana - that mix of voices carried a lot of appeal. It was not really ever there again in that manner after about You Keep Me Hangin On. It resurfaced again in Love Child and Someday We'll be Together - but of course, it was a quite different sound.

[TheMotownManiac]

Flo began to gain weight by early 1966 and it shows. By summer, she had a small gut as evidenced in the YCHL video at Palisades Park. If you notice her in the August R&H taping, she looks great in the red sequins. 3 months later she is filling it out in a more robust manner, but still is nothing short of sensational. Three months later on Andy Williams, she again is a bit fuller in the hip and face. Four months later on Ed Sullivan, she is at her biggest and they are wearing empire waist chiffon gowns - compare her face changes from YCHL TO The Happening 8 months later. I can’t tell enough if she qualifies for the moniker “fat” because the gown hides so much, but she is clearly much bigger and, IMHO, not at her best facially.

I can see the annoyance she caused by growing so much so fast, especially with the new gowns they had invested in and had coming. Can you imagine Flo in the Reflections dresses from Hollywood Palace or Ernie Ford? No. So, more chiffon would have to have been in the works and I believe those pink things they rarely wore were for Flo’s benefit. And if I were Mary and Diana and had just spent a fortune on gowns that one day would be legend, I’d be pissed at having to wear old lady chiffon as well, although I do like those yellow gowns.

Tony Turner told how Flo was on speed to lose weight, so she was aware of the problem, but some people gain more from alcohol than others and she may not have been aware that it could be a major culprit in the issue. 50 years later, we understand nutrition, metabolism and many of the variables that effect weight which The Supremes were not privy to. The fact that Flo did not fit well enough in her tux didn’t help her cause with Berry. In summation, there’s no way to spin away Flo’s weight issue, and her size compared to the others is a fair one for the look of the group. Look how silly MSS looked sometimes just with their height differences.

I’m of The Saint Flo group, but I’m not blind either. I just wish they had been able to rest Flo, get her some help, and put her back in the group without kicking her out, but emotions were high, stress was rampant and everyone involved was spread pretty thin. I really don’t see a villain here.

[PeaceNHarmony]

Flo began to gain weight by early 1966 and it shows. By summer, she had a small gut as evidenced in the YCHL video at Palisades Park. If you notice her in the August R&H taping, she looks great in the red sequins. 3 months later she is filling it out in a more robust manner, but still is nothing short of sensational. Three months later on Andy Williams, she again is a bit fuller in the hip and face. Four months later on Ed Sullivan, she is at her biggest and they are wearing empire waist chiffon gowns - compare her face changes from YCHL TO The Happening 8 months later. I can’t tell enough if she qualifies for the moniker “fat” because the gown hides so much, but she is clearly much bigger and, IMHO, not at her best facially.

I can see the annoyance she caused by growing so much so fast, especially with the new gowns they had invested in and had coming. Can you imagine Flo in the Reflections dresses from Hollywood Palace or Ernie Ford? No. So, more chiffon would have to have been in the works and I believe those pink things they rarely wore were for Flo’s benefit. And if I were Mary and Diana and had just spent a fortune on gowns that one day would be legend, I’d be pissed at having to wear old lady chiffon as well, although I do like those yellow gowns.

Tony Turner told how Flo was on speed to lose weight, so she was aware of the problem, but some people gain more from alcohol than others and she may not have been aware that it could be a major culprit in the issue. 50 years later, we understand nutrition, metabolism and many of the variables that effect weight which The Supremes were not privy to. The fact that Flo did not fit well enough in her tux didn’t help her cause with Berry. In summation, there’s no way to spin away Flo’s weight issue, and her size compared to the others is a fair one for the look of the group. Look how silly MSS looked sometimes just with their height differences.

I’m of The Saint Flo group, but I’m not blind either. I just wish they had been able to rest Flo, get her some help, and put her back in the group without kicking her out, but emotions were high, stress was rampant and everyone involved was spread pretty thin. I really don’t see a villain here.

You've got it - the only villain was the POS who assaulted Florence. His name is known and he's gotten a free pass even in death. But that's a man-thang, isn't it? Men most always pass blame on to a woman, be it the victim or a more convenient [[and in this case, successful) woman. It wasn't Berry Gordy's desire for perfection, nor was it Diana Ross' unmatchable voice, charisma, and work ethic, nor Mary Wilson's self-centered waffling and 'where's the party' attitude. The assault was what drove Florence down the bad road. http://popgates.com/the-devil-and-reggie-harding/

[TomatoTom123]

I'm a regular mathematician Tom.

I can tell

[RanRan79]

Rob the thread is up about the Supremes background credits. Feel free to chime in. [[That goes for everyone.)

[TomatoTom123]

Rob the thread is up about the Supremes background credits. Feel free to chime in. [[That goes for everyone.)

LOL, sorry RanRan, I can see you're trying to have a serious discussion here and I'm just making stoopid posts, haaaaaaaaa

[RanRan79]

LOL, sorry RanRan, I can see you're trying to have a serious discussion here and I'm just making stoopid posts, haaaaaaaaa

What else is new?

[TomatoTom123]

What else is new?

Your other thread which I have now hijacked with a continuing theme of silliness? Lol

[imakicola]

No to me real maturity isn’t just always telling it like it is. That almost implies that a person thinks they are right and wants to shove their beliefs onto other people. And that a person can just impulsively run their mouth all the time. I think real maturity includes being honest and “telling it like it is” when NECESSARY, but also knowing when to pick your battles, when to let things go, and having the patience to be able to do whichever, while maintaining your dignity. Being able to consider that you may be wrong, before saying you’re right. Being able to have a disagreement with your best friend or your spouse, and not having to get your point across at all costs. Sacrificing when it is good to, and knowing when to insist your side be heard. Just my two cents. Because any three year old can just always “tell it like it is.” To me being an adult is knowing when to do something and biting your tongue sometimes. But only when you should. Speaking up when you need to. And sometimes being the bigger person and not engaging in something.

[jobeterob]

Good post Imakicola - discretion is wise I agree

I was told by someone that knows that Mary Wilson was at a private fundraiser in the Ukraine as Diana Ross’s Vegas run ended

So she could not attend

[TheMotownManiac]

Rob, Mary’s fundraiser was in Massachusetts that weekend but she still could have made several of the shows after her public comment if she chose to. She was advised to re-think the situation, and did.

[jobeterob]

Rob, Mary’s fundraiser was in Massachusetts that weekend but she still could have made several of the shows after her public comment if she chose to. She was advised to re-think the situation, and did.

Okay well makes sense; likely some miscommunication

[daviddh]

There are so many mixes and versions of these songs out there after fifty years. Which ones will be used in the compilation of the list?

I'm an original fan who bought the 45's when they came out, and the mono albums. I later replaced the mono albums with stereo and found different mixes. My biggest disapointment there was I HEAR A SYMPHONY, which had the background vocals muffled.

There was a revelation here once that Flo and Mary were not on STOP IN THE NAME OF LOVE. I forgot what conclusion the forumn came to. Were they on the original 45 release? Was it sweetened with other voices? Did they actually record the song and then have their voices replaced by others?

I read the Andantees were added in the mix with Flo and Mary.?

[TheMotownManiac]

I read the Andantees were added in the mix with Flo and Mary.?

The conclusion is that Mary and flo are not on the 45 at all, but were added to the stereo mix for the album. This came directly from George and Andy…… Now a few people, who don’t want this to be true, are ignoring what George and Andy are saying, in this case only mind you, and are clinging to the fact that Louvain said that they were all there together with Mary and Florence when they did that session. What she doesn’t know, is what was used in the final mix. I agree with George and Andy I do not hear mary and Flo on it. I am positive that I hear Marlene on back in my arms again and symphony also.

[PeaceNHarmony]

The conclusion is that Mary and flo are not on the 45 at all, but were added to the stereo mix for the album. This came directly from George and Andy…… Now a few people, who don’t want this to be true, are ignoring what George and Andy are saying, in this case only mind you, and are clinging to the fact that Louvain said that they were all there together with Mary and Florence when they did that session. What she doesn’t know, is what was used in the final mix. I agree with George and Andy I do not hear mary and Flo on it. I am positive that I hear Marlene on back in my arms again and symphony also.

I wonder if the technology available at the time was advanced enough to smoothly [[and inexpensively!) edit single voices in and out of mixes. Anyone know?

[bradsupremes]

Rob, Mary’s fundraiser was in Massachusetts that weekend but she still could have made several of the shows after her public comment if she chose to. She was advised to re-think the situation, and did.

Mary actually was out of country in Ukraine for a fundraiser for disabled children.

[floyjoy678]

The conclusion is that Mary and flo are not on the 45 at all, but were added to the stereo mix for the album. This came directly from George and Andy…… Now a few people, who don’t want this to be true, are ignoring what George and Andy are saying, in this case only mind you, and are clinging to the fact that Louvain said that they were all there together with Mary and Florence when they did that session. What she doesn’t know, is what was used in the final mix. I agree with George and Andy I do not hear mary and Flo on it. I am positive that I hear Marlene on back in my arms again and symphony also.

The 45 version and album version sound exactly the same except that one is in mono and the other is in stereo lol

There are an andante or two on symphony. Flo's definitely there, she sticks out over whoever else is there. Back in my arms again, I once heard a rumour Mary's not on the song but I only hear two voices: Florence Ballard and Mary Wilson. Hdh said they used additional singers sometimes but always with Mary and Florence.

[Boogiedown]

Hi Ran. Sorry to be so delayed in this response process, I don't have daily access to my computer. The thread's moved on but I've just a couple more comments so I'll give this one more round with my conclusion , this time I'm first black, and then green .

"Why "of course"?"

By most- if not all- accounts, everyone in the know could see that Tommy couldn't be trusted. So I would think it smart on Diana's part that if Tommy was attempting to act as a go between, she would wisely avoid that situation.
Quite confusing indeed. You've said that Tommy is out of the house with the divorce pending , so I don't understand how he has any say or would even be around to have any say. Besides wouldn't our maturing Diana know that the thing to do at this point would be to let lawyers on both sides handle it.
"Also, he and Flo are still together at this point, but they are losing the house . So , Tommy doesn't work?"

I've been under the impression that Flo losing the house happened after she filed for divorce from Tommy, so no, I don't believe they were together during this juncture. Cue back to the part in a previous post where I say that Tommy trying to intercept Diana's check doesn't make sense. ya That's one of the reasons why. As for Tommy and working, I think he always kept a job. I don't recall anything about him being out of work, except maybe a period of time after he was no longer Flo's manager.
This is troubling, no matter the mother, a working man allows his three children to lose their home, to wind up out in the streets? Does this sound like a fatherly person you'd want to reunite with later?
"Very odd. [[and not very mature) Why not ??"

Another part of the story that doesn't make sense. And this will tie into the part where you questioned my remark about Florence being unaware of Diana offering assistance. Flo told Peter Benjaminson that if Diana were ever down on her luck and needed anything that Flo would do whatever she could. But Flo supposed that Diana didn't feel the same way, implying that she believed Diana knew she was having difficulties but didn't try to help. I'm taking Flo's words on this. If Diana did attempt to offer help, Florence never knew about it. If Flo didn't know about it , how did Diana go about attempting to help exactly ? Seems like all you do is chase down the mortgage company and pay them the damn mortgage. This calls into question Maxine writing in her book that Flo refused to answer Diana's calls. Other than Maxine flat out lying, the only other explanation for her version of events is the mixing up of time periods. Maxine's story jumps all over the place in her book, and there are times when it's apparent that the timeline she created was a bit off. So I'm thinking any story where Diana is calling and Flo is refusing to take the call may have happened while Flo was still a Supreme and shit had gotten crazy. Although there is one other scenario that I just thought about: Flo claimed that prior to her and Diana's last conversation in 1975, the last time the two of them spoke was in 1971. 1971 was also when Flo sued Motown, naming her former singing partners in the suit, including her claim that Diana maliciously ousted her from the group. Could be that Diana called Flo about the suit and for awhile she dodged her calls before finally speaking. Or maybe they spoke on the phone and Flo didn't like what Diana had to say and when Diana kept trying, Flo refused the calls. At this point Maxine is dead, Flo is dead, so the only other person who could possibly shed factual light here is Diana. Boogie you may be right about the story being twisted. sure seems like it!

"I would say this claimed house saving effort [[while if true was quite mature on Diana's part) sounds about as halfhearted as Diana's current search for Cindy."

I don't believe Diana ever does anything halfhearted, not when it comes to helping people. It's the one part of her life I wish people talked about more. But! , you have said earlier in this thread that you believe Diana is being truthful when she claims she's looked but can't find Cindy. You also said its very easy these days to find somebody if you've got the resources to do so [[as Diana would). So for Diana to look and not find her = half-hearted effort .
It just doesn't add up for me that someone who is really trying to pay a mortgage can't pull it off. [[especially if they started the conversation with, "Hi This is Diana Ross")

"Doesn't seem like the cards were going to line up. Besides all the obstacles you've mentioned, she was going to be a mother for years and years yet. And she'd have to once again contend with that historically abusive husband [[ who seems to have heroically reentered the family picture when there was new found hope and new found money. Did this guy now have a job ?)"

It wasn't in the cards because the woman died several months later. I'm curious to know what you think she should have been doing in order to label her intention to get back into singing as "in the cards" probably everything she wasn't . I would never advise anyone to jump right into anything of that significance. And having a spouse who clearly was unreliable would be the last reason for Florence to leave those children. LOL Well you make my point . Tommy is a big part of the problem here. see below.



And bad decisions does not negate a person's maturity. Florence was an abused woman in the 1970s. Where abused women go, she was the rule, not the exception. Domestic abuse is much more widely understood today and yet 10 million women annually are victims of it. Returning to an abusive spouse doesn't denote a period of mature growth no more than Diana's alcoholism and drunk driving charge at 50 something suddenly made her an immature woman. Uh , yes that does. On both counts , Diana' and Flo's. Now if your position is that once mature always mature decisions, then we'll have to agree to disagree as I do not believe that's even possible. well if you can be mature and still do immature things , doesn't that render being mature useless.

"And returning this to your initial point about how much more mature Flo had become by then , how much more resolved , and therefore ready to now get back into the swing of things, sorry, I just don't see it and its especially this whole Tommy thing that can't be easily ignored here ."

For me Tommy can be easily ignored. see above If anything Tommy's presence would've been even more motivation to try again at a singing career since he so obviously loved the potential meal ticket. as in "Get out there and sing Flo or I'll beat the s*%t out of ya!" Bottom line for me is that at age 32 Flo was figuring things out. She received mental help [[something most people, let alone Black women, in the 70s didn't dare think about doing), she was reconciling old relationships, she was singing again, once she was back in the money. But it was that performance that I think nailed it. She knew where her place was and I suspect that if death hadn't found her so early, we would have heard a bit more from the great Florence Ballard.

OK I've heard your viewpoint Ran and I'm not going to come to same conclusion. I see little here that favors Florence making a comeback. In the first place , a comeback to what ? She has no history as a solo artist and nothing to offer as such. She's not even bankable as a former Supreme , that title being stripped from her, and besides, looking around, who is wooing former Supremes to make them into stars? ABC Records did try and the results were so abysmal they couldn't even ante up one album worthy of release. The singles released flopped. [[I have not heard these songs . Why are they bad?) This is Flo's resume at this point: A firing from Motown , a failed solo contract, and five years of doing nothing vocally. She's got a history of drinking , and personal issues. Is she clean? Is she fit mentally, physically ? Is she?

Don't know the details of this one benefit performance she finally did , but who can say how impressive it was or wasn't. How big was the crowd ? How big the production, how many songs ? Who was there ? No offers flooded in from it and eight more uneventful months pass.

So, Flo tells Diana she's ready to sing, and that indicates a magic switch has been activated. She's ready. However, she's still in Detroit , she's still a mother of three, she's advancing into her thirties, ^{she's still indulging Tommy}, but maybe she meant ready to go back to singing in a more realistic way, as you said above, it wouldn't be advisable for her to jump right into it. She's going to have to reinvent herself from the ground up. Maybe Flo could find work as a studio session singer, or maybe as a backup singer for a touring act . And even at that level, I say maybe.
But as a prime time headliner? as "FLORENCE BALLARD"? I think its going to take a miracle.

[RanRan79]

OK I've heard your viewpoint Ran and I'm not going to come to same conclusion.

That's quite alright Boogie. Like I said before, we don't have to agree with each other. It was just cool enough to be able to go back and forth with ideas. I'm sure the one thing we can absolutely agree on is that Florence left the world way too soon.

[[I have not heard these songs. Why are they bad?)

As far as the singles go, Flo's first single "It Doesn't Matter" was an okay song but it didn't seem right for Flo's voice. Some have supposed it was more Diana's style and that was what the label was looking for. There's an alternate unreleased version that IMO has Flo approaching the song a bit more in her own style, and that's the version I prefer.

Flo's second single "Love Aint Love" was very good and most fans agree that it was a hit that never was. [[It actually managed to make a few regional playlists at the time.) But without the company push, possible backlash from Gordy, and Flo getting in her own way, the single tanked.

As far as the rest of her recordings at ABC, IMO they were hit and miss. [[The writer Nelson George refers to Flo's version of "Goin Out of My Head" as superior to Little Anthony's. The song itself is one of my all time favs by anyone, but I wouldn't call Flo's version "superior" to the original. But she does a fantastic rendition.) A few gems, a few clunkers. Definitely a singer trying to find her footing.