Did Berry Gordy Kick Himself After This?

[marv2]

Probably one of the greatest songs of the 70s and definitely of the year 1973:

[jboy88]

When Mr. Gordy first heard the song, he actually thought it was a Motown recording. He'd been so preoccupied with filming "Lady Sings the Blues", he was unaware that Gladys and the Pips had left the company.

[marv2]

When Mr. Gordy first heard the song, he actually thought it was a Motown recording. He'd been so preoccupied with filming "Lady Sings the Blues", he was unaware that Gladys and the Pips had left the company.

Really? Then there is no surprise that Motown was doomed moving forward. Those movies he made paled completely to the music Motown was making while they were still in Detroit!

[marv2]

This is just on of those perfect Pop/Soul records. With a little tweeking, it could have also been a Country Music hit. Just great work from them all here.

[Motown Eddie]

I'm sure there were a lot of occasions during the '70s for Berry Gordy [[and the Motown brass) to kick themselves. From Gladys & the Pips, The Four Tops, The Spinners, to The Jacksons/Michael Jackson & The Isley Bros, the charts were full of classic songs by ex-Motown acts.

[Motown Eddie]

Probably one of the greatest songs of the 70s and definitely of the year 1973:

Yes indeed; "Midnight Train To Georgia" was one of the best songs of the '70s and still one of Gladys Knight's 'signature songs' in concert today.

[TheMotownManiac]

Really? Then there is no surprise that Motown was doomed moving forward. Those he made paled completely to the music Motown was making while they were still in Detroit!

Not a shred of truth to that - other than it being one of best records ever, that is. Lady Sings The Blues came out a year before Midnight Train, and it came out six months after Gladys quit negotiating with Motown and left Motown - it was her second release on Buddha. To suggest Berry didn't know she left is.......to be kind, absurd.

I think Gladys has the best soul voice ever, but her obsession with Diana Ross needs to stop - it's an embarrassment to be so crazed over one movie and one singer - she's STILL using Ross stories for publicity and attention.....so sad. Gladys' voice has aged better than any of her peers including Ross, she doesn't need to keep dwelling on 50 year old tales - lol.

Was Berry kicking himself, probably, as he loved Gladys' voice and worked hard getting her put into A-list clubs, all over TV and better venues on the strength of one, albeit huge, hit. I saw Friendship Train on so many TV shows that I knew that routine by heart. He personally pleaded with her to cut If I Were Your Woman as he knew she would murder with it and it outsold anything Ross or The Supremes did in '71.

Gordy couldn't off her what she wanted: to be bigger than Ross and financial transparency so she left. Buddha was small enough that she could check every dime and had more financial control over her own gigs - Berry was triple dipping and she knew they were all getting...... screwed over. Unhappily, Buddah didn't work out so well either, but it was still a good move.

[marv2]

I'm sure there were a lot of occasions during the '70s for Berry Gordy [[and the Motown brass) to kick themselves. From Gladys & the Pips, The Four Tops, The Spinners, to The Jacksons/Michael Jackson & The Isley Bros, the charts were full of classic songs by ex-Motown acts.

You are so right. We could do a whole separate thread on just those classic songs. By the end of the decade they had even lost their first group, The Miracles.

[splanky]

This is just on of those perfect Pop/Soul records. With a little tweeking, it could have also been a Country Music hit. Just great work from them all here.

Funny you should say that because the writer of the song
Jim Weatherly was a country music singer and the song itself was originally Midnight Train To Houston....

[BigAl]

Gladys was very lucky to have retained Jim Weatherly as a songwriter when she and the Pips defected to Buddha. He had written their well-received Hitsville swan-song [["Neither One of Us"), so the label change was smoother than it might have been otherwise. Although their first collaborative Buddha outing, "Where Peaceful Waters Flow," didn't hit big, "Midnight Train" certainly did, as did "You're The Best Thing that Ever Happened to Me," and not only made the transition easier but also kept the chart momentum for them. Although "Neither One of Us" was published by Jobete, I suppose Weatherly himself was freelance and not under exclusive contract to Gordy, because you know he'd no doubt have been hit with a lawsuit otherwise. Cissy Houston had recorded "Midnight Train" previous to Gladys/Pips, but it didn't go anywhere, and more's the pity. Still, Gladys' version was better arranged even if Gladys' voice arguably wasn't quite as formidable as Cissy's

[daviddh]

I always thought that there were times when BG should have kicked himself including the loss of Gladys Knight and the Pips. they were so hot during the mid 70s.i remember seeing them on the American Music Awards and other programs.
but it seems Motown was about to loose just about everyone , or so it seems. year after year , as contracts ended. artists jumped ship. BG left Detroit behind and then the Detroiters started leaving him behind. great group

[marv2]

Funny you should say that because the writer of the song
Jim Weatherly was a country music singer and the song itself was originally Midnight Train To Houston....

Hey Splanky I didn't know that. It just always had that country feel to it for me. Thanks.

[marv2]

I always thought that there were times when BG should have kicked himself including the loss of Gladys Knight and the Pips. they were so hot during the mid 70s.i remember seeing them on the American Music Awards and other programs.
but it seems Motown was about to loose just about everyone , or so it seems. year after year , as contracts ended. artists jumped ship. BG left Detroit behind and then the Detroiters started leaving him behind. great group

I would have thought that since music and recording was their core business that they would have kept a strong focus on it while Mr. Gordy dabbled in the film business.

Their neglect of the artists and the music side of Motown hurt the company severely as did leaving Detroit completely. It did not make practical business sense to me since by 1972 they were still producing hits out of Detroit.

[marv2]

Not a shred of truth to that - other than it being one of best records ever, that is. Lady Sings The Blues came out a year before Midnight Train, and it came out six months after Gladys quit negotiating with Motown and left Motown - it was her second release on Buddha. To suggest Berry didn't know she left is.......to be kind, absurd.

When I read this, I knew it did not make sense, because
I was around at that time. The film, "Lady Sings the Blues" was released on October 12, 1972. Gladys Knight & the Pips did not leave Motown until February 1973 [[we had just moved into our new house is what sparked my memory of this LOL!).

Also, Berry Gordy was still the head of Motown Corporation and he could have done anything he wanted in regards to Gladys Knight & the Pips. He didn't do the right thing and he lost them.

[Bluebrock]

Gladys was very lucky to have retained Jim Weatherly as a songwriter when she and the Pips defected to Buddha. He had written their well-received Hitsville swan-song [["Neither One of Us"), so the label change was smoother than it might have been otherwise. Although their first collaborative Buddha outing, "Where Peaceful Waters Flow," didn't hit big, "Midnight Train" certainly did, as did "You're The Best Thing that Ever Happened to Me," and not only made the transition easier but also kept the chart momentum for them. Although "Neither One of Us" was published by Jobete, I suppose Weatherly himself was freelance and not under exclusive contract to Gordy, because you know he'd no doubt have been hit with a lawsuit otherwise. Cissy Houston had recorded "Midnight Train" previous to Gladys/Pips, but it didn't go anywhere, and more's the pity. Still, Gladys' version was better arranged even if Gladys' voice arguably wasn't quite as formidable as Cissy's

I love Cissy's voice but give me Gladys every day of the week. Midnight Train is nowhere near my Favourite Gladys and the Pips song, but it is iconic and probably their best known song.
I interviewed Gladys back in July and found her to be great company. I was expecting a difficult two hours but she was charm personified. As regards Diana she told me she had recently attended one of her concerts and gone backstage afterwards and spent some quality time together. She also attended a Ross concert in New York back in the 90's when i was present. I wouldn't go so far as to say they are now bosom pals, but Gladys insisted she no longer had a problem with Diana. she has finally moved on and that has got to be a good thing.

[marv2]

Was Berry kicking himself, probably, as he loved Gladys' voice and worked hard getting her put into A-list clubs, all over TV and better venues on the strength of one, albeit huge, hit. I saw Friendship Train on so many TV shows that I knew that routine by heart.

I don't know what one hit your are referring to because Gladys and the Pips had several Top 40 hits prior to "Friendship Train" Mr. Gordy is great,but he did not have to do much in terms of developing or mentoring Gladys Knight & The Pips. They were already and experience, professional act by the time they came to Motown. He was to suppose to get hits and promote them to even greater success the type of success that their talent warranted.

[nabob]

I don't know what one hit your are referring to because Gladys and the Pips had several Top 40 hits prior to "Friendship Train" Mr. Gordy is great,but he did not have to do much in terms of developing or mentoring Gladys Knight & The Pips. They were already and experience, professional act by the time they came to Motown. He was to suppose to get hits and promote them to even greater success the type of success that their talent warranted.

I saw GKP on a bill as opening act for the Tempts at Madison Square Garden in 1968. The Tempts struggled to match the excitement and level of professional showmanship of GKP. By the way, I was severely punished for going on a school night without permission. But it was well worth it. Thank you for the tickets DJ David Stein, whose grandmother lived next door.

[marv2]

I saw GKP on a bill as opening act for the Tempts at Madison Square Garden in 1968. The Tempts struggled to match the excitement and level of professional showmanship of GKP. By the way, I was severely punished for going on a school night without permission. But it was well worth it. Thank you for the tickets DJ David Stein, whose grandmother lived next door.

I can remember sitting in the Turn of the Century theater in Denver back in 1983 just before Gladys Knight and the Pips came on stage arguing with a friend of mine that the Pips danced, moved better than the Temptations. A month later and at the same theater we saw the Temptations and the Four Tops and I won the argument in silence LOL!!!

[RanRan79]

her obsession with Diana Ross needs to stop - it's an embarrassment to be so crazed over one movie and one singer - she's STILL using Ross stories for publicity and attention.....so sad. Gladys' voice has aged better than any of her peers including Ross, she doesn't need to keep dwelling on 50 year old tales - lol.

I hate to ask, but how exactly is Gladys "obsessed"? I've heard discuss Diana Ross like twice in 20 years, and one of those times wasn't me hearing her, it was me reading what she had to say in her autobiography. And I tend to keep up with Gladys. The last time I heard her mention Ross was when Sway asked her about Diana having GK&P thrown off a tour. If Gladys wasn't telling lies I don't have a problem with her answering the question. But an occasional answer to a question involving Diana Ross does not an obsession make. There are far more people right here on Soulful Detroit that I would categorize as being obsessed with Diana Ross before I give that label to Gladys Knight.

[RanRan79]

Cissy Houston had recorded "Midnight Train" previous to Gladys/Pips, but it didn't go anywhere, and more's the pity. Still, Gladys' version was better arranged even if Gladys' voice arguably wasn't quite as formidable as Cissy's

Cissy Houston is a great singer but I don't think she was very good at interpreting lyrics. Gladys knew how to read a song and adjust her voice to fit the story. IMO Cissy rarely did that. However, her version of "Make It Easy On Yourself" is a vocal tour de force. On that one I thought she added a level of emotion that didn't exist on other versions I've heard, and I thought her emotion fit the story a little better.

[glencro]

I hate to ask, but how exactly is Gladys "obsessed"? I've heard discuss Diana Ross like twice in 20 years, and one of those times wasn't me hearing her, it was me reading what she had to say in her autobiography. And I tend to keep up with Gladys. The last time I heard her mention Ross was when Sway asked her about Diana having GK&P thrown off a tour. If Gladys wasn't telling lies I don't have a problem with her answering the question. But an occasional answer to a question involving Diana Ross does not an obsession make. There are far more people right here on Soulful Detroit that I would categorize as being obsessed with Diana Ross before I give that label to Gladys Knight.

I was thinking the same thing. I've lost count of the Gladys interviews that I've heard or watched and I've only heard her mention Ross a few times. I'm sure there was resentment but obsessed is a strong word. Gladys has always been a class act and so has Ross in my book.

[RanRan79]

I was thinking the same thing. I've lost count of the Gladys interviews that I've heard or watched and I've only heard her mention Ross a few times. I'm sure there was resentment but obsessed is a strong word. Gladys has always been a class act and so has Ross in my book.

Most of the ladies from the Motown stable have been classy, especially in their mature years. Their fans on the other hand...

[reese]

I hate to ask, but how exactly is Gladys "obsessed"? I've heard discuss Diana Ross like twice in 20 years, and one of those times wasn't me hearing her, it was me reading what she had to say in her autobiography. And I tend to keep up with Gladys. The last time I heard her mention Ross was when Sway asked her about Diana having GK&P thrown off a tour. If Gladys wasn't telling lies I don't have a problem with her answering the question. But an occasional answer to a question involving Diana Ross does not an obsession make. There are far more people right here on Soulful Detroit that I would categorize as being obsessed with Diana Ross before I give that label to Gladys Knight.

I wouldn't call it obsessed. I think Gladys still has some bad feelings from her Motown years, as she has discussed it often over the years. Sometimes one would think that she and the Pips had very little success while there, which isn't the case. But it is the impression that is given when Gladys has been profiled on shows like BEHIND THE MUSIC and LIFETIME PORTRAIT.

She has told the Diana kicking her off a tour a few times in recent history. Besides the Sway interview, it was also discussed on ARISE ENTERTAINMENT when her last cd [[WHERE MY HEART BELONGS) was released, and again on THE INSIDER when her last single JUST A LITTLE was released.

I found THE INSIDER interview really disappointing, only because she was publicizing her new release and 3/4 of the story was spent discussing an incident from 50 years ago instead of her new single. The one good thing is that she did say that both she and Diana had to grow up.

[captainjames]

The only time I would think that Mr. Gordy would have kicked himself is when The Jackson 5 walked. Jermaine being married to Hazel was not a sure thing for the group and I know Mr. Gordy flipped. The Temps, Gladys Knight and The Pips, Marvin Gaye, Four Tops and even Diana had monster hits after leaving Motown. Losing Michael Jackson I am sure pissed him off.

[mysterysinger]

Berry should kick himself on the strength of Brenda Holloway's "Spellbound". Did he even know there was that much great material going to can at the time?

[TheMotownManiac]

I don't know what one hit your are referring to because Gladys and the Pips had several Top 40 hits prior to "Friendship Train" Mr. Gordy is great,but he did not have to do much in terms of developing or mentoring Gladys Knight & The Pips. They were already and experience, professional act by the time they came to Motown. He was to suppose to get hits and promote them to even greater success the type of success that their talent warranted.

Yes they had several top 40 hits but that doesn't get you into the Copacabana….the one that got them into the Copa was grapevine -

you are very right about them already being an experience polished act when they came to Motown, but he took them beyond the Howard and the Apollo, got them into prestige venues across the country and on TV a lot… The loss of HDH didn't just hurt the Supremes tops and Vandellas, it hurt everyone because there was no one to take up the slack so naturally the better material was going to go to the top acts and even then it was sparse.

[bradsupremes]

I can remember sitting in the Turn of the Century theater in Denver back in 1983 just before Gladys Knight and the Pips came on stage arguing with a friend of mine that the Pips danced, moved better than the Temptations. A month later and at the same theater we saw the Temptations and the Four Tops and I won the argument in silence LOL!!!

The Pips had the best choreography out of all the Motown guy groups. Everyone raves about the Temptations, but the Pips were slick, in sync, and had better moves. I have to wonder if Cholly Atkins liked them the best so he gave them the better moves.

[marv2]

Yes they had several top 40 hits but that doesn't get you into the Copacabana….the one that got them into the Copa was grapevine -

you are very right about them already being an experience polished act when they came to Motown, but he took them beyond the Howard and the Apollo, got them into prestige venues across the country and on TV a lot… The loss of HDH didn't just hurt the Supremes tops and Vandellas, it hurt everyone because there was no one to take up the slack so naturally the better material was going to go to the top acts and even then it was sparse.

The loss of HDH hurt just about everyone EXCEPT Gladys Knight & the Pips because Gladys could sing just about anything and make it sound great! She was just that talented. They did not need to be spoon fed their songs and whatever brushing up that needed to be done was handled by Maurice King and Cholly Atkins. You could tell that Bubba Knight knew exactly what to do to bring the choreography alive. At times, even Gladys did some of the moves to precision! Top act, Copa or not. They could do it all and still look good on Soul Train! LOL!!!

[marv2]

Berry should kick himself on the strength of Brenda Holloway's "Spellbound". Did he even know there was that much great material going to can at the time?

Brenda wouldn't play ball. It had nothing to do with her being a West Coast artist as some people have argued with me over. She was a SINGER with natural talent and she expected to be promoted based on her talents alone...........................!

[mysterysinger]

Just a hint of sleaze perhaps - but that's for another thread.

[masterblaster]

Great song but it is the background vocal arrangement that makes this version stand out. The Pips usually arranged their own vocals. I remember one early interview where Gladys explained that Norman Whitfield gave the Gaye version of 'grapevine' to the group and their arrangement of that song was all their own work.

[lakedistrictlad1]

On a side note, but still related to Gladys Knight & The Pips, I went to see the Motown Musical in London a couple of months ago.

One thing that struck me was there was no mention of Gladys Knight. It was like they have been struck from the Motown history books. The Velvelettes got a mention [[which was great) - but not Gladys Knight & The Pips.

[reese]

On a side note, but still related to Gladys Knight & The Pips, I went to see the Motown Musical in London a couple of months ago.

One thing that struck me was there was no mention of Gladys Knight. It was like they have been struck from the Motown history books. The Velvelettes got a mention [[which was great) - but not Gladys Knight & The Pips.

That's too bad. They must have cut that segment. Each time I saw the show here in the US, there was a mock GRAPEVINE recording session. It was brief, but it was there.

[Jaap]

Actually, the original title was Midnight PLANE to Houston, and was about/inspired by Farrah Fawcett. There was a really nice mini-documentary about the song on Dutch television a couple of years ago, which explained the whole trajectory from Jim Weatherly to Cissy Houston [[who changed the title, despite what Gladys Knight says during her show) to Gladys Knight. And yes, as I think all agree, including Jim Weatherly and Cissy Houston, Gladys Knight's version is the ultimate one.

[TomatoTom123]

On a side note, but still related to Gladys Knight & The Pips, I went to see the Motown Musical in London a couple of months ago.

One thing that struck me was there was no mention of Gladys Knight. It was like they have been struck from the Motown history books. The Velvelettes got a mention [[which was great) - but not Gladys Knight & The Pips.

That's too bad. They must have cut that segment. Each time I saw the show here in the US, there was a mock GRAPEVINE recording session. It was brief, but it was there.

Hey lakedistrict, I remember when I went to see the musical in London, there was, as reese says, a mock recording session for “I Heard It Through The Grapevine”... I distinctly remember it because when it started, everyone kinda made a ‘wooah’ noise in acknowledgment and appreciation of how awesome it was going to be, lol. It was, but it was also short, so maybe they just omitted it from your musical?

I also remember the guy playing Norman Whitfield dancing and clapping next to Gladys and the Pips. It was great.

[marv2]

Actually, the original title was Midnight PLANE to Houston, and was about/inspired by Farrah Fawcett. There was a really nice mini-documentary about the song on Dutch television a couple of years ago, which explained the whole trajectory from Jim Weatherly to Cissy Houston [[who changed the title, despite what Gladys Knight says during her show) to Gladys Knight. And yes, as I think all agree, including Jim Weatherly and Cissy Houston, Gladys Knight's version is the ultimate one.

That's interesting. Thank you Jaap.

that's