Robert Bateman + The Shangri-Las = One H*ll of a good song

[huntergettingcaptured]

First heard this on a Shangri-Las CD and it kinda freaked me out because it sounded so much like it had been recorded, if not at Hitsville in Detroit, at least another Detroit studio. Then I learned Robert Bateman had done this and I figured he must have indeed recorded the music in Detroit. Those drums, especially the booming sound of the bass drum sounds way too much like the Motown drums to have been recorded elsewhere. If this was done in New York, then this is one heck of magic trick to get that Detroit / Motown sound. At any rate, I really like the Shangri-Las on this.

It's funny, because in an old magazine interview, Mary Weiss had remarked about the differences in the Supremes' sound and the Shangri-Las and how each had their own distinct identity. She commented on how the Supremes wouldn't have been able to get away with "Leader Of The Pack" while the Shangri-Las wouldn't have been able to get away with trying to do their songs. If anything, I think the Shangri-Las would have brought something very unique to some of the Motown songs. From what I've read, they really got emotionally involved in some of those more dramatic tunes they recorded. This is a very good indication of how they'd sound at Motown.

https://youtu.be/fltVcMfeQLo

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/fltVcMfeQLo" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[mysterysinger]

Excellent as their big hits are, it's easy to get hung up on them and not see past them to what more the Shangri-Las had to offer. Mary had a distinctive and instantly recognisable voice [[perhaps decade defining in a category that I also class Ronnie Spector, Cal Street and Diana, for example). You've chosen a good song to highlight Hunter - I, for one, hadn't cottoned on to the Motown connection before. Thanks.

[johnjeb]

Love the Shangri-Las and Right Now and Not Later.

Recently rediscovered these Motown soundalikes on my Red Bird Story 4-CD collection that also have Robert Bateman's involvement:

Roddie Joy - If There's Anything Else You Want [[Let Me Know)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1506VRM_eg

The Bouquets - Welcome To My Heart

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NV2PrC8A6Sk

[mike_sku]

I know it's not "technically" a Motown song, bit I just heard "Paradise" by the Shangri-Las [[the same song that's on the Supremes' Jimmy Webb LP). Mary Weiss was definitely a pop force to be reckoned with.

[bradburger]

The backing track to this was most definitely cut in Detroit, as was Roddie Joy's 'If There Is Anything Else You Want'.

Most probably cut at the same session as the backing track to the Shangri-Las tune.

[[Note Mike Terry's distinctive baritone sax on both)!

Cheers

Paul

[Methuselah2]

Great, insightful thread you started, Hunter. Have not thought about RIGHT NOW AND NOT LATER for a very long time. Much too long. Terrific recording that gets the top-of-the-line Tomovox video treatment that it so well deserves. The Shangri-Las were a remarkable group. Thank you for pointing out their Motown-ness.

[huntergettingcaptured]

Excellent as their big hits are, it's easy to get hung up on them and not see past them to what more the Shangri-Las had to offer. Mary had a distinctive and instantly recognisable voice [[perhaps decade defining in a category that I also class Ronnie Spector, Cal Street and Diana, for example). You've chosen a good song to highlight Hunter - I, for one, hadn't cottoned on to the Motown connection before. Thanks.

Really like your views on The Shangri-Las and Mary Weiss's vocal style. When I was younger, I only knew them for "Leader Of The Pack." One day I heard "Give Him A Great Big Kiss," and thought that had a sort of Motown-ish flavor and that's the one that got me to really seek out their music. It's like you said, I had sort of gotten hung up on one song and not really looked past that. I and I like that you included Mary amongst those amazing female singers. I think Mary really took her music seriously and that came out when you heard her sing. Thanks, mysterysinger for some really good insights!

[huntergettingcaptured]

Love the Shangri-Las and Right Now and Not Later.

Recently rediscovered these Motown soundalikes on my Red Bird Story 4-CD collection that also have Robert Bateman's involvement:

Roddie Joy - If There's Anything Else You Want [[Let Me Know)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1506VRM_eg

The Bouquets - Welcome To My Heart

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NV2PrC8A6Sk

Wow! Thanks for sharing these two. These are very good, especially the Roddie Joy song. Now, I'm really convinced Robert must have been recording the music in Detroit. The sound is just too authentically Detroit to have been recorded elsewhere.

[huntergettingcaptured]

I know it's not "technically" a Motown song, bit I just heard "Paradise" by the Shangri-Las [[the same song that's on the Supremes' Jimmy Webb LP). Mary Weiss was definitely a pop force to be reckoned with.

I'll have to check that one out, Mike! The more I listen to The Shangri-Las, the more respect I have for them and Mary Weiss. For the longest time, there was so much "mystery" surrounded what happened to the group in later years. It's nice that now, you can find so much online. Mary and the group has gotten a lot of recognition and praise from quite a lot of artists over the years. From what I can tell, they all remained very down-to-earth. Mary has an online store of sorts too now, so that's nice to see.

I'll go check out both the Shangri-Las and Supremes versions of "Paradise."

[huntergettingcaptured]

The backing track to this was most definitely cut in Detroit, as was Roddie Joy's 'If There Is Anything Else You Want'.

Most probably cut at the same session as the backing track to the Shangri-Las tune.

[[Note Mike Terry's distinctive baritone sax on both)!

Cheers

Paul

I agree with you Paul! Just now hearing the Roddie Joy song, I had that feeling too these were cut at the same session. I think The Shangri-Las would have sounded great if they kept on in the Detroit Sound vein, but I have a feeling their fan base really wanted them to keep doing what they were so good at- those little melodramas that were pretty frank and honest for that time. I still get chills from Mary's reading of the last line of "I Can Never Go Home Anymore."

[robb_k]

Robert Bateman started free lance producing in New York in late 1963. He had gone there for Wilbur Golden and Correc-Tone Records to lease recordings tog bigger new York labels, to earn cash, because Golden had spent a lot on his new studio Bateman had built for him, and sales were not good for the early Correc-Tone releases by Wilson Pickett, James Velvet and Gino Washington [[despite their being excellent recordings).

Bateman used arranger/band leader Richard Tee to re-create "The Detroit Sound" in New York. They did a good job of it. Most of those "Detroit-sounding" recordings Batemn produced on New York artists were recorded in New York [[such as "I Spy For The F.B.I." by Luther Ingram). I had thought some of "If There is Anything Else You Want" was recorded in Detroit, but later, found out it was recorded in New York, after all [[Which is true of The Bouquets' and all The Shangi-Las' cuts). Bateman used Richard Tee on Piano, Pretty Purdie on drums [[who sounded like Benny Benjamin at times), and the greatest New York guitarists and bass players, to "simulate" "The Detroit Sound". He did go back to record in Detroit [[a few Mary Wells 20th Century Fox cuts, and Luther Ingram on HIB Records -with Popcorn Wylie). But, almost all hisn recordings in 1964-69 were done in New York.

[kenneth]

Their first hit was "Remember [[Walkin' in the Sand)." A fabulous song with a haunting backing track. I remember reading once the best description of it I ever heard, where a writer said something like "not only does the song invoke memories of a summer at the beach, but it evokes the feeling of memory itself." So true! Wish I'd said it!

[huntergettingcaptured]

Robert Bateman started free lance producing in New York in late 1963. He had gone there for Wilbur Golden and Correc-Tone Records to lease recordings tog bigger new York labels, to earn cash, because Golden had spent a lot on his new studio Bateman had built for him, and sales were not good for the early Correc-Tone releases by Wilson Pickett, James Velvet and Gino Washington [[despite their being excellent recordings).

Bateman used arranger/band leader Richard Tee to re-create "The Detroit Sound" in New York. They did a good job of it. Most of those "Detroit-sounding" recordings Batemn produced on New York artists were recorded in New York [[such as "I Spy For The F.B.I." by Luther Ingram). I had thought some of "If There is Anything Else You Want" was recorded in Detroit, but later, found out it was recorded in New York, after all [[Which is true of The Bouquets' and all The Shangi-Las' cuts). Bateman used Richard Tee on Piano, Pretty Purdie on drums [[who sounded like Benny Benjamin at times), and the greatest New York guitarists and bass players, to "simulate" "The Detroit Sound". He did go back to record in Detroit [[a few Mary Wells 20th Century Fox cuts, and Luther Ingram on HIB Records -with Popcorn Wylie). But, almost all hisn recordings in 1964-69 were done in New York.

Thank you for such incredible background on where this music was recorded. Yes, Purdie sounded REMARKABLY like Benny Benjamin; what kept me wondering is how he would hit the snare and then follow up with a hit to the tom-tom, a Benny signature. The New York musicians really did fantastic job on getting that Detroit Sound. I honestly would never have believed it was done outside of Detroit.

[huntergettingcaptured]

Their first hit was "Remember [[Walkin' in the Sand)." A fabulous song with a haunting backing track. I remember reading once the best description of it I ever heard, where a writer said something like "not only does the song invoke memories of a summer at the beach, but it evokes the feeling of memory itself." So true! Wish I'd said it!

now THAT is a brilliant use of words!

[bradburger]

Thanks very much Robb for the detailed info on Rob Bateman's freelance producing - much appreciated!

However, I'm going to stick my neck out here and say I disagree that these tunes in question were cut in New York without members of the Funk Brothers.

I would say the backing tracks were cut in Detroit with various members of the Funks, or various members of the Funks went to NY and cut them there!

However, to my ears and mind, they just have that magic blend of magic and 'sound' that graces those independent Detroit productions.

Whilst the likes of Purdie and co were great musicians, and despite Bateman's influence as the producer, I find it hard to believe they could emulate the Funks and the Detroit sound so forensically well.

Cheers

Paul

[mysterysinger]

I know it's not "technically" a Motown song, bit I just heard "Paradise" by the Shangri-Las [[the same song that's on the Supremes' Jimmy Webb LP). Mary Weiss was definitely a pop force to be reckoned with.

Please don't forget this version also, by The Ronettes....

[mysterysinger]

BUT back to the original topic...

[BigAl]

"Right Now And Not Later" was written by Bateman, along with Ronald Moseley and Kenneth Drake Hollon. The latter also wrote Florence Ballard's first solo outing, "It Doesn't Matter How I Say It."

If memory serves me, I believe Robert Bateman produced that track as well, but it might have been George Kerr. I can't locate the disc just now to check.

[Motown Eddie]

I'll always love The Shangri-Las' "Right Now And Not Later". Indeed the song has that '4 on the floor' Motown flavor that we know and love. According to The Best of The Shangri-Las collection [[Polygram 1996), the song was produced by Robert Bateman & Ronald Mosley [[with arrangement & conducing credited to Bateman). IMHO this should've been a major hit for the group.

[smallworld]

I've never thought "Right Now and Not Later" was an outstanding track. It's just a pleasant Motown pastiche. It could certainly have done with some Ellie Greenwich vocal arranging - the other girls are given virtually nothing to do. I love how in the video above, Liz refuses to mouth the words when the camera pans to her in close-up. She was the original lead singer. There's apparently even a version of "Leader in the Pack" in the vaults with Liz on vocals.