Diana Ross project: supremes live in Japan 1973

[blackguy69]

https://dianarossproject.wordpress.com

[sup_fan]

overall I agree that this is a weak live set. And the author hits the nail on the head with identifying some of the problem - jean comes off disengaged. Also her endless riffing and ad libing does detract, IMO, from the songs. her lead vocal part is what carried the melody and without it, the songs are vacant.

and I hate the arrangement of Bad Weather. I think it's the bass player - bouncing bad and forth. absolutely 0 funk or soul

but I love hearing some of Lynda's dynamic vocals.

Stoned Love - 2:21 Lynda high jump
Tossin & Turning - 2:39 damn girl!! Lynda's backing vocals!!

[RanRan79]

The version of "Can't Take My Eyes Off of You" from this show is IMO Mary's best live vocal performance ever, and could quite possibly be my vote for her best lead vocal period while a Supreme.

[sup_fan]

It is one of her best of this tune. But I think her best live lead is Mike Douglas and Don't Let My Teardrop

https://youtu.be/CXJ-BSAY1vw

[RanRan79]

It is one of her best of this tune. But I think her best live lead is Mike Douglas and Don't Let My Teardrop

https://youtu.be/CXJ-BSAY1vw

That is a great one Sup fan. The 70s was a great time for Mary to grow as a vocalist.

[sup_fan]

Keep in mind I don't think that hideous funeral parlor electric organ accompanying them sounds good lolol 😂

She sounds great. S and S sounds pretty good throughout too. The band accompanying is awful

Also this highlights a point I've made on a few other threads lately. I think a major problem w the 70s Sups was their live repertoire. Why was Mary forever singing Can't Take My Eyes in their shows when she had perfectly nice leads on their lps that she could perform live beautifully? This is a perfect example. Why keep doing The Way We Were when Teardrops or U R The Heart Of Me would have been amazing live

[marybrewster]

This is a perfect example. Why keep doing The Way We Were when Teardrops or U R The Heart Of Me would have been amazing live

I guess I don't understand your post? This was 1973 with Jean and Lynda. "Teardrops" and "Heart" weren't released for another 2 years.

[sup_fan]

I know. I was meaning in general w Mary's solo in the show. She'd been doing Can't for years. By 73 why didn't they do I Keep It Hid or A Heart Like Mine. Then by the Scherrie years doing a lead track from those lps

[nathanj06]

Another complete mess. They sang as if their asses were on fire. This and Jimmy Webb should have been dumped in the river. Better yet, never recorded in the first place. Along with Floy Humperdinck. JMC were on a roll until they released "Touch" as a follow up to "Nathan Jones". Everything was downhill by the end of 1971. That is until Scherrie Payne showed up but they truly lost a great singer in Jean Terrell. Motown [[Berry) ruined them. Yet again, wrong producers and definitely wrong arrangers for their live shows. Even with Scherrie their live shows like Mike Douglas were horrendous. They should have changed their name to Screech.

[blackguy69]

I think some are being overly critical of Mary singing can't take my eyes off of you. She does s good job at it and actually it was probably the highlight of this album. This album wasn't a mess but could've been improved. If they taken out TCB as the opening sequence and replaced Somewhere, it would've been better. Another problem was that jean didn't seem to be in it and gave a so so performance

[Thornton]

Oy with the medleys! While I enjoyed the novelty of this album, I haven't listened to it in years. Jean seems like she's just there to do the show. I think full length versions of their 70's hits, and a slowed down, fleshed out 60's hits medley would have helped fill out the show. I always thought that "All I Want" would have been a good show opener during this era, and a song like "Lean On Me" or "MacArthur Park" might have been a better closing. Lynda's backup vocals are the highlight of this concert without a doubt. I also agree this is one of Mary's best solos from the 70's.

[RanRan79]

Keep in mind I don't think that hideous funeral parlor electric organ accompanying them sounds good lolol 

She sounds great. S and S sounds pretty good throughout too. The band accompanying is awful

Also this highlights a point I've made on a few other threads lately. I think a major problem w the 70s Sups was their live repertoire. Why was Mary forever singing Can't Take My Eyes in their shows when she had perfectly nice leads on their lps that she could perform live beautifully? This is a perfect example. Why keep doing The Way We Were when Teardrops or U R The Heart Of Me would have been amazing live

To some degree I think the 60s Supremes live shows suffered from the same issue: repertoire. With all the great stuff the Diana Supremes and Jean Supremes recorded you would think that their live shows over the years would really vary but it didn't. It was the same tired songs year after year without much change.

As much as I love to hear Mary sing this song [[does she ever do it in her live act today?), you're absolutely right, by the time of Japan Mary could've done "I Keep It Hid", which was recent but not a favorite of mine, or "A Heart Like Mine", which I would have loved to hear her do live because I'm crazy about that song. Toward the end of the Supremes Mary had amassed a nice amount of leads that could've been inserted in the show, although Mary does sing my favorite version of "The Way We Were".

Sometimes I get the feeling that the folks behind the scenes from 1966 thru 1977 expected people to be entertained by the name
"Supremes", beautiful gowns, and great singing, and didn't really care about the real meat of these shows.

[RanRan79]

I think some are being overly critical of Mary singing can't take my eyes off of you. She does s good job at it and actually it was probably the highlight of this album. This album wasn't a mess but could've been improved. If they taken out TCB as the opening sequence and replaced Somewhere, it would've been better. Another problem was that jean didn't seem to be in it and gave a so so performance

Mary does a great job on the song, and I think it probably was in the show so long because it was a highlight. But she had been singing this song in the show since 1969 and since that time she had recorded a great lead in "A Heart Like Mine" and had a lead on the most recent album released. And why the hell were the Supremes still doing "Somewhere" in 1973, a song the group started doing in 1965? And "Touch" isn't even on the album at all! The question has to be asked, what the hell were the people behind the scenes thinking with some of these decisions?

[blackguy69]

Truthfully I don't think I keep it hid or a heart like mine would've been good live. Touch was in and out of the show til 75. If they would have kept lean on me or love train/oh happy day [[which mary did most of the lead) that would have been perfect.

[sup_fan]

my intention wasn't to criticize her perform. more so the song choice and that the management of the group had them continuing to do cabaret content when they should have done more to highlight their own original material

[sup_fan]

I think in the 60s when the girls were breaking into the Copa, their choice or repertoire was acceptable. in all of the books, there are stories about how Gil was focusing on a supper-club approach and to hell with the hit singles. and given that time and place, that was ok.

the problem is that as the years went by, the group didn't evolve. or at least provide variety. yes the girls were still playing Vegas in the 70s so maybe are more cabaret style set would work there. But in other locations and performances, they should have varied things more.

Almost like have Show Version A and Version B, C, D etc depending on where they were playing.

And the medley business was wearing thin. in the post on the 73 live album, the author makes a great point about the 60s medley. A full rendition of Jean doing My World would have been amazing. skip the medley and just do that one amazing song.

With Mary's songs, perhaps I Keep It Hid or A heart like Mine might not have been stand outs. But they could have been combined with a song or done in a way to help them transition to a live setting. I agree they're not the most magical songs ever and frankly not even Mary's most exciting songs.

Imagine if they'd started the 73 show with Tossin and Turning. Then into Stoned Love. Mary's leads up I keep It hid and maybe tie in either another song from Webb or something. Then do some non-sup stuff. Pull in a couple of 60s songs. Bad Weather. A medley of 5:30 Plane and something else from Webb. Nathan Jones and the Love the one You're With segment worked well. Close with Cheap Loving. Now you've properly marketed your latest product and, hopefully, helped drive sales of the lp.

[blackguy69]

It's easy for us to criticize this being we're looking at this now instead of what they were thinking of back in 73. Let me put it like this [[and this is for comparison only not to start a war), Diana did the lady is a tramp for years but I'm pretty sure no one complain being she is excels in her rendition. Why criticize Mary for the same thing

[RanRan79]

I think in the 60s when the girls were breaking into the Copa, their choice or repertoire was acceptable. in all of the books, there are stories about how Gil was focusing on a supper-club approach and to hell with the hit singles. and given that time and place, that was ok.

the problem is that as the years went by, the group didn't evolve. or at least provide variety. yes the girls were still playing Vegas in the 70s so maybe are more cabaret style set would work there. But in other locations and performances, they should have varied things more.

Almost like have Show Version A and Version B, C, D etc depending on where they were playing.

And the medley business was wearing thin. in the post on the 73 live album, the author makes a great point about the 60s medley. A full rendition of Jean doing My World would have been amazing. skip the medley and just do that one amazing song.

With Mary's songs, perhaps I Keep It Hid or A heart like Mine might not have been stand outs. But they could have been combined with a song or done in a way to help them transition to a live setting. I agree they're not the most magical songs ever and frankly not even Mary's most exciting songs.

Imagine if they'd started the 73 show with Tossin and Turning. Then into Stoned Love. Mary's leads up I keep It hid and maybe tie in either another song from Webb or something. Then do some non-sup stuff. Pull in a couple of 60s songs. Bad Weather. A medley of 5:30 Plane and something else from Webb. Nathan Jones and the Love the one You're With segment worked well. Close with Cheap Loving. Now you've properly marketed your latest product and, hopefully, helped drive sales of the lp.

I like the idea of structuring the act to the venue. But even in that I think there should be some variety. During the Diana years "Somewhere" was in the act from 1965 to damn near Diana left. I LOVE the Sam Cooke Medley, but it seems to have been a part of every show from 1965 thru 1968. I love a lot of the television appearances. They did some fantastic stuff on television. But then the stage show was the same old songs year after year, with a couple interchangeable additions here and there. I think the 70s Supremes had a slightly better variety from act to act, but it was still a lot of unnecessary holdovers.

[RanRan79]

It's easy for us to criticize this being we're looking at this now instead of what they were thinking of back in 73. Let me put it like this [[and this is for comparison only not to start a war), Diana did the lady is a tramp for years but I'm pretty sure no one complain being she is excels in her rendition. Why criticize Mary for the same thing

You must have missed the thread where everybody was complaining about Diana doing "Tramp" on television instead of her current single. Lol I haven't seen anyone criticize Mary over any of this. The complaint is with the people who actually made these decisions. If Mary was involved in that, well she should get some criticism for it, but it can't be laid at only her feet. As for Diana, and I can only speak for myself, I think that so much was right with her show that the poor decision to keep "Tramp"- a song she had been doing since at least 1967- can be overlooked.

[reese]

You must have missed the thread where everybody was complaining about Diana doing "Tramp" on television instead of her current single. Lol I haven't seen anyone criticize Mary over any of this. The complaint is with the people who actually made these decisions. If Mary was involved in that, well she should get some criticism for it, but it can't be laid at only her feet. As for Diana, and I can only speak for myself, I think that so much was right with her show that the poor decision to keep "Tramp"- a song she had been doing since at least 1967- can be overlooked.

I think a lot of the sameness of Supremes acts in the 60s and 70s might very well be what is happening with Diana's shows now, i.e., if it ain't broke, don't fix it. I would also venture to guess that one of the reasons the 70s Supremes relied on some of their older material is because bringing in new songs meant forking out money for new arrangements, which can be quite expensive and which they had less of. I would suspect that was also the reason why some of Mary's early solo shows seemed like Supremes shows minus Scherrie and Susaye.

Re TRAMP, according to her musical director Gil Askey, Diana grew tired of the song and dumped it from her act. But when Berry saw the show, he insisted that she put it back in. But after 1977, she never sang it again.

[jobeterob]

I think a lot of the sameness of Supremes acts in the 60s and 70s might very well be what is happening with Diana's shows now, i.e., if it ain't broke, don't fix it. I would also venture to guess that one of the reasons the 70s Supremes relied on some of their older material is because bringing in new songs meant forking out money for new arrangements, which can be quite expensive and which they had less of. I would suspect that was also the reason why some of Mary's early solo shows seemed like Supremes shows minus Scherrie and Susaye.

Re TRAMP, according to her musical director Gil Askey, Diana grew tired of the song and dumped it from her act. But when Berry saw the show, he insisted that she put it back in. But after 1977, she never sang it again.

I agree with this. To change up the show would have incurred a bunch more expense and things weren't going well by this time.

Also, do you really want to incur that expense to switch up a known song like Cant Take My Eyes Off You and put in a song virtually no one knew - like I Keep It Hid?? Not really.

It is the same argument about Diana's current show. Can she seriously run a Greatest Hits Tour and not sing Stop in the Name of Love? Not going to happen.

In the back of all this, you have a group failing, members changing right and left and not getting along, a manager that couldn't manage and with all that, you won't get a record company doing a lot for you when you can't help yourself.

Kind of like Washington today.

[blackguy69]

I do agree with Reese, it's was a matter of $. If you notice how different the show was from what jmc than what jml did. I'm not sure what they were thinking around fall 1972 when the kinda reverted to the combined drats farewell/newer show. At least the Japan show did drop you're nobody till somebody loves you and it's alright with me. I remember someone mentioning the last show jml did didn't have any 60 supremes songs in it.

[smallworld]

I think it was a matter of money, in the sense that TPTB didn't want to endanger their bottom line. Most people who go to concerts want to hear songs that they know. People can be quite vocal when they don't get that. "Can't Take Me Eyes Off You", while not a Supremes hit, was a megahit and thus a safe bet, in comparison to non-hit LP tracks that could have made an audience antsy and/or testy.

[blackguy69]

I think it was a matter of money, in the sense that TPTB didn't want to endanger their bottom line. Most people who go to concerts want to hear songs that they know. People can be quite vocal when they don't get that. "Can't Take Me Eyes Off You", while not a Supremes hit, was a megahit and thus a safe bet, in comparison to non-hit LP tracks that could have made an audience antsy and/or testy.

That makes sense

[RanRan79]

I think it was a matter of money, in the sense that TPTB didn't want to endanger their bottom line. Most people who go to concerts want to hear songs that they know. People can be quite vocal when they don't get that. "Can't Take Me Eyes Off You", while not a Supremes hit, was a megahit and thus a safe bet, in comparison to non-hit LP tracks that could have made an audience antsy and/or testy.

The money issue is a plausible explanation for the decisions. But tons of artists sang songs from their latest albums in their concerts, so I'm failing to understand that "non-hit lp tracks" explanation as being a legit concern, especially if you're hoping to squeeze out sales of a latest album, as Sup fan presented in an earlier post.

[thanxal]

I would love to hear a Mary Wilson-Frankie Valli duet of CTMEOOY. Its such a shame since they had a window to do this during the groups short tenure at Motown and considering Mary had been singing it since 1968. [[or was it earlier?).

[smallworld]

But tons of artists sang songs from their latest albums in their concerts, so I'm failing to understand that "non-hit lp tracks" explanation as being a legit concern, especially if you're hoping to squeeze out sales of a latest album, as Sup fan presented in an earlier post.

It isn't a question of LP only tracks never getting an airing in concert, more a case of how such tracks are received in a live setting and whether or not they stay in the act for a significant length of time.

Note how TPTB chose to include "Tossin' and Turnin'" in the concert set. It served the purpose of promoting the Jimmy Webb album, while giving the audience a megahit at the same time - there was little chance of alienating the audience with the unfamiliar. Of course, Motown chose not to include the track on the vinyl release - the Jimmy Webb album was most likely dismissed as a lost cause in the interim.

[blackguy69]

Actually can't take my eyes off of you would be considered an album cut. I would have loved to seen a drats show with just the hits and the b sudes [[too bad I was decades away from being born lol). I'm guessing whoever put the show together knew what songs would or would not worked. Luckily the girls did start doing more album cuts when Supremes 75 came out

[Thornton]

Actually can't take my eyes off of you would be considered an album cut. I would have loved to seen a drats show with just the hits and the b sudes [[too bad I was decades away from being born lol). I'm guessing whoever put the show together knew what songs would or would not worked. Luckily the girls did start doing more album cuts when Supremes 75 came out

I was thinking of the Manchester '75 concert as a good example of including album cuts. The audience really seemed to enjoy the selections, and they were spread out over the show between contemporary songs and the 60's hits. I think Mary mentions in "Supreme Faith" that it was expensive to do that show because of the new arrangements and costumes. Even with the manic live performances given by MSS, they did manage to include album cuts from "High Energy" in their live act, which may have helped with sales.

[sup_fan]

ok - had some time to think about a possible show concept for the girls. was swimming laps at the gym and needed something to focus on lololol. Also we don't know what might have been performed at this show but cut from the lp. For instance, maybe they did Love Train but motown didn't want to have to bother with royalties.


Intro - sound effects of weather, snippets of weather reports, building until a huge crack of thunder with a loud laugh by Stevie [[similar to that on the ending of the long BW version on the pink Box Set) and the all lights going black

Bad Weather

Monologue about stevie doing BW

Stevie medley - For Once In My Lift, If You Really Love Me, Superstition, BW reprise

Stoned Love

Mary Medley - First Time Ever I Saw your Face, I Keep It Hid

Cabaret

60s medley

Stop In the Name of Love [[full version)

70s medley

Jean solo - he's ain't heavy? People?

Cheap Lovin'

I Guess I'll Miss the Man

Jimmy Webb medley - 5:30 plane, Paradise, All I Want

Cherry Pie

Tossin and Turnin - including band introductions

monologue about peace and humanity

When Can Brown Begin

Medley - Sing [[similar to the version from Kate Smith special), I'll take you there/ thankyouforlettingmebemyself/Sing

Everybody's Got the Right

Love Train for encore finale

[blackguy69]

Interesting. But if I was doing this, I would open with River Deep Mountain High backed with Hey Big Brother. Then a quick into then go into This is the Story. I wouldn't do a Stevie medley but would do a Motown medley similar to what the temptations did on Sullivan. I would take out Cabaret. For Mary I would have her do I Love You For All Seasons and Killing Me Softly. I would close the Show with It So Hard For Me to Say Goodbye

[blackguy69]

Everything else sup fan mentioned I would keep

[sup_fan]

I thought about someone's suggestion of All I Want as the opener. It's exciting and lively. But then thought about BW. And was thinking perhaps if they really promoted the fact he produced it and made a bigger deal of it perhaps it might have done better.

Thought about adding You gotta have love in your heart to the show. I sort of did a "love one another" concept for the last part.

[blackguy69]

I wouldn't do bad weather as an opener. I always liked when drats did you keep me hanging on an an opening number. But I would go for your wonderful sweet sweet love as the opening number

[sup_fan]

YWSSL was a good opener during their 72 concerts. The intro created excitement and could be stretched out to allow them to enter.

I agree BW might not be the strongest. But w it being their current single I thought it would make sense to really build it up. Thought the "weather report" stuff would be catchy and I think it there had been more promotion that Stevie did this track maybe it would have done better. He was hot on the charts at this time w Sunshine of my life.


On another Sup live idea - I like the dream segment the did once Scherrie was onboard. I found it fresh and new. Perhaps once susaye was in they could have expanded this into a larger Dream segment. sweet dream machine.

[Thornton]

YWSSL was a good opener during their 72 concerts. The intro created excitement and could be stretched out to allow them to enter.

I agree BW might not be the strongest. But w it being their current single I thought it would make sense to really build it up. Thought the "weather report" stuff would be catchy and I think it there had been more promotion that Stevie did this track maybe it would have done better. He was hot on the charts at this time w Sunshine of my life.


On another Sup live idea - I like the dream segment the did once Scherrie was onboard. I found it fresh and new. Perhaps once susaye was in they could have expanded this into a larger Dream segment. sweet dream machine.

I once asked Susaye about the dream sequence, which she did with Mary and Scherrie for their Roostertail concert. She said if she could have chosen someone to portray, and not just do Cindy's part, she would have picked Carmen Miranda. I think she would have been great.

[RanRan79]

Sup fan I love your lineup. That sure would have been something to hear.

[RanRan79]

Interesting. But if I was doing this, I would open with River Deep Mountain High backed with Hey Big Brother. Then a quick into then go into This is the Story. I wouldn't do a Stevie medley but would do a Motown medley similar to what the temptations did on Sullivan. I would take out Cabaret. For Mary I would have her do I Love You For All Seasons and Killing Me Softly. I would close the Show with It So Hard For Me to Say Goodbye

Yeah "Cabaret" could have been scrapped BG. I can't hear Mary doing "I Love You For All Seasons", however I think Jean would've killed it. Why Mary has never covered Roberta Flack [[as far as I know) is insane. I think the stuff Roberta was doing was right up Mary's alley. I would have loved to hear her do "Killing Me Softly". "It's So Hard For Me to Say Goodbye" is one of my absolute favs of the Jean years so I would've loved to have heard a live version of that.

[longtimefan]

Could have been alternate cover art!!! [[Smile)

[blackguy69]

Yeah "Cabaret" could have been scrapped BG. I can't hear Mary doing "I Love You For All Seasons", however I think Jean would've killed it. Why Mary has never covered Roberta Flack [[as far as I know) is insane. I think the stuff Roberta was doing was right up Mary's alley. I would have loved to hear her do "Killing Me Softly". "It's So Hard For Me to Say Goodbye" is one of my absolute favs of the Jean years so I would've loved to have heard a live version of that.

I dont jean would've been right for u love you for all seasons. Jean would've over sung it. If Mary sung it like she sung the first half of touch, it could've worked

[waynesville]

Spot on analysis - its like Motown refused to realise that the Supremes HAD to change when Jean replaced Diana and just wouldn't let them do it.