Mary Wilson solo debut

[RanRan79]

One of my favorite cuts from Mary's debut album, "Pick Up the Pieces". it was released as a single in the U.K. in 1980:

This is the song that Motown should've pushed. I love this one. Didn't know it was a single in the UK. How did it do?

[marv2]

This is the song that Motown should've pushed. I love this one. Didn't know it was a single in the UK. How did it do?

I really don't know how it did in can I say England without offending anyone? But it also was included in the compilation CD series Motown by the Year - 1980.

[luke]

Now Marv you know it's the U.K. I've been chastised in past for saying England!!

[TomatoTom123]

I really don't know how it did in can I say England without offending anyone? But it also was included in the compilation CD series Motown by the Year - 1980.

Lol, I think you mean 'Britain', Marv... anycase I don't think it was a hit here even though it was a single... still a great song though...

[marv2]

Now Marv you know it's the U.K. I've been chastised in past for saying England!!

Ok thanks Luke. My bad.

[Roberta75]

This is the song that Motown should've pushed. I love this one. Didn't know it was a single in the UK. How did it do?

It wasnt really a released single in the UK it was a prromo single which means about 100 copies was pressed and passed out to radio stations but never took of and wasnt released to the public.

https://www.discogs.com/Mary-Wilson-...elease/4104168

[luke]

I don't know why Marv lol. People say U.S and not America! What about the Virgin Islands and Puero Rico?!

[marv2]

I don't know why Marv lol. People say U.S and not America! What about the Virgin Islands and Puero Rico?!

It's all a mystery Luke. hehehehehehehehe! Do people still use the term "Scotland" or always just United Kingdom?

[luke]

Excellent question. And aren't they considering leavingUK?? Getting complicated

[marv2]

Excellent question. And aren't they considering leavingUK?? Getting complicated

I think they already tried that and it was voted down.

[luke]

And Puerto Rico voted to become a state but haven't heard another word about it!

[marv2]

And Puerto Rico voted to become a state but haven't heard another word about it!

They're not going to let them become a State. LOL!

[luke]

Hmmmmphhhhh

[marv2]

Back to the subject. Does anyone remember Mary Wilson's television solo debut on the Mike Douglas Show? She sang "Red Hot" and Mike joined her towards the end to dance.

[TomatoTom123]

I know this is not related to the actual thread but I feel like it might need some explaining... lol... basically, the nation state you guys are taking about is called the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, known simply as the United Kingdom or the UK. This refers to the nation state that is made up of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.

England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, are individual countries [[not states in themselves) that together make up the UK. The term 'Great Britain' or 'Britain' refers to the actual island that is made up of England, Scotland and Wales, but is normally used interchangeably with 'the UK' to mean the whole state.

Hmm, I think that's it... hope it all makes sense!

[TomatoTom123]

Oh, yes, Scotland [[which is, like England, just a country within the UK) had a referendum on whether to leave the UK and become an independent state back in 2014. They voted [[just about) to remain a part of the UK, so did not become an independent country, although there is of course the possibility that they could in the future, through another referendum.

There ya goooo, questions hopefully answered now!

[luke]

Very helpful. Thanks Tomato. I'm guessing USA refers to territories as well but not sure. Will research. America may refer to Canada , USA and Mexico and South America as well and Centeal America!

[bradsupremes]

given how so much of the production staff had left Motown by 80, i'm surprised they were so upset by Mary working with Gus. Unless Motown had incurred costs for the sessions and had already planned on dropping her.

I do think these tracks are really strong and she would have been perfectly timed to the post-disco era. Something more rock/tina turner-esque.

So many what ifs

That's why it confuses me. If Motown was so upset about having outside people coming in then why was it okay for Nile Rodgers and Bernard Edwards to produce Diana around the same time. Rodgers/Edwards and Dudgeon had established producing credits. Doesn't make sense why they would be upset especially if the recordings were exceptional like Mary's tracks with Dudgeon were.

Motown wasn't happy when Jimmy Webb was brought in to do the Supremes album back in 1972. You'd think they would be fine with it due to Webb's phenomenal writing and producing and the fact he was a former Motown songwriter. And yet Motown was okay with the idea of bringing in Bacharach & David to work with DRATS in the late 60's.

[luke]

Sadly I think they just wanted to show the door to Mary Wilson.

[marv2]

That's why it confuses me. If Motown was so upset about having outside people coming in then why was it okay for Nile Rodgers and Bernard Edwards to produce Diana around the same time. Rodgers/Edwards and Dudgeon had established producing credits. Doesn't make sense why they would be upset especially if the recordings were exceptional like Mary's tracks with Dudgeon were.

Motown wasn't happy when Jimmy Webb was brought in to do the Supremes album back in 1972. You'd think they would be fine with it due to Webb's phenomenal writing and producing and the fact he was a former Motown songwriter. And yet Motown was okay with the idea of bringing in Bacharach & David to work with DRATS in the late 60's.

They were being hypocrites! They wanted control over who got hits and who didn't. Strange, I know but for certain artists at Motown to be so bold as to go and select their own producers without permission was a no, no. Keep in mind that the artists still have to pay for studio time out of their own royalties, etc!

[marv2]

Sadly I think they just wanted to show the door to Mary Wilson.

Then they were talking to her about coming back as early as 1982 when they wanted to put the Supremes back together with Mary.

[marv2]

Oh, yes, Scotland [[which is, like England, just a country within the UK) had a referendum on whether to leave the UK and become an independent state back in 2014. They voted [[just about) to remain a part of the UK, so did not become an independent country, although there is of course the possibility that they could in the future, through another referendum.

There ya goooo, questions hopefully answered now!

Yes that helps. Thanks.

[TomatoTom123]

Very helpful. Thanks Tomato. I'm guessing USA refers to territories as well but not sure. Will research. America may refer to Canada , USA and Mexico and South America as well and Centeal America!

Hey, Luke, you're welcome. Yep, I think USA is a bit like the UK in that it is the official 'nation state', made up of all the individual states.

[TomatoTom123]

Yes that helps. Thanks.

Welcome Marv!

[sup_fan]

agreed! and don't forget Baby It's Me being done by an outside producer.

i'm wondering if there was something else more behind the scenes. Mary and Pedro had caused quite a bit of commotion with the top Motown staffers. and of course her big lawsuit could NOT have helped things.

Randy's Beyoncé book gives some props to Matthew Knowles for having the vision to find creative outlets for all 3 girls in Destiny's Child. hence their really not having the internal struggles of other girl groups. B is obviously the superstar but Michelle and Kelly have both had their own successes. Imagine if Berry had had this vision with the Sups.

[luke]

Good point sup_fan. As Neil Bigart said mary had the potential to be another Donna Summer and Flo could have been a knockout on Broadway/a Nessun Dorma like Aretha.

[marv2]

agreed! and don't forget Baby It's Me being done by an outside producer.

i'm wondering if there was something else more behind the scenes. Mary and Pedro had caused quite a bit of commotion with the top Motown staffers. and of course her big lawsuit could NOT have helped things.

Randy's Beyoncé book gives some props to Matthew Knowles for having the vision to find creative outlets for all 3 girls in Destiny's Child. hence their really not having the internal struggles of other girl groups. B is obviously the superstar but Michelle and Kelly have both had their own successes. Imagine if Berry had had this vision with the Sups.

That's funny because many of the "top Motown staffers" were always over at Mary and Pedro's house for parties. They never missed one of Mary's parties. LOL!

[RanRan79]

I'm with Luke. Like I said previously, they were looking for a reason to drop Mary and they used Dudgeon as an excuse. I would add though, there is a difference in situations in which those outside producers like Richard Perry and Niles Rodgers were brought in: Motown greenlit those decisions and with Dudgeon they did not.

[RanRan79]

Then they were talking to her about coming back as early as 1982 when they wanted to put the Supremes back together with Mary.

I think somebody was blowing smoke up Mary's butt. There's no way that I buy Motown seriously considering putting the Supremes back together unless it was Wilson, Ross and Birdsong. They didn't give a shit about the group just a few years prior, so why go through the trouble [[and surely they had to have known Mary Wilson of 1982/83 was not Mary Wilson of 1976/77, which meant she would be even more trouble because she would not want to be controlled at all) of bringing them back? The general public didn't give a shit about the Jean-less Supremes [[and if my memory serves me it was the MSC grouping Motown was "interested" in) in the 70s, so what had changed in the 80s from the company's perspective? I suppose- if I were going to buy Motown's interest in a 80s Supremes- Motown might have wanted to give the Pointer Sisters some competition, but I really don't think MSC was the grouping to do it. Jean joining Mary and Cindy, perhaps. [[Although I doubt Jean would have been interested in rejoining Motown.) Diana joining Mary and Cindy, definitely. Scherrie? I laugh at the absurdity of the entire scenario.

[RanRan79]

Good point sup_fan. As Neil Bigart said mary had the potential to be another Donna Summer and Flo could have been a knockout on Broadway/a Nessun Dorma like Aretha.

Mary, another Donna Summer? I don't think so. She needed to get far away from disco. I think the 70s would have been good to Flo. I can hear her doing southern soul in the early part of the decade and I think she would have been great on the kinds of stuff Gloria Gaynor was doing with disco.

[kenneth]

They're not going to let them become a State. LOL!

That's correct about Puerto Rico. They did have a vote, but it was a symbolic vote with no legal "teeth." Like an opinion poll.

[marv2]

I think somebody was blowing smoke up Mary's butt. There's no way that I buy Motown seriously considering putting the Supremes back together unless it was Wilson, Ross and Birdsong. They didn't give a shit about the group just a few years prior, so why go through the trouble [[and surely they had to have known Mary Wilson of 1982/83 was not Mary Wilson of 1976/77, which meant she would be even more trouble because she would not want to be controlled at all) of bringing them back? The general public didn't give a shit about the Jean-less Supremes [[and if my memory serves me it was the MSC grouping Motown was "interested" in) in the 70s, so what had changed in the 80s from the company's perspective? I suppose- if I were going to buy Motown's interest in a 80s Supremes- Motown might have wanted to give the Pointer Sisters some competition, but I really don't think MSC was the grouping to do it. Jean joining Mary and Cindy, perhaps. [[Although I doubt Jean would have been interested in rejoining Motown.) Diana joining Mary and Cindy, definitely. Scherrie? I laugh at the absurdity of the entire scenario.

Look. It wasn't even that complicated. Berry and Motown were still not happy that Diana Ross went to RCA and Marvin went to Columbia. They felt the company was losing it's identity. The Temptations Reunion went well for the most part and so they thought a Supremes Reunion might be worthwhile. Mary did not instigate that. Someone else brought the idea to Mr. Gordy.

[marv2]

Mary, another Donna Summer? I don't think so. She needed to get far away from disco. I think the 70s would have been good to Flo. I can hear her doing southern soul in the early part of the decade and I think she would have been great on the kinds of stuff Gloria Gaynor was doing with disco.

But that is what they were talking about back then. Mary, Donna Summers, Grace Jones and all of them were hanging out often partying in New York in those days. This "next Donna Summer" talk was before the "next Tina Turner" talk started LOL! I remember all of this stuff. I am impressing only myself here LOL!!!

[marv2]

That's correct about Puerto Rico. They did have a vote, but it was a symbolic vote with no legal "teeth." Like an opinion poll.

Although I hate what is going on in Puerto Rico now, I just don't see them becoming the 51st State.

[Thornton]

Sidebar: I just posted a thread with a link to the demo version of "This Is Why I Believe In You" if anyone is interested in listening.

[marv2]

Sidebar: I just posted a thread with a link to the demo version of "This Is Why I Believe In You" if anyone is interested in listening.

I got it and you are DA BEST! Thank you

[luke]

I'm listening Marv! Mary was a trendsetter a la Green River pre Tina. My love life is a disaster/pre She works hard for the money. And remember she was offered Holiday!!

[Ozmo]

I think somebody was blowing smoke up Mary's butt. There's no way that I buy Motown seriously considering putting the Supremes back together unless it was Wilson, Ross and Birdsong. They didn't give a shit about the group just a few years prior, so why go through the trouble [[and surely they had to have known Mary Wilson of 1982/83 was not Mary Wilson of 1976/77, which meant she would be even more trouble because she would not want to be controlled at all) of bringing them back? The general public didn't give a shit about the Jean-less Supremes [[and if my memory serves me it was the MSC grouping Motown was "interested" in) in the 70s, so what had changed in the 80s from the company's perspective? I suppose- if I were going to buy Motown's interest in a 80s Supremes- Motown might have wanted to give the Pointer Sisters some competition, but I really don't think MSC was the grouping to do it. Jean joining Mary and Cindy, perhaps. [[Although I doubt Jean would have been interested in rejoining Motown.) Diana joining Mary and Cindy, definitely. Scherrie? I laugh at the absurdity of the entire scenario.

I think that the success of the musical 'Dreamgirls' and subsequent publicity relating to the Supremes as it's inspiration played a big part in Motown's interest in reforming the group to capitalise on this attention. The lineup was to be Mary, Scherrie and Cindy.

Mary has stated that Berry Gordy was not overly enthusiastic about the idea which must have been pitched by others at the company, so she saw no reason to proceed, which was probably the right decision.

[luke]

I remember reading a comment by Cindy in Jet magazine about their re-forming.

[blackguy69]

I think that the success of the musical 'Dreamgirls' and subsequent publicity relating to the Supremes as it's inspiration played a big part in Motown's interest in reforming the group to capitalise on this attention. The lineup was to be Mary, Scherrie and Cindy.

Mary has stated that Berry Gordy was not overly enthusiastic about the idea which must have been pitched by others at the company, so she saw no reason to proceed, which was probably the right decision.

p

Part of it was seeing the $ the temptations reunion so someone thought why not the supremes

[marv2]

I'm listening Marv! Mary was a trendsetter a la Green River pre Tina. My love life is a disaster/pre She works hard for the money. And remember she was offered Holiday!!

She was and in a way it was to be expected. After all, she is one of the biggest icons of the sixties along with Diana Ross, Florence Ballard, the Beatles, Dylan and the Stones. Those were some of the most popular, successful artists of that decade.

Here's a bit of trivia you may not know but Mary Wilson was asked to audition for the role of "Clair Huxtable" on the Cosby Show by Mr. Cosby himself. Phylicia Rashad got the part and the rest is history.

[sup_fan]

I'm not saying it was a good idea. Or a well thought out one. But 60s nostalgia was hot at this time. The whole Big Chill thing. While Motown was certainly innovative in some ways, they also were big on jumping on a bandwagon. If they could get a few bucks out of it, why not. As we know, many if not most Motown decisions were not based on sentiment or artistry. But just cold hard cash

[marv2]

p

Part of it was seeing the $ the temptations reunion so someone thought why not the supremes

Exactly....................

[Boogiedown]

Marv2:

Disco was just about over by the Fall of 1979. That album should have come out in '77 or '78.

Pairing Mary with Hal Davis is proof to me that Motown wasn't serious about Mary; Davis was ice cold in 1979
, had not had a major hit in over three years.

The second problem is that Motown was running out of in-house producers. Most had left and the company now had acts that write and produce themselves.

If Motown wanted Mary they could have approached Rick James or Stevie Wonder to launch her, maybe even James Carmichael. Of the three, Stevie likely would have taken the challenge

Couldn't you say the same thing about Hal Davis when they assigned him to Diana Ross in 76, he'd had a couple of dry years then too .


And just as it might be argued that disco wasn't the right sound for Mary , equally would it have been said of Diana pre-LOVE HANGOVER. I don't think anyone at Motown had any intentions of making Diana a club favorite including [[and especially) Diana herself, but by doing so, it was the biggest favor Hal Davis could have awarded her career. It's these disco hits of hers that give her concerts a driving energy even to this day. Hal Davis did the same thing for Thelma Houston giving her such a big disco song that it's provided her a lifetime career of performing .
So why not see if this same fortune could be repeated again with Mary. No one in 1979 knew disco was about to implode, so it was acceptable, even desirable, to include the genre in a project. Mary needed to land somewhere , and disco, a female vocalists' haven, for her remained virgin territory . Diana Ross at this same time was still embracing disco and her resulting work with Chic would garner some of the most successful music of her catalogue.

As far as RED HOT being released too late , I agree that the disco style being utilized in it was dated for 1979 and no DJ was looking to play music that sounded like the same o same o. I don't think the record would have fared any better a year or more earlier though . The record is weak in several ways and even in disco, hearing something like 'RED HOT' repeated too much , as in over and over [[and over) again, gets tiresome.
IMO , the bass line in RED HOT is a rambling mess . The best hope would have been to pull forward that piano part beginning at 3:23 and make that the song's driving force instead of that confused bass line . Most of the Linda Clifford growls could go too . Etc.



Back to Mary being stuck with Hal Davis, do we feel the same about Syreeta when she worked with Davis following this project ?

[kenneth]

She was and in a way it was to be expected. After all, she is one of the biggest icons of the sixties along with Diana Ross, Florence Ballard, the Beatles, Dylan and the Stones. Those were some of the most popular, successful artists of that decade.

Here's a bit of trivia you may not know but Mary Wilson was asked to audition for the role of "Clair Huxtable" on the Cosby Show by Mr. Cosby himself. Phylicia Rashad got the part and the rest is history.

Did she actually audition for the part? I never knew that.

Another piece of funny trivia "Cosby" related. Phylicia Rashad had 2 [[I think) albums on Casablanca. I have one, "Josphine Superstar", kind of a take off on Josephine Baker. I know I've never played it but just one of those things, when I saw it, I had to have it!

[marv2]

Did she actually audition for the part? I never knew that.

Another piece of funny trivia "Cosby" related. Phylicia Rashad had 2 [[I think) albums on Casablanca. I have one, "Josphine Superstar", kind of a take off on Josephine Baker. I know I've never played it but just one of those things, when I saw it, I had to have it!

I believe she did read for the part.

[marv2]

Couldn't you say the same thing about Hal Davis when they assigned him to Diana Ross in 76, he'd had a couple of dry years then too .


And just as it might be argued that disco wasn't the right sound for Mary , equally would it have been said of Diana pre-LOVE HANGOVER. I don't think anyone at Motown had any intentions of making Diana a club favorite including [[and especially) Diana herself, but by doing so, it was the biggest favor Hal Davis could have awarded her career. It's these disco hits of hers that give her concerts a driving energy even to this day. Hal Davis did the same thing for Thelma Houston giving her such a big disco song that it's provided her a lifetime career of performing .
So why not see if this same fortune could be repeated again with Mary. No one in 1979 knew disco was about to implode, so it was acceptable, even desirable, to include the genre in a project. Mary needed to land somewhere , and disco, a female vocalists' haven, for her remained virgin territory . Diana Ross at this same time was still embracing disco and her resulting work with Chic would garner some of the most successful music of her catalogue.

As far as RED HOT being released too late , I agree that the disco style being utilized in it was dated for 1979 and no DJ was looking to play music that sounded like the same o same o. I don't think the record would have fared any better a year or more earlier though . The record is weak in several ways and even in disco, hearing something like 'RED HOT' repeated too much , as in over and over [[and over) again, gets tiresome.
IMO , the bass line in RED HOT is a rambling mess . The best hope would have been to pull forward that piano part beginning at 3:23 and make that the song's driving force instead of that confused bass line . Most of the Linda Clifford growls could go too . Etc.



Back to Mary being stuck with Hal Davis, do we feel the same about Syreeta when she worked with Davis following this project ?

Some of the remixes I've heard of "Red Hot" have been VERY good.

[Boogiedown]

Some of the remixes I've heard of "Red Hot" have been VERY good.

when you say remixes, there is more than just the Rusty Garner one?


of which I believe is this:



and I agree, imo, it's an improvement, for one thing, easily 50% less "red hots" heard throughout. lol!
The back up girls have been relegated to a less prominent role. Vocally more sparse, including removing Mary's "rap" piece about her phone number. Very jarring mix at 1:20 Rusty!
Still don't care for the bass line , but that could just be me; the last 45 seconds, removing the vocals there and concluding the record with more of that piano work instead , nice!

One more thought in defense of Motown. They bothered to have the song remixed and then released it as both a promo 12" for the clubs [[added: on red vinyl! no less) and as a commercial retail pressing for the fans. Quite a bother that doesn't strike me as particularly nefarious!

[marv2]

Yes there are several remixes done in recent years. Here is the most recent one by Glenn Rivera from earlier this year:

[marv2]

This one is my favorite by Donald Bumps from about 3 years ago: