Mary Wilson solo debut

[jobeterob]

Don't you think that the album sounds worse today than it really was at the time?

Maybe disco started to wane as the album came out but it had been the big thing.

Today all of that sounds very dated and unlistenable but it isn't just Mary's album.

It's a shame that it was her only real album that got a release.

An album like The Great Amercan Songbook stuff Rod Stewart did would be nice from her - even now.

[sansradio]

Don't you think that the album sounds worse today than it really was at the time?

Maybe disco started to wane as the album came out but it had been the big thing.

Today all of that sounds very dated and unlistenable but it isn't just Mary's album.

It's a shame that it was her only real album that got a release.

An album like The Great Amercan Songbook stuff Rod Stewart did would be nice from her - even now.

Good points, 'rob, but don't forget her WALK THE LINE album from '91.

[RanRan79]

Don't you think that the album sounds worse today than it really was at the time?

Maybe disco started to wane as the album came out but it had been the big thing.

Today all of that sounds very dated and unlistenable but it isn't just Mary's album.

It's a shame that it was her only real album that got a release.

An album like The Great Amercan Songbook stuff Rod Stewart did would be nice from her - even now.

I can't speak about the album as someone who lived disco's birth and death. What I will say is that I love soulful disco. There's a nice amount of disco in rotation when I have my music on shuffle. To me good music is good music no matter the genre or time period. And to my ears Mary Wilson's Motown album stinks beyond belief. I can listen to the stuff Donna Summer and Gloria Gaynor and Diana Ross were doing at the same time as Mary and feel that their stuff was great. Mary's is horrible. Maybe not horrible, but bad. Definitely bad.

[marv2]

Good points, 'rob, but don't forget her WALK THE LINE album from '91.

"Up Close" her live Jazz CD from 2007 was superb!

[marv2]

I really liked Mary's debut album. Here's one of my favorite cuts:

[luke]

I actually like Mary's album better now. I did not like it much in 1979 but after hearing it more and seeing video clips I like it much better now.

[marv2]

I actually like Mary's album better now. I did not like it much in 1979 but after hearing it more and seeing video clips I like it much better now.

I remember waiting a long time for it to come out. I remember going to my neighborhood store back then. I spotted an album I thought was Mary's new one and it turned out to be Brenda Russell's "So Good So Right" album. Then finally about a month and half later Mary's album hit the shelves. I was very happy to have it. I loved "Red Hot" right way and the other songs grew on me over that first month of owing the album.

[jobeterob]

Good points, 'rob, but don't forget her WALK THE LINE album from '91.

Was it actually released by a real record company or was it some marginal shoestring company?

I don't recall an actual Billboard review or anything like that.

[RanRan79]

"Pick Up the Pieces" is the only gem on that album for my taste. I think it should have been the centerpiece, with the rest of the album structured around it. Disco was not Mary's lane. She should have been doing stuff like Brenda Russell was doing. Mary could've done that very well.

[marv2]

"Pick Up the Pieces" is the only gem on that album for my taste. I think it should have been the centerpiece, with the rest of the album structured around it. Disco was not Mary's lane. She should have been doing stuff like Brenda Russell was doing. Mary could've done that very well.

Ironic you should mention that being that Brenda is one Mary's best friends. Here she is covering one of Brenda's songs in concert:

[luke]

I love this. Thanks. It is perfect for Mary. I wish she would sing it now sometimes. Brenda is one of her closest friends.

[marv2]

I love this. Thanks. It is perfect for Mary. I wish she would sing it now sometimes. Brenda is one of her closest friends.

She also use to do this great job with Lisa Stansfield's - "All Around the World" in the late 80s early 90s. Mary always changes up the songs she does in concert.

[detmotownguy]

I love this. Thanks. It is perfect for Mary. I wish she would sing it now sometimes. Brenda is one of her closest friends.

Thanks for posting Marv. Mary certainly has a powerful voice. Nice to hear her let it loose.

[marv2]

Thanks for posting Marv. Mary certainly has a powerful voice. Nice to hear her let it loose.

You are most welcome DET! Detroit produced some of the greatest Pop/Soul singers and Mary Wilson is definitely one of them!

[bradsupremes]

I wonder if Hal Davis knew Mary's strengths and weaknesses when doing that debut album. I feel as though he didn't know her voice well enough to find the right material for her. It seemed like it was thrown together without much thought. It would surprise me one bit if Motown did it on purpose.

Maybe that's why Mary went outside the company [[which Motown wasn't happy about) to get Gus Dudgeon to produce those four tracks on her. Motown clearly didn't care to put her with the right producer within the label. As wrong as it might have been to go against the company, Mary actually did the right thing for herself by finding a producer to cut tracks that showcased her strength and ability. I believe those four Gus Dudgeon tracks was just what Mary needed and she definitely could have had a hit with "Save Me" and "Love Talk." Had Motown not dropped her from the label, finished the second album, and gave one of those Gus Dudgeon tracks just a little push, Mary's solo career may have taken a different course.

[kenneth]

I recently purchased a copy of this album with bonus tracks that was offered by the fellow in Europe who did the bootleg Diana Ross CDs. My feeling about the album was that it still doesn't hold up, but the Dudgeon tracks [[the bonus tracks on the CD) are much better. I suppose if not for disco being so important at the time, Mary's career might have had a different trajectory.

[Boogiedown]

I wonder if Hal Davis knew Mary's strengths and weaknesses when doing that debut album. I feel as though he didn't know her voice well enough to find the right material for her. It seemed like it was thrown together without much thought. It would surprise me one bit if Motown did it on purpose.

Sometimes it seems Motown can't win for trying . They hooked Mary up with the same producer that gave Diana her huge #1 disco hit LOVE HANGOVER , I'm guessing for no other reason than with the hopes that maybe the same magic would happen here for Mary ?

[luke]

I dont think that argument holds up as they dropped her fast.. the woman who helped Motown sell millions of records and performed beautifully helping Motown succeed. She deserved another album. Remember she had just sued them [[ and boy did she have a leg to stand on) and they got her to drop all and any FUTURE claims.

[marv2]

Sometimes it seems Motown can't win for trying . They hooked Mary up with the same producer that gave Diana her huge #1 disco hit LOVE HANGOVER , I'm guessing for no other reason than with the hopes that maybe the same magic would happen here for Mary ?

Disco was just about over by the Fall of 1979. That album should have come out in '77 or '78.

[marv2]

I dont think that argument holds up as they dropped her fast.. the woman who helped Motown sell millions of records and performed beautifully helping Motown succeed. She deserved another album. Remember she had just sued them [[ and boy did she have a leg to stand on) and they got her to drop all and any FUTURE claims.

That's all that it was about. She had them by the "eggs" and they knew it. LOL!

[RanRan79]

Ironic you should mention that being that Brenda is one Mary's best friends. Here she is covering one of Brenda's songs in concert:

No surprises here. Mary did exactly what I've always thought she would have done with the song. I'm glad Brenda gave herself a hit, but I have to wonder how different things could have been for Mary- career wise- if Brenda had given the song to her. I realize Mary didn't have a record company in 1988 [[did she?) but I still wonder "what if".

Btw, I asked this question before but no one addressed it: What's the story on Mary and Atlantic Records in the 80s? She did those demos [["Sleeping In Separate Rooms" was very good IMO and exactly the kind of music she should have been making) and then what happened? Was she ever signed to the label or were those demos a test run to see if she was worth their time and trouble?

I can't remember if she addressed this in her second book and I'm too lazy to look.

[RanRan79]

I wonder if Hal Davis knew Mary's strengths and weaknesses when doing that debut album. I feel as though he didn't know her voice well enough to find the right material for her. It seemed like it was thrown together without much thought. It would surprise me one bit if Motown did it on purpose.

Maybe that's why Mary went outside the company [[which Motown wasn't happy about) to get Gus Dudgeon to produce those four tracks on her. Motown clearly didn't care to put her with the right producer within the label. As wrong as it might have been to go against the company, Mary actually did the right thing for herself by finding a producer to cut tracks that showcased her strength and ability. I believe those four Gus Dudgeon tracks was just what Mary needed and she definitely could have had a hit with "Save Me" and "Love Talk." Had Motown not dropped her from the label, finished the second album, and gave one of those Gus Dudgeon tracks just a little push, Mary's solo career may have taken a different course.

Hal may have felt he had a good read on Mary's voice. I assume though, that wouldn't have stopped him from following the current trend of disco in an effort to give Mary a solo career jump start. As someone said previously, Motown was heavy into producing disco at the time. Hal may have been following the company lead. But no doubt in my mind Motown head honchos knew disco wasn't Mary's thing and the disco album would do her career no favors.

Those Dudgeon tracks were a different story. The songs sound right for the time and right for Mary. Had Motown given her a Love Talk album and pushed it, Mary's solo career could've gone in a different direction. I can't remember Mary's version of the particulars, but did Motown even listen to the Dudgeon tracks, or did they find out about them and boot her [[along with the tracks) out the door without a second thought? If they didn't listen to the tracks one might be able to speculate that they wouldn't have let her take the tracks when they dropped her. They were good enough to get her signed to another label. Was she not shopping herself around?

[Thornton]

Sometimes it seems Motown can't win for trying . They hooked Mary up with the same producer that gave Diana her huge #1 disco hit LOVE HANGOVER , I'm guessing for no other reason than with the hopes that maybe the same magic would happen here for Mary ?

Hal Davis also worked with Mary on The Supremes' 1975 album. There's that demo of "This Is Why I Believe In You" and it sounds like Davis is coaching all of them on vocals, making the song more soulful.

Anyway, I actually like Mary's album, even if it does sound a bit dated. I think the 12" single version of "Red Hot" is the best.

[marv2]

Hal Davis also worked with Mary on The Supremes' 1975 album. There's that demo of "This Is Why I Believe In You" and it sounds like Davis is coaching all of them on vocals, making the song more soulful.

Anyway, I actually like Mary's album, even if it does sound a bit dated. I think the 12" single version of "Red Hot" is the best.

Thornton I remember that demo of "This is Why I Believe In You" too, but I cannot find it now for anything. Would you happen to know where I can listen to it again? Thanks

[marv2]

Hal may have felt he had a good read on Mary's voice. I assume though, that wouldn't have stopped him from following the current trend of disco in an effort to give Mary a solo career jump start. As someone said previously, Motown was heavy into producing disco at the time. Hal may have been following the company lead. But no doubt in my mind Motown head honchos knew disco wasn't Mary's thing and the disco album would do her career no favors.

Those Dudgeon tracks were a different story. The songs sound right for the time and right for Mary. Had Motown given her a Love Talk album and pushed it, Mary's solo career could've gone in a different direction. I can't remember Mary's version of the particulars, but did Motown even listen to the Dudgeon tracks, or did they find out about them and boot her [[along with the tracks) out the door without a second thought? If they didn't listen to the tracks one might be able to speculate that they wouldn't have let her take the tracks when they dropped her. They were good enough to get her signed to another label. Was she not shopping herself around?

She was shopping around. Atlantic was going to sign her but something happened. I don't think they could reach an agreement.

Neil Bogart wanted to sign her to Boardwalk Records but unfortunately he became ill and passed away before they could do the deal.

Fantasy Records offered her a contract and she declined but referred Brenda Holloway to them and she eventually signed with them or a division of Fantasy Records.

Peter Stringfellows wanted to sign her to a new label he was creating. She recorded the song "My Love Life Is A Disaster" as the potential first single. That never panned out however for some reason.

Merv Griffin wanted to sign her to a label he was going to create and on and on and on. LOL!

[Thornton]

Thornton I remember that demo of "This is Why I Believe In You" too, but I cannot find it now for anything. Would you happen to know where I can listen to it again? Thanks

I have it on a cd...somewhere. I'm not sure if it's on YouTube. I haven't listened to it in years.

[BayouMotownMan]

Pairing Mary with Hal Davis is proof to me that Motown wasn't serious about Mary; Davis was ice cold in 1979
, had not had a major hit in over three years.

The second problem is that Motown was running out of in-house producers. Most had left and the company now had acts that write and produce themselves.

If Motown wanted Mary they could have approached Rick James or Stevie Wonder to launch her, maybe even James Carmichael. Of the three, Stevie likely would have taken the challenge

[blackguy69]

I have it on a cd...somewhere. I'm not sure if it's on YouTube. I haven't listened to it in years.

It's not on YouTube at the moment

[marv2]

I have it on a cd...somewhere. I'm not sure if it's on YouTube. I haven't listened to it in years.

I loved that; the way they were practicing and layering the vocals. Maybe you can find a way to upload it to Youtube.

[marv2]

Pairing Mary with Hal Davis is proof to me that Motown wasn't serious about Mary; Davis was ice cold in 1979
, had not had a major hit in over three years.

The second problem is that Motown was running out of in-house producers. Most had left and the company now had acts that write and produce themselves.

If Motown wanted Mary they could have approached Rick James or Stevie Wonder to launch her, maybe even James Carmichael. Of the three, Stevie likely would have taken the challenge

Rick James did express an interest in producing Mary.

[marv2]

It's not on YouTube at the moment

I wished it were. I am sure people here would get a kick out of listening to it. I still remember it and I have not heard it in years.

[BayouMotownMan]

Rick James did express an interest in producing Mary.

No he wanted to produced Diana Ross...and it almost happenend

[sup_fan]

given how so much of the production staff had left Motown by 80, i'm surprised they were so upset by Mary working with Gus. Unless Motown had incurred costs for the sessions and had already planned on dropping her.

I do think these tracks are really strong and she would have been perfectly timed to the post-disco era. Something more rock/tina turner-esque.

So many what ifs

[RanRan79]

She was shopping around. Atlantic was going to sign her but something happened. I don't think they could reach an agreement.

Neil Bogart wanted to sign her to Boardwalk Records but unfortunately he became ill and passed away before they could do the deal.

Fantasy Records offered her a contract and she declined but referred Brenda Holloway to them and she eventually signed with them or a division of Fantasy Records.

Peter Stringfellows wanted to sign her to a new label he was creating. She recorded the song "My Love Life Is A Disaster" as the potential first single. That never panned out however for some reason.

Merv Griffin wanted to sign her to a label he was going to create and on and on and on. LOL!

Thanks for the info Marv.

[RanRan79]

No he wanted to produced Diana Ross...and it almost happenend

I've never heard that it "almost" happened, but I have heard for years that he wanted to produce Diana and instead the company steered him toward the newly signed Teena Marie. I think the Ross/James pairing would have been gold, but I'm glad we got Teena too.

[RanRan79]

given how so much of the production staff had left Motown by 80, i'm surprised they were so upset by Mary working with Gus. Unless Motown had incurred costs for the sessions and had already planned on dropping her.

I do think these tracks are really strong and she would have been perfectly timed to the post-disco era. Something more rock/tina turner-esque.

So many what ifs

No surprise there if they were looking for any reason to kick her to the curb. Her taking charge of her own career was as good a reason as any. Like I said about Diana in another thread, Mary was grown as hell. She'd been a Motown artist since she was a teenager. She earned the right to make some decisions.

[LoveSupreme]

She was shopping around. Atlantic was going to sign her but something happened. I don't think they could reach an agreement.

Neil Bogart wanted to sign her to Boardwalk Records but unfortunately he became ill and passed away before they could do the deal.

Fantasy Records offered her a contract and she declined but referred Brenda Holloway to them and she eventually signed with them or a division of Fantasy Records.

Peter Stringfellows wanted to sign her to a new label he was creating. She recorded the song "My Love Life Is A Disaster" as the potential first single. That never panned out however for some reason.

Merv Griffin wanted to sign her to a label he was going to create and on and on and on. LOL!

WOW! She really didn't have much luck did she? So many would've, should've, could'ves.....

[detmotownguy]

Thornton I remember that demo of "This is Why I Believe In You" too, but I cannot find it now for anything. Would you happen to know where I can listen to it again? Thanks

Marv I asked you 6 mon ago abt that studio audio. Have you been holding out? Lol! I want to hear that raw footage again. Is it stored on your Mary yahoo group? Thanks!

[LoveSupreme]

To her credit she looks great on the front cover of her 1979 solo Lp. She's always been one of the most beautiful artists on the Motown label. Too bad she was shafted on [[a) the material she was given and [[b) the lack of promotion she was afforded.

[luke]

They sure at least gave her a beautiful front cover. Wasn't she pregnant? Is the This is why I believe demo so different from the finished recording?

[longtimefan]

There has been no mention recently of the album entitled CLARITY that Mary discussed as a pending release over many years. I think it was done with the Holland brothers. I guess at this point we're never going to get it. Two singles from it were released however.

Also, Sweet Feet music released a single TIME TO MOVE ON a year or two ago with mention of recording additional tracks. Nothing yet!!!

I am a fan of Mary Wilson and have long been puzzled about pending numerous and then "no show" potential albums over 30+ years [[see other posts above).

Despite some non-fans, Mary does have an audience that would purchase her music. Many performers sell their product at venues where they appear, too.

[sup_fan]

Ralph do u have any memories of this album? I know Russ worked on it so wasn't sure if u have some history to share

[marv2]

Thanks for the info Marv.

You are most welcome.

[marv2]

There has been no mention recently of the album entitled CLARITY that Mary discussed as a pending release over many years. I think it was done with the Holland brothers. I guess at this point we're never going to get it. Two singles from it were released however.

Also, Sweet Feet music released a single TIME TO MOVE ON a year or two ago with mention of recording additional tracks. Nothing yet!!!

I am a fan of Mary Wilson and have long been puzzled about pending numerous and then "no show" potential albums over 30+ years [[see other posts above).

Despite some non-fans, Mary does have an audience that would purchase her music. Many performers sell their product at venues where they appear, too.

Mary use to sell her CD, "I Am Changing" at all of her concerts in the late 90s and through the first 10 years or so of the 2000s. There would be stacks set up in the lobbies before the show and by the time her "meet and greets" ended there would only be a handful to none left. She did hundreds of shows.......

[marv2]

Marv I asked you 6 mon ago abt that studio audio. Have you been holding out? Lol! I want to hear that raw footage again. Is it stored on your Mary yahoo group? Thanks!

uh uh! I don't have it, but let me check around DET.

[marv2]

No he wanted to produced Diana Ross...and it almost happenend

I don't know anything about that, but I do know that he wanted to produce Mary Wilson. Melvin Franklin was also encouraging it. I don't think Mary was too keen on the idea,but she would have to say herself. I remember we were all excited about the idea. Later on after the Mary Jane Girls first album came out, I use to wonder what Mary would sound like doing those songs. YES Rick James wanted to produce Mary Wilson!

[vgalindo]

I've never heard that it "almost" happened, but I have heard for years that he wanted to produce Diana and instead the company steered him toward the newly signed Teena Marie. I think the Ross/James pairing would have been gold, but I'm glad we got Teena too.

Yes it did almost happen. He wrote 3 or 4 songs for Diana. One of them being the Teena Marie hit "Im a sucker for your love" He wanted to write and produce an entire album on Diana. Berry said no. Berry would only agree with a few songs but not an entire album. He was told take it or leave it. So the songs he was working on went to Teena Marie. He actually went to Diana and Diana said she would not go against what Berry wanted

[marv2]

One of my favorite cuts from Mary's debut album, "Pick Up the Pieces". it was released as a single in the U.K. in 1980:

[RanRan79]

They sure at least gave her a beautiful front cover. Wasn't she pregnant? Is the This is why I believe demo so different from the finished recording?

She is absolutely gorgeous on the cover. I don't care for the back cover as much, but the front cover is worthy of a wall.

The demo for "This Is Why I Believe In You" is 10 minutes of rehearsing and working the thing out. It's a worthwhile listen, and a testament to the work that is put into a song by the singers themselves, trying to get the elements right. "This Is Why" is not a song I particularly like, but the demo is fun to listen to.

[RanRan79]

Yes it did almost happen. He wrote 3 or 4 songs for Diana. One of them being the Teena Marie hit "Im a sucker for your love" He wanted to write and produce an entire album on Diana. Berry said no. Berry would only agree with a few songs but not an entire album. He was told take it or leave it. So the songs he was working on went to Teena Marie. He actually went to Diana and Diana said she would not go against what Berry wanted

You're right. When I read the word "almost", my mind was conjuring up this project actually getting a greenlight and then a no go. But in terms of Rick's desire, I was previously aware that he had written songs he intended for Diana and Berry said no. I have some other ideas on this but I'll save them for another thread so as not to hijack this Mary thread with Diana stuff.

As for Mary and Rick, I don't know about how that would have turned out. I'm not sure I can hear Mary doing anything Rick produced. I much better like the idea of Marvin producing her. I think Stevie or Lionel Richie would have been able to give Mary some great stuff too.