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  1. #151
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    Now you got it! Lol. Pearl Bailey and Aretha rolled into one maybe...

  2. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by luke View Post
    Now you got it! Lol. Pearl Bailey and Aretha rolled into one maybe...
    Add Mae West and Marilyn Monroe! Flo was just as ummm stacked! LOL!

  3. #153
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    You got that right "fat' is where it's at!"

  4. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by luke View Post
    You got that right "fat' is where it's at!"
    Especially in the right places! LOL!!!!

  5. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by luke View Post
    In JRT's latest edition. He said Florence's dress may have been Cindys per her sticking her stomach out...too small for Florence.
    I don't remember reading that. Must have slipped my mind. That's interesting speculation and would certainly make sense.

  6. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by BayouMotownMan View Post
    If Florence had signed with Motown she likely would have done little recording. But she would have been paid well to keep quiet. Then after Ross left, a comeback?
    Flo didn't want to only be paid, she wanted to sing. And Ross wasn't Florence's problem, Gordy was. So unless Gordy handed Motown over to someone else and then took Ross somewhere else, there was no way Florence was coming back to anything Motown/Supremes.

    In many ways Flo was her own worst enemy, which is true in just about everyone's case. That's just how life works out. But the blame for what happened to the incredible original trio of Supremes begins and ends with Berry Gordy. Diana, Flo and Mary only followed his lead.

  7. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by marv2 View Post
    To me, everything about Florence Ballard said "STAR"!
    Gordy was a great businessman and the fact that Motown itself was his doing makes him a genius in my book and I'm forever grateful to him. But he suffered from incredible tunnel vision where the Supremes were concerned. He saw the lights of Diana Ross and that's all he focused on. There was no reason why the Supremes albums shouldn't have been a multi lead showcase for all three girls, not with all the filler cuts that was shoved on to most of those albums. The live shows should have been structred the same way. Flo and Mary weren't going to outshine Diana. She was always going to do that little extra to get people's attention. Therefore Gordy was always going to get his megastar, but he didn't need to suppress Flo and Mary to do it.


    I think it was Florence who said that the best thing for the group would have been putting them all in a position to eventually go on to successful solo careers. I agree. Would Flo and Mary have been as big as Diana? Not in my opinion. Diana Ross did have a something extra that put her over the top and captivated the public. Nothing wrong with that. But Flo and Mary were very talented in their own rights. Florence had a great voice, a beautiful look, and by all accounts she was incredibly funny. The Supremes should have ended in January 1970, with Flo, Diana and Mary giving a farewell concert and then going on to three separate solo projects. And there's no reason to think that any of those projects would have flopped [[assuming great time and attention were given to each).

    I think both Diana and Florence could have been movie stars. Gordy had the chance to take a million dollar group and turn that group into three million dollar single artists, which meant more money in Gordy's pocket. Instead he took a million dollar group and turned it into a million dollar single artist and allowed the group to reduce in possible income overtime. And that third factor only increased his money as an aside: she signed away her rights to royalties and you best believe most- if not all- of her portion each year went right into his bank account.

  8. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceNHarmony View Post
    Unfortunately it seems all M'town artists were stiffed; Ashford & Simpson make brief mention of their 'terrible contract' on the 'Real Thing' video interview. The rumor is always that Florence Ballard alone was stiffed when she left the group but in fact her payout was standard-issue M'town; many other group members left with nothing.
    They weren't alone! MRAV, Teena Marie [[named a law after her lawsuit) and Brenda Holloway. [[she and her sister, Patrice, for giving Blood Sweat, and Tears their song)

  9. #159
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    Seems like except for Stevie Wonder, a lot, if not all the Motown acts had sh*tty royalty rates based off contracts they probably didn't read. Gladys Knight & the Pips being the exception since their old manager got into a screaming argument about how Motown was gonna pay 'em.

  10. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by midnightman View Post
    Seems like except for Stevie Wonder, a lot, if not all the Motown acts had sh*tty royalty rates based off contracts they probably didn't read. Gladys Knight & the Pips being the exception since their old manager got into a screaming argument about how Motown was gonna pay 'em.
    Well, Berry Gordy had a practice of not letting the artist leave the office with the contracts so that they could be reviewed by an attorney, etc. Duke Fakir relates this story in the interview from the LBJ Library, along with Claudette Robinson and Mary Wilson.

  11. #161
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    Temptations were on $250 each a week salaries through the mid 60's too..

  12. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by StuBass1 View Post
    Temptations were on $250 each a week salaries through the mid 60's too..
    So were the Supremes. Can you imagine what the Spinners and the Monitors were getting?

  13. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by StuBass1 View Post
    Temptations were on $250 each a week salaries through the mid 60's too..
    Too low. WAY too low. No way with all the hits they were making that they would only be paid $250 a week... you kidding me? That means Marvin and them were paid $250 a week. Had the J5 sign under a 2.7% royalty rate... I don't even wanna know how low a royalty rate the more classic artists got, especially the groups, which had to split it: The Marvelettes at one point spent it five ways at one point.

  14. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by marv2 View Post
    Well, Berry Gordy had a practice of not letting the artist leave the office with the contracts so that they could be reviewed by an attorney, etc. Duke Fakir relates this story in the interview from the LBJ Library, along with Claudette Robinson and Mary Wilson.
    I feel all these artists should've had an attorney looking back...

  15. #165
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    Didn’t Motown justify the allowance by giving the artists money to buy cars , furs etc that was in addition to allowance?

  16. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by luke View Post
    Didn’t Motown justify the allowance by giving the artists money to buy cars , furs etc that was in addition to allowance?
    Exactly. As late as 1974, Mary Wilson had to have Berry Gordy sign off on the funds when she wanted to buy another house. When Diana Ross left the label in 1980, Mr. Gordy "took back everything that was on loan from the company". This included the strange, geometric shape house she was living in, a yellow rolls royce and furs and jewelry!

  17. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by midnightman View Post
    I feel all these artists should've had an attorney looking back...
    They should have, but they were kids from basically up the street and off the corner. They did not know to do that.

  18. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by luke View Post
    Didn’t Motown justify the allowance by giving the artists money to buy cars , furs etc that was in addition to allowance?
    That was their way to keep them quiet so they wouldn't be asking "where was all the money?" But least he did that, Dick Griffey wouldn't even loan Jody Watley a house despite all the money Shalamar made off SOLAR.

  19. #169
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    Mary Wells royalty rate was the same as the later Jackson 5[[who signed 10 years later!) That was hard to comprehend.What was good & was also bad[[for the artist) was that Motown controlled their total career, Management & Bookings.Mary said she got $500. a week allowance after "The one Who Really Loves You" hit, but ofcourse that weekly allowance was deducted from your total earnings. She didn't know anything about filing taxes ect because Motown handled all that so she really had problems with taxes ect after leaving Motown.

  20. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by motony View Post
    Mary Wells royalty rate was the same as the later Jackson 5[[who signed 10 years later!) That was hard to comprehend.What was good & was also bad[[for the artist) was that Motown controlled their total career, Management & Bookings.Mary said she got $500. a week allowance after "The one Who Really Loves You" hit, but ofcourse that weekly allowance was deducted from your total earnings. She didn't know anything about filing taxes ect because Motown handled all that so she really had problems with taxes ect after leaving Motown.
    What kills me is this! The artists had to pay for recording studio time, costs to produce and distribute their recordings, costumes, travel, everything out of their recording royalties. It was like the company spent zilch because all costs were recouped from the artists.

  21. #171
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    ^not exactly true. the company paid for these things up front and then were reimbursed by the sales generated from the artist. the artist then received their royalty

    for a big recording group like the Supremes, once they hit the tops, it was very lucrative for motown. but what about all the earlier recordings? motown EVENTUALLY recouped this but there was no guarantee it would? what if the sups never had a big hit? all of that recording and touring costs would not have been recouped. and therefore motown would have lost money. It's minimally possible that a record company could demand that a singer repay them but doubtful

    and what about all of the acts that only did so-so? like the monitors, the Velvelettes, the elgins, etc etc etc? while they certainly didn't record or tour as much as the supremes, they were still in the studios. The velvelettes released 6 singles but recorded dozens of songs. those 6 singles certainly didn't sell much and so i would assume Motown never recouped their funds on this group

  22. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    ^not exactly true. the company paid for these things up front and then were reimbursed by the sales generated from the artist. the artist then received their royalty

    for a big recording group like the Supremes, once they hit the tops, it was very lucrative for motown. but what about all the earlier recordings? motown EVENTUALLY recouped this but there was no guarantee it would? what if the sups never had a big hit? all of that recording and touring costs would not have been recouped. and therefore motown would have lost money. It's minimally possible that a record company could demand that a singer repay them but doubtful

    and what about all of the acts that only did so-so? like the monitors, the Velvelettes, the elgins, etc etc etc? while they certainly didn't record or tour as much as the supremes, they were still in the studios. The velvelettes released 6 singles but recorded dozens of songs. those 6 singles certainly didn't sell much and so i would assume Motown never recouped their funds on this group
    It still does not make sense. In essence, the artists were paying Motown and other companies to record them since they ended up paying for all recordings whether they were released or shelved!

    In any other industry, you hire people to do a job. Whether things work out and the company gets what they want out of the employee, they cannot take back the money they have paid the individual or individuals. You say Motown never recouped their funds, how about the artists receiving even less than what Motown got?

  23. #173
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    Thumbs down

    Remember the saga with Barbara Acklin and Young-Holt Ultd., over Am I the Same Girl?? And the huff over Brenda and Patrice Holloway's song You Make Me So Very Happy with BG? Essentially, bequeathing what they birthed to Blood, Sweat, and Tears?! Really, Berry?!
    Last edited by nativeNY63; 06-21-2019 at 06:04 PM.

  24. #174
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    Yet more proof that Wilson was paid equally despite doing a fraction of the work.

  25. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceNHarmony View Post
    Yet more proof that Wilson was paid equally despite doing a fraction of the work.
    No you're wrong. She did quite a bit of work. She not only sang on recordings and live in concert, she had to learn and execute all of that choreography specific to each song. Those harmonies took work to achieve as well. You've been misguided. How old are you? In any case, it has been a lot of years since you've been living with the wrong impression about the work all of them did to present the group as a top, World class act.

  26. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by marv2 View Post
    ... How old are you? In any case, it has been a lot of years since you've been living with the wrong impression about the work all of them did to present the group as a top, World class act.
    Even DianE ???

  27. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by milven View Post
    Even DianE ???
    Ha ha ha!!!

  28. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by luke View Post
    Didn’t Motown justify the allowance by giving the artists money to buy cars , furs etc that was in addition to allowance?
    Hhmmmm...same argument can be made for the hip-hop industry today.

  29. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by marv2 View Post
    It still does not make sense. In essence, the artists were paying Motown and other companies to record them since they ended up paying for all recordings whether they were released or shelved!

    In any other industry, you hire people to do a job. Whether things work out and the company gets what they want out of the employee, they cannot take back the money they have paid the individual or individuals. You say Motown never recouped their funds, how about the artists receiving even less than what Motown got?
    the artists received "royalties" until a corporate employee that receives a salary. if a salaried employee works more than 40 hrs in a week, they typically do not qualify for overtime, per the details of their employment. it's all in how things are defined

    royalties also did not qualify for Social Security withholdings. at least back in the 60s they didn't. perhaps today they do. same with federal tax withholdings which is why so many artists and athletes get into trouble in this area. a musician doing a gig today still needs to usually withhold their own tax money.

    Ur definitely right in that a Motown artist that didn't sell didn't get paid. whatever money that did come in from their live appearances and sales had to FIRST pay motown. The contracts had a clear hierarchy of who gets what and who gets it first.

  30. #180
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    I saw Lesley Gore say that she never got a dime out of Mercury Records for 10 years after she left. Motown was better than many other record companies of the day. Still in the end, it wasn’t a pot of gold for most of their artists

  31. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by jobeterob View Post
    I saw Lesley Gore say that she never got a dime out of Mercury Records for 10 years after she left. Motown was better than many other record companies of the day. Still in the end, it wasn’t a pot of gold for most of their artists
    That was probably what happened to MOST artists. Still, Motown should've done more for their artists.

  32. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    the artists received "royalties" until a corporate employee that receives a salary. if a salaried employee works more than 40 hrs in a week, they typically do not qualify for overtime, per the details of their employment. it's all in how things are defined

    royalties also did not qualify for Social Security withholdings. at least back in the 60s they didn't. perhaps today they do. same with federal tax withholdings which is why so many artists and athletes get into trouble in this area. a musician doing a gig today still needs to usually withhold their own tax money.

    Ur definitely right in that a Motown artist that didn't sell didn't get paid. whatever money that did come in from their live appearances and sales had to FIRST pay motown. The contracts had a clear hierarchy of who gets what and who gets it first.
    So did Motown deduct the costume, travel, and recording costs off their bottom line when they in fact recouped those costs from the artists? Hum sounds like double dipping to me.

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