Mary and Diana only got $100,000 ..whaaaaat?

[thanxal]

Oh and wow!

[luke]

Good question Ozmo. Anyone know the answer?

[thanxal]

Love you, Mary.

[thanxal]

And there she goes sangin' my favorite song.

[thanxal]

And now, ladies and gentlemen, Miss Mary Wilson.
Such elegance.
Love you, Mary!

[thanxal]

Hey everybody. Notice how Don Cornelius doesn't denigrate anyone with his questions and observations. Awesome, right?

[marv2]

This thread was originally about payments made to Diana Ross and Mary Wilson by Motown and [[not surprisingly) has gone way off track.

In an attempt to get it back on subject, I have a question that has been in my head for awhile. Does anyone know whether Diana, Mary and the other artists portrayed in Motown The Musical receive any royalties or financial payment for allowing their depiction in this production?

I understand that this production has been quite successful financially and wonder whether the original artists share in this success.

I do not believe the artist receive any payments. The play is based on a book or from writings by Berry Gordy. They do use the individuals real names in the show, but I doubt they are receiving any type of royalties from it. I really don't know to be honest.

[marv2]

And there she goes sangin' my favorite song.

Oh yeah she was doing it. That was up in Syracuse during the Supremes 40th Anniversary Tour in 1999. I saw this show when she brought it to Long Island at Westbury Music Fair. That was the night they filmed Mary's segment for the documentary "Only the Strong Survive".

[thanxal]

Mary, you are the best. I hope you don't read this thread. Know we love you.

[marv2]

I wished she would keep "Stone Love" in her set list permanently. She got a huge response from the audience in New York when she performed it at Coney Island/Seaside.

[marv2]

Here's a question. I wonder if HDH and the other writers of these songs receive some form of royalty when the artists perform them live and in concert?

[thanxal]

Billie, Ella, Mary.

[thanxal]

Yes, we will honey. Yes, we will.

[marv2]

Billie, Ella, Mary.

I would add Sarah Vaughn who originally popularized this song. Mary does it more than justice!

[thanxal]

Yes, Sarah Vaughan did a great job on this, but Billie was first in 1940. Ella's version on the "Frank, Ella, Jobim" special in '67 is unparalleled.

I still love Mary Wilson.

[Roberta75]

Not a problem Marv, Mary admitted she sounded bad and it was because of medication she was on. BUT THERE WAS NO STROKE

Thank goodness you are here BayouMotownMan to balance and tell the truth to all the lies that person claims are fact. The Fact is that apart from some real shady business deal he try to get Miss Wilson involved in a few decades ago, Mary and Parnell dont really know him and they dont want to know him or be around him and thats the truth.

fondly,

Roberta

[thanxal]

Thank goodness you are here BayouMotownMan to balance and tell the truth to all the lies that person claims are fact. The Fact is Mary and Parnell dont know him and thats the truth.

fondly,

Roberta

Mary Wilson is a true SUPREME. She rises above all.

[marv2]

Yes, Sarah Vaughan did a great job on this, but Billie was first in 1940. Ella's version on the "Frank, Ella, Jobim" special in '67 is unparalleled.


I still love Mary Wilson.

Ella Fitzgerald was a once in a lifetime artist. She just had music and melody in her bones! Love her, love Mary!

[Ozmo]

I do not believe the artist receive any payments. The play is based on a book or from writings by Berry Gordy. They do use the individuals real names in the show, but I doubt they are receiving any type of royalties from it. I really don't know to be honest.

Thanks. You are probably correct. I have to say that the artists themselves seem to be quite supportive of the show. I would imagine that it would be quite a thrill to see yourself portrayed in a hit musical!

[Roberta75]

Mary Wilson is a true SUPREME. She rises above all.

And thank God for that.

[marv2]

She certainly have a flair for the dramatic. I wished everyone had the opportunity to see them do this in the round, smoke machines and all!

[thanxal]

Ella Fitzgerald was a once in a lifetime artist. She just had music and melody in her bones! Love her, love Mary!

Yes. I agree completely.

[thanxal]

And thank God for that.

You know the truth.

[detmotownguy]

My fav also- Mary really tears into it.

[detmotownguy]

Constitution Hall in DC?

[marv2]

Constitution Hall in DC?

Yes! The "Body and Soul" clip is from the Constitution Hall Symphony concert. She performed "Strange Fruit" and read from a book about Dread Scott, she did "Love Child", "My World is Empty", "Ne Mas Quitte Pas", "God Bless America", "Walk the Line" "Spring is Here" among other songs. The concert was 2 hours and 15 mins. long!

[midnightman]

Motown ripped off a lot of artists. They basically put them on salaries instead of what was standard procedure back then, which wasn't any better, but Motown's dealings were even worse.

[midnightman]

I remember Cindy saying that. It was a real odd combination and Kelly Rowland didnt help. They all sounded terrible and them dresses looked nothing like the Supremes would wear and trust me the Supremes wouldnt have been stuck up on that balcony if Diane had been there. Theyd have been front and center on the main stage.

Motown 45 was a disaster for all involved. I didn't enjoy it at all... especially considering all the mess Michael was in. They had the nerve to bring in Donny Osmond to sing with Jermaine. The Hail? LOL

[Bluebrock]

I dont think Suzanne has a problem with the 70s Supremes I thinks she believes the 70s Supremes arent as recognized as the 60s Supremes. The only person that have a problem with a 70s Supreme is you and your dislike of Lynda Lawrence and you also dont like Suzanne De Passé who a lot of us here like.

I met Lynda Lawrence for the first time earlier this year and she was an absolute delight. One of the nicest, funniest and wittiest ladies in showbusiness, and certainly more open and honest than a certain other former Supreme who is practically regarded as a saint by certain people on here. Enough said.

[Bluebrock]

Yes, Sarah Vaughan did a great job on this, but Billie was first in 1940. Ella's version on the "Frank, Ella, Jobim" special in '67 is unparalleled.

I still love Mary Wilson.

I agree. This version by Ella is the definitive one by by a country mile. They didn't call her the first lady of song for no reason.

[RanRan79]

Y'all can't stay on topic for shit. How does the subject of the Supremes' royalties devolve into attacks on the Supremes themselves and attacks on members of SD? Does anyone else think there's something wrong with this picture?

Someone said the talk about royalties is conjecture. Maybe. But Florence's royalty situation IMO has been pretty well documented and no one who could have done so has come out to say that all of the talk is erroneous. What we know is that Florence walked away with some 160 grand, no rights to future royalties and no right to use the last six years of her work history [[the time she was an actual Supreme, not a Primette). It's difficult to believe that Flo was entitled to only 160 grand of the millions she undoubtedly helped bring into Motown. Asking someone to give up the rights to their work in many industries is indeed something that happens. I personally think there's no debating that the practice is unfair. And sorry, but in my book demanding that Florence be barred from publicizing her work as a Supreme was just Gordy and company sticking it to her one final time. There was no reason to do that. Giving her less money as severance= keeping more money for Motown. Keeping her from receiving future royalties= keeping more money for Motown. Not allowing that girl to say she was a Supreme= Gordy wanted to make it as difficult as possible for Florence to move on and be successful. As much as the sentiment "it's not personal, it's business" gets thrown around, the FACT is that business gets personal all the time, and there's no doubt that whatever was going on between Gordy and Florence was personal.

As for Diana and Mary, both have been vocal about how much money they walked away with from Motown. I have no reason to call them liars. And while they both may have walked away from the company with even less money than Florence did, there is one big difference between them: Mary, at a more mature age than Florence was, didn't give a shit about being barred from using the name Supremes to promote herself [[and she has fared better because of it), and Diana didn't need the name to promote herself. But to say that 100 grand, or even 2 or 3 grand, is what either woman was worth for what she made for Motown is nonsense.

Florence was shafted. I'm surprised that anyone would argue otherwise.

[luke]

I don't think people think of Diana as a saint.

[luke]

Good summary RR. Unfortunately when some people speak up for Florence others can take it as a negative towards others. Kind of like when Flo tried to speak up for herself!

[marv2]

Motown 45 was a disaster for all involved. I didn't enjoy it at all... especially considering all the mess Michael was in. They had the nerve to bring in Donny Osmond to sing with Jermaine. The Hail? LOL

That was Nick Lachey who with Jermaine Jackson.

[marv2]

Y'all can't stay on topic for shit. How does the subject of the Supremes' royalties devolve into attacks on the Supremes themselves and attacks on members of SD? Does anyone else think there's something wrong with this picture?

Someone said the talk about royalties is conjecture. Maybe. But Florence's royalty situation IMO has been pretty well documented and no one who could have done so has come out to say that all of the talk is erroneous. What we know is that Florence walked away with some 160 grand, no rights to future royalties and no right to use the last six years of her work history [[the time she was an actual Supreme, not a Primette). It's difficult to believe that Flo was entitled to only 160 grand of the millions she undoubtedly helped bring into Motown. Asking someone to give up the rights to their work in many industries is indeed something that happens. I personally think there's no debating that the practice is unfair. And sorry, but in my book demanding that Florence be barred from publicizing her work as a Supreme was just Gordy and company sticking it to her one final time. There was no reason to do that. Giving her less money as severance= keeping more money for Motown. Keeping her from receiving future royalties= keeping more money for Motown. Not allowing that girl to say she was a Supreme= Gordy wanted to make it as difficult as possible for Florence to move on and be successful. As much as the sentiment "it's not personal, it's business" gets thrown around, the FACT is that business gets personal all the time, and there's no doubt that whatever was going on between Gordy and Florence was personal.

As for Diana and Mary, both have been vocal about how much money they walked away with from Motown. I have no reason to call them liars. And while they both may have walked away from the company with even less money than Florence did, there is one big difference between them: Mary, at a more mature age than Florence was, didn't give a shit about being barred from using the name Supremes to promote herself [[and she has fared better because of it), and Diana didn't need the name to promote herself. But to say that 100 grand, or even 2 or 3 grand, is what either woman was worth for what she made for Motown is nonsense.

Florence was shafted. I'm surprised that anyone would argue otherwise.

People argue the point all the time and it just makes me scratch my head at the inhumanity of it all. People say "Well, Flo did it to herself" and I always say bullshit. She did not do all of those things you mentioned to herself.

[marv2]

And if that's the case then Florence's heirs, and Mary Wilson also, should be handed a check for the reimbursement of recording sessions that they were surely charged for but someone else was called in her place. You're right, this money thing gets very complicated.

In Mary Wilson 1977-78 lawsuit it was brought out that according to her Supremes contract with Motown that she could not be replaced on recordings or performances for any reason except physical incapacity! That, along with the fact that the girls signed their contracts at age 16 without any legal representation is what got Motown in the most trouble, so they settled with Mary. These contract clauses would have held true for Florence and Diane as well.

[BayouMotownMan]

In Mary Wilson 1977-78 lawsuit it was brought out that according to her Supremes contract with Motown that she could not be replaced on recordings or performances for any reason except physical incapacity! That, along with the fact that the girls signed their contracts at age 16 without any legal representation is what got Motown in the most trouble, so they settled with Mary. These contract clauses would have held true for Florence and Diane as well.

This is inaccurate, Mary talks about this in her second book. Her initial lawsuit with Motown in 1977 was dismissed by both parties when Mary signed a solo contract with Motown. Mary admitted the obvious, Motown only gave her a contract to stop the lawsuit. Mary had a succession of lawyers she paid a fortune to for lawsuits that were groundless in most cases. Much of what Mary claimed about Motown when she signed in 1961 was true; however after the success of WDOLG the girls signed new contracts, and signed many more in the years that followed. Mary finally got a settlement in 1990 when she signed over the name to Berry Gordy after Gordy sold Motown Records. Then as the 1990s progressed Mary brought numerous lawsuits against former Supremes over use of the name and lost all. In a final degradation she sued Kaaren Ragland, a Supreme signed to Mary and NOT to Motown in the mid 1990s. Ragland had her contract with Mary's Supremes Inc and because of that the judge in LA declared Ragland to be an official Supreme and Mary lost again. To add insult to injury Ragland countersued Mary for legal fees and damages and received an out of court settlement. At this point Mary finally stopped suing people over a name she gave up the rights to.

As far as Flo, as tragic as the situation was Flo did most of this to herself. She didn't have the foresight Mary had to just go with the program until Diana left and then Flo could have taken over. By causing tensions and missing concerts she put herself in a position where Motown had to fire her; anybody would have. She just was not dependable. Her settlement of $160,000 in 1968 was actually good money; probably 1.5 to 2 million in todays market, plus she had other investments. Flo chose a non-entertainment attorney who took advantage of Flo. It was her attorney who did her in more than Motown. Motown even offered Flo a solo contract. Florence just made a series of bad decisions that nobody else should be blamed for. She got what her Motown contract allowed for. Flo was a singer and not a writer/producer; they were the ones who got the bigger money and residuals from music publishing.

[marv2]

This is inaccurate, Mary talks about this in her second book. Her initial lawsuit with Motown in 1977 was dismissed by both parties when Mary signed a solo contract with Motown. Mary admitted the obvious, Motown only gave her a contract to stop the lawsuit.

Nope! Although I don't have time right now to go through all of this, but Marko A. Turk, Mary's attorney at that time pursued this lawsuit for just over a solid year! Motown wasn't settling and Mary wasn't having it. They fought all through the entire year of 1978! There was a whole lot more to this but this all I can do right now.

[PeaceNHarmony]

Some say Mary actually got a better deal since she assumed credit for recordings she never sang on.

[marv2]

Some say Mary actually got a better deal since she assumed credit for recordings she never sang on.

Mary is a boss!

[RanRan79]

As far as Flo, as tragic as the situation was Flo did most of this to herself. She didn't have the foresight Mary had to just go with the program until Diana left and then Flo could have taken over. By causing tensions and missing concerts she put herself in a position where Motown had to fire her; anybody would have. She just was not dependable. Her settlement of $160,000 in 1968 was actually good money; probably 1.5 to 2 million in todays market, plus she had other investments. Flo chose a non-entertainment attorney who took advantage of Flo. It was her attorney who did her in more than Motown. Motown even offered Flo a solo contract. Florence just made a series of bad decisions that nobody else should be blamed for. She got what her Motown contract allowed for. Flo was a singer and not a writer/producer; they were the ones who got the bigger money and residuals from music publishing.

Florence's immaturity as a very young lady as it relates to her time as a Supreme is irrelevant to the question of whether she got the shaft from Motown. What happened to Florence during her official exit from Motown was a combination of business as usual [[it's the norm for a company to try to retain as much capital as possible) and the personal. The best decision Florence probably made in all of this was not signing a solo contract with Motown. Berry Gordy wasn't interested in showcasing her as a Supreme, so who really thinks he would have been interested in pushing her as solo artist? [[She may- MAY- have gotten into the studio for a couple of UNRELEASED cuts.) Barring her from being able to capitalize on her most successful years as a singer was just mean and nasty.

She made a lot of bad decisions, but there were grown men in the room who pounced on it. One of the things most wrong in the world today [[and yesterday) is that people think just because they can do [[insert negative thing here) to someone that it means they should do it and that no one should be mad about it.

And if we're going to talk about the way Florence handled her issues within the group, we also have to talk about the way Gordy handled that situation. The argument could be made that the problems in the Supremes that resulted in Florence's firing could have been avoided altogether if the head of the company had been a bit more mature and a little less cruel.

[marv2]

Oh they were terrible with Florence. The same guy that fired Florence in person, also fired a very good friend of mine. The hatchet man was a very nasty fellow.........

[luke]

Quite true RR and Marv. Mary should be praised for fighting to try to keep the name Supremes authentic. How galling it must have been to see the Tempts and Tops keep their group names. Michigan court ruled In Florence's favor. To blame a 21 year old woman for a corporations machinations is just revictimizing her again. Florence missed a few dates and hated to fly. How about Diana collapsing in Boston and walking out of the Latin Casino?? People are human. In JRT's latest edition. He said Florence's dress may have been Cindys per her sticking her stomach out...too small for Florence. Can you imagine firing Paul McCartney if he stuck his butt out? Gimme a break.

[BayouMotownMan]

Mary is a boss!

Yes and we all saw what happened when she became one

[BayouMotownMan]

If Florence had signed with Motown she likely would have done little recording. But she would have been paid well to keep quiet. Then after Ross left, a comeback?

[marv2]

Quite true RR and Marv. Mary should be praised for fighting to try to keep the name Supremes authentic. How galling it must have been to see the Tempts and Tops keep their group names. Michigan court ruled In Florence's favor. To blame a 21 year old woman for a corporations machinations is just revictimizing her again. Florence missed a few dates and hated to fly. How about Diana collapsing in Boston and walking out of the Latin Casino?? People are human. In JRT's latest edition. He said Florence's dress may have been Cindys per her sticking her stomach out...too small for Florence. Can you imagine firing Paul McCartney if he stuck his butt out? Gimme a break.

It was entirely sexist, but it was the sixties! If Diane was all that matter, then no one would have been paying attention to Florence Ballard.....right?

[marv2]

Yes and we all saw what happened when she became one

I meant in the broader sense.......gee@!

[marv2]

If Florence had signed with Motown she likely would have done little recording. But she would have been paid well to keep quiet. Then after Ross left, a comeback?

That was never going to happened. What went down between her and Mr. Gordy was personal. It's not out there for public consumption.

[luke]

Very true. Florence sure mattered because she was willing to speak the truth and in any dysfunctional system that gets you kicked out!! [[She was also a great singer, very attractive, and funny as hell ..hence a threat)

[marv2]

Very true. Florence sure mattered because she was willing to speak the truth and in any dysfunctional system that gets you kicked out!! [[She was also a great singer, very attractive, and funny as hell ..hence a threat)

To me, everything about Florence Ballard said "STAR"!