The Last Days Of Motown

[PeaceNHarmony]

Tom - interesting about the later-days Motown staff writers. I did not realize M'tn still had staff writers -

[phil]

"Classic Motown" ended in 1972-73 when Gordy moved the company out of Detroit.

So true Marv, the dream was over.

[reese]

Ok, now this is freaking me out... Al Green material was released on the Motown label? What!? How did this happen?

I think Motown must have gotten rights and/or distributed some HI recordings at one point. I remember some of Al's albums being re-released by Motown on vinyl. Then when the CD era began, a lot of these were released yet again. Some VJ recordings by Jimmy Reed and Little Richard also ended up being released on cd by Motown as well.

[marv2]

So true Marv, the dream was over.

Phil, few people know that more than half of the Motown Company were either left or stayed behind in Detroit. Many of it's staff personnel and many of the early artists that were on their roster. This is what made it so easy for British producer, Ian Levine to round so many up and record them again in the late 80s.

[McMotown]

Has anyone got a rough idea how many people were working for Motown before the company left Detroit?

[motony]

as far as I am concerned, once Motown left Detroit it because just another record label, nothing unique or special.

[luke]

Is Stevie still signed to Motown?

[jobeterob]

Yeah...tell that to Mary Wilson. :-)

Sadly for almost all the background people, this is how Motown ended - hitless and struggling often resulting in the bitterness we've seen.

Outside of Berry Diana Smokey Lionel And Stevie-that was how motown ended.

[Motown Eddie]

Ok, now this is freaking me out... Al Green material was released on the Motown label? What!? How did this happen?

This happened because Hi Records [[Al Green's record label) made a distribution deal with Motown in 1983 which lasted through 1988. After the Motown deal ended, the Hi Records catalog would be distributed by MCA, Capitol-EMI, and their current distributors, Fat Possum Records.

[marv2]

as far as I am concerned, once Motown left Detroit it because just another record label, nothing unique or special.

Yes, they basically became just another recording company and the music suffered because of it.

[TomatoTom123]

Tom - interesting about the later-days Motown staff writers. I did not realize M'tn still had staff writers -

Yea, PNH, they still had 'em! And, even into the 1980s, you had Motown artists producing other Motown artists, like Stevie Wonder, Jermaine Jackson and Rick James. I do love a good collaboration

[TomatoTom123]

Yes, they basically became just another recording company and the music suffered because of it.

Do you think Motown could have continued to be the successful label that it was in the '60s had it stayed in Detroit?

[TomatoTom123]

I think Motown must have gotten rights and/or distributed some HI recordings at one point. I remember some of Al's albums being re-released by Motown on vinyl. Then when the CD era began, a lot of these were released yet again. Some VJ recordings by Jimmy Reed and Little Richard also ended up being released on cd by Motown as well.

This happened because Hi Records [[Al Green's record label) made a distribution deal with Motown in 1983 which lasted through 1988. After the Motown deal ended, the Hi Records catalog would be distributed by MCA, Capitol-EMI, and their current distributors, Fat Possum Records.

Thanks guys. Interesting! But that doesn't mean you can count Al Green as a Motown artist, right??!!

[reese]

Thanks guys. Interesting! But that doesn't mean you can count Al Green as a Motown artist, right??!!

I wouldn't count Al as a Motown artist. He was never signed to the label.

[TomatoTom123]

I wouldn't count Al as a Motown artist. He was never signed to the label.

Yea, me too. But what about that Chisa label that Motown distributed? Could you consider its artists Motown artists?

So many Qs...

[marv2]

Do you think Motown could have continued to be the successful label that it was in the '60s had it stayed in Detroit?

Yes! Just as Philadelphia International was hugely successful in their home town. I believe if Motown had kept the music end of their business in Detroit and focused on that core business, they would have remained unbeatable! You had many young artists left in Detroit that never got heard outside of Detroit and trust me, some were excellent! The music got diluted and side - track once they moved to LA because of Berry's desire to do movies, etc.

[marv2]

I wouldn't count Al as a Motown artist. He was never signed to the label.

No Al Green was not a Motown artist. He worked with and knew many of them though from the touring circuit.

[marv2]

Marv, you disagree with my now-nonsensical and random post!!!! I don't even agree with me anymore. Or do I? LOL

Anyways, you make an interesting point about Stevie's Signed, Sealed, Delivered album. "Never Had A Dream Come True" is indeed a delightful slice of Motown. However, I kinda think "Signed, Sealed, Delivered" is a little too funky to be 'classic Motown' and is more an indicator of where Motown music [[i.e. Stevie) was headed. "Heaven Help Us All" is a little too gospel-ish and socially-conscious to fit into the squeaky-clean radio-friendly Motown of the 1960s, for me.

To me, "Heaven Help Us All" was similar to Stevie's popular 60s holiday recording "Someday At Christmas". Think about the lyrics to both songs.

[Sotosound]

To my ears, the early 70s J5 sound was a bit like a pop-ey version of Motown, and the mixing and mastering had some classic Motown values to them. And even as we moved towards the mid-70s there were still some production values there which made Motown stand out. To my ears they just weren't as attractive as the Philly sound or the Barry White sound etc., however.

Regarding "Signed, Sealed, Delivered", I see that as evolutionary rather than revolutionary. Motown evolved throughout its time in Detroit, and the move from the late 60s into the early 70s was just evolution. For instance, Norman Whitfield's psychedelic soul was Motown through and through. So was Frank Wilson's work with the Supremes and Four Tops.

Does it sound like HDH from 1966, however? Not really. Does it sound like anything else in the late 60s and early 70s? Not really. It was still Motown, with the Funk Brothers and very clear and unique production values.

[marv2]

To my ears, the early 70s J5 sound was a bit like a pop-ey version of Motown, and the mixing and mastering had some classic Motown values to them. And even as we moved towards the mid-70s there were still some production values there which made Motown stand out. To my ears they just weren't as attractive as the Philly sound or the Barry White sound etc., however.

Regarding "Signed, Sealed, Delivered", I see that as evolutionary rather than revolutionary. Motown evolved throughout its time in Detroit, and the move from the late 60s into the early 70s was just evolution. For instance, Norman Whitfield's psychedelic soul was Motown through and through. So was Frank Wilson's work with the Supremes and Four Tops.

Does it sound like HDH from 1966, however? Not really. Does it sound like anything else in the late 60s and early 70s? Not really. It was still Motown, with the Funk Brothers and very clear and unique production values.

I agree! Great post Sotosound.

[TomatoTom123]

To my ears, the early 70s J5 sound was a bit like a pop-ey version of Motown, and the mixing and mastering had some classic Motown values to them. And even as we moved towards the mid-70s there were still some production values there which made Motown stand out. To my ears they just weren't as attractive as the Philly sound or the Barry White sound etc., however.

Regarding "Signed, Sealed, Delivered", I see that as evolutionary rather than revolutionary. Motown evolved throughout its time in Detroit, and the move from the late 60s into the early 70s was just evolution. For instance, Norman Whitfield's psychedelic soul was Motown through and through. So was Frank Wilson's work with the Supremes and Four Tops.

Does it sound like HDH from 1966, however? Not really. Does it sound like anything else in the late 60s and early 70s? Not really. It was still Motown, with the Funk Brothers and very clear and unique production values.

Mmm, interesting points, Sotosound. I agree that Motown was always evolving its sound. But, apart from The Funk Brothers' wonderful playing and the excellent production -- and it just being generally fantastic Soul music -- Norman Whitfield's extended psychedelic epics, the brooding, cinematic soul sounding like something out of a Blaxpoitation movie, has almost nothing to do with the catchy, radio-friendly blend of danceable Pop-Soul -- the 'Motown Sound' -- for me. Both are fantastic in their own ways, of course!

[Sotosound]

Mmm, interesting points, Sotosound. I agree that Motown was always evolving its sound. But, apart from The Funk Brothers' wonderful playing and the excellent production -- and it just being generally fantastic Soul music -- Norman Whitfield's extended psychedelic epics, the brooding, cinematic soul sounding like something out of a Blaxpoitation movie, has almost nothing to do with the catchy, radio-friendly blend of danceable Pop-Soul -- the 'Motown Sound' -- for me. Both are fantastic in their own ways, of course!

It's funny, really. I have friends who ask me to play some Motown, and if I play The Stylistics or Three Degrees or Barry White or Johnny Bristol or O'Jays, i.e. no Motown at all they get what they actually had in mind.

I also understand, however, about what you call "the 'Motown Sound'.

For me, I really became aware of Motown in 1969, and my first Motown single was probably part of the evolutionary stuff, being "Don't Know Why I Love You" by Stevie Wonder.

After that, I started to acquire a broader mixture, including the three Chartbusters albums that were available then, plus the Four Tops' "Reach Out" LP and a mono copy of the DRATS "Reflections" LP.

From my perspective, it was all on EMI's Tamla Motown label and all fantastic Motown music. Hence we probably come at this from different angles and, in reality, The Motown Sound will mean different things for different folks.

As for what my friends ask me to play, however, that falls under the heading of "No comment."

[daviddh]

great thread. I always thought that Motown ended when it was sold.
now reading various posts I see it may be different. its kind of like when the supremes ended. to some it ended in aug 67 but then again the supremes would exist for another 10 years and in many ways they still exist through all of us as does motown

[Motown Eddie]

Yea, me too. But what about that Chisa label that Motown distributed? Could you consider its artists Motown artists?

So many Qs...

No, you can't count any of the artists who were singed to Chisa Records as Motown artists. Motown only distributed Chisa from 1969 through 1972 [[after which they were handled by Blue Thumb Records). Also, several of the Rock groups who appeared on Motown's Rare Earth label were under contract to EMI [[or Polydor) overseas and their recordings were only licensed to Motown/Rare Earth. These artists cannot be considered Motown artists either.

[TomatoTom123]

It's funny, really. I have friends who ask me to play some Motown, and if I play The Stylistics or Three Degrees or Barry White or Johnny Bristol or O'Jays, i.e. no Motown at all they get what they actually had in mind.

I also understand, however, about what you call "the 'Motown Sound'.

For me, I really became aware of Motown in 1969, and my first Motown single was probably part of the evolutionary stuff, being "Don't Know Why I Love You" by Stevie Wonder.

After that, I started to acquire a broader mixture, including the three Chartbusters albums that were available then, plus the Four Tops' "Reach Out" LP and a mono copy of the DRATS "Reflections" LP.

From my perspective, it was all on EMI's Tamla Motown label and all fantastic Motown music. Hence we probably come at this from different angles and, in reality, The Motown Sound will mean different things for different folks.

As for what my friends ask me to play, however, that falls under the heading of "No comment."

Haaa... I guess for non-Motown lovers/obsessors 'Motown' just means 'any old Soul music'...!

I think you can kinda separate between 'Motown the label' and 'Motown the genre'... for me, a song that has the 'Motown sound' doesn't have to be from a particular year or by a particular artist, it just has to have that Motown feel! I mean, "My Destiny" is more Motown than "Love Child" or "Psychedelic Shack" IMO. Hell, "Chain Reaction" is more Motown than "Last Time I Saw Him"...!!!

But you're right, Sotosound, the 'Motown sound' can mean whatever you want it to mean... within reason... lol

[TomatoTom123]

great thread. I always thought that Motown ended when it was sold.
now reading various posts I see it may be different. its kind of like when the supremes ended. to some it ended in aug 67 but then again the supremes would exist for another 10 years and in many ways they still exist through all of us as does motown

Hey, david, I think I agree with you there. I might say that the 'classic Motown era' ended in the early 1970s but 'Motown' really, fully ended in 1988 when Berry sold it! Although I might also say that "My Destiny" is the last true Motown song...

And of course the Motown legacy lives on!!!!

[TomatoTom123]

No, you can't count any of the artists who were singed to Chisa Records as Motown artists. Motown only distributed Chisa from 1969 through 1972 [[after which they were handled by Blue Thumb Records). Also, several of the Rock groups who appeared on Motown's Rare Earth label were under contract to EMI [[or Polydor) overseas and their recordings were only licensed to Motown/Rare Earth. These artists cannot be considered Motown artists either.

Ah, OK, thanks Eddie. My OCD is kept at bay. Lol

If they could be considered Motown artists you would have to do so with Judas Preist too as their Sad Wings Of Destiny was distributed by Motown in the US!!!! BLECH

[Motown Eddie]

Ah, OK, thanks Eddie. My OCD is kept at bay. Lol

If they could be considered Motown artists you would have to do so with Judas Preist too as their Sad Wings Of Destiny was distributed by Motown in the US!!!! BLECH

You're welcome. And the distribution deal that Gull Records [[Judas Priest's label at the time) had with Motown was so short [[1975-1976) that by the time Sad Wings Of Destiny came out in the States, it was distributed by GRT Records [[on their Janus label). Another side note: JP's first LP, Rocka Rolla [[from 1974) didn't receive a release in the US until 1979 [[on Visa Records).

[marv2]

great thread. I always thought that Motown ended when it was sold.
now reading various posts I see it may be different. its kind of like when the supremes ended. to some it ended in aug 67 but then again the supremes would exist for another 10 years and in many ways they still exist through all of us as does motown

For me, the Supremes ended on June 12, 1977. Ironically, I was standing in front of the building where I was on the day they were giving their farewell concert. Very hard to believe it's been 40 years already.

[TomatoTom123]

You're welcome. And the distribution deal that Gull Records [[Judas Priest's label at the time) had with Motown was so short [[1975-1976) that by the time Sad Wings Of Destiny came out in the States, it was distributed by GRT Records [[on their Janus label). Another side note: JP's first LP, Rocka Rolla [[from 1974) didn't receive a release in the US until 1979 [[on Visa Records).

Oh right! I never knew that. Thanks Eddie.

I found an acetate of Rocka Rolla on Motown: https://www.discogs.com/Judas-Priest...elease/5746482

[daviddh]

I really enjoyed Standing In The Shadows Of Motown. Highly recommend it.
I think had Motown kept the Detroit location open things would have been different for do many

[Motown Eddie]

For me, the final high point for Motown is the Motown 25 TV special in 1983. I know that the show was flawed but several of the performances made the show worthwhile. And the end of Motown came when it was sold to Universal Music and became just a "label" in 2005.

[marv2]

Mmm, interesting points, Sotosound. I agree that Motown was always evolving its sound. But, apart from The Funk Brothers' wonderful playing and the excellent production -- and it just being generally fantastic Soul music -- Norman Whitfield's extended psychedelic epics, the brooding, cinematic soul sounding like something out of a Blaxpoitation movie, has almost nothing to do with the catchy, radio-friendly blend of danceable Pop-Soul -- the 'Motown Sound' -- for me. Both are fantastic in their own ways, of course!

If you couldn't dance to Norman Whitfield's productions on the Temptations, you had to have been cripple or asleep. LOL! Whew! "The Corporation" that did their thing with the J-5 also had some very danceable grooves, but with lighter, bubblegum lyrics for the kids.

[marv2]

I really enjoyed Standing In The Shadows Of Motown. Highly recommend it.
I think had Motown kept the Detroit location open things would have been different for do many

Ironically, "Classic Motown" saw a rebirth, even if short-lived after that program. The Four Tops and I believe Jr. Walker resigned to Motown and then there was the soundtrack to "The Big Chill" and later "Dirty Dancing".