I Hear a Symphony UK vs US

[luke]

I remember first hearing this song and felt it was magic and it stormed to top of US charts. Any thoughts on why it stalled at 39 in UK?

[TomatoTom123]

Hmm, interesting. Most Motown songs that hit #1 in the US also got a good chart position in the UK. However, this one and "Back In My Arms Again" [[#40) barely scraped the Top 40. I don't know why but it sure is outrageous! Lol

ALSO - and this really is outrageous - the original release of "My Girl" in 1964 only managed a #43 placement - I mean, what's all that about!!??

[luke]

I Hear A Symphony is so distinctive it's even more of a puzzlement to me. I think I read somewhere that many in the U.K.reacted to it as kind of scmaltzy pop saccharine

[biggestfourtops fan]

Maybe the UK crowd was still into the more traditional Supremes sound. I do wish the I HEAR A SYMPHONY album would've had more original material. Those standards weren't the best standards.

[marv2]

It may have been a promotion problem. I remember Motown complaining about a tour they did over there in 1965 that they dubbed "the Ghost Tour" because hardly anyone showed up for the concerts. Another could have been the number of radio outlets there at the time that played the music.

[westgrandboulevard]

You are quite right, Marv.

It was a promotional problem for Motown, and not limited to just The Supremes.

There were 53 Motown singles released in the UK, in 1965.

Many sold steadily, usually in cities like London, Liverpool and Manchester. However, not in sufficient numbers, within a short period, to achieve a listing on the national charts.

The only UK hits for Motown in 1965 :

Come See About Me - The Supremes, [[Stateside label; #27)
My Girl - The Temptations, [[Stateside; #43)
Stop! In The Name Of Love - The Supremes [[Tamla Motown label, #7)
Nowhere To Run - Martha & The Vandellas, [[TM, #26)
I Can't Help Myself - Four Tops, [[TM #23)
Back In My Arms Again - The Supremes, [[TM,#40)
It's The Same Old Song - Four Tops, [[TM, #34)
I Hear A Symphony - The Supremes [[TM,#39)

[Bluebrock]

I think a lot of it was down to exposure. Prior to radio 1 starting in 1967 US artists had a tough time get airplay in the UK. It was a vintage time for UK artists both in the UK and USA . Radio 1 embraced the Motown sound and as a result many more artists began having hits in the UK due to their songs being given regular National airplay. As regards IHAS it has always been a personal favourite of mine , but all this happened before my time , but to my ears it is up there with the best Supremes songs. I am surprised Motown give it another shot in the late 60's when the standard of Supremes singles had dropped dramatically. They managed it with several other artists so why not with the Supremes? I can only assume that Berry Gordy perhaps did not want "old" Supremes songs hampering the progress of "new" Supremes songs.

[honest man]

I remember first hearing this song and felt it was magic and it stormed to top of US charts. Any thoughts on why it stalled at 39 in UK?

I Have loved this song for decades but even more special since Mr Berry Gordy himself chose it as his favourite song of all time this year,and the connection of his undying love for Miss Diana Ross,beautiful.

[daviddh]

I have always thought it strange that some of these songs did not make it as even Love Is An Itching In my Heart, did not make it although I did read it became a hit in 1975.
I assumed that they were not touring UK at the time and as a result songs did not chart as well.
but here in USA songs such as Automatically Sunshine became a hit in UK but not here where it stalled at #37. I still feel it would have done better with a few tv appearances.

[Sotosound]

I think a lot of it was down to exposure. Prior to radio 1 starting in 1967 US artists had a tough time get airplay in the UK. It was a vintage time for UK artists both in the UK and USA . Radio 1 embraced the Motown sound and as a result many more artists began having hits in the UK due to their songs being given regular National airplay. As regards IHAS it has always been a personal favourite of mine , but all this happened before my time , but to my ears it is up there with the best Supremes songs. I am surprised Motown give it another shot in the late 60's when the standard of Supremes singles had dropped dramatically. They managed it with several other artists so why not with the Supremes? I can only assume that Berry Gordy perhaps did not want "old" Supremes songs hampering the progress of "new" Supremes songs.

I suspect that the rise of Tamla Motown in the UK really began when pirate radio got a grip. By the time that the pirates were outlawed and Radio 1 arrived in September 1967, Tamla Motown was already huge, and there were enough hits to enable the release of the very first British Motown Chartbusters LP, with sleeve notes from ex-pirate radio DJ Mike Raven.

As for why "I Hear A Symphony" wasn't as massive in the UK, I suspect that this is down to cultural and taste differences between the USA and the UK. Our charts were massively different.

With regard to Motown, we even charted tracks that were either non-single tracks in the USA [["Do What You Gotta Do" by Four Tops, for instance) or that had been relegated to B-sides in the USA [["Behind A Painted Smile" by the Isley Brothers, "Forget Me Not" by Martha Reeves and The Vandellas, and "Farewell Is A Lonely Sound" by Jimmy Ruffin, for instance).

[lockhartgary]

Here's a Youtube video that touches on the Motown UK tour in the 1960's

[roger]

I think a lot of it was down to exposure. Prior to radio 1 starting in 1967 US artists had a tough time get airplay in the UK. It was a vintage time for UK artists both in the UK and USA . Radio 1 embraced the Motown sound and as a result many more artists began having hits in the UK due to their songs being given regular National airplay. As regards IHAS it has always been a personal favourite of mine , but all this happened before my time , but to my ears it is up there with the best Supremes songs. I am surprised Motown give it another shot in the late 60's when the standard of Supremes singles had dropped dramatically. They managed it with several other artists so why not with the Supremes? I can only assume that Berry Gordy perhaps did not want "old" Supremes songs hampering the progress of "new" Supremes songs.

WOW!! Someone here has really been taken in by the self-publicizing propaganda spurted by The BBC over the past 39 years.

In the three years prior to Radio One starting there were plenty of American records being played on the offshore "pirate" stations, and also on Radio Luxembourg for that matter, it is just that 1965 coincided with the peak of British "Beat" music [[known as "British Invasion" music in the US) and people in general tended to take more notice of British groups so the likes of The Beatles, Stones, Kinks, Animals, Searchers etc. etc. etc. tended to dominate the UK national charts. By late 1966 constant exposure of Motown on the "Pirate" stations had led to a big breakthrough and, in my opinion, the launch of Radio One combined with the hounding off the air of their opposition was a backward step for UK exposure of American music, which can be seen by how poorly Motown fared in The UK charts in 1968 compared with 1966/7.

During 1965 the offshore pirates did play a lot of Motown records, particularly HDH productions by The Supremes and Four Tops and "Symphony" made it onto the station charts [[which were based on "action/popularity" rather than "sales") of the two most listened to stations ... peaking at #24 on 12 Dec on Radio London and #20 on 19th Dec on Caroline ..

http://www.radiolondon.co.uk/rl/scra...fab121265.html
http://www.radiolondon.co.uk/carolin...018%201965.htm

I have to admit that back around 1971, when I bought a UK Chart History book, I was surprised to see how poorly "I Hear A symphony" had fared, as i could remember it getting heavy airplay and had assumed it had been a Top 10 hit. However, as Sotosound has suggested, in retrospect I think it was just a touch too sophisticated for the Great British public at the time ...

Roger

[Sotosound]

However, as Sotosound has suggested, in retrospect I think it was just a touch too sophisticated for the Great British public at the time ...
Roger

Too sophisticated? Maybe? Maybe, however, it just didn't suit British tastes.

To look at this in another way, and to make and break a point, we Brits put "Feels Like I'm In Love" by Kelly Marie at number 1 whilst "One Day I'll Fly Away" by Randy Crawford languished at number 2. Unabashed commerciality beat sophistication.

Having said that, where was "One Day I'll Fly Away" in the US charts?

Also, which song was used recently on a Christmas advert? Kelly Marie's?

[snakepit]

The key to all this the airplay , or lack of it by the BBC until a national UK station, Radio 1, was launched in 1967. There was no 'pop' music channel.
Motown was not that popular in the wide sense of the word...the 1965 ghost tour proved that the VAST majority of UK pop fans just didn't get to hear/know a lot of black music.


History is skewed by comments of dedicated fans on forums like this. But we are insignicant in global pop terms. By 1966 soul music was getting popular, in the main by exposure on pirate radio and specialist clubs. Prior to this, the BBC playlists were a mixture of UK beat groups, US big hits and a range of records from Beatles to the Singing Nun...Black music was largely ignored.
The formation of a dedicated pop music channel...Radio 1, and the fact the first influential breakfast time DJ , Tony Blackburn was a big Motown fan, led to more UK pop buyers 'discovering' soul /Motown music.
By 1969 Motown was popular..leading to reissues of earlier tracks becoming hits...e.g. Get Ready, This old heart of mine, Dancing in the street, I can't help myself...and more, all records that were relatively ignored, overlooked etc by the average POP listener/buyer.

[luke]

As I said before In some UK circles it was considered unsophisticated and overblown and schmaltzy.

[snakepit]

The key to all this the airplay , or lack of it by the BBC until a national UK station, Radio 1, was launched in 1967. There was no 'pop' music channel.
Motown was not that popular in the wide sense of the word...the 1965 ghost tour proved that the VAST majority of UK pop fans just didn't get to hear/know a lot of black music.


History is skewed by comments of dedicated fans on forums like this. But we are insignicant in global pop terms. By 1966 soul music was getting popular, in the main by exposure on pirate radio and specialist clubs. Prior to this, the BBC playlists were a mixture of UK beat groups, US big hits and a range of records from Beatles to the Singing Nun...Black music was largely ignored.
The formation of a dedicated pop music channel...Radio 1, and the fact the first influential breakfast time DJ , Tony Blackburn was a big Motown fan, led to more UK pop buyers 'discovering' soul /Motown music.
By 1969 Motown was popular..leading to reissues of earlier tracks becoming hits...e.g. Get Ready, This old heart of mine, Dancing in the street, I can't help myself...and more, all records that were relatively ignored, overlooked etc by the average POP listener/buyer.

BTW I am no fan of the BBC or Radio 1
I agree with Roger that the demise of the Pirates was a bad move for Soul music.

[snakepit]

I think another reason Motown struggled in the UK circa 1965 in chart/pop terms was explained in the excellent book published recently..Hitsville..birth of Tamla Motown.
The label had been seen as a bit of a speciality upon launch...the UK music press in general were ignorant of the music. As late as 64/65 The Miracles and Temptations were referred to ad GIRL groups in some papers!
After the launch of TM , and the subsequent failure of the tour, Tamla Motown , in general pop terms, was perhaps seen as a dirty word.
No doubt some DJs/reviewers /promoters didn't want to be associated with a flop...and IHAS would fit into that time line.
Yes there were dedicated and keen followers but even the TM appreciation society only had about 250 members.
The pop market was interested in artists like Elvis, Cliff Richard, Seekers, Matt Munro, etc and many UK groups. I should imagine I would be a decent example of a young pop music fan....only vaguely interested in the Pirates....and that the music played on the BBC in 1965 reflected those artists.

[Bluebrock]

The key to all this the airplay , or lack of it by the BBC until a national UK station, Radio 1, was launched in 1967. There was no 'pop' music channel.
Motown was not that popular in the wide sense of the word...the 1965 ghost tour proved that the VAST majority of UK pop fans just didn't get to hear/know a lot of black music.


History is skewed by comments of dedicated fans on forums like this. But we are insignicant in global pop terms. By 1966 soul music was getting popular, in the main by exposure on pirate radio and specialist clubs. Prior to this, the BBC playlists were a mixture of UK beat groups, US big hits and a range of records from Beatles to the Singing Nun...Black music was largely ignored.
The formation of a dedicated pop music channel...Radio 1, and the fact the first influential breakfast time DJ , Tony Blackburn was a big Motown fan, led to more UK pop buyers 'discovering' soul /Motown music.
By 1969 Motown was popular..leading to reissues of earlier tracks becoming hits...e.g. Get Ready, This old heart of mine, Dancing in the street, I can't help myself...and more, all records that were relatively ignored, overlooked etc by the average POP listener/buyer.

That was pretty much what i said earlier snakepit, but Roger shot me down in flames. Good post.I was never a big fan of radio 1 but it certainly helped to alert the UK listening public to the Motown sound. Older friends and relatives have told me they were only casually interested in Motown until they began to hear the great tunes on a regular basis on radio 1.

[snakepit]

I think Roger was just making the point that the BBC Radio 1 wasn't the champion of soul music that some might think.
Personally I don't think I ever listened to any Pirate station, occasionally I tuned into Radio Luxembourg. No doubt a dedicated band of Motown and Soul fans followed the music on Pirates, but they would be the exception to the rule compared with the majority of pop buying youth of the day.
I had never heard of The Miracles, Temptations, and many other 'famous' soul groups until late 1967. When I discovered Motown, it was with great difficulty that I heard ,pre Radio 1, Motown .
Tony Blackburn came along playing tracks that would never have been selected prior to his show.

[Sotosound]

I think Roger was just making the point that the BBC Radio 1 wasn't the champion of soul music that some might think.
Personally I don't think I ever listened to any Pirate station, occasionally I tuned into Radio Luxembourg. No doubt a dedicated band of Motown and Soul fans followed the music on Pirates, but they would be the exception to the rule compared with the majority of pop buying youth of the day.
I had never heard of The Miracles, Temptations, and many other 'famous' soul groups until late 1967. When I discovered Motown, it was with great difficulty that I heard ,pre Radio 1, Motown .
Tony Blackburn came along playing tracks that would never have been selected prior to his show.

Soul was big on pirate radio and pirate radio itself was so big that the government decided to legislate against it. They wouldn't have done that if pirate radio wasn't having an influence.

I know, for instance, that tracks such as "What Becomes Of The Brokenhearted" received saturation play on Radio London because I heard it played repeatedly myself. Ditto "You Keep Me Hanging On" by The Supremes.

Johnnie Walker on Radio Caroline South used to play "Warm And Tender Love" by Percy Sledge every evening to couples parked up on the Frinton coast, and Rick Dane, also on Radio Caroline South, use the instrumental version of "In The Midnight Hour" by Little Mac And The Boss Sounds as his theme tune.

Also, Mike Raven didn't get invited to write the sleeve notes for British Motown Chartbusters by chance, and Tony Blackburn's career and love for Motown and soul pre-dated Radio 1.

In short, if you didn't get to listen to pirate radio then you missed something wonderful.

[snakepit]

agree...that's why those DJs were snapped up by Radio 1

[Sotosound]

I was 11 when I discovered pirate radio and I was nearly 13 when it was outlawed.

I had a friend up the road who introduced me to the wonders of radio and it was great fun to see what stations I could receive in Southgate in North London on my own Stella portable radio.

Radio London, Radio Caroline South, Radio 390, Radio England and Radio City all came in loud and clear.

Radio Scarborough, Radio 270 and Radio Caroline North were a bit of a stretch, however.

Then there was the Dutch station Radio Veronica which, in 1968, was best received by placing my radio next to a place in the first floor wall where a lot of mains wiring was dropped down behind the plaster.

And the music was fabulous. Non-stop pop and soul. No dodgy BBC covers of pop records by Peter Jay and The Jaybirds, and no merging with Radio 2 to save needle time.

[144man]

Hmm, interesting. Most Motown songs that hit #1 in the US also got a good chart position in the UK. However, this one and "Back In My Arms Again" [[#40) barely scraped the Top 40. I don't know why but it sure is outrageous! Lol

ALSO - and this really is outrageous - the original release of "My Girl" in 1964 only managed a #43 placement - I mean, what's all that about!!??

That's because Otis Redding's version of "My Girl" got all the airplay.

[144man]

In swinging England, symphonies and songs about them were the wrong side of the generation gap!

[snakepit]

sounds great
sadly I missed out.....no influential siblings or friends to lead and guide me.

[TomatoTom123]

That's because Otis Redding's version of "My Girl" got all the airplay.

Wow
I mean, I love a bit of Otis, but, c'mon, this is The Temptations we're talking about here!! Lol

Of course some 27 years later everybody came to their senses and sent a reissue of The Tempts' version to #2 on the UK Charts, so it all worked out alright in the end. Still... should have got to #1 though!

[Sotosound]

I actually prefer the Isley Brothers' version of "I Hear A Symphony", although it's probably not as commercial. They also handle the key changes better.

I also have to ask whether or not the Supremes version of IHAS would have made US number 1 if it hadn't been preceded by such a string of hits.

[[IMHO I don't feel that it's as strong as, say, "Baby Love", which actually did get to number 1 in the UK.)

[snakepit]

To put the original question of this thread in context, I thought I'd look a one week, purely at random, from 1965 UK top 20.

November 1965 , some artists in the top 20

Ken Dodd
Matt Munro
Andy Williams
Every Bros
Seekers
Manfred Mann
Hedgehoppets Anonymous
Fortunes
Bob Dylan
Animals
Barry McGuire
The Who
McCoys


Not much chance for Motown eh?
This is the kind of playlist on BBC then...

[roger]

That's because Otis Redding's version of "My Girl" got all the airplay.

But Otis's version of "My Girl" wasn't released until November 1965 144man ... some eight months after The Temptations version made its brief UK chart appearance. I think that what made Otis's version the hit it became was that it was less subtle than The Tempts version .. in 1964/5/6 the Motown records that made the UK charts were usually the harder-hitting HDH productions and the more sophisticated productions such as "My Girl" [[or indeed "I Hear A Symphony") struggled.

Anyway I'm glad that Sotosound has mentioned "Needle Time" as this is something that The BBC never seems to mention whenever it slaps itself on the back and congratulates itself for the launch of Radio One in September 1967. For those unfamiliar with the term it is explained quite neatly on Wikipedia [[where else) here ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Needle_time

Basically The BBC was restricted in the amount of time it could use to play music off commercially available discs and if it wanted to play music all day it had to use musicians to create "live" music [[hence all those artist xxx recorded "live at The BBC" tapes).

An American-style "Top 40" station [[which is what London, Caroline etc. basically were) would be typically playing music off records for 45 minutes in an hour, so to have a proper "Pop" format for a station that was on-air for 20 hours a day you would need to have available needle-time of 15 hours a day. When Radio One was launched needle time was about four hours a day and therefore they needed to pad out the schedules with "live" versions [[often of The BBC Orchestra plays the latest hits variety) or with talk or by linking up with Radio Two for basically the same thing. Initially the only show on Radio One that sounded to me like "Pop" radio as it had sounded on London or Caroline was Tony Blackburn's breakfast show [[all two hours of it) ... otherwise it was dull, dull, dull. Things gradually got better by 1969 as more needle-time was granted and The BBC started to exploit loopholes in the rules but it wasn't until around 1972 that Radio One really became an "all day music" station.

In 1965/6 when "I Hear A Symphony" was on the airwaves I lived in Leicester [[right in the centre of England) and most of the people I was at school with listened to The Pirates, I usually listed to London or Caroline South but I would also listen to 270 [[from off the Yorkshire Coast), Caroline North [[from The Irish Sea), Radio City [[though the signal was a bit iffy) and 390 [[which had the best reception of them all but was generally an MOR station and so not of much interest). The BBC was good for comedy shows and the chart rundown on Sunday afternoons but generally it was a non-starter for breaking new "Pop" records.

Roger

[snakepit]

Excellent post from Roger...I know he knows his onions on this stuff.

[Sotosound]

In swinging England, symphonies and songs about them were the wrong side of the generation gap!

Perhaps. However we loved concertos and put "A Lover's Concerto" by The Toys in the top 5 in 1965.

[roger]

To put the original question of this thread in context, I thought I'd look a one week, purely at random, from 1965 UK top 20.

November 1965 , some artists in the top 20

Ken Dodd
Matt Munro
Andy Williams
Every Bros
Seekers
Manfred Mann
Hedgehoppets Anonymous
Fortunes
Bob Dylan
Animals
Barry McGuire
The Who
McCoys


Not much chance for Motown eh?
This is the kind of playlist on BBC then...

Well The BBC only had three domestic stations back then Mr Snakepit ... "The Light Programme" [[which became Radio Two in 1967), "The Home Service" [[which became Radio Four in 1967) and "The Third Programme" [[which became Radio Three in 1967).

Before The Pirates started in 1964 "The Third Programme" was pretty much the same as Radio Three is nowadays ... Classical Music with "Live" Concerts, Operas etc. and a smattering of avant-garde music ... "The Home Service" was pretty much the same as Radio Four is nowadays ... News, Current Affairs, Documentaries, Plays, Comedy Shows, Desert Island Discs, The Archers etc. ... "The Light Programme" was for "Light Entertainment" ... variety shows, popular music and the more low-brow comedy shows.

"The Light Programme" didn't have a playlist, as such, but a typical daytime music show in 1961/2/3 was where you might expect to hear American artists like Frank Sinatra, Rosemary Clooney, Nat King Cole, Peggy Lee, Ella Fitzgerald etc., music from the big musicals of the past decade .... "Oklahoma", "West Side Story", "South Pacific", "Calamity Jane" etc. etc. plus a smattering of the big "Pop" hits of the day [[Cliff Richard, Elvis Presley, Frank Ifield, The Beatles etc.) plus novelty tunes which also included some of those Coasters records ... I might not have thought much of all the the yakety-yak on The BBC but I always enjoyed hearing "Yakety-Yak"

Basically "The Light Programme" would appeal to those over 25 rather than those under 20. There were two "Light Programme" shows on at the weekend where "Pop" was played a lot ... The Top 20 rundown on Sunday Afternoons [[which tellingly was followed by "Sing Something Simple" where a male vocal group would sing a mixture of old music-hall style favourites) and "Saturday Club" on Saturday lunchtime where some of the current "Pop" artists would perform "Live" and a selection of new/recent 45s would also get spun. In retrospect "Saturday Club" would have been the template for much of what went out on Radio One in its first year or two of broadcasting. As the British Beat-Boom gained momentum in 1963 The BBC seemed to increase the amount of "Pop" they played and in the summer of 1963 The Beatles had their own regular show where they would play "Live".

In 1962/3/4 the main means of promoting "pop" music in the UK was via Radio Luxembourg which broadcast in the evening, though reception was none too good over much of the country and the station often faded out. Apart from that there were some TV shows, such as "Juke Box Jury" on BBC and "Thank your Lucky Stars" on ITV . English language "Pop" music was also played a lot on some foreign language Continental stations, notably Hilversum in Holland and Brussels [[wherever that may be ) and I would often listen to them in the early evenings before Luxembourg came on air to get my fix of Pop. The Dutch Pirate Veronica would also have been broadcasting at that time, though I don't recall listening to it prior to The British Pirates going on air. Manx Radio, from The Isle of Man, and Eireann from Dublin used to play a lot of recorded music and occasionally I would hear something of interest [[we had quite a powerful radio). There was also American Forces Radio which could be picked up in the evening, but I didn't really listen to them until the 1970s.

Of your list of artists that were big in November 1965 the Light Programme would be more likely to play Ken Dodd, Matt Munro, Andy Williams or The Seekers as they appealed more to their main demographic [[over 25s), though with the launch of Radio 390 even those were starting to abandon The BBC. London and Caroline were more likely to be playing The Who, Hedgehoppers Anonymous, Barry Maguire, The McCoys, The Fortunes etc., though they would also play the likes of Ken Dodd or Andy Williams if their records proved popular enough. With The Pirates everything could be played off record as they weren't subject to needle time restrictions and it was straight out of one record into the next [[with maybe a commercial or jingle to separate the two), with the BBC there seemed to be four or five minutes talk between each piece of music.

Roger

[Sotosound]

Well The BBC only had three domestic stations back then Mr Snakepit ... "The Light Programme" [[which became Radio Two in 1967), "The Home Service" [[which became Radio Four in 1967) and "The Third Programme" [[which became Radio Three in 1967).

Before The Pirates started in 1964 "The Third Programme" was pretty much the same as Radio Three is nowadays ... Classical Music with "Live" Concerts, Operas etc. and a smattering of avant-garde music ... "The Home Service" was pretty much the same as Radio Four is nowadays ... News, Current Affairs, Documentaries, Plays, Comedy Shows, Desert Island Discs, The Archers etc. ... "The Light Programme" was for "Light Entertainment" ... variety shows, popular music and the more low-brow comedy shows.

"The Light Programme" didn't have a playlist, as such, but a typical daytime music show in 1961/2/3 was where you might expect to hear American artists like Frank Sinatra, Rosemary Clooney, Nat King Cole, Peggy Lee, Ella Fitzgerald etc., music from the big musicals of the past decade .... "Oklahoma", "West Side Story", "South Pacific", "Calamity Jane" etc. etc. plus a smattering of the big "Pop" hits of the day [[Cliff Richard, Elvis Presley, Frank Ifield, The Beatles etc.) plus novelty tunes which also included some of those Coasters records ... I might not have thought much of all the the yakety-yak on The BBC but I always enjoyed hearing "Yakety-Yak"

Basically "The Light Programme" would appeal to those over 25 rather than those under 20. There were two "Light Programme" shows on at the weekend where "Pop" was played a lot ... The Top 20 rundown on Sunday Afternoons [[which tellingly was followed by "Sing Something Simple" where a male vocal group would sing a mixture of old music-hall style favourites) and "Saturday Club" on Saturday lunchtime where some of the current "Pop" artists would perform "Live" and a selection of new/recent 45s would also get spun. In retrospect "Saturday Club" would have been the template for much of what went out on Radio One in its first year or two of broadcasting. As the British Beat-Boom gained momentum in 1963 The BBC seemed to increase the amount of "Pop" they played and in the summer of 1963 The Beatles had their own regular show where they would play "Live".

In 1962/3/4 the main means of promoting "pop" music in the UK was via Radio Luxembourg which broadcast in the evening, though reception was none too good over much of the country and the station often faded out. Apart from that there were some TV shows, such as "Juke Box Jury" on BBC and "Thank your Lucky Stars" on ITV . English language "Pop" music was also played a lot on some foreign language Continental stations, notably Hilversum in Holland and Brussels [[wherever that may be ) and I would often listen to them in the early evenings before Luxembourg came on air to get my fix of Pop. The Dutch Pirate Veronica would also have been broadcasting at that time, though I don't recall listening to it prior to The British Pirates going on air. Manx Radio, from The Isle of Man, and Eireann from Dublin used to play a lot of recorded music and occasionally I would hear something of interest [[we had quite a powerful radio). There was also American Forces Radio which could be picked up in the evening, but I didn't really listen to them until the 1970s.

Of your list of artists that were big in November 1965 the Light Programme would be more likely to play Ken Dodd, Matt Munro, Andy Williams or The Seekers as they appealed more to their main demographic [[over 25s), though with the launch of Radio 390 even those were starting to abandon The BBC. London and Caroline were more likely to be playing The Who, Hedgehoppers Anonymous, Barry Maguire, The McCoys, The Fortunes etc., though they would also play the likes of Ken Dodd or Andy Williams if their records proved popular enough. With The Pirates everything could be played off record as they weren't subject to needle time restrictions and it was straight out of one record into the next [[with maybe a commercial or jingle to separate the two), with the BBC there seemed to be four or five minutes talk between each piece of music.

Roger

It's all true.

Apart from when the pirates were in full force we pop and soul music lovers were kept barely alive.

[snakepit]

Which might explain to our USA friends how difficult it was to hear soul music/Motown here in the UK on mainstream radio, which the majority of youngsters would listen to.
It's no wonder Motown didn't sell well 63-65, apart from the odd exception.
Also, the main pop music papers like Disc, NME etc would have very little coverage of black music.....perhaps a special column hid away somewhere.
There was no real National exposure.....and artists like Marvin Gaye and Temptations were virtually unknown to the vast majority of the UK pop buyers .
Years ago, in my circle of friends interested in NS, we all knew Major Lance, Gene Chandler etc...they seemed big names, very significant....these days I'd find it very hard to find anybody who knew those names. But I wouldn't have difficulty in finding people of my generation who remember The Batchelors, Matt Munro, Seekers and any number of 60s pop bands.
If we get away from our cocooned world of soul music enthusiasts, you'd find an alarming ignorance of soul/Motown/black music in the UK.

[snakepit]

Again , for the purpose of the original question of this thread, i.e. why was IHAS not a UK hit, on the 1965 tour, with a bill made up of DRATS, Martha & Vandellas, Miracles, Stevie Wonder, Earl Van Dyke sextet, it is said that one of the venues in a major UK city had more people on the stage than in the audience.

[snakepit]

Sorry for butting in again, but I find this topic very interesting, particularly the way USA members view the UK scene.

Some years ago , my local pub had a quiz, with a picture round where you had the guess the celebrities.
A picture of DRATS..DR, FB,MW was included. All three were required for a point score.
In a crowd of about 100 [[average age 50 or so) I was the only person with the right answer. No surprise there, but most got DR, naturally.
Amongst the other Supremes names offered up were...Tammi Terrell, Kim Weston [[not bad), Aretha Franklin, Gladys Knight, Tina Turner.....or none at all in many cases. Yet many of these people would, if asked, say "I like Motown".

[roger]

Which might explain to our USA friends how difficult it was to hear soul music/Motown here in the UK on mainstream radio, which the majority of youngsters would listen to.
It's no wonder Motown didn't sell well 63-65, apart from the odd exception.
Also, the main pop music papers like Disc, NME etc would have very little coverage of black music.....perhaps a special column hid away somewhere.
There was no real National exposure.....and artists like Marvin Gaye and Temptations were virtually unknown to the vast majority of the UK pop buyers .
Years ago, in my circle of friends interested in NS, we all knew Major Lance, Gene Chandler etc...they seemed big names, very significant....these days I'd find it very hard to find anybody who knew those names. But I wouldn't have difficulty in finding people of my generation who remember The Batchelors, Matt Munro, Seekers and any number of 60s pop bands.
If we get away from our cocooned world of soul music enthusiasts, you'd find an alarming ignorance of soul/Motown/black music in the UK.

I'm not sure why you think that "the majority of youngsters" would be listening to The BBC in 1965 Mr Snakepit, that certainly wasn't the case where I lived where most listened to The Pirates, I would have thought that with Caroline North moored off Ramsey it would have been loud and clear all over Lancashire and would have picked up a large audience. Maybe the kids in Manchester had parents who ruled the radio and insisted on listening to The Northern Dance Orchestra playing "Hello Dolly" rather than The Rolling Stones singing "Satisfaction", that certainly wasn't the case in The Midlands and just about ALL of my school-pals listened to The Pirates [[one of them wasn't allowed to listen on Sundays as his parents were keen Congregationalists and they thought that Pop music wasn't very "Christian" ).

We had a large Bush Radio [[or "wireless" as it was sometimes called) and unless there was something compelling to listen to on The BBC [["The Navy Lark", "The Top 20", "I'm Sorry I'll Read That Again") it would normally be tuned into Caroline South [[or London if my sister got there first). Woe betide those stations if they slipped a Matt Munroe or Ken Dodd song into the mix as the radio would be instantly be retuned with a quick search of the dial to see what was being played elsewhere!!

The Pirates claimed that they had in excess of 20 Million regular listeners and the advertisers certainly believed them as the airwaves were littered with commercials for Batchelors Peas, Smiths Crisps etc. etc. etc. etc. Radio London and 390 made millions for their respective owners, Caroline and City were run more as vanity projects and weren't quite so business-like, 270 was a smaller operation but I can't imagine it ran at a loss. There were some short-lived Pirates, Radio Britain, Swinging Radio England and a few others which didn't really ever get off the ground.

We also had a transistor radio which I think my mother bought so she could listen to the radio when she was in the kitchen, though it was seldom used otherwise as the batteries were expensive. However I do remember having it on in my bedroom when I was bedridden with measles or chickenpox in late 1965 and I still can't listen to "Rescue Me" without remembering that time. Needless to say the radio wasn't tuned to The BBC.

You are right about The Batchelors, Matt Munro, Val Doonican etc. etc. etc. having been airbrushed from history, along with 390 which played all that stuff incessantly. A few years back there was a thread on here about the UK charts in 1965/6 and how much MOR there was ... I mentioned 390 and most people here had never heard of it. Certainly none of those artists got a look in on that "Boat That Rocked" movie.

One of The Pirates [[Caroline South I think) used to run down The US Hot 100 at the weekend and I distinctly remember hearing a record by Little Anthony & The Imperials being played [[probably "Hurt So Bad") thinking it was great and bound to become a big British hit and then wondering what on earth happened to it some months later. When it came to US acts the records normally came out here some two or three months later of course.

As to your comment about Marvin Gaye it is so true ... Dave Godin related a tale in "Blues & Soul" once about when he visited the UK in 1964/5 and someone asked for his autograph, Mr Gaye obliged, and the "fan" thanked him by saying that he would keep it "just in case he ever became famous"!! However "Ain't That Peculiar" did get a lot of Pirate airplay and appeared
on their charts even though it never made the nationwide listings. There were some other Soul records that were big on the Pirate charts without ever making the nationals, "Baby Do The Philly Dog" made The Radio London Top 10 and "Doctor Love" by Bobby Sheen made their Top 20 as examples.... maybe this didn't translate into sales due to distribution issues?

Roger

[snakepit]

Hi Roger
all valid points, I guess a person' s personal experience to the Pirates were just that.....personal to them.
I now wonder why , with that airplay and interest sans BBC, these records never made the charts?

Only a few TMGs sold enough to get into the top 40.
And just look at the issues in 1965..........

anyway, must dash....football in pub later

Happy New year to you
hope you can listen to Soulful Shack....not up to Pirate standards though

[Bokiluis]

Did the BBC ever make the ultimate leap and hire a black dj who was supportive of soul music or have a dedicated hour to Soul Music??,

[Bokiluis]

Where did Shirley Bassey or Cleo Laine fall? In the states Shirley is considered Adult Contemporary and Cleo a jazz artist. Though they have black heritage, they aren't perceived that way.
Shirley's triumphant "Live at Carnegie Hall" I think charted Top 20 on the Soul Charts, but, I'm certain it was from black airplay.
Lisa Stansfield is one of the most successful white artists on the Black Chart with 3/#1 singles. And 1 Top10/Top 20, but, not embraced the way Teena Marie.

[mysterysinger]

By the way, Matt's surname is Monro [[not Munro or Munroe). Mind you even that is not his real name. Matt Monro did some recording at Mowest in the USA.

Also, whilst Batchelor's is correct for peas, the singing group is The Bachelors. As in unmarried men.

[Bluebrock]

Where did Shirley Bassey or Cleo Laine fall? In the states Shirley is considered Adult Contemporary and Cleo a jazz artist. Though they have black heritage, they aren't perceived that way.
Shirley's triumphant "Live at Carnegie Hall" I think charted Top 20 on the Soul Charts, but, I'm certain it was from black airplay.
Lisa Stansfield is one of the most successful white artists on the Black Chart with 3/#1 singles. And 1 Top10/Top 20, but, not embraced the way Teena Marie.

Shirley was regarded as an easy listening artist as opposed to a soul/r&b artist, whilst Cleo "[[a good friend of mine) was always regarded as a jazz singer. As regards Lisa she did get some acclaim from the soul crowd but was never embraced in the way Lady T was perhaps because she was very visible and easily accessible due to regular exposure on tv and national radio.

[roger]

Did the BBC ever make the ultimate leap and hire a black dj who was supportive of soul music or have a dedicated hour to Soul Music??,

Certainly not in 1965 .. however when Radio One was launched in late 1967 there was an hour long "review" program hosted by Mike Raven that initially went out on a Sunday evening and spun that week's "R&B" releases. The BBC was able to play a record once [[if purely for "review" purposes) without it being considered as contributing to "needle time" so each record would have Mike commenting on it and with a lot of them it would be their one and only play on The BBC.

Mike Raven was really more a fan of traditional "Blues" than contemporary material, but he did appreciate a lot of Soul and the first 20 or 30 minutes of the programme would have that week's releases by the likes of The Temptations, Wilson Pickett, Sam & Dave, The Impressions etc. before we were treated to material that sounded like it belonged in the 1940s or 50s.

Mike Raven hosted the show until 1971/2 when The BBC concluded he was getting out of touch with modern material [[I seem to recall he described a new O'Jays release as "not sounding like R&B to me") and The BBC handed the show over to David Simmons for the next two or three years.

Mike Raven was an interesting character [[to say the least) as can be seen by the biography on Wikipedia where he is described as "a British radio disc jockey, actor, sculptor, sheep farmer, writer, TV presenter and producer, ballet dancer, flamenco guitarist and photographer"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Raven

With David Simmons the show became more contemporary, the "Soul" content increased and the "Blues" content went down. Also two or three US import singles would be played in a feature where he hooked up with a radio DJ in Los Angeles or Detroit or Miami etc. and we were informed what was happening there Soul-wise.

There is an interesting feature about David Simmons here ...
http://www.radiorewind.co.uk/radio1/...mmons_page.htm

That was pretty much the way things continued with The BBC on their national station Radio One until the mid 1980s, with typically an hour long show each week being dedicated to Soul/Funk/Disco presented variously by the likes of Robbie Vincent [[a huge Jazz/Funk/Soul fan who had pushed the music on a show he had been given on local radio in London) or Peter Powell [[more of a "radio personality" who probably would have been just as happy playing Queen or The Police).

From around 1990 onwards the BBC seem to have been trying to make up for their earlier errors as they now have a number of programmes dedicated to various forms of black music, some featuring black presenters.

As to Cleo Laine, she tends to be regarded here as a mainstream "Jazz" singer who I remember hearing occasionally on The BBC in the 1960s, Shirley Bassey [[or Burley Chassis as she was termed once during an appearance on The Morecombe & Wise TV show ) is thought of as a major MOR star ... Shirley had a number of big UK hits in the early 1960s, including two number ones, and would have been played a lot on The Light Programme at the time, but she was one of those artists that sounded outdated by 1964. Interestingly she revived her British career in 1970 with a version of The Beatles "Something" that got to #4 and after that became thought of as a classic artist approaching Sinatra proportions.

Roger

[Bokiluis]

Quite informative, thank you. In America, several black Djs like Frankie Crocker, Sunny Joe White, etc gain more notoriety with a mixed audience in the 70s from Rhythm Crossover radio stations....along with famous club djs like Frankie Kunckles.
I naively thought BBC 1 had diverse programming from classical, to Brit pop and soul as early as the 1960s. I was unaware of the Jim Crow-ish "needle time" rule. That differs from Canada's rule that a certain percentage of airtime must be devoted to Canadian born artists.
Outside of a few major cities, La Bassey was primarily known for her James Bond affiliation from alternative dance, The Propellerheads in the 90s to Kanye West's sampling of "Goldfinger". I'd venture to say the average black music lover didn't know or care of Shirley's heritage. Not really in a negative way but because her music through "Never, Never, Never" in the early 70s, was again considered Adult Contemporary. Ms. Laine has jazz credibility [[and her husband) in America particularly her unique scatting.
Pop British phenomenon, Take That nor their breakout Robbie Williams can announce a European stadium tour and sellout in minutes [[when I tell people that commercially Take That is a Beatles-like phenomena, they think its hyperbole), rock band Oasis another Brit phenomenon is primarily known for "What's the Story" in America yet far more in the U.K. and Europe, while British Soul acts like Loose Ends, Shara Nelson, Ms. Dynamite [[I'm drawing a blank on more contemporary British acts) have either a cult following or only known for 1 or 2 hits in America.
Bringing the conversation back to a bit of its origins. I like Mark Ronson's sampling of "You Keep Me Hanging On" on "Stop Me"? Or Amy Winehouse "Ain't No Mountain High Enough" on is it "You Know I'm No Good".

[sansradio]

Amy's ANMHE sample is actually on "Tears Dry on Their Own," Bokiluis.