HDH split from Motown and the "what if"

[sup_fan]

I think we all agree that, while at Motown, HDH created some of the most engaging and innovation music of the 60s, if not of American popular music overall. Their work at Motown was amazing and you can so clearly see their progression and development through various periods. I realize i'm sort of compacting their work into a few categories of my own definition but you get the picture.

Early Work
Martha and the Vandellas - amazing tracks starting with Come Get and then exploding with Heatwave, Quicksand and the others

Major Breakthrough
Sups first hits with Where Did Our Love Go, Baby Love and Come See About Me

Sups Phase 2
Stop In the Name of Love, Back in My Arms, plus early hits with the 4 Tops

Classic Motown Sound
You Can't Hurry Love, Heaven Must Have Sent You, I Can't Help Myself

Maturation and experimenting into new areas
You Keep My Hangin' On, Reach Out

Continue evolution
Bernadette, Reflections

Then HDH leaves in early 68. So my question are:

1. is the work HDH did at Invictus an evolution from what they were doing at motown? where they breaking new ground and pushing boundaries? or were they just trying to establish themselves?

2. had they not left motown, i wonder what they might have done next? especially given where they'd taken the Tops and Sups. had they run their course with those groups and something new was needed anyway?

[marv2]

I think their productions at Invictus was a progression from what they were doing at Motown. They were evolving at their own label.

[luke]

I sure can hear Levi and the Tops singing Give me just a little more time!

[bradsupremes]

I think when they started Invictus HDH were trying to reestablish themselves. Their flow was stopped when they left the studios at Motown. Songs like "Band Of Gold" and "Give Me Just A Little More Time" fit with the time but they weren't truly evolutionary like their last year at Motown. I think it was HDH getting back into the groove. Songs like "Reflections," "Forever Came Today," and "I'm In A Different World" that were written and recorded during their last year at Motown were ahead of their time. Those songs were far more sophisticated in lyrics, chord progressions, style, and arrangements. It's a clear direction of where HDH were heading and where they would have taken the Supremes and Four Tops. The one question remains is how successful the sophiscated style would have been for the groups. "I'm In A Different World" and "Forever Came Today" were poor charting singles despite them being incredible songs. I don't know if HDH having just left Motown may have caused the labels to not give the singles the extra push. Almost as a way of Motown "punishing" HDH. Starting up Invictus, HDH went back to what made them successful but adapted to the times.

[marv2]

I sure can hear Levi and the Tops singing Give me just a little more time!

Ironic that you say that because at the time, many were commenting that General Johnson sounded like an imitation "Levi Stubbs", but there was no one that could compare to Levi and his ability.

[marv2]

I think when they started Invictus HDH were trying to reestablish themselves. Their flow was stopped when they left the studios at Motown. Songs like "Band Of Gold" and "Give Me Just A Little More Time" fit with the time but they weren't truly evolutionary like their last year at Motown. I think it was HDH getting back into the groove. Songs like "Reflections," "Forever Came Today," and "I'm In A Different World" that were written and recorded during their last year at Motown were ahead of their time. Those songs were far more sophisticated in lyrics, chord progressions, style, and arrangements. It's a clear direction of where HDH were heading and where they would have taken the Supremes and Four Tops. The one question remains is how successful the sophiscated style would have been for the groups. "I'm In A Different World" and "Forever Came Today" were poor charting singles despite them being incredible songs. I don't know if HDH having just left Motown may have caused the labels to not give the singles the extra push. Almost as a way of Motown "punishing" HDH. Starting up Invictus, HDH went back to what made them successful but adapted to the times.

I would not put it past Motown not to promote those singles for the reasons you mentioned.

[sup_fan]

i think Forever, and to a bit lesser degree Different World, suffered from being too complex. they're sophisticated tracks but perhaps better left as amazing lp tracks. not AM radio, 2:30 min songs. The chorus of songs like Bernadette and Reflection are still amazingly hum-able and catchy. Forever is hard to "whistle as you walk down the street."

perhaps the simple explanation is they were just not as commercial.

I'll admit i'm not nearly as familiar with their Invictus work. while at that label, did they become more of an lp organization? with more concepts to their albums, like Frank Wilson and Norman were doing?

I wonder if they'd stayed AND started to push for more cohesive lp concepts, what they could have done with the Sups and the Tops. Imagine what they might have done for an entire Reflections lp

[marv2]

i think Forever, and to a bit lesser degree Different World, suffered from being too complex. they're sophisticated tracks but perhaps better left as amazing lp tracks. not AM radio, 2:30 min songs. The chorus of songs like Bernadette and Reflection are still amazingly hum-able and catchy. Forever is hard to "whistle as you walk down the street."

perhaps the simple explanation is they were just not as commercial.

I'll admit i'm not nearly as familiar with their Invictus work. while at that label, did they become more of an lp organization? with more concepts to their albums, like Frank Wilson and Norman were doing?

I wonder if they'd stayed AND started to push for more cohesive lp concepts, what they could have done with the Sups and the Tops. Imagine what they might have done for an entire Reflections lp

I think there were still most interested in producing hit singles at Invictus.

[motony]

I heard that some of the last HDH songs that came out on Motown were not finished by HDH , and actually finished by other Motown producers and that may be why they didn't have that extra kick that an HDH production usually had and thus didn't chart as high. I actually always loved "Forever Came Today" By Diana & Supremes. I thought the much later version by the Jackson 5 was one of their best recorded performances.I forget who produced that.