Ed Sullivan Show ~ December 1970 The Supremes and The Four Tops Medley [[What If?)

[KRAIG]

After a recent discussion on here, and based on the recollection of Cindy Birdsong, WHAT IF this proposed joint appearance of both groups on The Ed Sullivan Show in December 1970 singing a medley of "Still Waters [[Love)/River Deep, Mountain High" happened?

Would sales for both songs increased? Would it have given both groups a much needed jolt?

How would it sound? Who would take lead? What costumes would they have worn? How would the medley have been arranged? I have an idea of how I would have done it and I'm currently experimenting with a mix that might capture how Johnnie Allen and Gil Askey would have done it.

I really wish this would have become a reality, but circumstances beyond our control prevented it from happening...only if...

[RossHolloway]

I've never fully understood the intent behind the Supremes and Four Tops joint venture. It seems like their albums were not heavily promoted and the groups did not appear to perform together. Would an appearance together on ES have made a difference? Perhaps, but I also think it did neither groups any favors with having so much product out at the same time, I would imagine all the singles and albums put out during such a short period of time cannibalized their sales - much like what happened during late 68-69 with the Supreme's and Temptation's sales.

[KRAIG]

The Supremes and Four Tops had quite a few joint ventures during this time period, namely an appearance at The Carter Barron Theater in Washington DC and on the UK Show Tops of The Pops singing "You've Got To Have Love In Your Heart" in 1971 [[Click link below for performance).


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wYjSH-JQVIw

[KRAIG]

My Vision of what the Medley may have looked like:

[Spoken: Walk with me/Take my hand]
[Intro of Still Waters [[Love)]
Levi Stubbs [[Lead), Mary Wilson & Cindy Birdsong [[Background)
Key: C Major

Ooooh, oooh oooh / Ooohh, oooh oooh
[[Still water) /Still water/

Ahhh, ahhh, ahh

Never you mind if I /Don't tell strangers passing by
If I don't brag / If I don't brag or boast
Click my glass and say a toast /About my love for you
How it runs so deep and true /And yet it's so
'Cause don't you know, ohh
Still waters run deep
Still waters run deep
Still waters run deep
Still waters run deep
Ooooh

[Segues into intro from “River Deep, Mountain High]
Jean Terrell [[Lead), Obie Benson, Duke Fakir, Lawrence Payton [[Background Vocals)
Key: G Major

When I was a little girl, I had a rag doll / Only doll I've ever owned
Now I love you just the way I loved that rag doll / Only now my love has grown
It gets stronger in every way / It gets deeper, let me say
It gets higher day by day / Do I love you my, oh, my?
As river deep, mountain high, yeah, yeah / If I lost you would I cry?
Oh, how I love you baby, baby, baby, baby!!!!!!

[Middle 8 of River Deep Mountain High/ Both groups merge together]

I love you baby, like a flower loves the spring
And I love you honey, oh, like a robin loves to sing
Oh, I love you babe, like a schoolboy loves his bike
And I love you honey, river deep, mountain high

Do I love you my, oh, my? / I said, as river deep, mountain high, yeah, yeah
If I lost you, would I cry / Oh, how I love you baby, baby, baby, baby!!!

[After 4 note extension, Intro to Still Waters [[Peace) Begins)]
Key : C Major

Whole Group:
Peace, Peace, Peace / Still Waters Run Deep
oow oow

Spoken by Levi Stubbs:

Oh what peace I find [[Still Waters Run Deep)
Here with your hand, / pressing close in mine
So peaceful and calm inside / Like the sea at the ebb tide
And without saying one single word / The very depths of your soul can be heard
[[Still Waters Run Deep 2x)

Spoken by Jean Terrell [[as everyone croons in the background):

P is for the privilege of loving and the privilege of being loved
E is for the ease it gives the soul and the mind
A is for the absence in your search to find yourself
C is the calm you feel if you like what you find
E is everlasting

LET THIS LOVE NEVER CEASE, PEACE, YOUR LOVE HAS BROUGHT ME PEACE…[[After 1 bar, blasting exit horn coda)

[Bluebrock]

I've never fully understood the intent behind the Supremes and Four Tops joint venture. It seems like their albums were not heavily promoted and the groups did not appear to perform together. Would an appearance together on ES have made a difference? Perhaps, but I also think it did neither groups any favors with having so much product out at the same time, I would imagine all the singles and albums put out during such a short period of time cannibalized their sales - much like what happened during late 68-69 with the Supreme's and Temptation's sales.

I have to agree with much of what you say. The Sups and Tops are two of my all time favourite groups but none of their albums really did it for me. Of course it was nice to hear Jean and Levi interacting , but the material was in many cases sub standard, and i agree with you that far too much material was released in such a short space of time. In the case of the Supremes especially there were several potential hits on their first three Jean led albums that were never given a chance to become hit singles due in some cases to them having inferior product out with the Tops. What was the point of "dynamite"? No singles were issued, it was not promoted so why the hell release it? When i spoke to Mary about this a few months ago she said she adored working with the Tops, and not just for professional reasons! but she also expressed frustration at Motown's indifference to the projects
i think an appearance on Ed Sullivan could have helped boost sales for both acts , and we can only speculate on why Ed blocked the proposal. I have a very good idea why. Anyone else care to pass comment?

[sup_fan]

this is actually the first I've ever heard of the Sups and Tops being considered for a joint Sullivan appearance. Was this really a concept Motown was taking to the Sullivan team? or just a fan concept?

I do think it would have helped record sales a little for RDMH. it was already a top 20 hit. possibly would have moved it to closer to a #10 ranking. The 4 Tops were not top draws for tv appearances, while the Sups still were in 70. So i'm not sure if this type of a duet concept would have been of a really high interest to producers

I do agree that more care and thought should have been given to timing of releases and content recorded. But remember that even as of 71, 72, Motown was still very focused on quantity of recordings and on singles. Marvin and Stevie were only just starting to force Motown into the album area. Groups like the Sups were forced to just crank out recordings and then they were cobbled together into lps. The philosophy was record a shitload of materials and we'll find 10 - 12 of the best to shove onto an album. In hindsight, this might have generated money at the time but was a detriment to the artists and group's longterm respectability and reputation.

Motown also seemed to have a habit of throwing tons of stuff at the wall and then seeing what sticks. with the new Sups and even Ross, they spent 70 and 71 doing all sorts of stuff. Sups recorded tons of different materials. Ross did first debut lp, Everything is Everything, Surrender, Diana tv special, etc. it's just that there was more follow up with the Ross efforts cuz Gordy was personally managing it.

[marv2]

Christmas Season 1970 as I remember it was "Motown" Christmas. There were so many offerings from the company on the market at the time, you really had to pick and choose. Coupled with "The Smokey Robinson Show" that aired on ABC on December 18, 1970 with the Supremes as guests, we were pretty much satisfied. They had the number one R&B single Christmas Day, they had appeared on This is Tom Jones the month before and on the Flip Wilson Show shortly after Christmas. I still think a joint appearance with my favorite group, the Four Tops on the Ed Sullivan Show would have just been icing on the cake! It would have been staged splendidly I am sure. The Tops backing the Supremes up on "Stoned Love" and the ladies backing them up on "Still Waters" before they all joined in for "River Deep, Mountain High". Would have been great, but I don't feel short changed [[especially that particular Christmas). We even had the Jackson Five's Christmas Album in stores that year.

[BayouMotownMan]

Any national appearance will help spur some sales, but I don't think it would have done that much for both groups.

Remember that in Dec 1970 Ed Sullivan was halfway through his 23d and final year as a television staple. Ratings plunged for Sullivan in that last year and he was cancelled just a few months later. The entire variety show format was failing.

I point out that just after this the Supremes did RDMH on the Pearl Bailey show, which had about the same amount of viewers as Sullivan at that point and it didn't stop the song from falling off the charts.

It was surprising that the single did as well as it did, about $700K in sales, while the lp from which it came did nothing. All of the duet lps suffered from lack of original material and some rather weak covers [[Stoned Soul Picnic). I'll wager that if Motown had waited a few months to release this lp and single, that both the Still Water and Stoned Love singles, both superior to the duet, would have been even bigger.

[KRAIG]

This discussion of the December 1970 appearance was discussed in the thread below:

http://soulfuldetroit.com/showthread...-TV-Appearance

this is actually the first I've ever heard of the Sups and Tops being considered for a joint Sullivan appearance. Was this really a concept Motown was taking to the Sullivan team? or just a fan concept?

I do think it would have helped record sales a little for RDMH. it was already a top 20 hit. possibly would have moved it to closer to a #10 ranking. The 4 Tops were not top draws for tv appearances, while the Sups still were in 70. So i'm not sure if this type of a duet concept would have been of a really high interest to producers

I do agree that more care and thought should have been given to timing of releases and content recorded. But remember that even as of 71, 72, Motown was still very focused on quantity of recordings and on singles. Marvin and Stevie were only just starting to force Motown into the album area. Groups like the Sups were forced to just crank out recordings and then they were cobbled together into lps. The philosophy was record a shitload of materials and we'll find 10 - 12 of the best to shove onto an album. In hindsight, this might have generated money at the time but was a detriment to the artists and group's longterm respectability and reputation.

Motown also seemed to have a habit of throwing tons of stuff at the wall and then seeing what sticks. with the new Sups and even Ross, they spent 70 and 71 doing all sorts of stuff. Sups recorded tons of different materials. Ross did first debut lp, Everything is Everything, Surrender, Diana tv special, etc. it's just that there was more follow up with the Ross efforts cuz Gordy was personally managing it.

[BayouMotownMan]

I guess Sullivan showed his appreciation to Gordy by debuting the new Supremes in Feb 1970, but clearly he didn't have the same enthusiasm for this group as he did for Ross.

The only tv appearance I remember Ross doing in 1970 was, oddly enough, Merv Griffin. One has to wonder if Gordy had a gambling debt to Griffin or something. LOL. It was a small potatoes show.

[TheMotownManiac]

One more thing or two I recall from Cindy is her disappointment in the duet sales because she had loved the royalties from the duets with The Tempts. Also, Mary was hoping and pushing to be featured more with The Tops because she felt so close to them. She said, and I quote verbatim, "That's where all that started." and then referenced Jean bristling at Mary's suggestions. Oh, I forgot another tidbit: Cindy loved Reach out & Touch, but Mary and Jean were nonplussed. She said they are were speculating on the big fanfare when diane's career launched and there was nothing and very little media interest. She said she felt sorry for Diane, Mary seemed pleased and Jean didn't like to talk about Diane. All that changed when Ain't No Mountain High Enough came out. Cindy loved it, Mary said nothing at all and jean thought it was too much talking and wouldn't hit. All three felt Nathan jones was their best single and best chance for a number one. If I think of more, I'll bring it.

[sup_fan]

so was Cindy implying that the conflicts between Jean and Mary originated around the time of the duets? that jean didn't really want to do this but mary did and also wanted to be doing leads with the Tops?

I almost like the duet Reach Out better than Diana's. i'm not a fan of the waltz and like the ending of the Duet version and going into 4 on 4

[Bluebrock]

One more thing or two I recall from Cindy is her disappointment in the duet sales because she had loved the royalties from the duets with The Tempts. Also, Mary was hoping and pushing to be featured more with The Tops because she felt so close to them. She said, and I quote verbatim, "That's where all that started." and then referenced Jean bristling at Mary's suggestions. Oh, I forgot another tidbit: Cindy loved Reach out & Touch, but Mary and Jean were nonplussed. She said they are were speculating on the big fanfare when diane's career launched and there was nothing and very little media interest. She said she felt sorry for Diane, Mary seemed pleased and Jean didn't like to talk about Diane. All that changed when Ain't No Mountain High Enough came out. Cindy loved it, Mary said nothing at all and jean thought it was too much talking and wouldn't hit. All three felt Nathan jones was their best single and best chance for a number one. If I think of more, I'll bring it.

Your version more or less concurs with what i was told. I have held back from saying too much because certain members get very irksome when Mary is portraid as being anything less than perfect. I have no desire to create yet more bad blood so i will merely say that other people around at the time agree with what you say here.

[sup_fan]

Blue - completely appreciate and respect your holding back, even though i'd be very interested in hearing the stories. not for sake of gossip or for cutting down one girl vs the other but for understanding and learning more of the history. i myself like to think of the girls as humans. they're prone to errors and bad judgement like anyone. they're not perfect but we love them just the same!

that said, can you guys share more about the girls' thoughts and feelings on their recordings? what did jean or cindy think of Right On? surprised a bit that they all though Nathan was their strongest recording. i love it but Stone is without a doubt the top, IMO.

[Bluebrock]

Blue - completely appreciate and respect your holding back, even though i'd be very interested in hearing the stories. not for sake of gossip or for cutting down one girl vs the other but for understanding and learning more of the history. i myself like to think of the girls as humans. they're prone to errors and bad judgement like anyone. they're not perfect but we love them just the same!

that said, can you guys share more about the girls' thoughts and feelings on their recordings? what did jean or cindy think of Right On? surprised a bit that they all though Nathan was their strongest recording. i love it but Stone is without a doubt the top, IMO.

. The stories i have do not show a couple of our Supreme ladies in a good light and that will go down like a lead balloon with certain members. I know a couple of members on here know what i am refering to and if they wish to spill the beans then that is their decision. but it won't come from me.
As regards RO i am told that all three ladies liked most of the material. Personally i felt this to the strongest Jean led album. I do not know Jean or Cindy personally but a friend of mine knows Cindy quite well and she had much to say about the relationship between Mary and Jean at this time, Let us just say the cracks were already too numerous to repair,

[daviddh]

I never understood why the Supremes were never back on Sullivan after UTLTTR in early 1970?? I think it may have helped them.
I do like Stoned Love and it's a classic but recently they play Up The Ladder on XM radio and I was surprised how well it held up. still sounded great.great harmony on that but I have to say my fav is Nathan jones...kinda rock but soulful at the same time. as far as I know they performed it only once. a few more appearances[[Sullivan) may have helped it.
Bluebrock, I know what you mean about talking about a supreme. this is not personal. I think we are talking about music and history here and I recently made what I thought what innocent[[honest) comment and wow!
I think MW has grown as a person and singer -performer. I have seen her a few times live,great stage presence and very warm and engaging. I do think ,it took her longer to establish herself as she was lost in her supreme image and she didn't know who she was as a singer. it took her longer. when I have heard her recent recordings over the years I think she has grown as a vocalist. I noticed big difference in her starting round 1975 when she started singing more leads. you can hear how she had grown in the three years she had worked with Scherrie and Susaye.
I did however make a statement that I blamed her for the demise of the group because she wanted total control, and looking back, as the last original member I can see her wanting and deserving it, but .... when you plans are working, it is time to look around and find out why. anyway. I enjoy everyone's memories and thoughts here

[daviddh]

does anyone know why Jean left for sure....Mary said she quit while Jean stated mary went and got another lady[[Scherrie)???