Could Martha & the Vandellas have bested the Supremes?

[mowest]

I've always thought that "Love Is Like An Itching In My Heart" should have been recorded and released as a single by Martha & The Vandellas rather than The Supremes. The song has the soul and grit of "Heat Wave," "Quicksand" and "Nowhere To Run." The Supremes' release, which I do love, made it to #9 on Billboard and Cashbox Pop. Do you think it would have been a bigger hit if Martha and her girls had done it?

[theboyfromxtown]

Interesting thought. However, I can hear the Velvelettes tearing up this song.

[Sharpmoves]

I'd love to hear a MR&TV cover of "itching". The problem with this sort of discussion is that it assumes that recordings are successful simply and solely on the basis of their artistic merits. But we know that there is much more to it than that. If the question is "if MR&TVs had been Berry Gordy's No 1 priority act, and they had had the input, attention, and company resources that went with that, including exclusive access to HDH, would they have bested the Supremes?" No one can really know, but the answer is probably "they may have". The Supremes were the most commercially successful female act of the 1960s - an astounding achievement, regardless of the company input. MR&TVs came an honourable second, with much much less support. That too is remarkable. The sounds of the two groups are highly distinctive, and very different from each other, which helped. I agree with TBFXT in thinking Cal Gill would have done an excellent job on this particular track, as would Wanda Rogers in the latter-day Marvelettes. I also think DRATS would have done a great job in I'm Ready For Love.....thought I love MR&TV's classic version, of course!

[Bluebrock]

It is hard to say. I love both groups but i think Martha lacked lacked Diana's charisma and stage presence. I have seen so many of the greats in concert over the past 40 years or so and i can say without prejudice that no-one has the natural star quality of Diana. She may not be the best vocalist but by God she owns that stage like no-one else. I have seen Sinatra, Streisand, Gladys, Dionne, Neil Diamond, Luther, Bowie and literally dozens of others and no one has got that special extra something that Diana possesses. Martha is a great performer and has sang on so many great songs but i remain doubtful she could have obtained the success of Diana even if Berry had supported her the way he supported Diana, but i am sure others will disagree and i look forward to hearing their opinions.

[sup_fan]

I agree with Bluebrock. there are many many many fine singers - both in the studio and on stage. there are some that sing even better live than in studio. but there are few people that are amazing "entertainer." Diana definitely falls in this later category. And she was from the beginning. mary and flo were strong, and became stronger. check out this clip from their early career. sure mary and flo look great. but look how ecstatic Diana is to be there. this is part of that something extra Berry saw and wanted to develop. Then watch some of the clips on Sullivan like the Millie Rose Mame. then watch those DRATS clips from 68 when they were doing the Talk of the Town show. then watch her GIT performances. her evolution as a "mistress of ceremonies" is marvelous. but she had "it" from the start

very few people do and certainly very few at Motown. you could argue that the two next people even remotely close would be M and F


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpomdqrYd9g

[Jimi LaLumia]

"Itching" worked because of the crosstown traffic between Ross' s delicate [[as always) delivery and the groove machine which that track is;
the two forces playing off against each other is what made the magic, she just gracefully glided above the proceedings and another Top Ten hit was born..

[Bluebrock]

I agree with Bluebrock. there are many many many fine singers - both in the studio and on stage. there are some that sing even better live than in studio. but there are few people that are amazing "entertainer." Diana definitely falls in this later category. And she was from the beginning. mary and flo were strong, and became stronger. check out this clip from their early career. sure mary and flo look great. but look how ecstatic Diana is to be there. this is part of that something extra Berry saw and wanted to develop. Then watch some of the clips on Sullivan like the Millie Rose Mame. then watch those DRATS clips from 68 when they were doing the Talk of the Town show. then watch her GIT performances. her evolution as a "mistress of ceremonies" is marvelous. but she had "it" from the start

very few people do and certainly very few at Motown. you could argue that the two next people even remotely close would be M and F


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpomdqrYd9g

Great post sup fan. A very impressive summary.

[mowest]

This conversation has morphed to something beyond the initial question about a specific song but in a good way! Thanks for all of the insights. Jimi LaLumi's comment was especially interesting.

[Bluebrock]

This conversation has morphed to something beyond the initial question about a specific song but in a good way! Thanks for all of the insights. Jimi LaLumi's comment was especially interesting.

Probably my fault for veering off topic mowest but as you say an interesting debate.

[arr&bee]

i've always thought that "love is like an itching in my heart" should have been recorded and released as a single by martha & the vandellas rather than the supremes. The song has the soul and grit of "heat wave," "quicksand" and "nowhere to run." the supremes' release, which i do love, made it to #9 on billboard and cashbox pop. Do you think it would have been a bigger hit if martha and her girls had done it?

i agree that martha would've torn that song up,and just speaking from the singing aspect of it,i've always thought that other than the aduantes the vandellas had the best harmonies of all the female motown acts.

[RossHolloway]

Forget Martha & The Vandellas, I would have loved to have heard the Temptations with David Ruffin on lead give Itchin a try!

[blackguy69]

Vocally the vandellas were far superior than the Supremes, but. Presentation, that's another story.

[mowest]

i agree that martha would've torn that song up,and just speaking from the singing aspect of it,i've always thought that other than the aduantes the vandellas had the best harmonies of all the female motown acts.

I'd put the Vandellas ahead of the Andantes but if you listen to the early Supremes, their harmonies were outstanding. Once Diana, Mary and Florence hit it big, the background singing became more in unison, I guess you'd say.

[daviddesper]

Considering the vast overall catalog at Motown, it is surprising just how few songs exist that were recorded by the Supremes but also covered by one of the other groups. [[Right now I can think of very few but please correct me if I am wrong.)

One that comes to mind is Someday We'll Be Together. As much as I adore Wanda Rogers, the Diana version is far superior. So the conclusion we might draw is that once a song was given to Diana Ross, it was HERS and nobody else should even attempt to touch it.

However, one other song that comes to mind that is an exception, at least for my tastes, is I'm a Winner. Martha tore that up, whereas I simply did not care for Diana's totally different arrangement. But of course we are comparing a group to a solo performance in that case, so that might change things on that technicality.

[Bluebrock]

Forget Martha & The Vandellas, I would have loved to have heard the Temptations with David Ruffin on lead give Itchin a try!

Oh yes. Now that would have been something else!

[Bluebrock]

Vocally the vandellas were far superior than the Supremes, but. Presentation, that's another story.

Good point blackguy69. Not sure i would say "far superior" but i take on board the point you are making.

[lakedistrictlad1]

This seems like an appropriate thread to post this question -

Is it correct that Martha & The Vandellas recorded 'Going down for the third time? I seem to have read that somewhere. It's a song that seems ideal for Martha, though Diana does an amazing job on it.

If Martha did record it - i'm really surprised it hasn't surfaced yet.

[bradsupremes]

Is it correct that Martha & The Vandellas recorded 'Going down for the third time? I seem to have read that somewhere. It's a song that seems ideal for Martha, though Diana does an amazing job on it.

I have heard that rumor too, but I don't think anything was ever found. I could be wrong. I would love to it if it exists. The track actually was assigned to the Elgins at first, but then reassigned to the Supremes.

[mowest]

This seems like an appropriate thread to post this question -

Is it correct that Martha & The Vandellas recorded 'Going down for the third time? I seem to have read that somewhere. It's a song that seems ideal for Martha, though Diana does an amazing job on it.

If Martha did record it - i'm really surprised it hasn't surfaced yet.

Motown really blew it when they placed "Going Down" on the flip side of "Reflections." It should have been an A side in its own right. One of the best performances by the Supremes. Why do you think they did this?

[RossHolloway]

Considering the vast overall catalog at Motown, it is surprising just how few songs exist that were recorded by the Supremes but also covered by one of the other groups. [[Right now I can think of very few but please correct me if I am wrong.)

One that comes to mind is Someday We'll Be Together. As much as I adore Wanda Rogers, the Diana version is far superior. So the conclusion we might draw is that once a song was given to Diana Ross, it was HERS and nobody else should even attempt to touch it.

However, one other song that comes to mind that is an exception, at least for my tastes, is I'm a Winner. Martha tore that up, whereas I simply did not care for Diana's totally different arrangement. But of course we are comparing a group to a solo performance in that case, so that might change things on that technicality.

Come See About Me- Jr Walker; EVD; Originals; Contours; Choker Campbell
I Hear A Symphony- Stevie W; J5; Barbara McNair; Isley Brothers
My World Is Empty - Barbara McNair; Stevie Wonder; Miracles; Originals
Stop! In The Name - Kim Weston; Isley Brothers

Off the top of my head..

[midnightman]

As much I like Martha and as much as I can see her attacking this song, this song belonged to the Supremes for a reason... that mixture of proto funk beats and the pop-soul deliveries of all three made it sizzle imho... I honestly can't see another group deliver it with that same gusto... should've been a bigger hit, though having it at #9 was still a big deal considering it was less poppy than some of the ones that made #1...

[marybrewster]

It is hard to say. I love both groups but i think Martha lacked lacked Diana's charisma and stage presence. I have seen so many of the greats in concert over the past 40 years or so and i can say without prejudice that no-one has the natural star quality of Diana. She may not be the best vocalist but by God she owns that stage like no-one else. I have seen Sinatra, Streisand, Gladys, Dionne, Neil Diamond, Luther, Bowie and literally dozens of others and no one has got that special extra something that Diana possesses. Martha is a great performer and has sang on so many great songs but i remain doubtful she could have obtained the success of Diana even if Berry had supported her the way he supported Diana, but i am sure others will disagree and i look forward to hearing their opinions.

I'd also add that no other Motown artist, IMO, had the same drive that Diana did. She was willing to do whatever it takes to become a star. Not that Martha [[or others) didn't have ambition, but Diana was x 10.

I think the other thing, if comparing Supremes to Vandellas is: while both groups at various points had internal struggles, the Supremes were able to keep it together much better than the Vandellas. From the period of 1964 - 1970, the Supremes only had one lineup change [[Flo to Cindy), where the Vandellas had Annette to Betty, Betty to Lois, and Roz to Sandy. If anything, the Supremes were more consistent. Does that mean Martha was harder to work with? Or that Flo [[and Cindy) and Mary had a similar drive as Diana?

It's funny, I've always heard of the Supremes lineups referred to as a "revolving door", but when you look at other groups [[Vandellas, Temptations), the Supremes weren't really much different, at least until 1973.

[Sharpmoves]

I'd also add that no other Motown artist, IMO, had the same drive that Diana did. She was willing to do whatever it takes to become a star. Not that Martha [[or others) didn't have ambition, but Diana was x 10.

I think the other thing, if comparing Supremes to Vandellas is: while both groups at various points had internal struggles, the Supremes were able to keep it together much better than the Vandellas. From the period of 1964 - 1970, the Supremes only had one lineup change [[Flo to Cindy), where the Vandellas had Annette to Betty, Betty to Lois, and Roz to Sandy. If anything, the Supremes were more consistent. Does that mean Martha was harder to work with? Or that Flo [[and Cindy) and Mary had a similar drive as Diana?

It's funny, I've always heard of the Supremes lineups referred to as a "revolving door", but when you look at other groups [[Vandellas, Temptations), the Supremes weren't really much different, at least until 1973.

I agree. And it's worth remembering that only Martha was under direct contract to Motown - all the Vandellas were sub-contracted by Martha. That made her personally responsible for the group, and probably increased pressure on her. That said, Annette left to marry and start a family. Ditto Sandy. Martha had problems with both Betty and Ros, leading to their exits from the group. I think you are right that Diana had the stronger ambition to succeed, and the willingness to be micro-managed by Berry Gordy to achieve that end, even if he pushed her really hard. Martha seems to have been more feisty and maybe she would not have responded so well to intensely close personal management by Berry Gordy. That said, Martha and her group did really well, and have left a lasting legacy. She might have been even more successful still had Motown taken a bit more interest in her after 1965, and had dedicated a writing and production team to develop and support her style. As it was, she was rather pushed from pillar to post, producing some great recordings, but without a clear career trajectory in view. The management of her last singles and albums looks a bit chaotic to me. Imagine releasing I should be Proud, as the single to lead sales of Natural Resources, only to pull it, and not follow up with another track from that album. Easily Persuaded would have hit, I think, in the UK. So might The Hurt Is Over. Ah well, it's water under the bridge now. I too prefer Martha's I'm a Winner, over Diana's, but that's just a matter of personal taste.

[jobeterob]

As long as hits keep coming and $$$ keeps being made, it often stops the revolving door from happening. When the $$$ stopped for the Supremes in 1973, the revolving door started.

Martha and the Vandellas were a stunning group and Martha has worked hard in the last twenty years to maintain her career, just like Mary Wilson.

But Martha & the Vandellas basically did not have albums that were hits. They were very much more a singles group only, like the Marvelettes.

[TheMotownManiac]

I'd like to hear Martha on this as well, but I'd LOVE to hear Kim, Gladys Knight or Tammi on it. I don't think Cal, Wanda, Mary, Flo or Brenda could add to it. However, to your point, remember that Martha was given priority status at Motown as soon as Come & Ge These Memories nearly hit. She got an album, new attention to stage show, [[new songs, clothes and intense vocal work with Johnny Allen) and sent right back into the studio with HDH for Heatwave and a second 1963 LP. All this while The Supremes were given an absurd country release and a Smokey tune clearly written with Mary Wells in mind and The Marvelettes were no longer the priority they once were. Spoon, Martha would echo The marvelettes' slip after 2 hits and and a new group would step in and get the push - only this time, there was no slump and history was made. Every act got the push they earned and deserved as deemed by public response. Martha's voice never caught on with the general audience and their inability to sell albums proves it. The Four Tops' first album far outsold the Heat Wave LP even though it contained only one #11 hit vs Martha's two top tens. Five days after Where Did Our Love Go LP hit stores, Motown ordered another pressing and another ten days later - all on the strength of one hit. The public responded strongly to Diana's voice with HDH in a way no other Motown act ever did. The Supremes, Tops, Tempts, smokey & Stevie got the most because they earned the most.

I'd love to hear a MR&TV cover of "itching". The problem with this sort of discussion is that it assumes that recordings are successful simply and solely on the basis of their artistic merits. But we know that there is much more to it than that. If the question is "if MR&TVs had been Berry Gordy's No 1 priority act, and they had had the input, attention, and company resources that went with that, including exclusive access to HDH, would they have bested the Supremes?" No one can really know, but the answer is probably "they may have". The Supremes were the most commercially successful female act of the 1960s - an astounding achievement, regardless of the company input. MR&TVs came an honourable second, with much much less support. That too is remarkable. The sounds of the two groups are highly distinctive, and very different from each other, which helped. I agree with TBFXT in thinking Cal Gill would have done an excellent job on this particular track, as would Wanda Rogers in the latter-day Marvelettes. I also think DRATS would have done a great job in I'm Ready For Love.....thought I love MR&TV's classic version, of course!

[TheMotownManiac]

I love Martha as well, but Diana has an indefinable quality that casts a spell on the willing. I don't think that makes her a better choice for Itching, but her vocal is very strong and soulful - plus, the intended audience already was loving her voice big time. That's why HDH took their time to craft hits for Supremes & Tops because the public adored their sound and HDH adored the sound of the cash register. I can't hear Diana on Dancing In The Street, I Should Be Proud, Honey Chile or Nowhere To Run, but I do think any of the Motown ladies in '63 would have hit with Heat Wave. I don't like comparing our Motown gals in terms of who's a better singer, but you are correct: no one can top Diana on stage. Even today, she's doing another 50-60 concerts and selling very well. Not easy when you consider most of the cities are on constant repeat [[like her set list, unfortunately.)

It is hard to say. I love both groups but i think Martha lacked lacked Diana's charisma and stage presence. I have seen so many of the greats in concert over the past 40 years or so and i can say without prejudice that no-one has the natural star quality of Diana. She may not be the best vocalist but by God she owns that stage like no-one else. I have seen Sinatra, Streisand, Gladys, Dionne, Neil Diamond, Luther, Bowie and literally dozens of others and no one has got that special extra something that Diana possesses. Martha is a great performer and has sang on so many great songs but i remain doubtful she could have obtained the success of Diana even if Berry had supported her the way he supported Diana, but i am sure others will disagree and i look forward to hearing their opinions.

[Motown Eddie]

I've always thought that "Love Is Like An Itching In My Heart" should have been recorded and released as a single by Martha & The Vandellas rather than The Supremes. The song has the soul and grit of "Heat Wave," "Quicksand" and "Nowhere To Run." The Supremes' release, which I do love, made it to #9 on Billboard and Cashbox Pop. Do you think it would have been a bigger hit if Martha and her girls had done it?

I don't think that "Love Is Like An Itching In My Heart" would've been a bigger hit if Martha & the Vandellas had recorded & released it. Remember; The Supremes were at the very, very height of their popularity with their run of hits and live appearances. Also, "Itching" [[as well as "Going Down For The Third Time") show that The Supremes could handle 'tougher' material than the 'softer' songs that made their career. That said; I think that Martha & Co. would've made a fantastic version of the song [[particularly if they used that same track that The Supremes used) if Motown gave them a crack at it.

[RossHolloway]

Did Martha & The Vandellas cover any Supreme's songs? Off the top of my head I can't think of any.

[reese]

Did Martha & The Vandellas cover any Supreme's songs? Off the top of my head I can't think of any.

TIME CHANGES THINGS and PLAY A SAD SONG are the only ones I can think of and they went unreleased for years. As a solo, Martha recorded COME SEE ABOUT ME.