Did the Marvelettes career suffer from too many novelty songs?

[luke]

Twistin Postman. My baby Must Be a Magician[[ tho a hit), Beechwood,the Hunter gets captured by the game[[ tho a hit)...I'm just wondering if they could have gone farther with less of those types ala vandellas and Supremes.

[daviddesper]

I am not sure that I would call hardly any Motown songs "novelty songs." When I think of that term, I think of things like The Streak, Itsy Bitsy Teeny Weenie Yellow Polka Dot Bikini, and maybe the whole Bubble Gum Music craze. I think all Motown songs were meant to either be serious love songs or message songs.

Yes, I know that Smokey sometimes overdid it with cliches, but I never felt it took away from the seriousness of any of his compositions.

[marv2]

Twistin Postman. My baby Must Be a Magician[[ tho a hit), Beechwood,the Hunter gets captured by the game[[ tho a hit)...I'm just wondering if they could have gone farther with less of those types ala vandellas and Supremes.

I think it was due to lack of support by the label. They were early stars on the Motown Roster and when others became popular, they got pushed to the side.

[thomas96]

Hunter and Magician were absolutely not "novelty" songs.

[marv2]

Hunter and Magician were absolutely not "novelty" songs.

They were two of Smokey's finest. I do understand what Luke is getting at in terms of the Marvelettes early recordings.
That was the practice in the recording industry in those days. Follow up a hit with a similar type record which is why we had so many "Twist" and mashed potatoes and gravy songs in the early sixties. LOL!

[Motown Eddie]

Twistin Postman. My baby Must Be a Magician[[ tho a hit), Beechwood,the Hunter gets captured by the game[[ tho a hit)...I'm just wondering if they could have gone farther with less of those types ala vandellas and Supremes.

The only 'novelty song' I can think of by The Marvelettes is "Twistin' Postman". The groups' early hits [["Please Mr. Postman", "Playboy", "Beechwood 4-5789") have all the fun & innocence of the "Girl Group Sound" of the early '60s and gave the Marvelettes an identity. As Motown went on and The Supremes began their great run of hits, Gordy found the group that would fulfill all of the aspirations he had for mainstream success [[and centered most of the attention on them). The Marvelettes mid to late '60s songs scored with more mature sounds/lyrics and shook off their earlier "Girl Group" image. It's hard to say what would've made the group "go further" with Motown's attention focused on The Supremes [[and later launching Diana Ross' solo career).

[BigAl]

I wouldn't term most Marvelettes' songs as being "novelty" numbers, either. Smokey's lyrics were sometimes a bit too cutesy, but then, so were Cole Porter's.

The unpolished, sharp-edged harmonies of The Marvelettes proved irresistible in the beginning. They sounded [[and were) young and energetic and gave Hitsville that needed boost, but that style became dated in a hurry. "Too Many Fish in the Sea" was the last of that kind of number for them. It charted fairly respectably but that type of song and production had become a bit repetitive, and more "mature" female acts like Supremes and Vandellas became more the standard for the label so it was decided to try to force The Marvelettes into that mold, downsizing them to a trio and glossing them up. Wanda was handed the majority of the leads and producers started padding out the backgrounds with Andantes. This "maturing" changed the whole concept of the group. Gone was all that youthful exuberance. While it worked okay on disc and yielded a handful of great tracks and few bona fide hits, the group just wasn't geared toward that sort of performance. When I saw them in '66 on a bill with the Contours and Tempts, they were calmed down and lacquered up to the extent that they almost seemed like they were sleepwalking. On the older songs, those three voices just couldn't generate the necessary energy and sound, and in evening gowns there was no chance that they could execute the moves for which they had previously been noteworthy. In addition, their "look" was so odd, with Wanda being so tiny and Kat being so tall, that it was distracting. To further confound audiences, Wanda had taken to putting glitter on her face[[!) and Gladys [[I'm not kidding) had on a tiara, so they looked really bizarre.

As far as Gordy was concerned, the group had served its purpose for him by 1964 and he simply relegated them to third-tier status and left them there. If it weren't for Smokey's efforts I suspect they'd have been all but finished, and you have to admire them for forging on, leaving us with some wonderful yet low-charting songs.

[RossHolloway]

I wouldn't term most Marvelettes' songs as being "novelty" numbers, either. Smokey's lyrics were sometimes a bit too cutesy, but then, so were Cole Porter's.

The unpolished, sharp-edged harmonies of The Marvelettes proved irresistible in the beginning. They sounded [[and were) young and energetic and gave Hitsville that needed boost, but that style became dated in a hurry. "Too Many Fish in the Sea" was the last of that kind of number for them. It charted fairly respectably but that type of song and production had become a bit repetitive, and more "mature" female acts like Supremes and Vandellas became more the standard for the label so it was decided to try to force The Marvelettes into that mold, downsizing them to a trio and glossing them up. Wanda was handed the majority of the leads and producers started padding out the backgrounds with Andantes. This "maturing" changed the whole concept of the group. Gone was all that youthful exuberance. While it worked okay on disc and yielded a handful of great tracks and few bona fide hits, the group just wasn't geared toward that sort of performance. When I saw them in '66 on a bill with the Contours and Tempts, they were calmed down and lacquered up to the extent that they almost seemed like they were sleepwalking. On the older songs, those three voices just couldn't generate the necessary energy and sound, and in evening gowns there was no chance that they could execute the moves for which they had previously been noteworthy. In addition, their "look" was so odd, with Wanda being so tiny and Kat being so tall, that it was distracting. To further confound audiences, Wanda had taken to putting glitter on her face[[!) and Gladys [[I'm not kidding) had on a tiara, so they looked really bizarre.

As far as Gordy was concerned, the group had served its purpose for him by 1964 and he simply relegated them to third-tier status and left them there. If it weren't for Smokey's efforts I suspect they'd have been all but finished, and you have to admire them for forging on, leaving us with some wonderful yet low-charting songs.

I think there were internal issues within the group that also played a part in how much the company pushed the group. I do not believe that Mr. Gordy ever had some sinister plan to keep the Marvelettes down. I think Katherine and Gladys have given interviews on what happened to the group.

[luke]

Thanks for input. I love the Marvelettes and especially I' keep Holdin On and Danger Heartbreak Dead Ahead. Can you imagine Wanda singing Love Is Like An Itching In My Heart....

[arr&bee]

When the supremes[hit]and kept on hitting, that was it for not only the marvelettes but the vandellas too..the marvelettes were cute and the vandellas were soulful,but when hdh put the supremes on the map berry had found what he wanted,that sophistification that he felt would be accepted[and it was]by the big media shows[ed sullivan].

[StuBass1]

Interesting topic, and I agree with those who believe that The Marvelettes songs were well relevant to the times they were recorded and thus, would not consider them "novelty songs"...Despite what might have been some internal issues, including some of their families not wishing them to sing secular songs, it's also evident that Berry Gordy had his marquee groups...Tempts & Tops on the male side, Supremes and Vandellas on the female side, The Miracles due to his relationship with Smokey, and likely decided not to dilute his talent pool by presenting too many first tier groups as marquee acts so the public would focus on the groups he decided would represent the company brand...

[marv2]

Interesting topic, and I agree with those who believe that The Marvelettes songs were well relevant to the times they were recorded and thus, would not consider them "novelty songs"...Despite what might have been some internal issues, including some of their families not wishing them to sing secular songs, it's also evident that Berry Gordy had his marquee groups...Tempts & Tops on the male side, Supremes and Vandellas on the female side, The Miracles due to his relationship with Smokey, and likely decided not to dilute his talent pool by presenting too many first tier groups as marquee acts so the public would focus on the groups he decided would represent the company brand...

I understand completely Stu, I just wished something more could have been done for them by Motown. Truth is the Marvelettes success early in the company's history help fund future services like Artist Development that benefited other artists.

[luke]

True. They had the first Motown #1! And Berry was going to have the last album as a solo Wanda project. I wonder what changed his mind?!

[StuBass1]

Several years ago the Digitalreamdoor website which does all the music lists took on a project to list the greatest music artists...I don't remember how many, maybe the top 500, and included bios on most of the artists. Knowing my familiarity with Motown, they asked me to do the Marvelettes bio which I researched and did. As pertains to this discussion, one thing that perhaps played some role in this topic now that I think about it is the fact that the top flight Motown groups, particularly those that rose to the top in Motowns heyday...Supremes, Vandellas, Tops and Tempts were pretty much all comprised of kids that either grew up or ended up in largely the same neighborhoods in Detroit...Remember that The Marvelettes were basically Inkster girls from the Detroit suburb and weren't a part of that Detroit clique. I wonder if that played into their being placed into the second tier, especially as Martha & The Vandellas pretty much surpassed them from the mid to late 60's as they got the hottest material and the better promotion??...Just a thought...

[westgrandboulevard]

Take any large group of people - for example, all the talented artists at Motown - and certain individuals will always stand out from the crowd.

Either they have an instinctive eye on the bigger picture and just work their way towards it...or there is a strong potential within them but maybe also some uncertainty which, with guidance and management, can then be fully realised.

Those are the individuals who respond best to positive suggestions put to them by others, seeking to manage them, and direct them in their given careers.

I still love The Marvelettes to this day, but I don't think they were ever career girls, and that they didn't give a lot of thought to what they might be doing this year or next year in the industry, or the year after.

Their talent could have been developed even more by Motown, by exploiting their sassiness and keeping them in the R&B mould, but also with careful thought given to producing more showcase tracks which could be released as singles, tailored to developing their talents....and perhaps with added exploration and use of jazz in their arrangements [[which seems to suit Wanda's voice), as a development of their R&B experience rather than, say, going in the direction of show tunes, as with the other groups.

The Supremes had their identity with Diana leading the way, and The Vandellas had the same, with Martha...so the direction of those groups mirrored the progress of their leader...but I don't think any of the ladies in The Marvelettes had the same degree of focus as possessed by Diana and Martha, either in themselves, or with their careers.

Considering that the career path of The Marvelettes was inconsistent in terms of sales and stage work, yet certainly fizzed and sparkled at intervals, I'd say Motown did stick with them, and continued to record them on many great tracks [[albeit in the group name only), some of which were released at the time on singles and albums, while many others were stockpiled in the vaults.

Motown was in the business of selling records, mainly singles, both for the R&B and the much larger pop market, with repertoires and stage careers being developed from the success of those recordings.

Compared to the attention that other record companies would give to artists when their recordings became less successful, and when considering collections like 'Forever' and 'Forever More', I'd say that, overall, Motown probably did as much as they could with The Marvelettes.

[Motown Eddie]

True. They had the first Motown #1! And Berry was going to have the last album as a solo Wanda project. I wonder what changed his mind?!

According to legend, Motown's sales department felt that the final album would sell better with The Marvelettes' name on it rather than Wanda Rogers. Also, wonder how Wanda's problems with drugs at the time played into all of this?

[marv2]

According to legend, Motown's sales department felt that the final album would sell better with The Marvelettes' name on it rather than Wanda Rogers. Also, wonder how Wanda's problems with drugs at the time played into all of this?

I also believe because it was around the time they were promoting Diana Ross as a solo they did not promote Wanda as one.

[luke]

Both make sense. Wanda also had a sultry, kittenish quality like Ms Ross and even the eyes seemed similar to me. I doubt Diana would have liked the competition.!

[RossHolloway]

I don't think that Wanda wanted a solo career. Wanda had young children AND she was married to Bobby Rodgers of the Miracles. I would have imagined that they were living a pretty nice lifestyle by this point.

[Motown Eddie]

I also believe because it was around the time they were promoting Diana Ross as a solo they did not promote Wanda as one.

Motown was not going to let anything get in the way of launching Diana Ross' solo career in 1970. Aside from Diana's talent and drive, she would follow all of [[or most of) Berry Gordy's orders to the tee [[we'll never know if Wanda Rogers could or would to the same). Also, Motown was taken up with the successful launch of The Jackson 5 in 1969/1970.

[marv2]

Motown was not going to let anything get in the way of launching Diana Ross' solo career in 1970. Aside from Diana's talent and drive, she would follow all of [[or most of) Berry Gordy's orders to the tee [[we'll never know if Wanda Rogers could or would to the same). Also, Motown was taken up with the successful launch of The Jackson 5 in 1969/1970.

Good points Motown Eddie.

[arr&bee]

According to ranoma gordy,after wanda's sister was killed in front of her,she more or less fell apart,and although she was part of the motown family it was still a buisiness and if berry had plans for her solo career he wasn't gonna wait forever,wanda would've been a sensation as a solo artist.

[luke]

Do you all think Gladys Horton could have evolved into a singer like Gladys Knight per her soul stylings?

[luke]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qFm2ISMn82w From what I've heard it's amazing they got this performance with editing..but Wanda sure comes off well!

[Motown Eddie]

According to ranoma gordy,after wanda's sister was killed in front of her,she more or less fell apart,and although she was part of the motown family it was still a buisiness and if berry had plans for her solo career he wasn't gonna wait forever,wanda would've been a sensation as a solo artist.

I don't think that Berry Gordy had any plans to launch Wanda Rogers as a solo artist. For one, BG had to know that she had been using drugs and become difficult to work with. Also, there was the tragic death of her Sister which weighed heavy on Wanda at the time. And, using the Marvelettes name [[for the name value of the group) for the album that Wanda made as a soloist shows that there were no plans of promoting Wanda on her own.

[Motown Eddie]

Do you all think Gladys Horton could have evolved into a singer like Gladys Knight per her soul stylings?

I don't think so. Gladys Horton had her own distinctive sound and I think she would've stayed with it if she stayed with The Marvelettes.

[arr&bee]

I think that gladys horton would've been better served as a solo artist at[stax].

[kenneth]

I wouldn't term most Marvelettes' songs as being "novelty" numbers, either. Smokey's lyrics were sometimes a bit too cutesy, but then, so were Cole Porter's.

The unpolished, sharp-edged harmonies of The Marvelettes proved irresistible in the beginning. They sounded [[and were) young and energetic and gave Hitsville that needed boost, but that style became dated in a hurry. "Too Many Fish in the Sea" was the last of that kind of number for them. It charted fairly respectably but that type of song and production had become a bit repetitive, and more "mature" female acts like Supremes and Vandellas became more the standard for the label so it was decided to try to force The Marvelettes into that mold, downsizing them to a trio and glossing them up. Wanda was handed the majority of the leads and producers started padding out the backgrounds with Andantes. This "maturing" changed the whole concept of the group. Gone was all that youthful exuberance. While it worked okay on disc and yielded a handful of great tracks and few bona fide hits, the group just wasn't geared toward that sort of performance. When I saw them in '66 on a bill with the Contours and Tempts, they were calmed down and lacquered up to the extent that they almost seemed like they were sleepwalking. On the older songs, those three voices just couldn't generate the necessary energy and sound, and in evening gowns there was no chance that they could execute the moves for which they had previously been noteworthy. In addition, their "look" was so odd, with Wanda being so tiny and Kat being so tall, that it was distracting. To further confound audiences, Wanda had taken to putting glitter on her face[[!) and Gladys [[I'm not kidding) had on a tiara, so they looked really bizarre.

As far as Gordy was concerned, the group had served its purpose for him by 1964 and he simply relegated them to third-tier status and left them there. If it weren't for Smokey's efforts I suspect they'd have been all but finished, and you have to admire them for forging on, leaving us with some wonderful yet low-charting songs.

This is one of the most concise and accurate assessments of the group that I have ever read.

I guess they liked tiaras back then. Wanda is wearing one on the cover of "The Season of Miracles," while holding her newborn baby. She looks scrumptious; not sure Gladys could pull it off!

[Ngroove]

Marvelettes did not make any "novelty" songs.




Tony Martin's "Ask Any Man" was novelty.

Soupy Sales' "Muck-Arty-Park" was novelty.

Captain Zap and the Motortown Cut-Ups was novelty.

[sup_fan]

it's pretty clear that if the artist wasn't extremely serious about their career, he didn't have much interest in their long term possibilities. he's repeatedly said that not only did Diana have "it" but she was willing to work and sacrifice for it. very few other artists on the label fell into that category.

also berry did NOT have any tolerance for drugs, alcohol or shenanigans. Wanda was having some serious issues. now it could be argued that had she had career support and management like Diana did that perhaps she wouldn't have fallen victim to that. But Wanda is not an all-around entertainer like Diana is.

And the Marvelettes didn't have the same appeal and potential as the Sups. they were hardly the most gifted singers. Even Gladys has commented on this. on how her group was never intentioned to sing standards like Somewhere in 3-part harmony [[or 4 or 5part harmony for them lol). that wasn't their niche

[luke]

I don't think we would ever have known whether Wanda could have been an all around entertainer. I think certainly Mary Wells and Brenda could have been as well as Flo and Mary who has become one. And of course Gladys K did.

[huntergettingcaptured]

Compared to the attention that other record companies would give to artists when their recordings became less successful, and when considering collections like 'Forever' and 'Forever More', I'd say that, overall, Motown probably did as much as they could with The Marvelettes.

I don't think I've ever read it said as well as you summed it up. I think everyone understands the Marvelettes weren't pushed as much once other groups started really taking off; I've been reading those comments and feeling the same for years.

But looking back at the overall picture, one thing I've noticed is that The Marvelettes at least received consistent, yearly album releases after the "Greatest Hits" album. Their singles were lavished with the same quality care and consideration as any of the other "top-tier" groups. Also, they figured pretty often in the Motown trade ads whenever those ads were featuring all of their biggest artists.

One very interesting thing I picked up recently: a program for one of the Motown Revue shows. I believe it was around the time of "Don't Mess With Bill." I was really surprised that on the back of the program, there was a full photo, not of the Supremes or Temptations, or Stevie Wonder, but The Marvelettes. That one really took me by surprise as it really gave the group a pretty good profile- the entire page for themselves. I think in a way, Motown was acknowledging their renewed status with the success on the charts with "Bill."

I think Motown could have done better by the group, but at the same time, Motown also could have allowed The Marvelettes to disappear into the backwaters of that second-tier limbo-especially when they hit a dry spell around '64.

[arr&bee]

Maybe something we didn't consider,remember wanda was married to bobby rodger so maybe because of his closeness to smokey may have resulted in smokey's helping them with some hits when perhaps berry was ready to ignore them.

[Motown Eddie]

Maybe something we didn't consider,remember wanda was married to bobby rodger so maybe because of his closeness to smokey may have resulted in smokey's helping them with some hits when perhaps berry was ready to ignore them.

Smokey Robinson has often said that he was attracted to what he called Wanda's "sexy country voice" and considered her an "untapped talent". It's not known if he started working with The Marvelettes simply because Wanda had married his friend Bobby Rogers.

[reese]

Smokey Robinson has often said that he was attracted to what he called Wanda's "sexy country voice" and considered her an "untapped talent". It's not known if he started working with The Marvelettes simply because Wanda had married his friend Bobby Rogers.

It might be a bit of both. Smokey had already done some work with the Marvelettes, using Gladys on lead, before the switch to Wanda with YOU'RE MY REMEDY. I read one interview where Smokey said he considered Wanda a "sleeping giant" in the group, the same as he felt David Ruffin was one when he gave him MY GIRL.

[marybrewster]

Perhaps a better question is:

Would the Marvelettes have fared better if there was more thought put into their 2nd release, setting them up for a greater success?

Hot off the heels of "Please Mr. Postman", Motown rushed "Marvelettes Smash Hits of '62" [[later reissued as "Marvelettes Sing"). Trying to piggyback off that success and the "twist craze", this LP included "Twistin' Postman", "Slow Twist", and "Twistin' the Night Away". To me, this screams "novelty" record. At the very least, was very one dimensional.

[RossHolloway]

[QUOTE=marybrewster;329584]Perhaps a better question is:

Would the Marvelettes have fared better if there was more thought put into their 2nd release, setting them up for a greater success?

Hot off the heels of "Please Mr. Postman", Motown rushed "Marvelettes Smash Hits of '62" [[later reissued as "Marvelettes Sing"). Trying to piggyback off that success and the "twist craze", this LP included "Twistin' Postman", "Slow Twist", and "Twistin' the Night Away". To me, this screams "novelty" record. At the very least, was very one dimensional.[/



Then how do you explain the success of their third album, Playboy, that included the two big top 10 hits Playboy and Beachwood 45789 in '62?

[arr&bee]

Remember this was early motown and berry was trying to keep the hits coming,so he piggybacked,he got smarter by-62.

[Motown Eddie]

Perhaps a better question is:

Would the Marvelettes have fared better if there was more thought put into their 2nd release, setting them up for a greater success?

Hot off the heels of "Please Mr. Postman", Motown rushed "Marvelettes Smash Hits of '62" [[later reissued as "Marvelettes Sing"). Trying to piggyback off that success and the "twist craze", this LP included "Twistin' Postman", "Slow Twist", and "Twistin' the Night Away". To me, this screams "novelty" record. At the very least, was very one dimensional.

I don't think so. Remember back in the early '60s, 'the twist bandwagon' was certainly one to get on [[as a lot of artists back then did). Also, the LP market for R&B/Soul/Pop music was just getting started [[and the single was King back then) so there wasn't that much interest in what The Marvelettes did for their 2nd LP.

[sup_fan]

i don't think Sing Hits of 62 is a novelty record as much as it's just a cash in on a craze or current trend. novelty means something totally unique and 1-off. there were zillions of "twist" things. plus it did sometimes work. Where Did Our Love Go spawned Come See About me and Baby love. Sugar Pie Honey Bunch - It's the Same Old Song

[captainjames]

No I think internal problems destroyed them.