"Neither One Of Us" released on December 26, 1972

[midnightman]

Judging on the timeline of GK&TPs and Motown, according to Don't Forget the Motor City, "Neither One of Us" was released on December 26, 1972 for promo.

Then in January 1973, GK&TPs tried to negotiate a better contract with Motown Records as their contract had expired that month [[I guess they signed to Motown in January 1966?) and negotiations broke down after several days due to them not seeing eye to eye on things [[how prophetic that the lyrics to Neither One of Us had the words "there can be no way this can have a happy ending").

The group is allowed to leave the label and in February 1973, it's reported on Billboard that the group has signed with Buddah Records. "Neither One of Us" topped the charts in March of 1973.

So "Neither One of Us" definitely was the last song GK&TPs released while still on Motown while they released at least three other singles posthumously.

All I can think of is, "wow, what a way to go out". There have been many legendary Motown acts who leave the label, most without much fanfare but I never read about such a dramatic exit as Gladys Knight & the Pips'.

[marv2]

Wow! Has it really been that long?

[Bluebrock]

Judging on the timeline of GK&TPs and Motown, according to Don't Forget the Motor City, "Neither One of Us" was released on December 26, 1972 for promo.

Then in January 1973, GK&TPs tried to negotiate a better contract with Motown Records as their contract had expired that month [[I guess they signed to Motown in January 1966?) and negotiations broke down after several days due to them not seeing eye to eye on things [[how prophetic that the lyrics to Neither One of Us had the words "there can be no way this can have a happy ending").

The group is allowed to leave the label and in February 1973, it's reported on Billboard that the group has signed with Buddah Records. "Neither One of Us" topped the charts in March of 1973.

So "Neither One of Us" definitely was the last song GK&TPs released while still on Motown while they released at least three other singles posthumously.

All I can think of is, "wow, what a way to go out". There have been many legendary Motown acts who leave the label, most without much fanfare but I never read about such a dramatic exit as Gladys Knight & the Pips'.

Gladys constantly carps on about how badly treated the group were at Motown, but one thing she cannot complain about was the quality of material given to them. It was a very consistent body of work which in my opinion stands up with the best of the Motown acts. Of course Gladys could make even the weakest of songs sound good but does anyone on here really think the group were given 2nd rate songs to record?Over 40 years have elapsed sice they signed to Buddah but these songs, and particularly NOOUWTSG still sound magnificent to these ears.

[westgrandboulevard]

Bluebrock, I agree, and certainly don't think the group was given second rate songs to record.

It's true that GK&P were given many songs which also went to other acts to record, but which was just the Motown way of operating a recording business.

There were other artists at Motown who were bigger names in the industry before Gladys & The Pips signed for Motown, and continued to be so, and therefore had first call on new, original songs.

Also, Gladys' version of 'I Heard It Through The Grapevine' was indeed topped by Marvin Gaye's version.

I can see several, fully justifiable reasons why Gladys, as main spokesperson for the group, would view their stay at Motown with a negative slant. However, I do often wish Gladys could, over 40 years later, be more completely positive about their Motown catalogue, and simply let her fans decide on how they feel about it.

Martha Reeves, for example, could also be very negative about aspects of her Motown career, but does not choose to be, which is very wise. If we still enjoy Martha's recordings and stage performances to this day, then so will she. What we have received and maybe still retain in our lives, should be given far more importance than what we feel we've lost, or never had.

And, 'second rate' songs or not, would Gladys & The Pips have been in the position to achieve success with Buddah, if they had not previously recorded for Motown?

I believe Gladys has stated that she never wanted to sign with Motown in the first place, but was outvoted by the Pips.

It's hard not to form the strong impression that Gladys' initial reluctance then went on to influence her whole perception of their work at Motown, and may continue to do so. That's regrettable, if it is at odds with those of us who continue to enjoy her very high quality Motown recordings, to this day.

[marv2]

Bluebrock, I agree, and certainly don't think the group was given second rate songs to record.

It's true that GK&P were given many songs which also went to other acts to record, but which was just the Motown way of operating a recording business.

There were other artists at Motown who were bigger names in the industry before Gladys & The Pips signed for Motown, and continued to be so, and therefore had first call on new, original songs.

Also, Gladys' version of 'I Heard It Through The Grapevine' was indeed topped by Marvin Gaye's version.

I can see several, fully justifiable reasons why Gladys, as main spokesperson for the group, would view their stay at Motown with a negative slant. However, I do often wish Gladys could, over 40 years later, be more completely positive about their Motown catalogue, and simply let her fans decide on how they feel about it.

Martha Reeves, for example, could also be very negative about aspects of her Motown career, but does not choose to be, which is very wise. If we still enjoy Martha's recordings and stage performances to this day, then so will she. What we have received and maybe still retain in our lives, should be given far more importance than what we feel we've lost, or never had.

And, 'second rate' songs or not, would Gladys & The Pips have been in the position to achieve success with Buddah, if they had not previously recorded for Motown?

I believe Gladys has stated that she never wanted to sign with Motown in the first place, but was outvoted by the Pips.

It's hard not to form the strong impression that Gladys' initial reluctance then went on to influence her whole perception of their work at Motown, and may continue to do so. That's regrettable, if it is at odds with those of us who continue to enjoy her very high quality Motown recordings, to this day.

Bubba Knight answers all those questions and discusses Glady's issues with Motown in complete detail in the interview he did with Tom Speros I posted last week.

[Sharpmoves]

Bluebrock, I agree, and certainly don't think the group was given second rate songs to record.

It's true that GK&P were given many songs which also went to other acts to record, but which was just the Motown way of operating a recording business.

There were other artists at Motown who were bigger names in the industry before Gladys & The Pips signed for Motown, and continued to be so, and therefore had first call on new, original songs.

Also, Gladys' version of 'I Heard It Through The Grapevine' was indeed topped by Marvin Gaye's version.

I can see several, fully justifiable reasons why Gladys, as main spokesperson for the group, would view their stay at Motown with a negative slant. However, I do often wish Gladys could, over 40 years later, be more completely positive about their Motown catalogue, and simply let her fans decide on how they feel about it.

Martha Reeves, for example, could also be very negative about aspects of her Motown career, but does not choose to be, which is very wise. If we still enjoy Martha's recordings and stage performances to this day, then so will she. What we have received and maybe still retain in our lives, should be given far more importance than what we feel we've lost, or never had.

And, 'second rate' songs or not, would Gladys & The Pips have been in the position to achieve success with Buddah, if they had not previously recorded for Motown?

I believe Gladys has stated that she never wanted to sign with Motown in the first place, but was outvoted by the Pips.

It's hard not to form the strong impression that Gladys' initial reluctance then went on to influence her whole perception of their work at Motown, and may continue to do so. That's regrettable, if it is at odds with those of us who continue to enjoy her very high quality Motown recordings, to this day.

I very much agree with this. Gladys was given superb material at Motown, and had a series of concept albums and many hits. In contrast, Martha's albums were mostly scrapbooks of sundry recordings put together as Motown saw fit. She really had to fight for material, and releases [[eg Jimmy Mack), deal with the fact that her main hit song-writing team [[HDH) were taken off her, and also handle line-up changes in her group on her own. You can imagine Motown taking a more hands-on supportive role with other acts. Martha got her anger and resentment out of her system in her biography and since then has clearly made it up with Berry Gordy, and others, and is a constant advocate for Motown and the legacy. Gladys would do well to start to do the same. Her time at Motown prepared her for the big league, even if there were even bigger fish to fry at that time. That's show biz.

[Bluebrock]

Bluebrock, I agree, and certainly don't think the group was given second rate songs to record.

It's true that GK&P were given many songs which also went to other acts to record, but which was just the Motown way of operating a recording business.

There were other artists at Motown who were bigger names in the industry before Gladys & The Pips signed for Motown, and continued to be so, and therefore had first call on new, original songs.

Also, Gladys' version of 'I Heard It Through The Grapevine' was indeed topped by Marvin Gaye's version.

I can see several, fully justifiable reasons why Gladys, as main spokesperson for the group, would view their stay at Motown with a negative slant. However, I do often wish Gladys could, over 40 years later, be more completely positive about their Motown catalogue, and simply let her fans decide on how they feel about it.

Martha Reeves, for example, could also be very negative about aspects of her Motown career, but does not choose to be, which is very wise. If we still enjoy Martha's recordings and stage performances to this day, then so will she. What we have received and maybe still retain in our lives, should be given far more importance than what we feel we've lost, or never had.

And, 'second rate' songs or not, would Gladys & The Pips have been in the position to achieve success with Buddah, if they had not previously recorded for Motown?

I believe Gladys has stated that she never wanted to sign with Motown in the first place, but was outvoted by the Pips.

It's hard not to form the strong impression that Gladys' initial reluctance then went on to influence her whole perception of their work at Motown, and may continue to do so. That's regrettable, if it is at odds with those of us who continue to enjoy her very high quality Motown recordings, to this day.

Good points. Back in the 80;s i was in a position to ask Gladys her opinion of the way she was treated at Motown. She smiled politely and said her experiences at Buddah and Columbia were more enjoyable experiences. I think she was still signed to Columbia at this point. I got the impression she did not like Berry Gordy at all!

[midnightman]

Judging on hearing their EARLIEST Motown recordings prior to Grapevine, I see Gladys' point...

Just Walk in My Shoes for example was something Gladys AND the Pips couldn't contend with because Motown included the Andantes in it and to them, that was a no go. Bubba Knight stated in his 2014 interview that they had a meeting with Berry Gordy about that and they told him on no uncertain terms that they did NOT want the Andantes on their recordings.

Bubba admitted Motown treated them like outsiders [[as Gladys feared) and "rebels" for even questioning Berry's direction but Berry allowed GK&TPs full independent reign to do what they wanted. I think BECAUSE of that, Berry was unsure about the group's commercial potential. I mean they WERE signed to Motown's more R&B oriented Soul label.

But "I Heard It Through the Grapevine" was a surprise hit and helped to build their early crossover reputation. I see why Gladys felt slighted though... I mean they were signed in 1966. Gladys expected them to get Holland-Dozier-Holland, much like the Isley Brothers did but HDH had their hands full with Marvin, the Four Tops and the Supremes. That was something that always bothered GK&TPs: why they couldn't get HDH.

So in a sense, you can see why Gladys and 'em [[Bubba, and possibly William) felt they were getting slighted by the material they were given. They felt they deserved better. Norman Whitfield eventually became their answer as soul music began to take over the airwaves by the late '60s and with the Supremes' pop-soul sound out of favor, GK&TPs definitely rose above the competition during that period [[Diana had them kicked out for "being too good" for instance).

I felt their songs should've also been pushed more by Motown. They wanted the NUMBER ONE hit on the pop chart and was denied it twice and came close another time with "If I Were Your Woman". Of course, nowadays, IHITTG, IIWYW and NOOU are viewed as crossover classics but I understood Gladys' earlier issue with Motown.

I feel if Gladys really didn't care for Motown, she wouldn't have sung IHITTG, IIWYW, NOOU, I Don't Want to Do Wrong, etc., at all but she got along with the Motown artists so I doubt that was the case. It was all about business. She hasn't been asked about Motown for YEARS anyway so I imagine if someone did ask her now, she probably would have said she had some great times there and still feel that Motown should've promoted them more. Judging on what they managed to accomplish there [[being on Ed Sullivan more times than MARVIN for instance), I think she would say the Motown days were great in spite of how she felt they were treated at the time.

I also feel Gladys KNOWS her fans love the Motown stuff because if she didn't perform them, they would've thrown eggs at her face even though Midnight Train to Georgia finally gave her the #1 pop hit she was seeking.

[arr&bee]

This song has a sad history for me,I was deeply in love with a sweet girl who loved this song,but she was sadly killed in a car accident and everytime this song plays I turn away from it,yes it is the most beautiful song Gladys has done,but for me the saddest.

[marv2]

Judging on hearing their EARLIEST Motown recordings prior to Grapevine, I see Gladys' point...

Just Walk in My Shoes for example was something Gladys AND the Pips couldn't contend with because Motown included the Andantes in it and to them, that was a no go. Bubba Knight stated in his 2014 interview that they had a meeting with Berry Gordy about that and they told him on no uncertain terms that they did NOT want the Andantes on their recordings.

Bubba admitted Motown treated them like outsiders [[as Gladys feared) and "rebels" for even questioning Berry's direction but Berry allowed GK&TPs full independent reign to do what they wanted. I think BECAUSE of that, Berry was unsure about the group's commercial potential. I mean they WERE signed to Motown's more R&B oriented Soul label.

But "I Heard It Through the Grapevine" was a surprise hit and helped to build their early crossover reputation. I see why Gladys felt slighted though... I mean they were signed in 1966. Gladys expected them to get Holland-Dozier-Holland, much like the Isley Brothers did but HDH had their hands full with Marvin, the Four Tops and the Supremes. That was something that always bothered GK&TPs: why they couldn't get HDH.

So in a sense, you can see why Gladys and 'em [[Bubba, and possibly William) felt they were getting slighted by the material they were given. They felt they deserved better. Norman Whitfield eventually became their answer as soul music began to take over the airwaves by the late '60s and with the Supremes' pop-soul sound out of favor, GK&TPs definitely rose above the competition during that period [[Diana had them kicked out for "being too good" for instance).

I felt their songs should've also been pushed more by Motown. They wanted the NUMBER ONE hit on the pop chart and was denied it twice and came close another time with "If I Were Your Woman". Of course, nowadays, IHITTG, IIWYW and NOOU are viewed as crossover classics but I understood Gladys' earlier issue with Motown.

I feel if Gladys really didn't care for Motown, she wouldn't have sung IHITTG, IIWYW, NOOU, I Don't Want to Do Wrong, etc., at all but she got along with the Motown artists so I doubt that was the case. It was all about business. She hasn't been asked about Motown for YEARS anyway so I imagine if someone did ask her now, she probably would have said she had some great times there and still feel that Motown should've promoted them more. Judging on what they managed to accomplish there [[being on Ed Sullivan more times than MARVIN for instance), I think she would say the Motown days were great in spite of how she felt they were treated at the time.

I also feel Gladys KNOWS her fans love the Motown stuff because if she didn't perform them, they would've thrown eggs at her face even though Midnight Train to Georgia finally gave her the #1 pop hit she was seeking.

Excellent synopsis Midnightman! I am glad you mentioned their issue with having the Andantes water down their unique sound.

[midnightman]

^ Thanks. Yeah, people tend to forget that. There was a REASON for Gladys' bitterness. She knew what Motown was all about... the greatest thing about this though is she did make something out of it. And she turned out to be the greatest female artist Motown produced in my honest opinion in terms of musical style... Motown artists were always scared of performing after them [[which is one reason why BG wanted them in the label in the first place, besides the fact that Maurice King and Cholly Atkins had worked with them before they signed with Motown).

[edafan]

This song is absolutely GREAT


edafan

[Bluebrock]

^ Thanks. Yeah, people tend to forget that. There was a REASON for Gladys' bitterness. She knew what Motown was all about... the greatest thing about this though is she did make something out of it. And she turned out to be the greatest female artist Motown produced in my honest opinion in terms of musical style... Motown artists were always scared of performing after them [[which is one reason why BG wanted them in the label in the first place, besides the fact that Maurice King and Cholly Atkins had worked with them before they signed with Motown).

I agree. Gladys was and remains head and shoulders above every other Motown female singer for pure vocal ability.

[westgrandboulevard]

In a class of her own, and especially when singing ballads......

[BigAl]

The group was lucky to have had this big hit written by Jim Weatherly, and then being able to record "Midnight Train," also a Weatherly composition, over at Buddha as their debut single with that company. This made for an almost seamless transition and yielded them what was arguably their biggest hit. Then, when they moved from Buddha to Columbia, they scored with a third Weatherly song: "You're the Best Thing that Ever Happened to Me." It was fortunate for them that Weatherly apparently was never a staff writer for any particular label.

"Neither One of Us" was indeed prophetic when viewed as the group's goodbye to Hitsville.

[milven]

The group was lucky to have had this big hit written by Jim Weatherly, and then being able to record "Midnight Train," also a Weatherly composition, over at Buddha as their debut single with that company. .. Then, when they moved from Buddha to Columbia, they scored with a third Weatherly song: "You're the Best Thing that Ever Happened to Me." ..l.

Ooops, I know that you know this Al, but maybe too much New Year's celebrating or maybe cabin fever?

But Best Thing That Ever Happened was on their debut Imagination album along with Midnight Train. It was recorded way before they went to Columbia.

Happy and Healthy New Year Al

[Cosmic Truth]

^ Thanks. Yeah, people tend to forget that. There was a REASON for Gladys' bitterness. She knew what Motown was all about... the greatest thing about this though is she did make something out of it. And she turned out to be the greatest female artist Motown produced in my honest opinion in terms of musical style... Motown artists were always scared of performing after them [[which is one reason why BG wanted them in the label in the first place, besides the fact that Maurice King and Cholly Atkins had worked with them before they signed with Motown).

I agree.

In my opinion, she's the best singer I've ever heard. and as such should have been given the best material Motown had to offer.

[BigAl]

Ooops, I know that you know this Al, but maybe too much New Year's celebrating or maybe cabin fever?

But Best Thing That Ever Happened was on their debut Imagination album along with Midnight Train. It was recorded way before they went to Columbia.

Happy and Healthy New Year Al

Of course you're absolutely correct!

[Bluebrock]

I agree.

In my opinion, she's the best singer I've ever heard. and as such should have been given the best material Motown had to offer.

Well said Cosmic Truth. There will never ever be another Gladys.

[MIKEW-UK]

Here's a live version of Neither One Of Us, where Gladys really lights up!

[MIKEW-UK]

Here's the full concert, Bubba joins Gladys on Midnight Train. If you like Gladys, you'll find her on top form and very animated and soulful.

[milven]

Gladys Knight & the Pips have the distinction of being the only Motown artists to have top ten hits before, during and after their Motown years.

[Cosmic Truth]

Well said Cosmic Truth. There will never ever be another Gladys.

I would have loved if Norman Whitfield had done another album with GK&TP before they left Motown, only more along the lines of his early Undisputed Truth material.

The best writer and producer in the business, working with the best singer in the business, what an album that could have been.

Both these claims are just my opinion you understand, and I accept other folk will have their own personal favourites.

P.S. A belated happy new year to everyone on the forum.

[captainjames]

I loved the material Motown did with Gladys Knight and The Pips. I loved HDH but I don't think they needed HDH.

[stingbeelee]

I think that Gladys has gotten over some of the bitterness towards Motown; I was surprised to see her on a TV special with Smokey Robinson singing their Motown hits [[they were almost tagging in each other; one hit after another) and she has toned down the bitterness quite a bit. Their story is 'on the one hand Motown didn't consider us top notch' BUT 'on the other hand, we got international recognition'. Do you think that without signing with Motown, they could have become international superstars? Were they on a label in 1966 [[Maxx?)

[midnightman]

^ They signed with Maxx Records in 1964 [[which was created just for them btw) after, what, three years with Fury? But yeah I have noticed Gladys has tone down the bitterness... matter of fact ever since the biography, she's tone it down a LOT. I do think she's proud of her Motown past.

[Bluebrock]

^ They signed with Maxx Records in 1964 [[which was created just for them btw) after, what, three years with Fury? But yeah I have noticed Gladys has tone down the bitterness... matter of fact ever since the biography, she's tone it down a LOT. I do think she's proud of her Motown past.

So she should be. Lots of great songs came from this period. I think they would have made it big even had they not signed with Motown. Such awesome talent would surely have to eventually break big. I love their Motown years just as I love every phase of their incredible career. Gladys is quite simply the best in my opinion.

[heikki]

Hi!

Just a bit of history...
You can find a scan of her first single at

http://www.soulexpress.net/deep1_2014.htm#gladys

Best regards
Heikki

[sansradio]

Hi!

Just a bit of history...
You can find a scan of her first single at

http://www.soulexpress.net/deep1_2014.htm#gladys

Best regards
Heikki

The title of that flipside, though...WTF?!!??

[milven]

They started their recording career by being ripped off. The Pips [[as they were then named) recorded Every Beat of My Heart for someone who then sold it to Vee-Jay Records but somehow finagled the Pips out of making any money from the record. The Pips cut another version which wound up on Fury, but had to change their name from Pips to Gladys Knight and The Pips. Both versions were being sold side by side in record stores at the time.

They saw how easy it is to get ripped off in the industry right from the beginning of their career but they just did not sit down and feel sorry for themselves. They took the song, re-recorded it and competed against themselves as Gladys Knight and the Pips. I think it is great that a bunch of young singers were able to do that.

And I guess that is why they always stood their ground at Motown and did not let their songs be watered down with Andantes or stick around to be treated as second tier acts

I take issue with them being treated as second tier acts. I saw them at the Copa during their Motown years and they had quite a few hits. I think signing with Motown moved them into the big time. We'll never know if they would have reached big time stardom if they did not sign with Motown, but we do know that they did reach big time stardom after they signed with Motown.

[midnightman]

I think Gladys' anger is towards their FIRST YEARS at Motown mainly [[roughly 1965 through 1967 where they really were treated secondary at Motown). HDH were hot in 1965 but they were always given leftovers. They languished at Motown for a few weeks before Just Walk in My Shoes was released. After their argument with Motown over having the Andantes on their records, they were given more singles, including Take Me In Your Arms and Love Me and Everybody Needs Love, the latter song finally breaking them through in Motown before I Heard It Through the Grapevine blew them up. I still wonder why they were denied the number one slot on the pop chart for that song... but still it became Motown's biggest-selling hit so obviously that should've made Berry Gordy really proud but I guess with Gladys telling it, The Supremes [[and Ms. You Know Who) were his main act.

And yes, despite being one of the acts on Soul Records, they eventually made a successful stint at the Copa: http://www.mcrfb.com/?p=5917

So I do believe they had joined the ranks of the Supremes, Temptations, Martha and the Vandellas, Four Tops and Marvin Gaye.

I think part of the bitterness they felt was MONEY, not necessarily the fact that they did reach commercial acclaim, which Gladys herself has now admitted to, that Motown blew them up. Money was one main reason they eventually split from Motown in January 1973.