Jean Terrell and Motown

[Bokiluis]

Is it necessary to attack someone for stating their point of view? Unfortunately, The Supremes didn't have a great record of selling albums. The charts bare that fact out. Retailers became apprehensive about carrying titles that they have track records of not selling. They only have a certain amount of dollars to invest in inventory.
That said, unless you lived in secondary or tertiary markets, I cannot imagine that it was difficult to find their albums. Of course, if they only carried 4-5 copies, then it is likely that they soldout. Major retailers like Musicland/Sam Goodys were notorious for carrying limited inventory on certain titles. Whereas retailers like Tower, were more likely to have inventory or at least the flexibility of ordering it in quickly if there was demand. The law of supply and demand.
Only someone with poor business acumen would fail to carry something that they had a demand for. If you tended to shop in smaller indie stores, a good retailer could quickly get titles from their local one stop distributors. Larger retailers refilled stock on a cycle.
A good label sales rep also was responsible for sharing information for a retailer to want to carry [[e.g. Radio play, upcoming television appearances and/or concerts).
"Bad Weather" followed "Mary, Sherrie, and Susaye" which had not done that well. Club play was/is hard to quantify.
Living in San Francisco, retailers like Tower, The Gramaphone & Leopolds always had The Supremes albums on street date. I can only speak for the places I shopped.
So unless you surveyed inventory in most markets around the country, how can one ever speak to every market not having stock.
Add in the fact that Motown wasn't the hit factory it was in the 60s, by 1977, Motown's track record just wasn't the same, unfortunately.
Sorry that someone has difficulty hearing facts and opinions that differs from their own.....ces't la vie.

[detmotownguy]

Regarding this mythical "huge promotional push" for High Energy. Scherrie said that she was at a radio station that had been called by a Motown rep and told to stop playing "I'm Gonna Let My Heart Do the Walking" and play Diana Ross instead. That is what Scherrie Payne said. I believe her.

I thought there was a recent vid clip here where Scherrie came right out and said the Sups were not being promoted. It might have been in the last 6 months. I cannot believe she would lie about that. And when there were fans telling the Sups that they cannot find the product, one has to wonder.

[thommg]

"Bad Weather" followed "Mary, Sherrie, and Susaye" which had not done that well.

Bad Weather was waaaaaay before Mary, Scherrie & Susaye, like years before. Perhaps you meant Produced & Arranged by Jimmy Webb?

I agree that retailers will order what will sell. Funny, when the 70's Anthology came out on cd I went to Virgin Records in Times Square to get a copy. I had to ask the guy if they had it. He said, "I just put some out!" He had to go into the back and pull the rest of the copies they had. He said they never expected it to sell so well so they didn't order a lot of copies.

[Bluebrock]

I thought there was a recent vid clip here where Scherrie came right out and said the Sups were not being promoted. It might have been in the last 6 months. I cannot believe she would lie about that. And when there were fans telling the Sups that they cannot find the product, one has to wonder.

There is no reason to disbelieve Scherrie on this. As i said previously Motown UK gave a big promotional push on "high energy" but it all fell on deaf ears. IGLMHDTW did not gain significant airplay due to Mary's ongoing fued with the BBC. It was a superb album that deserved to succeed. By the time "Mary, Scherrie and Susaye" came out Motown UK had lost interest and did not even release a single until the album had been out for a while. I presume Motown USA also gave scant attention to it.
So why did the Motown give up on the Supremes? Diana was hot at the time and they were no competition to her so there must have been another reason?

[midnightman]

I thought there was a recent vid clip here where Scherrie came right out and said the Sups were not being promoted. It might have been in the last 6 months. I cannot believe she would lie about that. And when there were fans telling the Sups that they cannot find the product, one has to wonder.

This flew by some people's heads here. The Supremes weren't given proper promotion after 1970.

[Bluebrock]

Bad Weather was waaaaaay before Mary, Scherrie & Susaye, like years before. Perhaps you meant Produced & Arranged by Jimmy Webb?

I agree that retailers will order what will sell. Funny, when the 70's Anthology came out on cd I went to Virgin Records in Times Square to get a copy. I had to ask the guy if they had it. He said, "I just put some out!" He had to go into the back and pull the rest of the copies they had. He said they never expected it to sell so well so they didn't order a lot of copies.

I think that is what he meant too!!

[Bluebrock]

Bad Weather was waaaaaay before Mary, Scherrie & Susaye, like years before. Perhaps you meant Produced & Arranged by Jimmy Webb?

I agree that retailers will order what will sell. Funny, when the 70's Anthology came out on cd I went to Virgin Records in Times Square to get a copy. I had to ask the guy if they had it. He said, "I just put some out!" He had to go into the back and pull the rest of the copies they had. He said they never expected it to sell so well so they didn't order a lot of copies.

My local independent record store [[now sadly demised) only ordered 1 copy which i bought on the day of release. He ordered another which i promptly bought for a friend, and each time he re-ordered it someone bought it.
Not bad for a rural area not especially close to a City. He told me he didn't really expect it to sell but he had to keep re-ordering it.
On the other hand a now defunkt chain store in the nearest City to me did not even stock it which i found rather dismaying.

[marv2]

There is no reason to disbelieve Scherrie on this. As i said previously Motown UK gave a big promotional push on "high energy" but it all fell on deaf ears. IGLMHDTW did not gain significant airplay due to Mary's ongoing fued with the BBC. It was a superb album that deserved to succeed. By the time "Mary, Scherrie and Susaye" came out Motown UK had lost interest and did not even release a single until the album had been out for a while. I presume Motown USA also gave scant attention to it.
So why did the Motown give up on the Supremes? Diana was hot at the time and they were no competition to her so there must have been another reason?

Yeah, she wanted to use them or their legacy as a tribute part in her act, but she could do that convincingly when the Supremes were still out there putting out records and doing concerts all over the place!

[marv2]

My local independent record store [[now sadly demised) only ordered 1 copy which i bought on the day of release. He ordered another which i promptly bought for a friend, and each time he re-ordered it someone bought it.
Not bad for a rural area not especially close to a City. He told me he didn't really expect it to sell but he had to keep re-ordering it.
On the other hand a now defunkt chain store in the nearest City to me did not even stock it which i found rather dismaying.

I never lived in any rural areas, only cities and you could not find some of their releases in stores of any type.

[marv2]

This flew by some people's heads here. The Supremes weren't given proper promotion after 1970.

It did not fly over mine or any of the Supremes heads......hehehehehehehehe!

[marybrewster]

Can someone shed some light on the Mary, Lynda, Cindy lineup? I know they played a gig in Hawaii [[and maybe a gig at the Copa?), but I don't recall the circumstances of Jean not being there. Had she already left the Supremes, and Cindy was brought in? Was there ever talk of this being a permanent line-up? Or was Jean just ill, and Cindy was filling in?

[marybrewster]

Here's another thought: after Jean left the Supremes, it was about 5 years until she released her solo album. I've read after it was recorded, Jean did little to promote it, perhaps due to "religious" reasons. Does anyone know this as fact? What would have been sacrilegious? Furthermore, it was a few years later that Jean "returned" to the Supremes, this time with Lynda and Scherrie. What changed in that amount of time that she would want to record and tour again? I've always thought her tenure with the FLOs was a shadow of the performer that Jean was capable of being. She comes across cheesy; almost a bit mocking. Like she wanted to be the there, but didn't. Was it about money?

[marv2]

Can someone shed some light on the Mary, Lynda, Cindy lineup? I know they played a gig in Hawaii [[and maybe a gig at the Copa?), but I don't recall the circumstances of Jean not being there. Had she already left the Supremes, and Cindy was brought in? Was there ever talk of this being a permanent line-up? Or was Jean just ill, and Cindy was filling in?

Jean had become "ill".....had one of her "sick attacks" and the show had to go on so they called Cindy who was pregnant to round out the trio for a couple of shows. That is all.

[marv2]

Here's another thought: after Jean left the Supremes, it was about 5 years until she released her solo album. I've read after it was recorded, Jean did little to promote it, perhaps due to "religious" reasons. Does anyone know this as fact? What would have been sacrilegious? Furthermore, it was a few years later that Jean "returned" to the Supremes, this time with Lynda and Scherrie. What changed in that amount of time that she would want to record and tour again? I've always thought her tenure with the FLOs was a shadow of the performer that Jean was capable of being. She comes across cheesy; almost a bit mocking. Like she wanted to be the there, but didn't. Was it about money?

I don't know for sure,but A&M [[Herb Alpert's company) may have wanted to infuse some "disco" into Jean's act as it was the most popular music out at that time and she did not want to do that.

As far as the FLO's , it was about making money.

[Bluebrock]

Here's another thought: after Jean left the Supremes, it was about 5 years until she released her solo album. I've read after it was recorded, Jean did little to promote it, perhaps due to "religious" reasons. Does anyone know this as fact? What would have been sacrilegious? Furthermore, it was a few years later that Jean "returned" to the Supremes, this time with Lynda and Scherrie. What changed in that amount of time that she would want to record and tour again? I've always thought her tenure with the FLOs was a shadow of the performer that Jean was capable of being. She comes across cheesy; almost a bit mocking. Like she wanted to be the there, but didn't. Was it about money?

By the time the FLOS were formed Jean had been out of the business for quite some time. I don't know what prompted her to come out of retirement - money maybe, but Jean never appeared to be motivated by money. Her religious beliefs did cause friction with Mary, but i am not sure if that had anything to do with her departing the FLOS.

[Bluebrock]

Jean had become "ill".....had one of her "sick attacks" and the show had to go on so they called Cindy who was pregnant to round out the trio for a couple of shows. That is all.

Yes, Jean could be difficult but it was by no means on her own. Each Supreme was strong minded and wanted their own way. Mary as the original member naturally saw herself as the leader which of course she was, but without Jean the group would have folded long before they did, and Jean knew that only too well. Cindy felt torn between loyalty to Mary and also realising just how important Jean was to the group. When Lynda joined she took Jean's side which just made the situation worse. With the hits drying up and Motown losing interest it is a wonder Jean stayed as long as she did.

[marv2]

By the time the FLOS were formed Jean had been out of the business for quite some time. I don't know what prompted her to come out of retirement - money maybe, but Jean never appeared to be motivated by money. Her religious beliefs did cause friction with Mary, but i am not sure if that had anything to do with her departing the FLOS.

She left the Flo's because of Lynda and whoever thought it was a good idea to piss Mary Wilson off by releasing CD's by "The Supremes" which were bogus as they were not the Supremes, they were "The FLOS". Jean was not having any of that.

[marv2]

Yes, Jean could be difficult but it was by no means on her own. Each Supreme was strong minded and wanted their own way. Mary as the original member naturally saw herself as the leader which of course she was, but without Jean the group would have folded long before they did, and Jean knew that only too well. Cindy felt torn between loyalty to Mary and also realising just how important Jean was to the group. When Lynda joined she took Jean's side which just made the situation worse. With the hits drying up and Motown losing interest it is a wonder Jean stayed as long as she did.

What I posted was in response to MaryBrewster's question and it is factual and true!

[Bluebrock]

She left the Flo's because of Lynda and whoever thought it was a good idea piss Mary Wilson off by releasing CD's by "The Supremes" which were bogus as they were not the Supremes, they were "The FLOS".

I totally agree with you on that one .

[marybrewster]

I totally agree with you on that one .

I have seen "Supremes" CD's with Mary, Scherrie and Susaye on the cover, and it's an actual FLOs CD. That would piss me off if I were Mary, or even Susaye.

[Roberta75]

Here's another thought: after Jean left the Supremes, it was about 5 years until she released her solo album. I've read after it was recorded, Jean did little to promote it, perhaps due to "religious" reasons. Does anyone know this as fact? What would have been sacrilegious? Furthermore, it was a few years later that Jean "returned" to the Supremes, this time with Lynda and Scherrie. What changed in that amount of time that she would want to record and tour again? I've always thought her tenure with the FLOs was a shadow of the performer that Jean was capable of being. She comes across cheesy; almost a bit mocking. Like she wanted to be the there, but didn't. Was it about money?

Isnt everything about money Marybrewster. Jean came back to the FLOS for money and Mary Wilson appeared in a bill in the UK with fake thirty something years old Drifters and Diane Ross performed at Naomi Cambells boyfriends birthday in India for a million dollars. Everyone motivated by money really including politicianns and some televangelistts like Joel oilsteen.

Ive also been told that Jean had a real big issue with Gay fans because of her Jehovah witness beliefs which made me real dissapointed with her? Sad but apparently true.

happy new year dear.

yours, with every good wish.

Roberta

[marv2]

I have seen "Supremes" CD's with Mary, Scherrie and Susaye on the cover, and it's an actual FLOs CD. That would piss me off if I were Mary, or even Susaye.

Exactly! In the 90s I saw CD's that had pictures of Diana Ross, Mary Wilson and Florence Ballard on the cover. When you played it, it was a grouping of the FLOS.

[marv2]

Isnt everything about money Marybrewster. Jean came back to the FLOS for money and Mary Wilson appeared in a bill in the UK with fake thirty something years old Drifters and Diane Ross performed at Naomi Cambells boyfriends birthday in India for a million dollars. Everyone motivated by money really including politicianns and some televangelistts like Joel oilsteen.

Ive also been told that Jean had a real big issue with Gay fans because of her Jehovah witness beliefs which made me real dissapointed with her? Sad but apparently true.

happy new year dear.

yours, with every good wish.

Roberta

Not true! Jean Terrell never returned to the FLOS. She performed two shows with them in 1996 to raise funds for their legal defense against legal action brought by Mary Wilson. Mary Wilson did not want to sue Jean Terrell but was forced to include her in a lawsuit against "The FLOS". Jean did not want and had not bargain for any type of fights with Mary Wilson when she joined the FLOS originally and dropped out when she saw where things were heading. Despite what may have went down in the past, Jean Terrell and Mary Wilson were friends. I don't know where the gay fan stuff comes into this discussion so I cannot comment on that Roberta.

Jean had attitude, but she also had integrity, which is what drove her away from the FLOS and the business in general.

[TheMotownManiac]

The Supremes were never making it bigger than Diana. That's a myth Mary started but is not really true. I used to believe it, but now with everything on the net, the truth is out there. Certain, specific facts can be manipulated to look the way Mary suggested, but on Record World and Cash Box which were based solely on sales and not airplay [[like Billboard) the story is different and sales is where the labels were concentrating. Both acts did very well that first year and both slipped the next, however The Supremes had a hit and Diana didn't. Diana's albums always did significantly better even though they didn't have as many familiar songs. The Supremes were all over TV. The point is one act was not bigger than the other by any sizable margin until Lady sings The Blues. Even then, and by then, they were two separate type of acts that weren't even in similar catagories. No one was comparing them. No one cared who was bigger - not even Motown cared. Berry was going to make her a movie star. Very little effort was put into her records until after lady. In spring of '69, DR&TS sold out 16,000 plus at St Louis arena. A year later, both acts were playing teeny Mill Run in Chicago instead with a comic opening. The next time The Supremes came to Mill Run they were promoting Nathan Jones on a split headline bill with Ray Charles.
Motown released 3 "OK" studio albums on Diana - each with a bright spot or two. In the same time that they released 8 "OK - Good" studio albums on The Supremes.
Much has been written about the competitive nature of Diana and Mary during the 60's and it's obvious that Mary felt the need to qualify Diana's success as well as the fate of The 70's Supremes in her favor with excuses such as treachery. I no longer believe it.

[TheMotownManiac]

Isn't that illegal? I'd sue if I were DMF and FLO voices were used.

[midnightman]

It did not fly over mine or any of the Supremes heads......hehehehehehehehe!

Yeah I know. The real Supremes fans know the deal. But others are confused, I think... the Supremes were supposed to be "over" when Diana left. Oops lol

[marv2]

The Supremes were never making it bigger than Diana. That's a myth Mary started but is not really true. I used to believe it, but now with everything on the net, the truth is out there. Certain, specific facts can be manipulated to look the way Mary suggested, but on Record World and Cash Box which were based solely on sales and not airplay [[like Billboard) the story is different and sales is where the labels were concentrating. Both acts did very well that first year and both slipped the next, however The Supremes had a hit and Diana didn't. Diana's albums always did significantly better even though they didn't have as many familiar songs. The Supremes were all over TV. The point is one act was not bigger than the other by any sizable margin until Lady sings The Blues. Even then, and by then, they were two separate type of acts that weren't even in similar catagories. No one was comparing them. No one cared who was bigger - not even Motown cared. Berry was going to make her a movie star. Very little effort was put into her records until after lady. In spring of '69, DR&TS sold out 16,000 plus at St Louis arena. A year later, both acts were playing teeny Mill Run in Chicago instead with a comic opening. The next time The Supremes came to Mill Run they were promoting Nathan Jones on a split headline bill with Ray Charles.
Motown released 3 "OK" studio albums on Diana - each with a bright spot or two. In the same time that they released 8 "OK - Good" studio albums on The Supremes.
Much has been written about the competitive nature of Diana and Mary during the 60's and it's obvious that Mary felt the need to qualify Diana's success as well as the fate of The 70's Supremes in her favor with excuses such as treachery. I no longer believe it.

Not true! The Supremes were scoring more on the charts than Diana Ross in the initial years after their separation.

[midnightman]

The Supremes were never making it bigger than Diana. That's a myth Mary started but is not really true. I used to believe it, but now with everything on the net, the truth is out there. Certain, specific facts can be manipulated to look the way Mary suggested, but on Record World and Cash Box which were based solely on sales and not airplay [[like Billboard) the story is different and sales is where the labels were concentrating. Both acts did very well that first year and both slipped the next, however The Supremes had a hit and Diana didn't. Diana's albums always did significantly better even though they didn't have as many familiar songs. The Supremes were all over TV. The point is one act was not bigger than the other by any sizable margin until Lady sings The Blues. Even then, and by then, they were two separate type of acts that weren't even in similar catagories. No one was comparing them. No one cared who was bigger - not even Motown cared. Berry was going to make her a movie star. Very little effort was put into her records until after lady. In spring of '69, DR&TS sold out 16,000 plus at St Louis arena. A year later, both acts were playing teeny Mill Run in Chicago instead with a comic opening. The next time The Supremes came to Mill Run they were promoting Nathan Jones on a split headline bill with Ray Charles.
Motown released 3 "OK" studio albums on Diana - each with a bright spot or two. In the same time that they released 8 "OK - Good" studio albums on The Supremes.
Much has been written about the competitive nature of Diana and Mary during the 60's and it's obvious that Mary felt the need to qualify Diana's success as well as the fate of The 70's Supremes in her favor with excuses such as treachery. I no longer believe it.

Well to be frank, Motown did diddly squat for many of its female performers after 1970. Martha left, the Marvelettes dissipated, the Supremes were the only real survivors and even then there was difficulty ahead. By 1972, Motown was dominated by two men: Marvin Gaye and Stevie Wonder.

PLUS, the Supremes had more top forty hits than Diana did in the early '70s. Her album sales weren't real stellar either. Only her self titled debut sold a million copies. Her Billie Holiday soundtrack pulled more units but Motown wasn't promoting her albums that much because the attention had went to her TV and film work.

[marv2]

Yeah I know. The real Supremes fans know the deal. But others are confused, I think... the Supremes were supposed to be "over" when Diana left. Oops lol

Yeah, that was the unspoken [[publicly) plan! But the public still wanted them. They still do today.

[daviddh]

anyone know why cindy did not stay with flos???

[daviddh]

didn't Motown really give up on nearly everyone. Steve and smokey wrote they own stuff and Diana managed a hit or two every other year but mostly [[everyone )began jumping ship

[marv2]

anyone know why cindy did not stay with flos???

They had formed the FLOS around the same time as Cindy embarking on a solo career.

[midnightman]

didn't Motown really give up on nearly everyone. Steve and smokey wrote they own stuff and Diana managed a hit or two every other year but mostly [[everyone )began jumping ship

Yeah they did because none of the groups were doing great either after 1972. The Temptations, Jackson 5, etc., faltered. Gladys and them left at the right time, I have to say!

[marv2]

Yeah they did because none of the groups were doing great either after 1972. The Temptations, Jackson 5, etc., faltered. Gladys and them left at the right time, I have to say!

Just before them, the Spinners left.

[midnightman]

Just before them, the Spinners left.

Yep, the Spinners got the heck out of Dodge with the quickness!

[marv2]

Yep, the Spinners got the heck out of Dodge with the quickness!

It was all very sad to me. I remember for a time it seemed like every week when I would open Jet Magazine another of the Motown artists were leaving the company. This went on through to the early 80s when Marvin and Diane left. Heck, even the Miracles left after scoring a #1 million seller with Billy Griffin!

[Bokiluis]

Bad Weather was waaaaaay before Mary, Scherrie & Susaye, like years before. Perhaps you meant Produced & Arranged by Jimmy Webb?

I agree that retailers will order what will sell. Funny, when the 70's Anthology came out on cd I went to Virgin Records in Times Square to get a copy. I had to ask the guy if they had it. He said, "I just put some out!" He had to go into the back and pull the rest of the copies they had. He said they never expected it to sell so well so they didn't order a lot of copies.

My bad. Chalk it up to the early signs of as$heimers��. And you're right, if buyer/clerk wasn't on top of their game.....sometimes they weren't proactive in keeping up inventory. Pre-Soundscan,the singles buyer at Tower Sunset sometimes wouldn't report accurate sales to Billboard if a fan bought multiple copies of the same singles. Of course if it was a favorite act of his, he was notorious for actually doing the opposite. Soundscan certainly helped retailers keep better track of inventory. Lots of games were played by Billboard reporters, pre-Soundscan. For instance, Virgin wanted to insure that Janet Jackson's "Again" to be a #1 single; therefore, they persuaded retailers to sell the CD single for 99cents. This made Billboard change the rules that a single that was sold below the wholesale price, would not be reported. This caused a minor industry scandal.

[Jimi LaLumia]

you don't even want to know the post Soundscan games... I'm saving all THAT for my book.. I was a Billboard reporter pre AND post Soundscan..

[Bokiluis]

Minor scandals were not only endemic to the music business. Often movie ticket sales were switched to reflect what movie a film studio wanted as a priority.
As talented as Jean Terrell was, A&M was never a strong label for black artists. They didn't seem to know how to market her solo album....was it R&B or Pop or both? Therefore that album got lost in the hitherlands.
Berry Gordy made "Where Did Our Love Go" a multi-format priority. Despite "When the Lovelight Shining" peaked at #2/R&B. The single was sent to R&B and Pop stations simultaneously.
Not sure if "Bad Weather" was treated the same. The Supremes were no longer a sure bet at pop radio by its release. And The Supremes releases often performed better at pop radio.
"Please refrain from attacking me for my observations. I remain a Supremes fan through the life of their chart career. Being a chart junkie, this is only my observation and opinion. The last time I checked, we all are entitled to our own opinions".

[Bokiluis]

The Supremes were never making it bigger than Diana. That's a myth Mary started but is not really true. I used to believe it, but now with everything on the net, the truth is out there. Certain, specific facts can be manipulated to look the way Mary suggested, but on Record World and Cash Box which were based solely on sales and not airplay [[like Billboard) the story is different and sales is where the labels were concentrating. Both acts did very well that first year and both slipped the next, however The Supremes had a hit and Diana didn't. Diana's albums always did significantly better even though they didn't have as many familiar songs. The Supremes were all over TV. The point is one act was not bigger than the other by any sizable margin until Lady sings The Blues. Even then, and by then, they were two separate type of acts that weren't even in similar catagories. No one was comparing them. No one cared who was bigger - not even Motown cared. Berry was going to make her a movie star. Very little effort was put into her records until after lady. In spring of '69, DR&TS sold out 16,000 plus at St Louis arena. A year later, both acts were playing teeny Mill Run in Chicago instead with a comic opening. The next time The Supremes came to Mill Run they were promoting Nathan Jones on a split headline bill with Ray Charles.
Motown released 3 "OK" studio albums on Diana - each with a bright spot or two. In the same time that they released 8 "OK - Good" studio albums on The Supremes.
Much has been written about the competitive nature of Diana and Mary during the 60's and it's obvious that Mary felt the need to qualify Diana's success as well as the fate of The 70's Supremes in her favor with excuses such as treachery. I no longer believe it.

Well stated!

[Bokiluis]

you don't even want to know the post Soundscan games... I'm saving all THAT for my book.. I was a Billboard reporter pre AND post Soundscan..

Trust and believe. Having worked for arguably the #1 label of the late 80s and 90s, I had a pretty solid perspective from the manufacturers point of view. Being extremely supportive of the single as a key marketing tool, there was quite a lot to gossip about on Monday and Tuesday's.

"And I did say "arguably" the #1 label based on marketshare. Interscope my beg to differ.....but, once again the numbers told the story".

"Cannot wait to read your book. Please hurry as today's generation has little idea of how essential the music industry before the original Napster came in like a tsunami.
There hasn't been a definitive book released since "#1 with a Bullet"[[?) was released.....and that one left a lot to be desired. [[Though "And Party Everyday", the story of Casablanca was quite entertaining, funny and scandalous).

[luke]

Motown got quite panicky in 1970...well documented. The Supremes were a smash. Sell out performances. Berry had to hand out torn $50 bills to get people to Diana's first solo gig. One writer said basically how would it look for Berry if the center piece for his plans didn't do as well as the group she came from!!

[TheMotownManiac]

I think way too much emphasis is placed on Ross. Flo wasn't moved to the bg, she was in the bg a lot from the beginning. At age 16, The primettes first sides went to Mary & Diana. I agree with their choices. Flo was special but I don't think her leads were anything to worry Diana or Mary. She sang People over a thousand times and not once have I ever heard critics or audiences say they wanted to hear more. Gordy was never into Flo's voice as he wanted a commercial crossover voice, not a big soprano. Flo could outsing many at Motown as far as volume went, but Diana, Mary, Martha, Mary Wells, Kim, Brenda, Wanda and both Gladyses were stronger vocalists. I know it's sacrilege to speak of Flo like this, but, I don't think anyone was afraid of being eclipsed by Flo. There are thousands of singers - better than Flo that never eclipsed Diana who is now a beloved icon even though there are "better" singers. Mary Wilson has had a marvelous career that began with nothing after 1977 - a career Flo never would have had if she lived. If Motown or Diana was afraid of Jean eclipsing her, they wouldn't have her on TV all the time singing her hits. If Gordy wanted The Supremes to die, he'd have given them bad material, a bad act and no TV while sending Up the Ladder, Stoned Love and Nathan to Ross. It doesn't add up. I think BG had every intention of making money off of both acts. I think he was so stricken by Diana that no one posed a threat and, after Lady, no one could have. Aretha, Natalie, Gladys, Donna all had huge careers that did nothing to diminish Ross' . She has her fans.

I didn't even know the Supremes had a new album out when I stumbled on the he's my man album In a local record store. Diana Ross caused a lot of trouble in the group but Motown didn't stop supporting them then. Motown blew New Ways by that title and the silly pics. If it had been called Stoned Love with the the back cover pic on front it would have sold many more as Mary has said . Motown/BG just did not want the Supremes to eclipse Diana. Look how Florence was moved to background. Why should another replacement be any different?

[Roberta75]

Motown got quite panicky in 1970...well documented. The Supremes were a smash. Sell out performances. Berry had to hand out torn $50 bills to get people to Diana's first solo gig. One writer said basically how would it look for Berry if the center piece for his plans didn't do as well as the group she came from!!

It was $20 bills that Berry tore in half my dear and Diane Ross had never looked back from that first solo show. Diane and Mary and Sherrie and Lynda and Susaye are all still putting on shows and all are doing real well but you love to carp on and on and on about cr*p that may or may not have happen darned near 50 years ago smh and lol.

[marv2]

you don't even want to know the post Soundscan games... I'm saving all THAT for my book.. I was a Billboard reporter pre AND post Soundscan..

Give just a small hint, please.........

[marv2]

It was $20 bills that Berry tore in half my dear and Diane Ross had never looked back from that first solo show. Diane and Mary and Sherrie and Lynda and Susaye are all still putting on shows and all are doing real well but you love to carp on and on and on about cr*p that may or may not have happen darned near 50 years ago smh and lol.

FYI Roberta, when you are discussing Motown Records [[the one Berry Gordy Jr. founded) and it's artists, 80% of what will be discussed happened decades ago! If you prefer not to join in the conversations about music, people and events that occurred sometimes nearly 50 years ago, then don't. We are going to continue whether you like it or not. I will not miss you since you contribute little to nothing to these threads.

[marv2]

Motown got quite panicky in 1970...well documented. The Supremes were a smash. Sell out performances. Berry had to hand out torn $50 bills to get people to Diana's first solo gig. One writer said basically how would it look for Berry if the center piece for his plans didn't do as well as the group she came from!!

This is very true. He was desperate after taking such a big gamble with splitting up one of his top acts.

[midnightman]

I don't get this revisionist history: Diana was struggling for much of 1970. That's just a fact. The Supremes were doing way better than her with Jean there. I mean if we're gonna be honest about the situation, let's be honest. I also feel had Motown not made any error in releasing "Stone Love" as "STONED Love", they would've been on Sullivan to promote it... I feel it was much later [[like right around the time Jean left) that the group really struggled with promotion and retail. The music industry is a very funny business and no one makes it out unscathed. I'm sure Jean herself has horror stories about it.

[TheMotownManiac]

It is extremely well documented that all of those labels were created for divergent originations so that it didn't look like Motown was taking over. It had absolutely nothing at all to do with Diana Ross. I'm astounded at how much some people think Ross figured into everything. The Supremes had no contract when Jean left and it was over a year until it got done, so they recorded nothing. By the time High Energy came out, Motown had Stevie, Marvin and The Commodores doing good business, Ross doing spotty business and everyone else not bringing much as The Tempts and J5 planned their exits. Motown NEEDED The Supremes to try to undo some of the red ink.

Being a Diana Ross fan, I can say that you are RIGHT. Motown did everything they could do to stop the Supremes [[and everyone else) from taking away from Diana Ross. That was why Berry created all those labels so attention could be given but not to the degree that Diana got because she was on the "main label" rather than a subsidiary like Tamla, Gordy or Soul. Motown definitely gave someone preferential treatment. It's not a slight against Diana, that's just how the company was run by the mid-1970s... they purposely stopped promoting the Supremes after a certain point. I, myself, growing up as a Motown fan had no idea about any Supremes hits after Stoned Love until high school! Lol

[TheMotownManiac]

Billboard is Sales & Airplay. Cash Box & RW sales only.
Let's look at the charts for 1970.

Billboard/Cash Box/Record World[

Up The Ladder 10 9 7
Reach Out 20 10 9

Everybody 21 14 13
Ain't 1 1 1

Stoned Love 7 5 5
Remember Me 16 10 8

Right On 25
Diana Ross 18

New Ways 68
Everything Is 42

If You Add Four Tops Duet:
River Deep 14 15 12

Mag 7 116

As you see, it's hardly a slam dunk for either on singles. Ross sold more LPs.

In 1971, The Supremes had a hit and two flops, while Ross had 3 flops but all charted higher tha The Supremes' flops. Again Ross' LP sales were much stronger.

The point is that neither act was a threat to the other or making the other look bad, so Mary's assertion that The Supremes had to be reeled in to keep them from humiliating Ross is a bit of a stretch. It was nearly 2 years after Surrender flopped before Ross got another pop record out, while The Supremes worked with three new producers and kept releasing new material. Clearly the rivalry was only in someone's head.