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  1. #51
    huntergettingcaptured Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by robb_k View Post
    Attachment 10462

    To me, most of the Golden World/Ric Tic, Solid Hitbound/Groovsville, Thelma, Correc-Tone cuts [[and those are the major labels that sounded most like Motown) did NOT sound fully like Motown, due to lacking one or two or three of its elements. To me, Golden World and Solid Hitbound recordings didn't has as "full" a sound as Motown. They sounded more "hollow", or "tinny".
    Oh, this is THE discussion I've been waiting for as long as I have been collecting Motown as a teen in 70's. I never could pin it down, but I could ALWAYS tell a Motown record from any other record company's output. Was it the bass? The Tambourines? The guitars? I don't know but I recall a station having a Motown weekend, back in '77 or '78. They were playing a huge amount of 60's Motown along with other classic 60's soul records. It was almost spooky, but even with never having heard about 99% of the records, I could tell within the first several seconds if I was hearing a Motown record or not. There was just SOMETHING in the sound. I had my tape recorder on standby all weekend and I recorded only the Motown tunes. As I got to know the artists and songs, it turns out I was right in every song I picked.

    Robb, your posts nailed it for me. The Motown Sound has as much to do with the engineering and acoustics of The Snakepit [[in particular) as it did with the Funk Brothers' peerless music tracks. The first time that thought occurred to me was when I bought The Monitors' "Greetings" album. I was listening to the song "Time Is Passin' By" and I remember being just fixated on how good that song sounded. Not just the singing and music, but it was the WAY everything was mixed, so bell-clear, precise and exact. I kept playing that song over and over, noticing how the guitars sounded. I thought that was the sound of someone who is more of a tech, than a producer. It was only years later that I learned how Motown used engineers to mix those singles and albums and the use of EQ, compression and so on. BINGO.

    You write about how the recordings of Golden World don't have as "full" of a sound as Motown's recordings. Another BINGO. I too would wonder what was it about Motown that their recordings had such a punch and rounded sound. Even when the recordings were sparsely populated with few instruments [["Where Did Our Love Go") the sound never came off as an unfinished recording. Also, I find in some of the Golden World recordings an almost "rushed" sound where all the instruments aren't completely in sync or in as tight a rhythmic pocket as at Motown.

    There are some amazing Golden World recordings, like the first San Remo Strings album, Laura Lee's "To Win Your Love," Edwin Starr's recordings, but there is still just that something that to my ears, tells me it was not recorded at Hitsville. The only tune that totally fooled me was Edwin's "Stop Her On Sight [[SOS)" Granted, it may have used the Funk Brothers, but more than that, it has a completely Motown sound from the technical end. When I found out it was a Golden World recording, I was really shocked.

    One song that has me scratching my head is by the Shangri-Las- "Right Now And Not Later." Hearing it, I thought it must have been recorded in Detroit, maybe at Golden World or another Detroit studio and then sent to New York/Red Bird for the group. It has a decidedly Detroit sound, even maybe a Motown Sound.

    What a great thread!

  2. #52
    huntergettingcaptured Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by marv2 View Post
    Two words.........................Cool Jerk! by the Capitals.
    The two Capitals albums are full of some very good music. Not all of it a carbon-copy of the Motown Sound, but a few are definitely in that mode, and very good. One tune, "It's Goo-Ga-Loo Time" is really fantastic.

  3. #53
    huntergettingcaptured Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by sansradio View Post
    Exhibit 2 [[note the bridge @ 1:55):

    Man, this is really good. I like that sort of driving-but-loping drumming. The fuzz guitar is excellent. Vocals are great too. I think that a lot of times, these producers were going for that Motown sound, and in aiming for that groove, a lot of good tunes came about.

  4. #54
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    For many in the UK, "Stop Her On Sight" became part of what defined The Motown Sound because it was re-issued on Tamla Motown towards the end of 1968, becoming a top 20 hit. As a result it was also included in the top selling Motown Chartbusters Volume 3 LP in 1969, which possibly defined The Motown Sound for the whole of the UK thereafter. At that time, it was also rapidly followed by a real Motown Edwin Starr hit, "25 Miles".

    SOS, however, sounds more Ric Tic to my ears, especially with the slightly bassier snare drum sound and also that other percussion instrument that plays on the 2nd and 4th beats of each bar and that sounds like some sort of block being whacked with huge enthusiasm. That isn't a sound that I've ever heard on a Motown track, but I have heard it on other pre-Motown Edwin Starr tracks such as "Agent Double O Soul".

    The sax on SOS, however, could have come straight out of The Snakepit.

  5. #55
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    Dennis, did you also play on David Ruffin's "My Whole World Ended"? Did you catch CKWW's birthday tribute to you last week?

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sotosound View Post
    SOS, however, sounds more Ric Tic to my ears, especially with the slightly bassier snare drum sound and also that other percussion instrument that plays on the 2nd and 4th beats of each bar and that sounds like some sort of block being whacked with huge enthusiasm. That isn't a sound that I've ever heard on a Motown track, but I have heard it on other pre-Motown Edwin Starr tracks such as "Agent Double O Soul".

    The sax on SOS, however, could have come straight out of The Snakepit.
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    That's probably because it was Mike Terry on both that cut and at Motown for many of 1962-early 1965 cuts.

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by robb_k View Post
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    That's probably because it was Mike Terry on both that cut and at Motown for many of 1962-early 1965 cuts.
    Hmmm.

    So if Mike was only with Motown through until early '65, who plays sax on tracks such as "This Old Heart Of Mine" by The Isley Brothers?

    I ask this because whoever it is plays in a very similar style, as is very clear on the remix of this track found in The Motown Box, wherein every note on the sax played is right up front on the LH channel rather than being submerged in the mix until the short solo in the instrumental break, as was the case on the original mixes, especially the original single mix.

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sotosound View Post
    Hmmm.

    So if Mike was only with Motown through until early '65, who plays sax on tracks such as "This Old Heart Of Mine" by The Isley Brothers?

    I ask this because whoever it is plays in a very similar style, as is very clear on the remix of this track found in The Motown Box, wherein every note on the sax played is right up front on the LH channel rather than being submerged in the mix until the short solo in the instrumental break, as was the case on the original mixes, especially the original single mix.
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    I think by personal choice, so he could produce as a free-lancer, Mike rejected Berry Gordy's offer to go on salary, and I guess he continued to do some session work with Motown even after he started producing sessions outside Motown.

    But, Motown did have other sax players during their formative and early classical years. Beans Bowles was the first - from 1959-62 or so. I don't know who the others were.

  9. #59
    Only just picked up this great thread. Some really interesting comments, and I find it interesting to know what Motown tracks were not recorded at Studio A, some of the tracks on the Monitors album don't sound like that, perhaps they were recorded over at Golden World, or at least the backing tracks? Then there's all the tracks not recorded in Detroit, I'm not talking about Brenda Holloway LA sessions, but odd tracks by the Supremes and the Miracles where they must have had a 'hot' track while touring and couldn't wait to get back to Detroit.

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    We need Mike McLean or Bob Ohlsson or Russ Terrana to comment on this. But I think it had not only to do with the engineering [[mixing-equalisation and compression), and room acoustics, but also that Motown used duplicate musicians, often using 2 drummers, several guitarists, big horn and string sections [[which "filled in the 'holes' " between the featured individual instruments. You might wonder is that great drummer Benny Benjamin doing ALL THAT, and it might have been Benny, AND Pistol, or Uriel.

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    I always thought The O'Jays I Dig Your Act was very Motown. Produced by ex Motown Composer and Producer George Kerr in Broadway Studios, New York in 1967......

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    Quote Originally Posted by MIKEW-UK View Post
    I always thought The O'Jays I Dig Your Act was very Motown. Produced by ex Motown Composer and Producer George Kerr in Broadway Studios, New York in 1967......
    They blocked it so I can watch it Mike. Darn it!

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    [QUOTE=marv2;333678]They blocked it so I can watch it Mike. Darn it![/QUOTE

    This might work


  14. #64
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    Try this one Marv...


  15. #65
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    Marv, John's link is the best sounding... Cheers both!

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    Quote Originally Posted by MIKEW-UK View Post
    Try this one Marv...

    Still says the video contains content from SME who has blocked it in your country on copyright grounds. Thanks Mike anyway.

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    Also by The Whatnauts on Stang out of Englewood, New Jersey....produced by ....George Kerr


  18. #68
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    Did John's link work?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MIKEW-UK View Post
    Did John's link work?
    No Mike sorry still says the video contains content from SME who has blocked it in your country on copyright grounds. Thanks Mike anyway

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    All, I must say that I was confused at one time until my Uncle Al Kent finished his book, "Custodians of the Hummingbird" that depicted the real sound, "Detroit Sound" . You can purchase the book on Amazon and friend Al Kent on Facebook. The book will answer a lot of questions you may not have the answer too.

  21. #71
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    Since the 1980s, Detroit has also been the home of Techno/Electronic music. some of best has come out of Detroit.
    Last edited by marv2; 06-30-2018 at 09:47 PM.

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  23. #73
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    This has the Detroit Sound all over it, but it is not a Motown Record:


  24. #74
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    Rob, if I remember correctly, George McGregor played drums on Cool Jerk.

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    HDH used Tera Shirma exclusively after leaving Motown. They proposed buying the studio from me. They liked what they were getting out of the studio.

  26. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by ralpht View Post
    HDH used Tera Shirma exclusively after leaving Motown. They proposed buying the studio from me. They liked what they were getting out of the studio.
    I wish they'd stayed there......

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    John, While HDH was going through their legal hassles with Motown, They booked studio time under the name Stagecoach Productions. Eddy Holland would approach me about buying the Studio B. Construction was in final stages and business was booming so I hit him with a rather high number, not really all that interested in selling. They passed on the proposal and ended up building their own studios.

  28. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by ralpht View Post
    John, While HDH was going through their legal hassles with Motown, They booked studio time under the name Stagecoach Productions. Eddy Holland would approach me about buying the Studio B. Construction was in final stages and business was booming so I hit him with a rather high number, not really all that interested in selling. They passed on the proposal and ended up building their own studios.
    Ralph, would you recall where [[location wise) did the Hollands end up?

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    Marv, if my memory is intact, I believe they relocated Invictus Records at the old Tower Theater in Detroit. Can't quite recall the location, but they built their own studios there. Just checked it out, Marv. The theater is located on Grand River, in Detroit.
    Last edited by ralpht; 07-03-2018 at 05:35 PM.

  30. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by ralpht View Post
    Marv, if my memory is intact, I believe they relocated Invictus Records at the old Tower Theater in Detroit. Can't quite recall the location, but they built their own studios there. Just checked it out, Marv. The theater is located on Grand River, in Detroit.
    Grand River, ok gotcha. I have an idea where they were in that area. Thanks Ralph!

  31. #81
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    Here's the old Tower Theater on Grand River, probably closer to it's hey day:

    Attachment 14389

  32. #82
    In making the distinction between "The Detroit Sound" and "The Motown Sound" it's interesting to note that Motown was billing itself as "The Detroit Sound" in '65 on their rear album jackets, then later as "The Motown Sound".

    So even considering differing regional sounds, was it Motown itself that coined THE DETROIT SOUND designation?

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    Quote Originally Posted by WaitingWatchingLookingForAChance View Post
    In making the distinction between "The Detroit Sound" and "The Motown Sound" it's interesting to note that Motown was billing itself as "The Detroit Sound" in '65 on their rear album jackets, then later as "The Motown Sound".

    So even considering differing regional sounds, was it Motown itself that coined THE DETROIT SOUND designation?
    I know it was my friend Al Abrams that coined "The Sound of Young America" for Motown!

  34. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by marv2 View Post
    I know it was my friend Al Abrams that coined "The Sound of Young America" for Motown!
    I've always thought that was sheer brilliance. I was a kid and saw that slogan and thought it was the greatest thing in the world. And no other record company had such a slogan as cool as that one.

    I'm laughing because I'd sit and listen to my Motown albums and I'd take out all the covers and practically study them. I did an art project in my sophomore year of high school and designed a Motown album cover and I made sure to put "THE MOTOWN SOUND" triangle on the rear jacket as well as the "Young America" slogan at the bottom.

    I got an A+!

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    Quote Originally Posted by WaitingWatchingLookingForAChance View Post
    I've always thought that was sheer brilliance. I was a kid and saw that slogan and thought it was the greatest thing in the world. And no other record company had such a slogan as cool as that one.

    I'm laughing because I'd sit and listen to my Motown albums and I'd take out all the covers and practically study them. I did an art project in my sophomore year of high school and designed a Motown album cover and I made sure to put "THE MOTOWN SOUND" triangle on the rear jacket as well as the "Young America" slogan at the bottom.

    I got an A+!
    That is a great story. I remember drawing a few of my favorite Motown covers back in the day.

  36. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by marv2 View Post
    That is a great story. I remember drawing a few of my favorite Motown covers back in the day.
    I'm sure nobody at Motown had any idea just how much of an influence everything they did had on a lot of us!

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