"Partners buried" per Scbherrie and Susaye

[luke]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DcpBl2HFbug...and they discuss the Supremes and the S supergroup. Does anyone know why they think Partners was " buried"?

[carole cucumber]

Susaye has posted here often. Why not ask her?

[jobeterob]

This is good.

[marv2]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DcpBl2HFbug...and they discuss the Supremes and the S supergroup. Does anyone know why they think Partners was " buried"?

Because Motown was not serious about any of the Supremes after Diane left the group. How else can you explain that amount of neglect for all of those gloriously talented women?

[luke]

Oh ok. Though IMO those albums[[ including Mary's) weren't as stellar as I had hoped for.

[BayouMotownMan]

I'd like to add another tidbit if I may about the Partners lp.

Aside from the politics [[and there was a lot of that), by the time this and the Mary Wilson lp was released Motown was swimming in red. The two or three years prior were very dry for Motown and Berry invested in The Wiz which failed along with other debts that Gordy wrote about in his book. Motown had lost a lot of power in the record industry during this time.

Budgets were slashed. There was virtually no money available to establish new artists and Scherrie, Susaye and Mary were basically new artists outside of the Supremes. The Supremes died a quiet death in the US, had some fanfare overseas but that was about it. Had that last lp done as well as High Energy, things could have been different.

Motown spent a fortune settling lawsuits in order to kill The Supremes and that factored into this as well. Whatever enthusiasm Gordy or dePasse had for this project was buried over money issues. While Mary's lp got some distribution, Partners did not. Most fans had to special order the album.

The material is great but the major complaint is that the lp was uneven as Billboard said. It was not a true duet lp. As I recall the ladies share vocals on only four of the nine cuts. Scherrie's style of music was vastly different that Susaye's and it shows on here. Forgetting the elegance of Another Life From Now or the funk of LuvBug, Motown jumped on the disco bandwagon with a badly edited version of Leaving Me Was The Best Thing You've Ever Done. By contract, Motown released this lp and Mary's and then washed their hands of it. Commodores, Stevie, Smokey and Diana were given promotional budgets.

[detmotownguy]

I'd like to add another tidbit if I may about the Partners lp.

Aside from the politics [[and there was a lot of that), by the time this and the Mary Wilson lp was released Motown was swimming in red. The two or three years prior were very dry for Motown and Berry invested in The Wiz which failed along with other debts that Gordy wrote about in his book. Motown had lost a lot of power in the record industry during this time.

Budgets were slashed. There was virtually no money available to establish new artists and Scherrie, Susaye and Mary were basically new artists outside of the Supremes. The Supremes died a quiet death in the US, had some fanfare overseas but that was about it. Had that last lp done as well as High Energy, things could have been different.

Motown spent a fortune settling lawsuits in order to kill The Supremes and that factored into this as well. Whatever enthusiasm Gordy or dePasse had for this project was buried over money issues. While Mary's lp got some distribution, Partners did not. Most fans had to special order the album.

The material is great but the major complaint is that the lp was uneven as Billboard said. It was not a true duet lp. As I recall the ladies share vocals on only four of the nine cuts. Scherrie's style of music was vastly different that Susaye's and it shows on here. Forgetting the elegance of Another Life From Now or the funk of LuvBug, Motown jumped on the disco bandwagon with a badly edited version of Leaving Me Was The Best Thing You've Ever Done. By contract, Motown released this lp and Mary's and then washed their hands of it. Commodores, Stevie, Smokey and Diana were given promotional budgets.

I might be mistaken but I thought that the Supremes last album outsold high-energy. any comments? I like high-energy I thought it was really good however I thought that the last album was setting them off in a new direction which I thought was helpful at the time .

[marv2]

I'd like to add another tidbit if I may about the Partners lp.

Aside from the politics [[and there was a lot of that), by the time this and the Mary Wilson lp was released Motown was swimming in red. The two or three years prior were very dry for Motown and Berry invested in The Wiz which failed along with other debts that Gordy wrote about in his book. Motown had lost a lot of power in the record industry during this time.

Budgets were slashed. There was virtually no money available to establish new artists and Scherrie, Susaye and Mary were basically new artists outside of the Supremes. The Supremes died a quiet death in the US, had some fanfare overseas but that was about it. Had that last lp done as well as High Energy, things could have been different.

Motown spent a fortune settling lawsuits in order to kill The Supremes and that factored into this as well. Whatever enthusiasm Gordy or dePasse had for this project was buried over money issues. While Mary's lp got some distribution, Partners did not. Most fans had to special order the album.

The material is great but the major complaint is that the lp was uneven as Billboard said. It was not a true duet lp. As I recall the ladies share vocals on only four of the nine cuts. Scherrie's style of music was vastly different that Susaye's and it shows on here. Forgetting the elegance of Another Life From Now or the funk of LuvBug, Motown jumped on the disco bandwagon with a badly edited version of Leaving Me Was The Best Thing You've Ever Done. By contract, Motown released this lp and Mary's and then washed their hands of it. Commodores, Stevie, Smokey and Diana were given promotional budgets.

Yeah well Rick James was bringing in money to Motown during that time, the Commodores were still red hot [[pardon the pun), Stevie was still selling huge amounts and other acts like Switch, Thelma Houston, High Inergy, Jermaine Jackson etc,etc were bringing up the back end nicely. Why Motown had such a money crunch [[aside from that disaster "The Wiz"" which was mostly Berry and Diane's fault) is beyond me!

[BayouMotownMan]

The new acts you mentioned Marv had cooled considerably in 1979. Promotional costs had skyrocketed and frankly Motown just wasn't employing the right people to handle these issues. In the 1980s Gordy wised up and brought some younger people on board and Motown made a brief comeback.

Gordy's gambling debts were also at issue here.

Further hurting Motown was that they simply jumped on the disco bandwagon and the music, outside of Detroit, simply was not as innovative as it had been. Gordy had concentrated more on the film industry and when he took the recording end over again in 1980 he got it up and running for several more years. Smokey himself was getting disillusioned. He had some moderate success as a soloist but it wasn't until "Where There's Smoke" and "Crusin'" hit in late '79 that his solo career took off in earnest. High Inergy was dead by late '79, Switch had cooled some as had Rick James. His second lp did well but the third and fourth did not. It wasn't til 1981 that Street Songs took him to the next level. Gordy also spent a small fortune trying to establish son-in-law Jermaine Jackson as a soloist with only a modest return on this in the 80s. Gaye was ice cold. Stevie and Commodores were still hot, but Ross would not have a major hit again until mid 1980.
Tons of product on Thelma Houston, Jerry Butler, Tata Vega and some newer artists did nothing.

[jobeterob]

High Energy did better than any 70's Supremes LP other than Right On - I believe it made it into the 40's.

Mary Scherrie & Susaye did not even chart on the Top 200 album chart.

It always seemed to me that if there had been a reasonable 2nd single release off High Energy, [[like the song High Energy), there might have been some hope for the Supremes. But the mix of politics prevented that from being a possibility because the lead was the "new girl".

[BayouMotownMan]

High Energy was an unexpected hit album for Motown and the Supremes in the summer of 1976. It came close to gold status.

There were actually two more singles off that lp. Second single should have been title cut followed by You're What's Missing In My Life which got heavy FM airplay

[luke]

I agree. To me the MS and S album was not nearly as good though apparently Berry liked it.

[detmotownguy]

High Energy was an unexpected hit album for Motown and the Supremes in the summer of 1976. It came close to gold status.

There were actually two more singles off that lp. Second single should have been title cut followed by You're What's Missing In My Life which got heavy FM airplay

I didn't realize gold status! Is there a trustworthy source of Sups record sales ?

[detmotownguy]

I agree. To me the MS and S album was not nearly as good though apparently Berry liked it.

Hi Luke! I liked MSS, so very diff fr Energy. Don't get me wrong as High Energy is a fav Sups song. The production is superb! I wish MSS out out one more album just to see what direction they would go. Tons of talent! I wish they would reunite.

[luke]

Hi demot! I agree per the production!

[milven]

In the interview, Susaye mentioned that her mother had a hit in 1948.

[jobeterob]

http://www.greasylake.org/the-circui...a-album-sales/

As good as it gets

125,000 High Energy
50,000 Mary Scherrie & Susaye

[Bluebrock]

I thought "high energy" was a splendid album and should have had at least one more single off it. "Mary, Scherrie and Susaye" was in my opinion a weaker album but still a good listen.
As regards Mary's solo album. The less said about that the better. It was a poor album throughout and not worthy of our Mary. Motown seemed determined to kill off her solo recording career and did a pretty fine job of that. I trust they were proud of themselves.
"partners~" was better but still not very good in my opinion. So many missed opportunities and as Marv rightly says how could Motown treat these great ladies with such utter disrespect. I am still fuming all these years later.

[alanbill1074]

The Supremes really should have ended once Jean left. It was their natural time to end, instead of dragging on and on making acceptable but average disco music [[IMO no need for anyone to go all nuclear on me, I always participate in Supremes threads with trepidation).

The ladies in subsequent versions of the group were all beautiful and talented, but for me, nothing past Floy Joy was really that good, be it in the group or out. Many of the songs were painfully average and to me, that's why they weren't pushed. They simply didn't warrant a huge spend because the potential return wasn't there. Partners was OK, actually better than some Supremes material. If I'd been Mary though I'd have been very vocal about the poor material I was being fobbed off with. That album was extremely weak. She did the best with what she got, which wasn't much.

I agree money was probably tight in the back end of the 70s, which is all the more reason to only spend it where the best return would come.

[luke]

But not much happened with Tata and Syreeta either.

[jobeterob]

Most records released are not hits. As we moved into the 80's and 90's, the record companies were banking on the major smasheroo that made so much money that everyone had pots of gold - The BodyGuard, Thriller.

But for every one of those, there were hundreds of failures and some of the failures were good records.

So many of these groups failed for obvious reasons, every when they had an awesome singer in them. The would have crappy managers ~ generally husbands or sons who didn't have a clue; and as the groups started to fail, they would start fighting each other; and when there wasn't the money coming in anymore, there wasn't much reason to stay together when there were no hits.

There was one real chance for the 70's Supremes ~ right after I'm Going To Let My Heart Do the Walking. And that was to release High Energy. And either Mary or Pedro or both could not cope with that concept after all they had been through ~ and so the Supremes got kicked to the curb.

No record company was going to support that nonsense.

[marv2]

Most records released are not hits. As we moved into the 80's and 90's, the record companies were banking on the major smasheroo that made so much money that everyone had pots of gold - The BodyGuard, Thriller.

But for every one of those, there were hundreds of failures and some of the failures were good records.

So many of these groups failed for obvious reasons, every when they had an awesome singer in them. The would have crappy managers ~ generally husbands or sons who didn't have a clue; and as the groups started to fail, they would start fighting each other; and when there wasn't the money coming in anymore, there wasn't much reason to stay together when there were no hits.

There was one real chance for the 70's Supremes ~ right after I'm Going To Let My Heart Do the Walking. And that was to release High Energy. And either Mary or Pedro or both could not cope with that concept after all they had been through ~ and so the Supremes got kicked to the curb.

No record company was going to support that nonsense.

Is that why Motown dropped Diane?

[RobertZ]

http://www.greasylake.org/the-circui...a-album-sales/

As good as it gets

125,000 High Energy
50,000 Mary Scherrie & Susaye

Dude. That's some harsh shxxx stuff.

[RobertZ]

Most records released are not hits. As we moved into the 80's and 90's, the record companies were banking on the major smasheroo that made so much money that everyone had pots of gold - The BodyGuard, Thriller.

But for every one of those, there were hundreds of failures and some of the failures were good records.

So many of these groups failed for obvious reasons, every when they had an awesome singer in them. The would have crappy managers ~ generally husbands or sons who didn't have a clue; and as the groups started to fail, they would start fighting each other; and when there wasn't the money coming in anymore, there wasn't much reason to stay together when there were no hits.

There was one real chance for the 70's Supremes ~ right after I'm Going To Let My Heart Do the Walking. And that was to release High Energy. And either Mary or Pedro or both could not cope with that concept after all they had been through ~ and so the Supremes got kicked to the curb.

No record company was going to support that nonsense.

What was the "concept" the Ferrars couldn't cope with? And what had they "been through"?

[RobertZ]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DcpBl2HFbug...and they discuss the Supremes and the S supergroup. Does anyone know why they think Partners was " buried"?

Every artist who ever released a bomb blames it on the label. Harsh but true. Labels want their releases to sell -

[jobeterob]

The concept the Ferrers didn't like and could not cope with was that there was a chance another DIANA ROSS would be created out of Susaye Greene ~ because she had some sass, style, and a VOICE that was DISTINCTIVE. Scherrie had a heck of a voice but it does not have the distinction of the Susaye voice. And one or both of the Ferrers did not want Mary to have to go through another Diana taking all the spotlight again. That was a lot for Mary, Florence and Cindy to go through.

Hell, we'd all be jealous and we know it! Three young girls from the projects and one walks away to masses of hits, the movies, Oscar nomination, Central Park and the others have to borrow money from her. Not fun.

I agree ~ everyone blames the label. Yet the old label in this case plastered page large photos in all the trade magazines for Heart do the Walking, Right On, Floy Joy and even the bomb that didn't chart - MSS.

[marv2]

The concept the Ferrers didn't like and could not cope with was that there was a chance another DIANA ROSS would be created out of Susaye Greene ~ because she had some sass, style, and a VOICE that was DISTINCTIVE. Scherrie had a heck of a voice but it does not have the distinction of the Susaye voice. And one or both of the Ferrers did not want Mary to have to go through another Diana taking all the spotlight again. That was a lot for Mary, Florence and Cindy to go through.

Hell, we'd all be jealous and we know it! Three young girls from the projects and one walks away to masses of hits, the movies, Oscar nomination, Central Park and the others have to borrow money from her. Not fun.

I agree ~ everyone blames the label. Yet the old label in this case plastered page large photos in all the trade magazines for Heart do the Walking, Right On, Floy Joy and even the bomb that didn't chart - MSS.

But you see in reality, none of the original Supremes were jealous of Diana Ross because they know how she got there! [[her brother may have been jealous). They were witness to all the "hanky-panky" that was going on behind the scenes to put Miss Ross in a position to do great things later. It was more a feeling of disgust, unfairness and just nasty.It was by design........it was not divine! Learn the difference.

[RobertZ]

The concept the Ferrers didn't like and could not cope with was that there was a chance another DIANA ROSS would be created out of Susaye Greene ~ because she had some sass, style, and a VOICE that was DISTINCTIVE. Scherrie had a heck of a voice but it does not have the distinction of the Susaye voice. And one or both of the Ferrers did not want Mary to have to go through another Diana taking all the spotlight again. That was a lot for Mary, Florence and Cindy to go through.

Hell, we'd all be jealous and we know it! Three young girls from the projects and one walks away to masses of hits, the movies, Oscar nomination, Central Park and the others have to borrow money from her. Not fun.

I agree ~ everyone blames the label. Yet the old label in this case plastered page large photos in all the trade magazines for Heart do the Walking, Right On, Floy Joy and even the bomb that didn't chart - MSS.

Aha - That makes sense. And post-Jean the public didn't accept the revolving-door members as "Supremes" anyway [[after all, this iteration was getting booed off the stage). HE was a great album but your sales figures certainly put to rest the "almost-gold" urban myth. It was a good run for everyone but past time to put it to rest.

[luke]

But wasn't Susaye chosen for those reasons to spice up the Supremes?

[marv2]

Aha - That makes sense. And post-Jean the public didn't accept the revolving-door members as "Supremes" anyway [[after all, this iteration was getting booed off the stage). HE was a great album but your sales figures certainly put to rest the "almost-gold" urban myth. It was a good run for everyone but past time to put it to rest.

Do you even know and understand how and why that incident at MSG occurred in March 1977? I'll give you a hint. It had nothing to do with the Supremes talents.

[marv2]

But wasn't Susaye chosen for those reasons to spice up the Supremes?

Yes, that is true.

[milven]

Do you even know and understand how and why that incident at MSG occurred in March 1977? I'll give you a hint. It had nothing to do with the Supremes talents.

I always thought that it had to do with the audience and the music the Supremes chose to sing. They were singing their new songs, and the audience was expecting the oldies of the sixties. Is this assumption correct?

On a personal note, I had tickets for that show. My friend subwayed into the city from Brooklyn and I drove in from NJ, but there was a lack of communication and she and I were waiting for each other at different locations. [[This was before cell phones) So we did not get to see the show. I've always had mixed emotions about that. I was sorry that I missed the show, but I think it would have been very hurtful to have sat in the audience and see my group booed

[luke]

Didn't Mary decide to leave the group that night?

[Bluebrock]

The Supremes really should have ended once Jean left. It was their natural time to end, instead of dragging on and on making acceptable but average disco music [[IMO no need for anyone to go all nuclear on me, I always participate in Supremes threads with trepidation).

The ladies in subsequent versions of the group were all beautiful and talented, but for me, nothing past Floy Joy was really that good, be it in the group or out. Many of the songs were painfully average and to me, that's why they weren't pushed. They simply didn't warrant a huge spend because the potential return wasn't there. Partners was OK, actually better than some Supremes material. If I'd been Mary though I'd have been very vocal about the poor material I was being fobbed off with. That album was extremely weak. She did the best with what she got, which wasn't much.

I agree money was probably tight in the back end of the 70s, which is all the more reason to only spend it where the best return would come.

I totally agree Alan. I have said this in the past. For me the Supremes died when Jean left. Afterwards we were left with great individual performers that didn't look comfortable together. "HE" was a great album but for me it didn't sound like the Supremes, but let's be honest. The girls had a good run but nothing lasts forever. Maybe Motown realised this and that is why they treated them so appallingly.

[jobeterob]

I totally agree Alan. I have said this in the past. For me the Supremes died when Jean left. Afterwards we were left with great individual performers that didn't look comfortable together. "HE" was a great album but for me it didn't sound like the Supremes, but let's be honest. The girls had a good run but nothing lasts forever. Maybe Motown realised this and that is why they treated them so appallingly.

I don't know that is accurate to say they were treated appallingly; they were treated like every other act that has revolving member, infighting, poor management and isn't making any money. That's how Columbia, Mercury, Decca, Sony, Warners, Atlantic treated them all then and they do it now. The artist is not very significant unless they turn out the huge hits.

Mary Wilson never sold anything for any record company and so she was treated as generally irrelevant ~ relevant only in that she was a background singer in the Supremes.

She took that and made it into a career and that was due to hard work and commitment, even if it came later in life.

But to a record company, expecting one of those to support her and the 70's Supremes was a pipe dream. It just doesn't work that way.

I believe Susaye might have been their way back but it never happened and it's just another one of those "what if's"

This is the way that record companies now treat Diana Ross, Aretha Franklin and Stevie Wonder ~ relevant for a glorious past but nothing much for right now. Give them GaGa and Taylor.

[thanxal]

I don't know that is accurate to say they were treated appallingly; they were treated like every other act that has revolving member, infighting, poor management and isn't making any money. That's how Columbia, Mercury, Decca, Sony, Warners, Atlantic treated them all then and they do it now. The artist is not very significant unless they turn out the huge hits.
Mary Wilson never sold anything for any record company and so she was treated as generally irrelevant ~ relevant only in that she was a background singer in the Supremes.

She took that and made it into a career and that was due to hard work and commitment, even if it came later in life.

But to a record company, expecting one of those to support her and the 70's Supremes was a pipe dream. It just doesn't work that way.

I believe Susaye might have been their way back but it never happened and it's just another one of those "what if's"

This is the way that record companies now treat Diana Ross, Aretha Franklin and Stevie Wonder ~ relevant for a glorious past but nothing much for right now. Give them GaGa and Taylor.

Oh my! How dare you not blame an evil conspiracy or insist that evil record label didn't do x,y or z or did x,y or z. Why insert logic into this debate! </snark>.

[Bluebrock]

I don't know that is accurate to say they were treated appallingly; they were treated like every other act that has revolving member, infighting, poor management and isn't making any money. That's how Columbia, Mercury, Decca, Sony, Warners, Atlantic treated them all then and they do it now. The artist is not very significant unless they turn out the huge hits.

Mary Wilson never sold anything for any record company and so she was treated as generally irrelevant ~ relevant only in that she was a background singer in the Supremes.

She took that and made it into a career and that was due to hard work and commitment, even if it came later in life.

But to a record company, expecting one of those to support her and the 70's Supremes was a pipe dream. It just doesn't work that way.

I believe Susaye might have been their way back but it never happened and it's just another one of those "what if's"

This is the way that record companies now treat Diana Ross, Aretha Franklin and Stevie Wonder ~ relevant for a glorious past but nothing much for right now. Give them GaGa and Taylor.

Okay, maybe I did go a little over the top when I said they were treated appallingly. I shall change that to treated shabbily. I still get very annoyed by what went on back then. Thank you for your wise words.

[RobertZ]

jobeterob, thanxal -
So true. In fact another perspective could be that Motown gave the "Supremes" every possible chance to succeed, what with revolving [[and, largely faceless) members, diminishing sales, cancelled bookings, etc. I recall seeing them on TV with every new release, the records were in stores, etc. My belief is and always will be that the Supremes consisted, in their glory years and for a tad with Jean, as recognizable faces. After Jean left it was "Who's calling themselves Supremes now?". That was the response of the general public as well. Many in the business were treated far worse. And remember that during the British Invasion and Motown Mania the early R&R / teen stars were pushed aside for the new sounds also. No consipiricy required.

[luke]

Mary wilson and Cindy Birdsong more than paid their dues and deserved respect.

[milven]

jobeterob, thanxal -
... And remember that during the British Invasion and Motown Mania the early R&R / teen stars were pushed aside for the new sounds also. No consipiricy required.

So true. Many big stars of the late fifties like Frankie Avalon, Connie Francis, Brenda Lee, Bobby Rydell and so many more were pushed aside by Motown and the British invasion.

And the span for so many singers and groups is usually only about five or six years at the top. The Supremes had six peak years and then continued to have success on a different level for another six years. If they kept going and kept up the rapid revolving door of Supremes , they would have evolved into an oldies tribute act to the original group. In my opinion the Four Tops and the Temptations are now basically tribute acts to themselves.

[jobeterob]

All these artists get treated like commodities by the companies; and now it is even worse because there is little money to be made at it.

I think Mary, Cindy, Flo, Susaye, Scherrie, Lynda are all loved and highly respected by the fans. There are pictures of them on Facebook with fans all the time [[well, not so much Flo).

But when the artist stops making money, the boot comes out fast, the hook comes out fast to grab them off the stage.

I actually think Berry, his family and Motown weren't as bad as many of the others. And most of Berry's artists continue singing his praises through to this day.

[RobertZ]

Mary wilson and Cindy Birdsong more than paid their dues and deserved respect.

Certainly many people agree with you. As well as fans and members of the Cookies, the Orlons, the Four Seasons, Mercy, the American Breed, the Drells, the Dells, Blood Sweat & Tears, the Fontaine Sisters, the Impressions, the Starlighters, Herman's Hermits, the Shirelles, the Shangri-Las, the Shondells, Three Dog Night, the Limelights, the Crickets, the Standells, the Detroit Wheels, the Imperials, the Pacemakers, the Union Gap, the Fleewoods, the Belmonts, the Dixie Cups, the Juniors, the Dave Clark Five, the Crystals, the Ronettes, and maybe one or two more. Point being, of course, that there always has been, and always will be, stated or implied conspiricy theories surrounding the Supremes, but all facts point to the conclusion that they were exit-compensated as well [[most likely, better), than many others in the biz who were no longer popular or profitable. In fact one would be very hard pressed to find a single ex-hitmaker who felt they were compensated fairly.

[jobeterob]

Lesley Gore said that she did not receive a penny from Mercury from 1969 when she was dumped until something like 1987 ~ all those back costs!

[RobertZ]

Lesley Gore said that she did not receive a penny from Mercury from 1969 when she was dumped until something like 1987 ~ all those back costs!

I recall - and It's My Party and You Don't Own Me were played daily on oldies stations, commercials, movies, etc. And Ms. Gore was the lead singer. Unfortunately it's an industry standard, not a conspiracy against one or two [[or three) group members.

[BayouMotownMan]

But you see in reality, none of the original Supremes were jealous of Diana Ross because they know how she got there! [[her brother may have been jealous). They were witness to all the "hanky-panky" that was going on behind the scenes to put Miss Ross in a position to do great things later. It was more a feeling of disgust, unfairness and just nasty.It was by design........it was not divine! Learn the difference.

I have to speak up here. You know Marv you have been spewing this crap for over 15 years about incidents that happened 50+ years ago. I have to wonder how lonely and unfulfilled your life must be to dwell on this sort of urban myth.

But let's examine your logic that Diana Ross slept her was to stardom with Berry Gordy which you have asserted numerous times.

Her backup singer Mary Wilson, by her own admission, had well-publicized affairs with some powerful men in show business. Among them Steve McQueen, David Frost, Abdul Fakir, Tom Jones and Flip Wilson who wanted to marry her. Many of these men were married, but that seems to bother you only when Diana Ross treads that ground. So by your assessment, seeing that these men were powerful, then the assumption would be that they could have escalated Mary Wilson into the same stellar territory that Ross has enjoyed. But it didn't happen.

Instead she married the unknown and unemployed Pedro Ferrer and put him in charge of her career. To this day she has not been able to get over the damage he caused her.

As far as the original Supremes being jealous of her, of course they were. They were young girls watching their bandmate being given special attention by the boss whom she became involved with. It was the jealousy that helped Flo spin out of control. Many artists were jealous of Diana Ross because Gordy was always praising her and comparing them to her which nobody likes. One Motown female vocalist was even told at a recording session to try and "sound like Diane."

As far as Susaye being denied a hit with High Energy, I would say some jealousy may have been involved. But the practical reason is that she had only been in the group for a few months and was still on a probation which all new girls were in when joining the Supremes. Mary was not so traumatized by the effects of working with Diana Ross as she was her replacement; Diana may be temperamental but she gave a show no matter what unless circumstances were beyond her control, which rarely happened.

The sad truth is that the public will pick a winner and whomever is in that person's shadow will struggle for recognition. It happened to the Jacksons. It happened to Vandellas. To Pips. To Temptations and countless other groups. I will maintain that Gordy saw drive in Diana Ross that simply was not there in her bandmates. He is shrewd. He gambled on the one he knew would deliver.

Being said, I think if we focus on NOW and let THEN go because it truly is irrelevant to NOW. I appreciate every song that came out of Motown, they all have their own magic. Who slept with whom and who is responsible for someone else's failures has gotten so tiring. AND IRRELEVANT.

If it bothers a person that someone is sleeping with someone else I thing that person should seek counseling. It should have no issue in the objecting person's life. For instance, look at the Federal worker out of Kentucky that is in jail today for denying same-sex marriage licenses. This lady has been married FOUR TIMES. Speaks for itself. Misery: Thy name is jealousy

Personally my favorite singers at Motown would be Jean Terrell, Syreeta, Tammi Terrell, Martha Reeves and Kim Weston. It is sad that their successes were so limited. But they had opportunities after Motown but it just didn't happen. It's nobody's fault. I feel Lynda Laurence, Scherrie Payne and Susaye Greene could have been showcased more [[as could Cindy) but I appreciate what little I do have of them. I don't listen to this stuff and blame someone else for whatever success they didn't have. Why do that to myself?

I just dance and enjoy it. These boards would be so much more peaceful if the rest of us did.

[luke]

The Cookies and the Supremes were not exactly in the same league. Supremes were the #1 group in the USA.

[jim aka jtigre99]

Ai yi yi. I didn't want to comment on yet another Supremes thread with my actual opinions because that is what we all have-opinions. I just get so tired of reading disrespect to the individual groups members. I have opinions, too, and I will express them here. Partners probably did get buried for reasons we can only guess at. The three LPs by the former Supremes were all uneven at best-Partners, Mary Wilson and Ross. Diana Ross had an amazingly distinctive voice and when she performed she was visually exciting. In the original group, Florence had a longer and stronger voice but it was the least distinctive of the original three which was loud and strong but had no distinctive sound and personality. Mary had a distinctive voice but considered herself more a group member and balladeer as lead, she pulled back when singing background with Florence so it was more like harmony and not two loud vocalists competing with each other. Cindy added her own spark and glamour to the group but was not as loud as Florence and not distinctive in sound, Wilson was much louder and adjusted her voice to harmonize with her. Jean Terrell also had a distinctive voice but could sometimes get shrill like on Jimmy Webb LP. Visually she was a handsome woman but some sort of spark was missing and Mary & Cindy seemed to provide it more than ever. By the time Lynda joined, she was visually attractive and had a louder voice than Cindy but it seemed to also lack personality. Scherrie Payne was a dynamo-she sang loud and strong with personality and was visually exciting. Her voice wasn't as distinctive as Ross or Terrell but she breathed life into the group and had the power Ballard had but was able to control it better and provide some exciting songs that lacked in the latter day Terrell and Ross days. Susaye Greene had a distinctive voice and I think High energy would have made a great second single but at the time it took some time for me to get used to that song in 1976. I think Susaye may have moved the group in a far different direction from what the Supremes had been. I have read she had far different ideas on what the group focus should have been,. I am glad that the group did not end with the Jimmy Webb LP. I think the last 2 editions gave some life to the group even if it did not have the same mass popularity. Partners probably was buried as it seems like 2 LPs joined to make 1 product, Mary's solo LP was OK but her forte was ballads and Red Hot was one of my least favorites, would have preferred I Love A Warm Summer Night or Midnight Dancer as a single. The songs to her follow up were more her style and possibly could have been closer as a hit. But we really don't know what was going on at Motown. I love all of the Supremes' talents but we really don't know what they were like to work with or why they never got the push they deserved. I just enjoy the music and their talents.

[thommg]

I find myself agreeing with everything that jim akajtigre99 said in his post. I would not want to give up the last three Supremes lp's or Mary Wilson or Partners. I find much joy in all of them. Were the lp's buried? Probably. But, I don't think there was malicious intent. I don't think the record division was being handled well at that point, Gordy's interests were elsewhere. Every time a record company changes an executive, some band or group is left behind. That's fact. You need the backing of the person in charge. And those in charge want to make their own mark with people they sign not inherit. None of these Supremes had anyone fully behind them. Certainly, Pedro had no connections and no idea how to do what needed to be done at that point. By this time, there were other girl groups that were making a splash, newer but based on The Supremes. Their selling point was they weren't The Supremes because every generation wants their own performers to idolize. I don't think it was the changing members that hurt so much as not really finding a niche that wasn't so tied to the original Supremes. I often wonder what would have happened if Jean, Lynda & Mary had left the name behind and continued as another group. Would they have found more success or just been ignored? Would another company have been willing to spend the money needed to give them the push they would need or would people have just said, "it's The Supremes with a new name"? As someone said above, every group runs its course. The Supremes had a long run by group standards. And I was glad to be along for the entire ride.

[Roberta75]

I have to speak up here. You know Marv you have been spewing this crap for over 15 years about incidents that happened 50+ years ago. I have to wonder how lonely and unfulfilled your life must be to dwell on this sort of urban myth.

But let's examine your logic that Diana Ross slept her was to stardom with Berry Gordy which you have asserted numerous times.

Her backup singer Mary Wilson, by her own admission, had well-publicized affairs with some powerful men in show business. Among them Steve McQueen, David Frost, Abdul Fakir, Tom Jones and Flip Wilson who wanted to marry her. Many of these men were married, but that seems to bother you only when Diana Ross treads that ground. So by your assessment, seeing that these men were powerful, then the assumption would be that they could have escalated Mary Wilson into the same stellar territory that Ross has enjoyed. But it didn't happen.

Instead she married the unknown and unemployed Pedro Ferrer and put him in charge of her career. To this day she has not been able to get over the damage he caused her.

As far as the original Supremes being jealous of her, of course they were. They were young girls watching their bandmate being given special attention by the boss whom she became involved with. It was the jealousy that helped Flo spin out of control. Many artists were jealous of Diana Ross because Gordy was always praising her and comparing them to her which nobody likes. One Motown female vocalist was even told at a recording session to try and "sound like Diane."

As far as Susaye being denied a hit with High Energy, I would say some jealousy may have been involved. But the practical reason is that she had only been in the group for a few months and was still on a probation which all new girls were in when joining the Supremes. Mary was not so traumatized by the effects of working with Diana Ross as she was her replacement; Diana may be temperamental but she gave a show no matter what unless circumstances were beyond her control, which rarely happened.

The sad truth is that the public will pick a winner and whomever is in that person's shadow will struggle for recognition. It happened to the Jacksons. It happened to Vandellas. To Pips. To Temptations and countless other groups. I will maintain that Gordy saw drive in Diana Ross that simply was not there in her bandmates. He is shrewd. He gambled on the one he knew would deliver.

Being said, I think if we focus on NOW and let THEN go because it truly is irrelevant to NOW. I appreciate every song that came out of Motown, they all have their own magic. Who slept with whom and who is responsible for someone else's failures has gotten so tiring. AND IRRELEVANT.

If it bothers a person that someone is sleeping with someone else I thing that person should seek counseling. It should have no issue in the objecting person's life. For instance, look at the Federal worker out of Kentucky that is in jail today for denying same-sex marriage licenses. This lady has been married FOUR TIMES. Speaks for itself. Misery: Thy name is jealousy

Personally my favorite singers at Motown would be Jean Terrell, Syreeta, Tammi Terrell, Martha Reeves and Kim Weston. It is sad that their successes were so limited. But they had opportunities after Motown but it just didn't happen. It's nobody's fault. I feel Lynda Laurence, Scherrie Payne and Susaye Greene could have been showcased more [[as could Cindy) but I appreciate what little I do have of them. I don't listen to this stuff and blame someone else for whatever success they didn't have. Why do that to myself?

I just dance and enjoy it. These boards would be so much more peaceful if the rest of us did.

Wow that the best and most honest post Ive ever written. Thank you.

wishing you a safe and blessed weekend.

Fondly

Roberta

[RobertZ]

I have to speak up here. You know Marv you have been spewing this crap for over 15 years about incidents that happened 50+ years ago. I have to wonder how lonely and unfulfilled your life must be to dwell on this sort of urban myth.

But let's examine your logic that Diana Ross slept her was to stardom with Berry Gordy which you have asserted numerous times.

Her backup singer Mary Wilson, by her own admission, had well-publicized affairs with some powerful men in show business. Among them Steve McQueen, David Frost, Abdul Fakir, Tom Jones and Flip Wilson who wanted to marry her. Many of these men were married, but that seems to bother you only when Diana Ross treads that ground. So by your assessment, seeing that these men were powerful, then the assumption would be that they could have escalated Mary Wilson into the same stellar territory that Ross has enjoyed. But it didn't happen.

Instead she married the unknown and unemployed Pedro Ferrer and put him in charge of her career. To this day she has not been able to get over the damage he caused her.

As far as the original Supremes being jealous of her, of course they were. They were young girls watching their bandmate being given special attention by the boss whom she became involved with. It was the jealousy that helped Flo spin out of control. Many artists were jealous of Diana Ross because Gordy was always praising her and comparing them to her which nobody likes. One Motown female vocalist was even told at a recording session to try and "sound like Diane."

As far as Susaye being denied a hit with High Energy, I would say some jealousy may have been involved. But the practical reason is that she had only been in the group for a few months and was still on a probation which all new girls were in when joining the Supremes. Mary was not so traumatized by the effects of working with Diana Ross as she was her replacement; Diana may be temperamental but she gave a show no matter what unless circumstances were beyond her control, which rarely happened.

The sad truth is that the public will pick a winner and whomever is in that person's shadow will struggle for recognition. It happened to the Jacksons. It happened to Vandellas. To Pips. To Temptations and countless other groups. I will maintain that Gordy saw drive in Diana Ross that simply was not there in her bandmates. He is shrewd. He gambled on the one he knew would deliver.

Being said, I think if we focus on NOW and let THEN go because it truly is irrelevant to NOW. I appreciate every song that came out of Motown, they all have their own magic. Who slept with whom and who is responsible for someone else's failures has gotten so tiring. AND IRRELEVANT.

If it bothers a person that someone is sleeping with someone else I thing that person should seek counseling. It should have no issue in the objecting person's life. For instance, look at the Federal worker out of Kentucky that is in jail today for denying same-sex marriage licenses. This lady has been married FOUR TIMES. Speaks for itself. Misery: Thy name is jealousy

Personally my favorite singers at Motown would be Jean Terrell, Syreeta, Tammi Terrell, Martha Reeves and Kim Weston. It is sad that their successes were so limited. But they had opportunities after Motown but it just didn't happen. It's nobody's fault. I feel Lynda Laurence, Scherrie Payne and Susaye Greene could have been showcased more [[as could Cindy) but I appreciate what little I do have of them. I don't listen to this stuff and blame someone else for whatever success they didn't have. Why do that to myself?

I just dance and enjoy it. These boards would be so much more peaceful if the rest of us did.

Perfectly stated.