Mary Admits That Berry Was Right To Make Diana the Supremes' Lead Singer

[milven]

She also says that when Diana left the group, Mary had to decide whether she wanted to continue. She did, but she had to have someone step in to take Diana’s place. A lot of people asked her ‘Why don’t you do it?’ But she said, ‘I’m not prepared to do it.’ Knowing that Diana was being set up to go solo, she does not say why she didn't use her down time [[while Diana was in studio recording with others) to prepare herself with voice coaches and to build up her confidence

However, since then Mary has learned how to create opportunities, make things happen, and has confidence on stage

I also think that Berry made the right choice in picking Diana as lead But I do wish that they performed more as a harmony group , side by side , with Diana as lead But you cant argue with success, and The Supremes were definitely a success

Link to full article below

http://www.voice-online.co.uk/articl...shoes%E2%80%99

[RobertZ]

Good interview; thanks for posting.

[supremester]

Mary created this bullshit competition between the three of them for the sake of making money off Dreamgirl. Whoever sang leads at their sock hops wasn't relevant to Berry Gordy - he wanted to sell records and did. I don't think anyone at Motown questioned Mary's obvious talent - she just didn't have a pop radio voice that this group required or the vocal skills to pull it off. She wasn't near ready - and still wasn't in 1983. By '87, she was great. I think all the talk shows she did for the books helped her in some way - but she's been a very good chanteuse and hostess ever since.

[Bluebrock]

I agree that Mary has grown as a performer as she has got older. She would not have been suitable to take over as lead singer from Diana. She was fine as the occasional co lead and it was sad that the Supremes disbanded just as Mary came into herself as a vocalist. Just listen to those ballads on the final three Supremes albums.

[captainjames]

Thanks Mary,, most of the fans agree as well that Diana was the right choice.

[Roberta75]

She also says that when Diana left the group, Mary had to decide whether she wanted to continue. She did, but she had to have someone step in to take Diana’s place. A lot of people asked her ‘Why don’t you do it?’ But she said, ‘I’m not prepared to do it.’ Knowing that Diana was being set up to go solo, she does not say why she didn't use her down time [[while Diana was in studio recording with others) to prepare herself with voice coaches and to build up her confidence

However, since then Mary has learned how to create opportunities, make things happen, and has confidence on stage

I also think that Berry made the right choice in picking Diana as lead But I do wish that they performed more as a harmony group , side by side , with Diana as lead But you cant argue with success, and The Supremes were definitely a success

Link to full article below

http://www.voice-online.co.uk/articl...shoes%E2%80%99

Mary Wilsons right you cant argue with success or history and 12 number ones prove that. Mr Gordy made the right choice imo.

Roberta

[jobeterob]

Mary has done fine considering what she had to work with.

It does annoy me a bit that the Destinys Child women were able to have a few hits on their own and establish careers ~ whereas the "other" Supremes never really pulled it off.

But times have changed.

[kenneth]

I think, while Mary's voice is pleasant, and has grown stronger over the years, it simply lacks distinctiveness. When she was kind of a breathy alto there were only a few songs which would really suit her like "Can't Take My Eyes Off You" and other ballads such as those on the second side of "High Energy." As she's aged, her voice has gotten deeper and, yes, stronger, but to me she doesn't stand out as having a really memorable voice. As much as I admire her for her talent and for carrying on the Supremes legacy, there's no doubt that without Diane on lead, the Supremes would never have had the success that they had.

[jobeterob]

I think, while Mary's voice is pleasant, and has grown stronger over the years, it simply lacks distinctiveness. When she was kind of a breathy alto there were only a few songs which would really suit her like "Can't Take My Eyes Off You" and other ballads such as those on the second side of "High Energy." As she's aged, her voice has gotten deeper and, yes, stronger, but to me she doesn't stand out as having a really memorable voice. As much as I admire her for her talent and for carrying on the Supremes legacy, there's no doubt that without Diane on lead, the Supremes would never have had the success that they had.

Very nicely written.

[supremester]

It's not so easy to get a hit and with Mary & Flo you had ability issues to deal with. Producers were not exactly begging to work with either one - it was the other way around. Even after Motown, neither got any interest. the one chance Mary had with a viable single: One Night with You did zero because her voice just ain't radio and her phrasing is pedestrian.

Mary has done fine considering what she had to work with.

It does annoy me a bit that the Destinys Child women were able to have a few hits on their own and establish careers ~ whereas the "other" Supremes never really pulled it off.

But times have changed.

[marv2]

I love it! I knew something was being left out! Knowing Mary as long as I have, I knew she didn't just leave it at that! This is the full quote:

"Still, Wilson admits that she thinks Gordy was right to make Ross the group’s lead singer. But she feels that herself and bandmate Ballard – who tragically died of cardiac arrest in 1976 at the age of 32 – suffered as a result of not being able to develop in the same way as their group’s frontwoman."

[carole cucumber]

I love it! I knew something was being left out! Knowing Mary as long as I have, I knew she didn't just leave it at that! This is the full quote:

"Still, Wilson admits that she thinks Gordy was right to make Ross the group’s lead singer. But she feels that herself and bandmate Ballard – who tragically died of cardiac arrest in 1976 at the age of 32 – suffered as a result of not being able to develop in the same way as their group’s frontwoman."

Somehow Marv forgot to include the rest of the quote:

“We were all singing at the beginning, but Mr Berry Gordy decided that Diana had the more commercial voice, which actually ended up being the truth – and you can’t argue with the truth! After that, we became famous and it was good.
“The bad part was the fact that the other group members didn’t get the opportunity to grow as much as Diana did because we didn’t use all of our talents. That was the one thing that was hurtful. And because of that, it’s actually taken me my entire life to learn how to really sing.

In a way, that’s a good thing because now I’m almost like a new artist [laughs]. But it’s not easy trying to teach an old dog new tricks, as they say. Sometimes you can fail miserably and I have failed many times because I knew I wasn’t up to par.”
It’s a shocking confession from a member of such a globally successful group. But Wilson doesn’t shy away from admitting that she didn’t have the skills to match Ross, who went on to score solo success with hits including I’m Coming Out and Upside Down.
“When Diana left the group, I had to decide whether I wanted to continue. I did, because I loved what I was doing, but I had to have someone step in to take Diana’s place. A lot of people said to me, ‘Why don’t you do it?’ But I was like, ‘I’m not prepared to do it.’ I knew I wasn’t prepared at that time to take that on. And it was at that point that I really started developing my voice and I’ve been taking voice classes ever since.”

Could it be that Wilson lacked confidence, rather than talent?
“You could say that. But I think you could also say that I was smart enough to understand what I could and could not do at the time.
“A lack of confidence was certainly a part of it. But I realised that I didn’t have the confidence because I hadn’t developed. I think it was the smart thing to do, rather than stepping out in front and having people say, ‘She can’t handle what she’s doing.’
“Maybe I could have jumped out in front and it might have worked out, but I’m not that impetuous. I like to know what I can and can’t do. And now, I do jump in a little bit,” Wilson laughs. “I might only have a few years left. It might [[be) 25 but it might be five, so I’m gonna try and do it now!”

[marv2]

Somehow Marv forgot to include the rest of the quote:

“We were all singing at the beginning, but Mr Berry Gordy decided that Diana had the more commercial voice, which actually ended up being the truth – and you can’t argue with the truth! After that, we became famous and it was good.
“The bad part was the fact that the other group members didn’t get the opportunity to grow as much as Diana did because we didn’t use all of our talents. That was the one thing that was hurtful. And because of that, it’s actually taken me my entire life to learn how to really sing.

In a way, that’s a good thing because now I’m almost like a new artist [laughs]. But it’s not easy trying to teach an old dog new tricks, as they say. Sometimes you can fail miserably and I have failed many times because I knew I wasn’t up to par.”
It’s a shocking confession from a member of such a globally successful group. But Wilson doesn’t shy away from admitting that she didn’t have the skills to match Ross, who went on to score solo success with hits including I’m Coming Out and Upside Down.
“When Diana left the group, I had to decide whether I wanted to continue. I did, because I loved what I was doing, but I had to have someone step in to take Diana’s place. A lot of people said to me, ‘Why don’t you do it?’ But I was like, ‘I’m not prepared to do it.’ I knew I wasn’t prepared at that time to take that on. And it was at that point that I really started developing my voice and I’ve been taking voice classes ever since.”

Could it be that Wilson lacked confidence, rather than talent?
“You could say that. But I think you could also say that I was smart enough to understand what I could and could not do at the time.
“A lack of confidence was certainly a part of it. But I realised that I didn’t have the confidence because I hadn’t developed. I think it was the smart thing to do, rather than stepping out in front and having people say, ‘She can’t handle what she’s doing.’
“Maybe I could have jumped out in front and it might have worked out, but I’m not that impetuous. I like to know what I can and can’t do. And now, I do jump in a little bit,” Wilson laughs. “I might only have a few years left. It might [[be) 25 but it might be five, so I’m gonna try and do it now!”

Thank you for doing that. I was going to copy and paste the entire article but I had a phone call to take.

[milven]

I love it! I knew something was being left out! "[/B]

Marv, nothing was left out. I provided the link in my post to the article titled
Mary Wilson: ‘I wasn’t ready to fill diana’s shoes’

The quote that you referred to IS in the article. If you wish to keep discussing that, go for it. The news in the article is that Mary said that she wasn't ready and that Berry made the right decision to pick Diana as lead.

And so far, no one has said anything negative about Mary. Hopefully, you will be as graceful and not say anything negative about Diana

[supremester]

It takes just as long to do the entire article as it does just the part YOU wanted to share "we suffered" spare us your BS - have you no dignity at all? Everyone knows a phone call had nothing to do with it this - it is your standard MO - EVERYONE sees through it.

Diana Ross is a rare talent: Mary is great, but has been solo for decades and still hasn't developed where Ross was in 1963. You can hear her innate vocal instincts even as she sings through her nose on Meet The Supremes at 16 and see she had the goods then - others saw it, and 55 years later - it is still a world class, iconic, history making, award winning cherished ability.

Thank you for doing that. I was going to copy and paste the entire article but I had a phone call to take.

[jobeterob]

It takes just as long to do the entire article as it does just the part YOU wanted to share "we suffered" spare us your BS - have you no dignity at all? Everyone knows a phone call had nothing to do with it this - it is your standard MO - EVERYONE sees through it.

Diana Ross is a rare talent: Mary is great, but has been solo for decades and still hasn't developed where Ross was in 1963. You can hear her innate vocal instincts even as she sings through her nose on Meet The Supremes at 16 and see she had the goods then - others saw it, and 55 years later - it is still a world class, iconic, history making, award winning cherished ability.

Ester: Mary is NOT great. Mary was made great because she was around Berry and Diana. She learned well from them ~ it took years but she finally got it. And she has worked with tenacity since the 1980's ~ as Diana did from the 1960's until recently.

But Mary is not a great singer; she is average. Perhaps if she had gone the Nancy Wilson route immediately after 1970, she might have carved a true solo career - not one based on hits Diana Ross made famous.

[antceleb12]

It takes just as long to do the entire article as it does just the part YOU wanted to share "we suffered" spare us your BS - have you no dignity at all? Everyone knows a phone call had nothing to do with it this - it is your standard MO - EVERYONE sees through it.

Diana Ross is a rare talent: Mary is great, but has been solo for decades and still hasn't developed where Ross was in 1963. You can hear her innate vocal instincts even as she sings through her nose on Meet The Supremes at 16 and see she had the goods then - others saw it, and 55 years later - it is still a world class, iconic, history making, award winning cherished ability.

Supremester, leave well enough alone. Why do you care if marv had a phone call or not? I'm getting so sick and tired of seeing this kind of trash-talk between members who are supposed to be adults. If you have a problem with a forum member, PM that member directly. How hard is that? I love learning about Supreme history, as they are one of my favorite Motown groups. However, I am continually disappointed again and again by this constant barrage against other members over personal matters. I have seen nothing in these threads that warrants this type of lampooning. Please consider rereading Ralph's rules on conduct - particularly the sticky notes pertaining to these Supremes threads. I can't speak for anyone else, but I know I'm frustrated by the lack of ability on the part of some members to hold a conversation about any Supreme without shaming one another.

[antceleb12]

Ester: Mary is NOT great. Mary was made great because she was around Berry and Diana. She learned well from them ~ it took years but she finally got it. And she has worked with tenacity since the 1980's ~ as Diana did from the 1960's until recently.

But Mary is not a great singer; she is average. Perhaps if she had gone the Nancy Wilson route immediately after 1970, she might have carved a true solo career - not one based on hits Diana Ross made famous.

'Great' is in the eye of the beholder [[or the ear of the listener, in this case). Personally, I think Mary's voice is great. Compare her voice from the Supremes to other girl group singers from that era and it is quite identifiable. I will agree that occasionally her voice fell flat on a number of songs, but in my opinion, so did Diana's. And this is not bashing either Supreme. Objectively speaking, there are certain songs Diana sings I felt could have been sung better by another Supreme, and other songs led by either Mary or Florence I felt could have been led better by Diana. I think the key thing is that Mary and Florence were not given ample attention for developing their craft. But that's another discussion.

Again, just my opinion.

[marv2]

I love Mary Wilson's singing. She can sing for me any day [[or night!). The live Jazz CD "Up Close" knocked me out! Superb. She is a great singer and excellent performer.

[supremester]

@antceleb: you're right. My point wasn't to be a bitch, but to hopefully put an end to his BS so we could continue the discussion without it veering off on another of his cut and paste jobs that totally distort the intent of the reason for the discussion in the first place. It was stooopid of me, I know better than to hope that, if exposed again, maybe the SS/DD would change. Point taken!

As for the thread, the best voice is all conjecture. Who we like, is opinion. Who was best to lead the group for it's intended purpose is ridiculous to even discuss. There's never been a question of talent per se' for any of the girls. On solos, I prefer Mary to Flo hands down - yet I much preferred Flo to Mary in the group. Stating what we like and don't like isn't bashing IMO. I've heard it all about Miss Ross a million times since high school. My besties all sweated Zepplin, creedence, The Who, Canned Heat etc - what do you think I heard when I showed up with Cream Of The Crop or TCB??? LOL. On AGoGo, I don't like Mary on CAGTM, nor would I want Ross on it - so I'd have given it to Flo. On Boots, I might have given each a third. On Sloopy, I'd give Flo & Ross The Chorus Starting with Flo and blending to Ross, and Ross the verse which I think she's exquisite on. I admire Ross & Gil for giving People to Mary cuz she's great on it and was a good call. It also shows Ross' view on the group was spot on. Is this bashing?: I think it sucks Mary purposely misled her readers into thinking People was Ross' after The Copa - just to further her BS agenda in the book. "Poor Flo" had People back right after The Copa and soon Mary was singing it with her - how could the happy ending of that story be left behind? She created this Diana vs Mary thing to sell books. It divided the group, the fans and we all suffered for it.

[marv2]

Mary Wilson, I really admire her for having the courage to tell her story, the truth! Everyone that lived it along with her knows that it was all true. There hasn't been even a hint of a lawsuit in the nearly 30 years since the classic bestseller "Dreamgirl, My Life As A Supreme" was released.

[detmotownguy]

Mary Wilson, I really admire her for having the courage to tell her story, the truth! Everyone that lived it along with her knows that it was all true. There hasn't been even a hint of a lawsuit in the nearly 30 years since the classic bestseller "Dreamgirl, My Life As A Supreme" was released.

Mary was writing her book for years through her diary. In a sense there wasn't really much news/dirt that many people didn't know. There are certainly things she could have discussed, but chose not too. In Detroit anyway, people were aware of the dynamics of the group. The interesting part of her book was the early history of the group and their rise after WDOLG. Mary rode that wave for the distance. She is well known and respected among her peers. She is demand for interviews and the history of the group, in addition to performing.

[supremester]

She may have written a diary, but I don't believe the book was written from it - unless she was on LSD a lot as there are a lot of inaccuracies that could never have come from a diary otherwise [[things that didn't happen etc) I think she used a diary for the basis of selling the book - and, perhaps a point of reference at times, but there's a lot missing and a lot not true. Like how could her diary read: "May 5: Performed Some Things You Never Get Used To on Ed Sullivan" when Diana hadn't even recorded it yet and they never did the song on there? There's a lot of other suspect entries that make the iffy ones even more suspect. But, Mary has always been creative with the truth for effect, and the book was very popular - true or not.

[Bluebrock]

I "enjoyed" the book if that is the right way of describing it when it was first published. I re read it around 5 years ago. By this time I realised Mary had been liberal with some facts. I do not especially blame her for that. The publishers wanted dirt dished and that is what they got. It made Mary a wealthy woman but I wish she had never written it. Neither Diana or Mary are saints but washing dirty linen in public is never nice. Looking back it has tarnished Mary's reputation as much as Diana's. I love both ladies but this part of the so called history was best kept private.

[kenneth]

She may have written a diary, but I don't believe the book was written from it - unless she was on LSD a lot as there are a lot of inaccuracies that could never have come from a diary otherwise [[things that didn't happen etc) I think she used a diary for the basis of selling the book - and, perhaps a point of reference at times, but there's a lot missing and a lot not true. Like how could her diary read: "May 5: Performed Some Things You Never Get Used To on Ed Sullivan" when Diana hadn't even recorded it yet and they never did the song on there? There's a lot of other suspect entries that make the iffy ones even more suspect. But, Mary has always been creative with the truth for effect, and the book was very popular - true or not.

Wow, was that really in there about the Sullivan show? Is it possible they recorded it for the show and just didn't perform it? I guess not even it hadn't even been recorded yet at Motown.

It would be an interesting thread to list and discuss the inaccuracies in the book [[and hopefully put some right or explain what someone might think was an inaccuracy but actually wasn't) but I suppose it would stir up too much bad blood amongst a few of us to be able to do the research and discuss it and just focus on "just the facts, ma'am."

[Bluebrock]

Wow, was that really in there about the Sullivan show? Is it possible they recorded it for the show and just didn't perform it? I guess not even it hadn't even been recorded yet at Motown.

It would be an interesting thread to list and discuss the inaccuracies in the book [[and hopefully put some right or explain what someone might think was an inaccuracy but actually wasn't) but I suppose it would stir up too much bad blood amongst a few of us to be able to do the research and discuss it and just focus on "just the facts, ma'am."

I think we should let sleeping dogs lie, but somehow I don't think certain people here will allow that to happen!

[jobeterob]

Sleeping dogs need a nudge from time to time to remind them of their erroneous ways.

And despite his flaws, this forum would be academic, dry and dead without Marv 2.

[Bluebrock]

Sleeping dogs need a nudge from time to time to remind them of their erroneous ways.

And despite his flaws, this forum would be academic, dry and dead without Marv 2.

Not sure I agree with that but we shall agree to disagree.

[supremester]

Some Things wasn't recorded until two days after "Ed Sullivan" and weeks before it's release. It's unlikely that they would have shot a Sullivan show - which was live btw, and then have it cut out before Miss Ross ever tried a vocal on it. There are other non existent TV appearances. It's just a lot of BS in that book that read well at the time. Mary had an agenda and it worked, but m A LOT of it is just plain hose shit - the entire tone of it ie: the sneaky, underhanded agenda to put Diana out front - was not that at all. She was seen as the goose that laid the golden egg and it was full speed ahead on her - it was all done in the light of day. No one gave a thought to hiding anything from Mary & Flo - just just assumed everyone was on board. Sadly, some people have believed it so long that even with full evidence to the contrary, they won't believe it, Like people who think there were dinosaurs in the garden of eden which they think was 2500 years ago. In 1987, Gil Askey told me about asll the bs in Mary's book - then the internet and video happened to poke more holes into it.

Just reading this article shows Mary will say ANYTHING. I know for a fact she's been advised to back pedal on Ross etc, because she REALLY wants a reunion.There are a lot of things like that - plus weird things that are missing or glossed over totally that should be there. This book was written from recollection - I'm sure there's a diary somewhere but can you imagine not listing ANY live shows for 4 years in your timeline? Anyway, I'm not "bashing" Mary, I do think she's full of BS. ANYONE who has ever heard of Diana Ross would not expect her to be friendly after Dreamgirl - and Mary couldn't get that??? She'll say ANYTHING.

Wow, was that really in there about the Sullivan show? Is it possible they recorded it for the show and just didn't perform it? I guess not even it hadn't even been recorded yet at Motown.

It would be an interesting thread to list and discuss the inaccuracies in the book [[and hopefully put some right or explain what someone might think was an inaccuracy but actually wasn't) but I suppose it would stir up too much bad blood amongst a few of us to be able to do the research and discuss it and just focus on "just the facts, ma'am."

[jobeterob]

I see Mickey Stevenson says if you want gossip read Mary's Book but he won't say anything bad about Diana ~ just that she worked way beyond all the rest.

[kenneth]

@supremester, that's very interesting. It often surprises me when people try to misrepresent things that are easily verifiable [[or not!). Thanks for the follow up.

[thanxal]

Some Things wasn't recorded until two days after "Ed Sullivan" and weeks before it's release. It's unlikely that they would have shot a Sullivan show - which was live btw, and then have it cut out before Miss Ross ever tried a vocal on it. There are other non existent TV appearances. It's just a lot of BS in that book that read well at the time. Mary had an agenda and it worked, but m A LOT of it is just plain hose shit - the entire tone of it ie: the sneaky, underhanded agenda to put Diana out front - was not that at all. She was seen as the goose that laid the golden egg and it was full speed ahead on her - it was all done in the light of day. No one gave a thought to hiding anything from Mary & Flo - just just assumed everyone was on board. Sadly, some people have believed it so long that even with full evidence to the contrary, they won't believe it, Like people who think there were dinosaurs in the garden of eden which they think was 2500 years ago. In 1987, Gil Askey told me about asll the bs in Mary's book - then the internet and video happened to poke more holes into it.

Just reading this article shows Mary will say ANYTHING. I know for a fact she's been advised to back pedal on Ross etc, because she REALLY wants a reunion.There are a lot of things like that - plus weird things that are missing or glossed over totally that should be there. This book was written from recollection - I'm sure there's a diary somewhere but can you imagine not listing ANY live shows for 4 years in your timeline? Anyway, I'm not "bashing" Mary, I do think she's full of BS. ANYONE who has ever heard of Diana Ross would not expect her to be friendly after Dreamgirl - and Mary couldn't get that??? She'll say ANYTHING.

What you write might be 100% true. My question is "does it matter"? Does it help to promote the Supremes by denigrating one of them? We have seen obnoxious behavior in other threads. Does negative plus negative equal something positive? Go out on the street. How many people even know who "the Supremes" or "Diana Ross" even are? Even if you're 100% correct, what does Diane gain and Mary lose?

[jobeterob]

It's just chat among the fans. It's nothing much.

Mary means next to nothing to the public these days; Diana is an icon but not that much known to the young public either.

[RobertZ]

It's just chat among the fans. It's nothing much.

Mary means next to nothing to the public these days; Diana is an icon but not that much known to the young public either.

What are these "young people" of which we speak? Anything I need to know [[or, care) about?