"TCB" Question

[RobertZ]

On the soundtrack to "TCB", when Diana Ross introduces "This is Mary Wilson" the audience is dead silent until Ms. Ross graciously adds "...folks?". Does anyone know why the audience did not applaud Mary immediately? Was she unpopular already?

[sup_fan]

i think they didn't realize they were expected to applaud. Diana had been talking for a min or two and they were all listening. i really don't think there's anything behind it

[rod_rick]

On the soundtrack to "TCB", when Diana Ross introduces "This is Mary Wilson" the audience is dead silent until Ms. Ross graciously adds "...folks?". Does anyone know why the audience did not applaud Mary immediately? Was she unpopular already?

Never thought that mary was unpopular, but that show edited to death. Hell was there an audience when that portion was taped.

[REDHOT]

Lol was Mary unpopular, you can't fool me RobertZ,don't respond Marv,that what this person want's,this person is like supremester lmao

[marv2]

Lol was Mary unpopular, you can't fool me RobertZ,don't respond Marv,that what this person want's,this person is like supremester lmao

Gotcha! Thanks.

[RobertZ]

Mary was the headliner at an oldies review here in NJ last evening - no reviews in yet but I'll post if they turn up. It's Richard Nader's review, if others wish to browse for news.

[RobertZ]

i think they didn't realize they were expected to applaud. Diana had been talking for a min or two and they were all listening. i really don't think there's anything behind it

That could be - it's just such a deafening silence!

[supremester]

You rang, REDHOT?
I think unpopular isn't quite the word for TCB time - just "less popular." Mary was always the distant third in DMF, and more of an equal with Cindy in DMC. After that, there was such dwindling interest that it didn't matter to most Supremes fans as only the least popular was still there with two replacements. Every time that door revolved, a huge chunk of fans split with it. Mary started to become " unpopular" after Flo left for scene stealing, and more so after Jean and Lynda split and she began taking over the group as the lead on TV when she was ill equipped to do so. It was then that the group really began to flounder and most of the fans that were still there were totally turned off by it - which is chronicled by their steady slippage. By the time she launched her solo career, she didn't have enough fans left to draw from and asked to rejoin Scherrie & Susaye, who declined. It wasn't until Dreamgirl came out that she became unpopular, but she also gained support for a time from those who believed what she wrote about being victimized. As the truth has unfolded, so has much of that support. QUOTE=RobertZ;287438]On the soundtrack to "TCB", when Diana Ross introduces "This is Mary Wilson" the audience is dead silent until Ms. Ross graciously adds "...folks?". Does anyone know why the audience did not applaud Mary immediately? Was she unpopular already?[/QUOTE]

[longtimefan]

i think they didn't realize they were expected to applaud. Diana had been talking for a min or two and they were all listening. i really don't think there's anything behind it

Supfan is correct. Seriously folks, do you honestly think that the crowd in that particular audience was united in holding back on their applause because Mary Wilson was unpopular? The original poster's question is legit, but what is the pleasure people find in putting down others? It is beyond my understanding -- and juvenile.

I've never taken the time to respond to one of these bashings, but today was the day.

[RobertZ]

Well, disagreements aside, it's a wonderful special and everyone involved, in front and behind the scenes was superb. We can all agree that an expanded DVD, with all performances [[I think the show was performed twice?) is both long overdue and an impossible dream!

[supremester]

Well, I don't know if the question was bashing or my answer was, but it wasn't intended to be. I said nothing about Mary that was negative about her character and there are lots of young people who do not know or understand The Supremes' history. I meet lots of young Ross fans at her shows who have these questions. Usually not about Mary's popularity - but of Flo's. They see Dreamgirls, read Mary's books and scratch their heads at her recordings and TV appearances. I've explained numerous times to newbies about how great DMF were and many just don't see it. Literally none get how Baby Love was their biggest record - it's the young folks' least fave HDH #1. I'm not bashing Mary at all [[although I can) I'm simply explaining her popularity history to someone who didn't know.

And, I agree the audience did't know to applaud so Miss Ross graciously [[always jealous and mean to the others) generated the applause for Mary & Cindy. Somehow nothing like that made the book.

Supfan is correct. Seriously folks, do you honestly think that the crowd in that particular audience was united in holding back on their applause because Mary Wilson was unpopular? The original poster's question is legit, but what is the pleasure people find in putting down others? It is beyond my understanding -- and juvenile.

I've never taken the time to respond to one of these bashings, but today was the day.

[captainjames]

Actually, I do remember that from the show and I am surprise Motown did not add claps sooner. However, you can hear Diana say ahhh !! and giggle once they do clap.

[jobeterob]

It was an odd spot; I just thought the audience didn't really know what to do.

But it is true that Touch ended the Supremes. I loved the song but I was a fan. To the public, it was "the end".

[supremester]

I stopped buying JMC singles after Ya Gotta Have Love , and then added Automatically Sunshine - a weak single, but it was weird not buying Supremes records. I bought Right On, New Ways and Mag 7.

I don't get Touch at all and smh when I'm told it's a lost hit.
Lyrically, it's stretching most of the time - but I do like "the tears in my eyes" line Mary has.
I hate Jean on it. She's striving too hard for technique. Initially, she's shrill and jarring after Mary's smokey reading and making it even more hard to follow with her phrasing. It should not have been a duet - I think Mary would have done it better.
That brings another problem: Mary's voice - she's quite effective on all of her parts but it doesn't quite sound distinctive enough.
It's disjointed and, as usual, I don't buy Jean's incessant ad libs. To me, this is Jean at her [[almost ) worst, yet Mary at her [[almost) best - just not compelling enough for radio.
It's disjointed.....a nice attempt, bu ultimately, one hot mess of a 45. No amount of promotion - blow jobs from Barbarella couldn't get this turkey played. I bet most programmers never even previewed it all the way through before they placed it in abeyance. Yet, JMC nuts revere it.
Touch was the second stinker in a row, bookended by two pretty good singles. They could easily have bounced back with a killer record, but they never got one - Motown was just out of material. They needed Thom Bell, Gamble & Huff, HDH, Peter Asher or Richard perry - not Jimmy Webb or Smokey - who was eight years between hits and Floy Joy - though 3 weeks in the lower top 20, was hardly an artistic triumph.

It was an odd spot; I just thought the audience didn't really know what to do.

But it is true that Touch ended the Supremes. I loved the song but I was a fan. To the public, it was "the end".

[REDHOT]

Hey supremester,you are so funny,i have said this before,you post toooo much,and you say same thing,over and over again, lmao

[sansradio]

Maybe it was just a case of the "Applause" sign not lighting up on cue. I don't believe it was an issue of Mary Wilson being unpopular.

[marybrewster]

This thread makes me LOL.

How much applause do you hear when Diana says "Hi, my name is Diana Ross"?

Wheeeeeeeeeee!

[REDHOT]

Marybrewster these people post things,like this for a negative reaction,i'v seen them do this many times,i bet they sit back and laugh,when they get the war going,the people that post these things, are too funny lol

[jobeterob]

Scherrie nearly managed to bring the Supremes back to "something" in 1976. It's just there wasn't another single on that album unless they were going to release "High Energy".

And I guess the issue then was Berry was going to have tell them "I don't care if this girl has been in the group two months; we are issuing High Energy as a single".

And I suppose he truly had washed his hands of the group by then after trying to cope with Pedro.

[supremester]

And YOU said you were not going to read or respond to me. I was going to delete it, but I got a phone call.

Hey supremester,you are so funny,i have said this before,you post toooo much,and you say same thing,over and over again, lmao

[stephanie]

Blowjobs from Barbarella......LOL Jane Fonda couldnt save the Supremes ..........LOL..this made my day!

[Cadeho]

I like the way the Tempts introduced themselves. Diana introduced the rest of the group with "this is" and "that's" like they were not allowed to speak for themselves. Well they weren't exactly... get back to the background!

[supremester]

You repeat yourself daily. You said you were not going to read my posts - keep your word and my repetition will not be an issue for you ever again - how wonderful is that?

PS: The ;punctuation thing is a nice touch, but a little of it goes a very long way........ you're good with characters - try a play.

Hey supremester,you are so funny,i have said this before,you post toooo much,and you say same thing,over and over again, lmao

[supremester]

I think it was beyond Scherrie by that point. The Supremes had been slipping since before Ross left and the slippage just never stopped. They had a few hits, but the group was unfamiliar and never was able to retain the album or live concert numbers DR&TS had. Both Ross and JMC had shitty release schedules - insane. Fans waited for months and got crap like Touch & Surrender as singles?? No one was gonna play those. Motown was slipping badly from lack of inhouse writing and producing excellence. Marvin, Smokey,, Stevie and Commodores did a lot of their own stuff. After A&S, HDH, Norman, Harvey, Johnny and others split, it was slim pickins around there. JMC stuff was good, but not radio friendly. They had nothing after Floy Joy which was gimmicky, but worked. Then Mary kept them off the label for that long time so it was years until He's My Man - which needed work to get on radio. It took Ross nearly 3 years to collect 9 songs for The Black Album. Gordy's assembly line plan was over by '72 and EVERYONE on the label suffered from it. Mary likes to blame the BS conspiracy theory, but it's horse crap. BG "washed his hands of the group" because Jean wouldn't do as he wanted and when he told Mary, SHE defied him as well, so maybe he said, "F____ You - I'm done with your ass." You don't spit in someone's eye and then blame them for not being there. However, he never pulled Motown's support of the group - that's just more Mary BS. Soon after the infamous hand washing, he booked them on Sullivan, had Jean re-re-re-record her vocals on UTLTTR until they were perfect and put the best Motown talent together for a killer new act. Those freshly washed hands bought a full page ad in trade mags congratulating The Supremes' Up The Ladder making the jump from 11 to #10. In the summer of '73 Ross' movie was #1 and brining in millions, her album was #1, her single was #1, her new album was #5, Marvin, Stevie, eddie were #1, J5 had a hit, Tempts had a hit, Commodores were happening - do you think he was gonna spend his time refereeing for sinking ship JML with new captain Pedro? I think he was tired of trying to cope with Pedro AND Mary. There's a lot of reasons The Supremes didn't work out and it was never a question of talent. I don't blame Motown for their fabled lack of interest when there was so much going on in the group that Motown did not approve.

QUOTE=jobeterob;287568]Scherrie nearly managed to bring the Supremes back to "something" in 1976. It's just there wasn't another single on that album unless they were going to release "High Energy".

And I guess the issue then was Berry was going to have tell them "I don't care if this girl has been in the group two months; we are issuing High Energy as a single".

And I suppose he truly had washed his hands of the group by then after trying to cope with Pedro.[/QUOTE]

[jobeterob]

Cuz both Pedro and Mary couldn't cope with the fact they might have ANOTHER hit singer, Diana like in the group - Susaye!

[marybrewster]

I think it was beyond Scherrie by that point. The Supremes had been slipping since before Ross left and the slippage just never stopped. They had a few hits, but the group was unfamiliar and never was able to retain the album or live concert numbers DR&TS had. Both Ross and JMC had shitty release schedules - insane. Fans waited for months and got crap like Touch & Surrender as singles?? No one was gonna play those. Motown was slipping badly from lack of inhouse writing and producing excellence. Marvin, Smokey,, Stevie and Commodores did a lot of their own stuff. After A&S, HDH, Norman, Harvey, Johnny and others split, it was slim pickins around there. JMC stuff was good, but not radio friendly. They had nothing after Floy Joy which was gimmicky, but worked. Then Mary kept them off the label for that long time so it was years until He's My Man - which needed work to get on radio. It took Ross nearly 3 years to collect 9 songs for The Black Album. Gordy's assembly line plan was over by '72 and EVERYONE on the label suffered from it. Mary likes to blame the BS conspiracy theory, but it's horse crap. BG "washed his hands of the group" because Jean wouldn't do as he wanted and when he told Mary, SHE defied him as well, so maybe he said, "F____ You - I'm done with your ass." You don't spit in someone's eye and then blame them for not being there. However, he never pulled Motown's support of the group - that's just more Mary BS. Soon after the infamous hand washing, he booked them on Sullivan, had Jean re-re-re-record her vocals on UTLTTR until they were perfect and put the best Motown talent together for a killer new act. Those freshly washed hands bought a full page ad in trade mags congratulating The Supremes' Up The Ladder making the jump from 11 to #10. In the summer of '73 Ross' movie was #1 and brining in millions, her album was #1, her single was #1, her new album was #5, Marvin, Stevie, eddie were #1, J5 had a hit, Tempts had a hit, Commodores were happening - do you think he was gonna spend his time refereeing for sinking ship JML with new captain Pedro? I think he was tired of trying to cope with Pedro AND Mary. There's a lot of reasons The Supremes didn't work out and it was never a question of talent. I don't blame Motown for their fabled lack of interest when there was so much going on in the group that Motown did not approve.

QUOTE=jobeterob;287568]Scherrie nearly managed to bring the Supremes back to "something" in 1976. It's just there wasn't another single on that album unless they were going to release "High Energy".

And I guess the issue then was Berry was going to have tell them "I don't care if this girl has been in the group two months; we are issuing High Energy as a single".

And I suppose he truly had washed his hands of the group by then after trying to cope with Pedro.

[/QUOTE]

Great post.

I've always taken the term "washed his [[Berry Gordy) hands of the group" to mean that what happened to the Supremes in 1970, is what happened to the Marvelettes and the Vandellas in 1964. These groups were pushed aside for the Supremes; the Supremes were pushed aside for the Jackson 5 and Diana Ross.

[supremester]

Except The Supremes - JMC/JML were never pushed aside and had a much better release schedule than Ross - but both were poor. Had Someday remained a Ross single, it may have gone smoother, but she left the group with nothing even planned for her debut single. The only thing The Supremes didn't get was BG working directly with them - and that was Mary's call - otherwise they got the best of everything except a decent release schedule. Maybe Frank wilson was slow, but it shouldn't have taken 2 months for follow ups to Up the Ladder, Ain't No Mountain, EGTRTL, Stoned love, Nathan Jones and Remember Me.

[Bluebrock]

Great post.

I've always taken the term "washed his [[Berry Gordy) hands of the group" to mean that what happened to the Supremes in 1970, is what happened to the Marvelettes and the Vandellas in 1964. These groups were pushed aside for the Supremes; the Supremes were pushed aside for the Jackson 5 and Diana Ross.[/QUOTE]
Good point! Much as I adored the early 70's Supremes they were not the cash cows the 60's Supremes had been. This line up still remains my favourite but I fully understand why Gordy lost interest when their early momentum ended. It's a pity someone else at Motown couldn't have taken them under their wing but it wasn't to be for whatever reason.

[supremester]

Well, they still had Gil doing their arrangements and building the act, plus Cholly and both reported to BG. What they didn't have was Ross' visual vision for the group and her input was crucial to DR&TS' look and staging. The sad thing is that with the immense talent of Jean, that she had to take Ross' place because just so many people would accept another new face. It wasn't fair to her, I think had they reformed a similar group with a new name, it would have been a fresh new start instead of slipping a totally different type of singer into Ross' place. Dennis replaced David so well because he was also a strong soul singer and fit in perfectly. JMC were a totally different group than DMC.

[RobertZ]

Well, they still had Gil doing their arrangements and building the act, plus Cholly and both reported to BG. What they didn't have was Ross' visual vision for the group and her input was crucial to DR&TS' look and staging. The sad thing is that with the immense talent of Jean, that she had to take Ross' place because just so many people would accept another new face. It wasn't fair to her, I think had they reformed a similar group with a new name, it would have been a fresh new start instead of slipping a totally different type of singer into Ross' place. Dennis replaced David so well because he was also a strong soul singer and fit in perfectly. JMC were a totally different group than DMC.

Well stated and I've said similar on other threads, ie: let the ladies be another group, especially after Jean left. Fact is most of America did not recognize them as "The Supremes". I remember well seeing one of the iterations on a variety show; 2 friends came into the room, looked at the tv and said "Who is that group?". "The Supremes", I replied. "No they're not" said the friends.

[supremester]

And with The Tempts, you still had 80% of the original lineup with 3 featured singers included. JMC was only 1/3 original and Mary was not a featured singer, so the group was The Supremes in name only. Like New Coke - some people liked it better, but most, like me, couldn't dig it.
And their records were weak. I listened to Touch and Jimmy webb last night and there are some good cuts on both - but nothing even remotely sounding like a hit single except Nathan Jones - an original, if flawed attempt at a smash. Frank Wilson had a great ear, but he didn't build singles well in that they have no peak - they just fade out. I think Everybody's, Nathan and Stoned Love would have charted higher with a bit more drama in their climaxes - maybe if he worked with Deke on them, they'd have gone to the top as they both had better potential. Up The Ladder was perfect, though.

[motony]

In the 70's the Supremes still sold more records then Honey Cone, Three Degrees and any other girl[[woman)group. They also got better gigs then Honey Cone or Three Degrees and I love both of those groups.

[REDHOT]

Lol supremester,again you're so nice and nasty when it comes to The Supremes without Diana,you and that other person,saying the same old negative things,no more lmao PLEASE

[supremester]

Yes they did - and almost every JMC 45 charted higher on sales charts than on Billboard - Ross' solo singles did the same. Interesting that both acts got more support from retail than radio, isn't it? I have no idea what kind of gigs Honey Cone got, but I can't magine they were very much of anything. Three Degrees did OK here in the US and was big internationally. The Supremes were light years more popular here than those two groups.

In the 70's the Supremes still sold more records then Honey Cone, Three Degrees and any other girl[[woman)group. They also got better gigs then Honey Cone or Three Degrees and I love both of those groups.

[sup_fan]

actually this is a pretty interesting thread! not too catty or smarmy lol

Supremester - very interesting points, although my opinion differs. i think the MJC lineup had the song quality and material. what they did not have was the almost maniacal management from Berry Gordy. look back at the DMF era. they recorded endless material - much of it quite excellent. but BG monitored absolutely every decision for the group and left nothing to chance. they recorded multiple sets like There's a Place for Us, Tribute to the Girls, Gold Gold Gold, Disney, etc plus many live lps. BG would pick and chose based on all sorts of elements.

with the MJC group, i think that's what was lacking and what BG meant by washing his hands. the 4 Tops duets were ill-timed, IMO. River Deep is super exciting but the lps are only pleasant enough. Mag 7 was released on top of New Ways and i think that greatly diluted the impact of that lp. then the 2 follow up lps overlap with Touch. basically, IMO, i was a bit too shotgun of an approach and not focused and strategic

also i think their image was becoming stale. when jean arrived, it helped to revive things. but only for a year or so. once Stoned Love passed, i think they were too stuck in sequins and the old group image. should have slowly evolved into a bit more of an updated image - less coy bubbly girls that do nothing but shop for clothes. i'm not sure if this was Mary's push or someone else.

and finally, i think Cindy's departure was a big impact. just couldn't have been timed worse. to introduce a new girl and try to continue the evolution of the 70s group was just too hard

[detmotownguy]

actually this is a pretty interesting thread! not too catty or smarmy lol

Supremester - very interesting points, although my opinion differs. i think the MJC lineup had the song quality and material. what they did not have was the almost maniacal management from Berry Gordy. look back at the DMF era. they recorded endless material - much of it quite excellent. but BG monitored absolutely every decision for the group and left nothing to chance. they recorded multiple sets like There's a Place for Us, Tribute to the Girls, Gold Gold Gold, Disney, etc plus many live lps. BG would pick and chose based on all sorts of elements.

with the MJC group, i think that's what was lacking and what BG meant by washing his hands. the 4 Tops duets were ill-timed, IMO. River Deep is super exciting but the lps are only pleasant enough. Mag 7 was released on top of New Ways and i think that greatly diluted the impact of that lp. then the 2 follow up lps overlap with Touch. basically, IMO, i was a bit too shotgun of an approach and not focused and strategic

also i think their image was becoming stale. when jean arrived, it helped to revive things. but only for a year or so. once Stoned Love passed, i think they were too stuck in sequins and the old group image. should have slowly evolved into a bit more of an updated image - less coy bubbly girls that do nothing but shop for clothes. i'm not sure if this was Mary's push or someone else.

and finally, i think Cindy's departure was a big impact. just couldn't have been timed worse. to introduce a new girl and try to continue the evolution of the 70s group was just too hard

Good point on "stale" image and Cindy leaving. I think that Cindy's leaving had. Bigger impact than we realize.

[RobertZ]

Good point on "stale" image and Cindy leaving. I think that Cindy's leaving had. Bigger impact than we realize.

I agree all around. It's often forgotten that a "second wave" legion of Diana Ross & The Supremes fans solidified after the first airing of "TCB" [[including myself), so when Cindy left the group became "Supremes" in name only. Plus the comments about image, etc are all right on [[no pun intended). People were looking for something new.

[thommg]

To me, Berry Gordy was the visionary and Diana Ross was his muse. He pushed Diana and managed every aspect of her career through the Supremes, then solo and the movies. There was no way he was going to split his attention between Diana and the new Supremes. He wanted to be a well-rounded mogul and it was going to happen with Diana Ross. The problem for those still recording for Motown was, the people he put in place to run it didn't have the vision he had. They didn't have the drive he had. The self-contained acts [[Marvin, Stevie, Commodores) succeeded - even the Jackson 5 got handed over to Suzanne DePasse, who continued BG's passion for that group. If someone else had Gordy's vision then Motown would have been one of the major recording labels in the 1970's. They weren't, but they were successful enough. Just my 2 cents worth of thoughts on this.

[RossHolloway]

To me, Berry Gordy was the visionary and Diana Ross was his muse. He pushed Diana and managed every aspect of her career through the Supremes, then solo and the movies. There was no way he was going to split his attention between Diana and the new Supremes. He wanted to be a well-rounded mogul and it was going to happen with Diana Ross. The problem for those still recording for Motown was, the people he put in place to run it didn't have the vision he had. They didn't have the drive he had. The self-contained acts [[Marvin, Stevie, Commodores) succeeded - even the Jackson 5 got handed over to Suzanne DePasse, who continued BG's passion for that group. If someone else had Gordy's vision then Motown would have been one of the major recording labels in the 1970's. They weren't, but they were successful enough. Just my 2 cents worth of thoughts on this.

I agree with what you wrote but would add a bit more. I recall Berry Gordy saying in an interview that by the early 70's he/Motown had accomplished everything musically and that he wanted to do the same in movies. It was a combination of this pivot and the departure of HDH in '68 that really changed Motown. HDH's departure impacted not just the Supremes, the Four Tops and Martha & The Vandellas, it impacted the entire company and left a song writing and production void that was never filled. A lot of people point to the day after Diana Ross's & The Supreme's Farwell performance and the disagreement between Mary Wilson and Berry Gordy as the flash point of the decline of the New Supreme's, but looking at the bigger picture it was more than just an issue between Mr. Gordy and the Supremes. Look no further than the status of most of the more successful and popular groups of the 1960's and look who left the label in the early-mid 70's:

Brenda Holloway - left in 1968
The Isley Brothers -left in 1968/69
The Marvelettes - disbanded/stopped recording in 1972
Martha & The Vandellas- disbanded in 1972
The Spinners -left in 1972
The Four Tops- left in 1972
Glady Knight & The Pips- left in 1973
The Jackson Five - left in 1974
The Miracles - left in 1976/77
The Temptations- left in 1977
The Supremes - disbanded in 1977

And if memory serves me correctly Berry Gordy had no idea that the Four Tops and Gladys Knight & The Pips had left the label. That tells me that for the most part Mr. Gordy had totally delegated the running of Motown to others, whom like you stated, did not have the same vision as Berry Gordy.

[jobeterob]

My belief is the Supremes stopped making money pretty quickly ~ well before Floy Joy. They started having internal problems. I think they were irrelevant to Berry Gordy; they were "out of sight out of mind" and any disagreement he had with any of them may have been important to them, but meant nothing to him.

When they came to his attention, I'm sure he would have provided basic support because of where they had been with him ~ basic being Billboard and Trade Magazine ads. But if they couldn't pull anything off, and they couldn't, he simply left them to their own devices.

[Bluebrock]

The Supremes record sales didn't make much money after 1972. They were still a big draw on the live circuit but the quality of their albums began to dip. It was hard enough for Motown to sell good albums - right on and nwbls , so they really had their work cut out selling Floy Joy and the Jimmy Webb album which for me was just so dull! By the time the "new" Supremes emerged too many personnel changes and too much time had elapsed to save the day. The public quite simply lost interest. I didn't but I was in a minority.

[thommg]

When they came to his attention, I'm sure he would have provided basic support because of where they had been with him ~ basic being Billboard and Trade Magazine ads. But if they couldn't pull anything off, and they couldn't, he simply left them to their own devices.

I think, by that point, Gordy had left everyone to their own devices because his interests were elsewhere and very specific. I don't think this is just a Supremes centric situation.