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  1. #51
    supremester Guest
    No one got trampled in The Supremes. I wonder how many girls in The Brewster Projects, when asked if they would like to sing bg ONLY in the biggest group in US history and become famous worldwide and make a ton of dough would say, "Oh NO! THAT wouldn't be fair. I'M not going to be trampled on. I'll go back to the projects, thanks anyway." Berry only signed The primettes because of Ross. There would be no Supremes without her. Zero. No Smokey audition. No Berry's interest asking to hear Ross' song again. Nothing. Berry didn't like Mary's voice and thought Flo was too ghetto. He didn't HAVE to like them. He told them what he wanted: Diana the sole lead. They agreed. They should have left Motown or shut up about it after they agreed. No one held a gun to their heads to sing bg - they agreed. People act like Berry had an obligation to support talent he didn't believe in. It's nuts. No one sought the services of Mary and/or Flo after they left Motown either. No one at all. HDH started Invictus right there in Detroit and could have signed either. Gil & Ross had to fight Berry to get people back in after The Copa and again to get Mary her spot on the song -he agreed only after Ross was sick and told Berry she needed the rest. Berry didn't WANT Flo or Mary to have any leads or to speak in interviews. . Miss Ross didn't have to give up People - she wanted Mary & Flo to have something and Mary knows that. She stabbed Ross in the back for it. Those are facts. No one at Motown felt Mary or Flo "was competition" for Ross - that BS came later by innuendo in Dreamgirl where Mary talked about People being taken away at The Copa, but forget to add that Flo would be singing it again just 3 weeks later - AND that Mary would be duetting on it with Flo on it. I wonder why Mary would forget to say that????? Hmmmmmm..... Berry & Diana did nothing sneaky, devious or underhanded - the agenda persued was exactly the agenda presented /agreed to DMF in 1963. They should have left then. Not much would be different in the long run: Ross would still have gotten rave reviews for her show last night in Atlanta.The Supremes had 3 31's and two hit albums before they were on Ed Sullivan. I think Flo & Mary were grea - the best possible Supremes - but not essential. Harvey Fuqua told me A LOT about the workings of the group, and his version doesn't jell with Marys, but it does with Gil & Colly's and Mrs Powell - ALL of which I have on tape.


    QUOTE=BigAl;285603]Goodness knows I'm no champion of Diane by any stretch of the imagination, but it can't be argued that she was the best choice to lead the group for the kind of crossover success which Gordy envisioned. In addition, she had the obsessive drive to push herself tirelessly to get to the top, no matter what it took [[and, sadly, no matter who might get trampled in the process). But, as they say, that's showbiz. HDH must be credited for how they were able to tailor material brilliantly to her reedy voice to maximum effect. Mary and Florence were indispensable in making the group unique, however. Someone once termed The Supremes as being slick [[Diane), sexy [[Mary), and Sassy [[Flo), and that interplay was essential. Diane as a solo could not have managed it, nor could Mary or Flo, either, for that matter. It's regrettable [[nay, almost criminal) that the latter two were eventually so underutilized. It was my opinion, then and now, that, while Diane was the best choice to lead the group on the singles, no contest, Mary and Flo ought to have been allowed plenty of leads on albums and especially in live performance, rather the just the occasional one-off. This would not have hampered Diane's success one bit, but that wasn't the plan as Diane and Berry saw it, and, for better or for worse, they were in charge.[/QUOTE]
    Last edited by supremester; 05-24-2015 at 04:40 AM.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by supremester View Post
    No one got trampled in The Supremes. I wonder how many girls in The Brewster Projects, when asked if they would like to sing bg ONLY in the biggest group in US history and become famous worldwide and make a ton of dough would say, "Oh NO! THAT wouldn't be fair. I'M not going to be trampled on. I'll go back to the projects, thanks anyway." Berry only signed The primettes because of Ross. There would be no Supremes without her. Zero. No Smokey audition. No Berry's interest asking to hear Ross' song again. Nothing. Berry didn't like Mary's voice and thought Flo was too ghetto. He didn't HAVE to like them. He told them what he wanted: Diana the sole lead. They agreed. They should have left Motown or shut up about it after they agreed. No one held a gun to their heads to sing bg - they agreed. People act like Berry had an obligation to support talent he didn't believe in. It's nuts. No one sought the services of Mary and/or Flo after they left Motown either. No one at all. HDH started Invictus right there in Detroit and could have signed either. Gil & Ross had to fight Berry to get people back in after The Copa and again to get Mary her spot on the song -he agreed only after Ross was sick and told Berry she needed the rest. Berry didn't WANT Flo or Mary to have any leads or to speak in interviews. . Miss Ross didn't have to give up People - she wanted Mary & Flo to have something and Mary knows that. She stabbed Ross in the back for it. Those are facts. No one at Motown felt Mary or Flo "was competition" for Ross - that BS came later by innuendo in Dreamgirl where Mary talked about People being taken away at The Copa, but forget to add that Flo would be singing it again just 3 weeks later - AND that Mary would be duetting on it with Flo on it. I wonder why Mary would forget to say that????? Hmmmmmm..... Berry & Diana did nothing sneaky, devious or underhanded - the agenda persued was exactly the agenda presented /agreed to DMF in 1963. They should have left then. Not much would be different in the long run: Ross would still have gotten rave reviews for her show last night in Atlanta.The Supremes had 3 31's and two hit albums before they were on Ed Sullivan. I think Flo & Mary were grea - the best possible Supremes - but not essential. Harvey Fuqua told me A LOT about the workings of the group, and his version doesn't jell with Marys, but it does with Gil & Colly's and Mrs Powell - ALL of which I have on tape.

    That's right. Go ahead and throw away whole chunks of the story in order to continue to foster your "Diana Ross Agenda!" LOL! First of all when Florence asked Mary and Mary asked Diane to join the Primettes, they were not World Famous or knew they would earn millions [[most of which they would never see or enjoy themselves.......). The only things the Smokey Robinson audition yielded the girls were Smokey stealing guitarist Marv Tarplin away and Berry Gordy brushing them off by telling them to go finish high school!

    The girls started hanging out a Hitsville everyday until they needed THEM to do handclaps on a Mary Wells record. Then THEYwere used for background vocals on another record,etc,etc until Berry noticed that THEY were serious about singing and signed THEM to Motown in January 1961. That's what really happened! There would have never been a Supremes were it not for Florence Ballard who started the Primettes. Diane would not even have had a recording career because her father was against it until Paul Williams and Eddie Kendricks persuaded him to let her join the Primettes!

    You claim that Berry Gordy did not like Mary Wilson's voice. Berry gave Mary Wilson the song "Baby Don't Go", a song he himself had written for her to record. He not only recorded it on her, he released it on the album "Meet the Supremes". He never told Florence that she sounded too ghetto. That sounds racist coming from you to begin with. True he wanted to crossover to white audiences, so he used Diane's novelty sounding voice to do it, backed by Florence and Mary. How were Mary and Florence going to just leave Motown when they were under contract? Why on Earth would Berry Gordy put them under contract if he did not like the way either of them sang? You make no sense whatsoever.
    Last edited by marv2; 05-24-2015 at 08:39 AM.

  3. #53
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    Lol how trrue! Even Diana has praised Florences voice. Didn't Mr. Ross think daughter Barbara had a better singing voice?

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    Quote Originally Posted by captainjames View Post
    Well, with all being said could've, would've , should have ....Diana was the lead voice that took the Supremes to Super Stardom. Sorry, that we can't re-write history and thank you HDH, Berry, the Andantes and the Funk Brothers. It was an amazing ride.
    Wouda, Couda, Shouda !! The article complimented the three woman as a group with perfect harmony. Harmony that was not utilized enough. Their hits were done with a lead singer and background singers. The HDH songs are still being sung by some members of that group fifty years later. Would these songs be remembered fifty years later if a Supreme other than Diana sang the lead on the record? I guess we will never know.



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    Quote Originally Posted by marv2 View Post
    Berry gave Mary Wilson the song "Baby Don't Go", a song he himself had written for her to record. He not only recorded it on her, he released it on the album "Meet the Supremes".
    i had no idea Mr Gordy wrote Baby Dont Go for Mary Wilson. Wonder why it wasnt a hit. With Gordy behind it Im real surprised it didnt go anywhere.

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    It's too bad this thread looks in danger of going South.

    I thought it was a great article. Definitely, the 3-part harmonies added much to the early Supremes' success. There's no doubt about it. This is the group my beloved grandmother used to say about, "I don't know why, but I just love those 3 girls!"

    As the years went by, I know that myself and many others I knew bemoaned the more antiseptic sound of the records and the backgrounds Of course, we had no idea who the Andantes were; we just wondered why the backgrounds became so "thin". Of course, we attributed it to Gordy's promotion of Diane's celebrity status and to a large degree, I think that was true.

    So in my opinion, the Supremes' career with Diane on lead there definitely existed a "before" and an "after." The early days all 3 Supremes were known, loved and sang their you know what off. The later days the background singers were obviously relegated to the, well, background. I think the group suffered from this as they lost a lot of their group identity.

    But that was clearly the intention to help Diane springboard to her own solo spot.

    "Better" voices is a tricky concept. Certainly, singers can be technically better than others. Florence may have had a stronger voice, though on some performances I find her voice lacks excitement. [["O Holy Night" comes to mind; it's a turgid arrangement and Florence's voice sounds dull and lifeless.) I don't see how Mary could be viewed as having a technically better voice than Diane, but I'm not an expert at judging such things.

    But Diane's voice obviously had the quirkiness, the X-factor, the sound that people remembered. I remember one critic wrote once of her "Ross got more mileage out of her sighs and pauses for breath than she did her own vocals at times." She knew how to put over a song, and her voice was obviously the most memorable.

    To me, this takes nothing away from the others. As someone else pointed out, it's unlikely the group would have had the success it did without Diane. The "new" Supremes were a different group which added their own strengths with Jean, and then of course later with Scherrie and Susaye.

    Clearly the latter day lineups all represented different phases of the girls' career. But I think even the Diane years can be divided into two phases, one extremely strong, and the later one, where the group became secondary and Diane was clearly in the forefront. The material, although tailor made for her, was largely weaker aside from "Love Child." I like "Someday" now but thought it dull and monotonous back then. But clearly Gordy was just searching for a way for Diane to exit the group with a hit song behind her, and certainly "Someday" was perfect for that.
    Last edited by kenneth; 05-24-2015 at 11:38 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by luke View Post
    Lol how trrue! Even Diana has praised Florences voice. Didn't Mr. Ross think daughter Barbara had a better singing voice?
    Yes she did praise Flo's voice. Mr. Ross did say that about Bobbie and also told Paul Williams that they should probably take her instead because Diane......did not have a "Group Mentality"!

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    Quote Originally Posted by marv2 View Post
    Yes she did praise Flo's voice. Mr. Ross did say that about Bobbie and also told Paul Williams that they should probably take her instead because Diane......did not have a "Group Mentality"!
    "Bobbie" lol. You seriously think of yourself as the spokesperson for the Supremes or this great Ross insider. Dianes sisters name is Barbara unless she personaly ask you to call her "Bobbie" lol Which we all know she didnt and if Barbara knew the malice and filth you say about her sister Diane on youtube she would probably kick you where the sun dont shine.

    you are are real real funny. Bobby. lol.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kenneth View Post
    It's too bad this thread looks in danger of going South.

    I thought it was a great article. Definitely, the 3-part harmonies added much to the early Supremes' success. There's no doubt about it. This is the group my beloved grandmother used to say about, "I don't know why, but I just love those 3 girls!"

    As the years went by, I know that myself and many others I knew bemoaned the more antiseptic sound of the records and the backgrounds Of course, we had no idea who the Andantes were; we just wondered why the backgrounds became so "thin". Of course, we attributed it to Gordy's promotion of Diane's celebrity status and to a large degree, I think that was true.

    So in my opinion, the Supremes' career with Diane on lead there definitely existed a "before" and an "after." The early days all 3 Supremes were known, loved and sang their you know what off. The later days the background singers were obviously relegated to the, well, background. I think the group suffered from this as they lost a lot of their group identity.

    But that was clearly the intention to help Diane springboard to her own solo spot.

    "Better" voices is a tricky concept. Certainly, singers can be technically better than others. Florence may have had a stronger voice, though on some performances I find her voice lacks excitement. [["O Holy Night" comes to mind; it's a turgid arrangement and Florence's voice sounds dull and lifeless.) I don't see how Mary could be viewed as having a technically better voice than Diane, but I'm not an expert at judging such things.

    But Diane's voice obviously had the quirkiness, the X-factor, the sound that people remembered. I remember one critic wrote once of her "Ross got more mileage out of her sighs and pauses for breath than she did her own vocals at times." She knew how to put over a song, and her voice was obviously the most memorable.

    To me, this takes nothing away from the others. As someone else pointed out, it's unlikely the group would have had the success it did without Diane. The "new" Supremes were a different group which added their own strengths with Jean, and then of course later with Scherrie and Susaye.

    Clearly the latter day lineups all represented different phases of the girls' career. But I think even the Diane years can be divided into two phases, one extremely strong, and the later one, where the group became secondary and Diane was clearly in the forefront. The material, although tailor made for her, was largely weaker aside from "Love Child." I like "Someday" now but thought it dull and monotonous back then. But clearly Gordy was just searching for a way for Diane to exit the group with a hit song behind her, and certainly "Someday" was perfect for that.

    And there go the voice of reason my dears.

    thank you Kenneth.

    fondly,

    Roberta

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    Quote Originally Posted by Roberta75 View Post
    And there go the voice of reason my dears.

    thank you Kenneth.

    fondly,

    Roberta
    Thanks Roberta! I try!!!

  12. #62
    supremester Guest
    DREAMGIRL: MY LIFE AS A SUPREME - MIDDLE OF PAGE 30

    "She [[flo) had been approached by a member of a male vocal trio called The Primes and their manager about forming a girls group to perform with his clients. Two other girls had already been recruited."

    IS THAT GOOD ENOUGH FOR YOU? Flo started NOTHING. Mary invited NO ONE. This story has been told a thousand times the same way, girlfriend.

    You can call me racist all you want, everyone who knows me - including my mixed kids, don't think of me that way. I used "ghetto" because I wouldn't use the term Harvey used to describe Flo. "Ghetto" is much more complementary.

    Not only did Berry not like Mary's voice - I'm told he just plain didn't care for Mary period. No one in Artist Development was in favor of giving Mary a lead. Even May's friend Cholly. Like Taylor Cox said, I'll put my money on Diana because I wanna get paid of Friday." Berry told Mary to her face that she couldn't sing - it's no secret. Mary was not allowed to lead The 70's Supremes - only Lynda & Jean were - if it was up to Mary, per her book, they had to cancel.

    I've said many times I love Mary's voice on ballads, Love Baby Don't Go and LOVED Flo in the group. This is in response to Diana trampling anyone - that's total BS. Berry, Harvey, Gil, Maxine and Cholly all agreed that it was all about Diana. That doesn't diminish the others per se', but the ONLY reason Mary got any solos at all - AT ALL - it at the behest of Gil and Diana. The only thing getting trampled is the truth. Diana didn't WANT all the responsibility on her every night, all night, 3x a night. She was exhausted. Gil knew it. And, sadly, Mary knows this too, just forgot to put it in her book somehow. Well, with SO much to remember............


    Quote Originally Posted by marv2 View Post
    That's right. Go ahead and throw away whole chunks of the story in order to continue to foster your "Diana Ross Agenda!" LOL! First of all when Florence asked Mary and Mary asked Diane to join the Primettes, they were not World Famous or knew they would earn millions [[most of which they would never see or enjoy themselves.......). The only things the Smokey Robinson audition yielded the girls were Smokey stealing guitarist Marv Tarplin away and Berry Gordy brushing them off by telling them to go finish high school!

    The girls started hanging out a Hitsville everyday until they needed THEM to do handclaps on a Mary Wells record. Then THEYwere used for background vocals on another record,etc,etc until Berry noticed that THEY were serious about singing and signed THEM to Motown in January 1961. That's what really happened! There would have never been a Supremes were it not for Florence Ballard who started the Primettes. Diane would not even have had a recording career because her father was against it until Paul Williams and Eddie Kendricks persuaded him to let her join the Primettes!

    You claim that Berry Gordy did not like Mary Wilson's voice. Berry gave Mary Wilson the song "Baby Don't Go", a song he himself had written for her to record. He not only recorded it on her, he released it on the album "Meet the Supremes". He never told Florence that she sounded too ghetto. That sounds racist coming from you to begin with. True he wanted to crossover to white audiences, so he used Diane's novelty sounding voice to do it, backed by Florence and Mary. How were Mary and Florence going to just leave Motown when they were under contract? Why on Earth would Berry Gordy put them under contract if he did not like the way either of them sang? You make no sense whatsoever.

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    One of the Supreme books stated that Betty was able to keep Diana in line when they were the Primettees which helped group cohesion.

  14. #64
    supremester Guest
    I've been saying the same thing for years, Ken. So little was put into the group's recordings after HDH left. I don't know why. Those hodge podge albums from 68&69 are awful - with Diana hoare on some and lousy material on others.

    No one knows who is better - only who they like. One can assume with the phenomenal success of The Supremes and Ross' subsequent successes for 45 years, she was the "best" choice to lead The Supremes envisioned by Berry Gordy.

    Quote Originally Posted by kenneth View Post
    It's too bad this thread looks in danger of going South.

    I thought it was a great article. Definitely, the 3-part harmonies added much to the early Supremes' success. There's no doubt about it. This is the group my beloved grandmother used to say about, "I don't know why, but I just love those 3 girls!"

    As the years went by, I know that myself and many others I knew bemoaned the more antiseptic sound of the records and the backgrounds Of course, we had no idea who the Andantes were; we just wondered why the backgrounds became so "thin". Of course, we attributed it to Gordy's promotion of Diane's celebrity status and to a large degree, I think that was true.

    So in my opinion, the Supremes' career with Diane on lead there definitely existed a "before" and an "after." The early days all 3 Supremes were known, loved and sang their you know what off. The later days the background singers were obviously relegated to the, well, background. I think the group suffered from this as they lost a lot of their group identity.

    But that was clearly the intention to help Diane springboard to her own solo spot.

    "Better" voices is a tricky concept. Certainly, singers can be technically better than others. Florence may have had a stronger voice, though on some performances I find her voice lacks excitement. [["O Holy Night" comes to mind; it's a turgid arrangement and Florence's voice sounds dull and lifeless.) I don't see how Mary could be viewed as having a technically better voice than Diane, but I'm not an expert at judging such things.

    But Diane's voice obviously had the quirkiness, the X-factor, the sound that people remembered. I remember one critic wrote once of her "Ross got more mileage out of her sighs and pauses for breath than she did her own vocals at times." She knew how to put over a song, and her voice was obviously the most memorable.

    To me, this takes nothing away from the others. As someone else pointed out, it's unlikely the group would have had the success it did without Diane. The "new" Supremes were a different group which added their own strengths with Jean, and then of course later with Scherrie and Susaye.

    Clearly the latter day lineups all represented different phases of the girls' career. But I think even the Diane years can be divided into two phases, one extremely strong, and the later one, where the group became secondary and Diane was clearly in the forefront. The material, although tailor made for her, was largely weaker aside from "Love Child." I like "Someday" now but thought it dull and monotonous back then. But clearly Gordy was just searching for a way for Diane to exit the group with a hit song behind her, and certainly "Someday" was perfect for that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by supremester View Post
    DREAMGIRL: MY LIFE AS A SUPREME - MIDDLE OF PAGE 30

    "She [[flo) had been approached by a member of a male vocal trio called The Primes and their manager about forming a girls group to perform with his clients. Two other girls had already been recruited."
    Look, I done told you twice on this forum in the last year how it all went down! You could ask me a third time with Mary standing right next to me and it will be the way I said it and Mary will tell you ......Marv has it right!

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    Quote Originally Posted by luke View Post
    One of the Supreme books stated that Betty was able to keep Diana in line when they were the Primettees which helped group cohesion.
    Betty McGlown-Travis was the last person to join the Primettes and stayed for less than a year so your theory about Betty keeping Diane in line dont make a lot of sense.

    Roberta


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    Quote Originally Posted by luke View Post
    One of the Supreme books stated that Betty was able to keep Diana in line when they were the Primettees which helped group cohesion.
    That is true. Diane had a bit of that character "Sister" from "Sparkle" in her. She as a wild tomboy and Betty would have to threaten to kick her ass if she didn't straighten up. That is the only thing Diane understood clearly in those days LOL!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Roberta75 View Post
    Betty McGlown-Travis was the last person to join the Primettes and stayed for less than a year so your theory about Betty keeping Diane in line dont make a lot of sense.

    Roberta
    Yes it does. I wish Betty and /or Pete her cousin were still around they could tell ya how it was.

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    Quote Originally Posted by marv2 View Post
    That is true. Diane had a bit of that character "Sister" from "Sparkle" in her. She as a wild tomboy and Betty would have to threaten to kick her ass if she didn't straighten up. That is the only thing Diane understood clearly in those days LOL!
    Did you like the gowns in Sparkle marv2? Which Sparkle did you like best the 1976 or the 2012 remake? I loved the clothes in the Irene Cara originol.

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    Quote Originally Posted by marv2 View Post
    Yes it does. I wish Betty and /or Pete her cousin were still around they could tell ya how it was.
    Oh well at least Betty and cousin Pete told you how it was and thank the Good Lord youre sharing the information with us.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Roberta75 View Post
    Oh well at least Betty and cousin Pete told you how it was and thank the Good Lord youre sharing the information with us.

    Man, did you forget to meet Redhot again....................?

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    Quote Originally Posted by supremester View Post
    I've been saying the same thing for years, Ken. So little was put into the group's recordings after HDH left. I don't know why. Those hodge podge albums from 68&69 are awful - with Diana hoare on some and lousy material on others.

    No one knows who is better - only who they like. One can assume with the phenomenal success of The Supremes and Ross' subsequent successes for 45 years, she was the "best" choice to lead The Supremes envisioned by Berry Gordy.
    Thanks supremester...K

  23. #73
    supremester Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by marv2 View Post
    That's right. Go ahead and throw away whole chunks of the story in order to continue to foster your "Diana Ross Agenda!" LOL! First of all when Florence asked Mary and Mary asked Diane to join the Primettes, they were not World Famous or knew they would earn millions [[most of which they would never see or enjoy themselves.......). The only things the Smokey Robinson audition yielded the girls were Smokey stealing guitarist Marv Tarplin away and Berry Gordy brushing them off by telling them to go finish high school!

    Marv, honey, that was an analogy. A "what if" to point out that, had they known how it would turn out, would they have preferred not to be involved? That''s all. All the whining makes one wonder how many projects girls would have been unhappy. I wasn't saying that's how it was, girlfriend.


    [[QUOTE: You claim that Berry Gordy did not like Mary Wilson's voice. Berry gave Mary Wilson the song "Baby Don't Go", a song he himself had written for her to record. He not only recorded it on her, he released it on the album "Meet the Supremes". He never told Florence that she sounded too ghetto. That sounds racist coming from you to begin with. True he wanted to crossover to white audiences, so he used Diane's novelty sounding voice to do it, backed by Florence and Mary. How were Mary and Florence going to just leave Motown when they were under contract? Why on Earth would Berry Gordy put them under contract if he did not like the way either of them sang? You make no sense whatsoever.
    He recorded one song on her and not another for 17 years. TOLD her she couldn't sing. she said. All I'm saying is what Harvey & Gil told me Berry thought. They built the Supremes' show. Just the facts. Clearly Mary was good on her solos. Gordy still didn't like her. He wouldn't support the 80's Supremes if Mary sang leads. None of this is news to you. All I'm saying is she had many chances to leave and go where she could be happy, treated to her liking and sing all the leads she wanted. Gordy would have happily released her and Flo in '63 I'm sure and added Sandra Tilley, Marlene, Barbara Randolf - whoever. None would be as good as Mary & Flo, but I think essentially, their success would have been similar - just as Smokey said.

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    Quote Originally Posted by supremester View Post
    He recorded one song on her and not another for 17 years. TOLD her she couldn't sing. she said. All I'm saying is what Harvey & Gil told me Berry thought. They built the Supremes' show. Just the facts. Clearly Mary was good on her solos. Gordy still didn't like her. He wouldn't support the 80's Supremes if Mary sang leads. None of this is news to you. All I'm saying is she had many chances to leave and go where she could be happy, treated to her liking and sing all the leads she wanted. Gordy would have happily released her and Flo in '63 I'm sure and added Sandra Tilley, Marlene, Barbara Randolf - whoever. None would be as good as Mary & Flo, but I think essentially, their success would have been similar - just as Smokey said.
    Ahhh , he told her that to get her to stop pestering him on one day! He told people he would not marry Diane because she was too much of a bitch. Does that mean he meant that?

    Gil nor Harvey were not members of the Supremes. Did Gil ever get his drinking under control?
    Last edited by marv2; 05-24-2015 at 02:22 PM. Reason: left out the word not.

  25. #75
    supremester Guest
    So you say Mary is lying in her book and interviews? Why would Mary lie about it? Is she ashamed of bring Ross into the group? We all know there are lots of untruths in Marys books, but why would she lie about this, girlfriend? LOL Oh, she's not. YOU are.


    Quote Originally Posted by marv2 View Post
    Look, I done told you twice on this forum in the last year how it all went down! You could ask me a third time with Mary standing right next to me and it will be the way I said it and Mary will tell you ......Marv has it right!

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    Quote Originally Posted by supremester View Post
    So you say Mary is lying in her book and interviews? Why would Mary lie about it? Is she ashamed of bring Ross into the group? We all know there are lots of untruths in Marys books, but why would she lie about this, girlfriend? LOL Oh, she's not. YOU are.
    I never said or ever will say Mary lied about anything. She simply could not remember all the details from so many years ago. She had to interview many people and receive info from many sources to document many events to an incredible life story she has lived. Mary's book is the Gospel when it comes to the Supremes . Anyone that doesn't like it simply does not like the fact that it had to cast Diana Ross in a negative light in order to tell the truth behind their story.

    I have no reason to lie, nor does Mary Wilson. Now Diana Ross fanatics have plenty of reasons to lie because that book destroyed Diane for good in America and she has not recovered yet. She had a chance to tell her side,but refused to let Mary interview her for the book and the rest is history.

  27. #77
    supremester Guest
    Oh, so Mary couldn't remember how The Primettes began or how she met Diana Ross? Is that what you are saying? Maxine and Flo had the same memory problems? Paul & Eddie had the same memory probems? Diana had the same memory problems?

    I think YOU have a problem! You remember you: the guy who stated Mary got her Hollywood Palace solo because the asst director told Berry Gordy he wanted it to be fair and then you kicked that dude out of MWOS for checking with Mary? LOLOLOL, Sorry Missy, I think it's your memory.


    Quote Originally Posted by marv2 View Post
    I never said or ever will say Mary lied about anything. She simply could not remember all the details from so many years ago. She had to interview many people and receive info from many sources to document many events to an incredible life story she has lived. Mary's book is the Gospel when it comes to the Supremes . Anyone that doesn't like it simply does not like the fact that it had to cast Diana Ross in a negative light in order to tell the truth behind their story.

    I have no reason to lie, nor does Mary Wilson. Now Diana Ross fanatics have plenty of reasons to lie because that book destroyed Diane for good in America and she has not recovered yet. She had a chance to tell her side,but refused to let Mary interview her for the book and the rest is history.

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    @Marv2, as much as I love Mary and believe her books to be great contributions to the Supremes legacy, there are some inaccuracies in them. Mary, for example, never revealed that Diane had helped her save her house from foreclosure even though it came out later [[I forget where). That seemed to be a deliberate omission so as not to give Diane credit where credit was due. An omission may not be a lie per se, but it certainly led to a misrepresentation of, as we say, a "material fact." She did leave that out, didn't she? Tell me if I'm wrong.

    I think Mary and Diane are like sisters in a love-hate relationship. No matter what, they have decades-old hurts from long ago that bubble to the surface now and then.

    I mostly respect Mary's very detailed accounting of the early years. Her recall of names, dates and places was phenomenal. I believe she mentions in the book she'd kept a journal. No one could have filled her in on these early details as accurately as if she'd kept the information herself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kenneth View Post
    @Marv2, as much as I love Mary and believe her books to be great contributions to the Supremes legacy, there are some inaccuracies in them. Mary, for example, never revealed that Diane had helped her save her house from foreclosure even though it came out later [[I forget where). That seemed to be a deliberate omission so as not to give Diane credit where credit was due. An omission may not be a lie per se, but it certainly led to a misrepresentation of, as we say, a "material fact." She did leave that out, didn't she? Tell me if I'm wrong.

    I think Mary and Diane are like sisters in a love-hate relationship. No matter what, they have decades-old hurts from long ago that bubble to the surface now and then.

    I mostly respect Mary's very detailed accounting of the early years. Her recall of names, dates and places was phenomenal. I believe she mentions in the book she'd kept a journal. No one could have filled her in on these early details as accurately as if she'd kept the information herself.

    Kenneth as much as you try.... oh forget it. I'll just get to the point. I know you know what chronological order means. Mary's first book went from 1944 [[the year she was born) up to 1970 when Diana Ross left the group with a small summary of Florence's passing and Motown 25. Her second book covered roughly 1970 -90. That $30,000 loan she took out from Diane and repaid with interest happened in 1981 and Mary Wilson does cover it in her second book "Supreme Faith" so I don't know what you are talking about.

    It took Diane up to about 2007 to acknowledge and thank Mary Wilson for the contributions Mary had made to her career. Now I want to go out and enjoy my Memorial Day weekend. Take care and good luck in coming up with something new that is truthful!

    One more thing. If Mary Wilson was hell bent on slamming Diane with her books she could have chosen to tell how Berry Gordy got Diana Ross pregnant out of wedlock and Ross going on to marry another man knowing it was not his kid. Mary knew about it, but she sure did not write about it. When she was asked on television interviews, she refused to discuss it. Now give Mary some credit!
    Last edited by marv2; 05-24-2015 at 03:16 PM.

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    I've never understood that criticism of Mary. Ross even said it in 2000 interview with B Walters. Such bs. Mary most certainly did talk about it in her next book when she picked up the story in 1970 which is where it should have been chronologically. The loan came a number if years later..with interst!!lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by luke View Post
    I've never understood that criticism of Mary. Ross even said it in 2000 interview with B Walters. Such bs. Mary most certainly did talk about it in her next book when she picked up the story in 1970 which is where it should have been chronologically. The loan came a number if years later..with interst!!lol
    I understand it completely. They are full of something and want to portray something about Mary that is not there........ They make stuff up like she purposely left out borrowing and paying back money to Diana Ross to try to make Mary look bad and Diane look better. It does not work because it does not add up! The loan occurred in 1981 after Diane signed with RCA and Mary divorced Mr. Ferrer after he had decimated Mary's finances. The first book was primarily about the 60s. I don't really recall Diana Ross helping anyone.. Wait, she did build that little playground in Central Park for a bunch rich kids living on the UWS of Manhattan, but then it was only after Mayor Koch threaten to sue her on behalf of the city!
    Last edited by marv2; 05-24-2015 at 03:28 PM.

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    Marv, I was not being dogmatic. I was saying what I remembered. You know I have nothing against Mary. You do not need to lump me in with others who are "full of something." I was asking, after all. To my recollection, the house was discussed in the first book and then later discussed again in the second where she mentioned the loan. Apparently, I was wrong. It's certainly not a big deal and was not intended as a barb.

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    I have the compunction again to say the Marvelettes, Martha and the Vandellas and the non-Motowners Patti LaBelle and the Bluebelles could sweep all three Supremes under the rug vocally and stage wise but I decided not to be catty.

    We promised each other we wouldn't go there again and here we are back in the thick of it... smh

    And that's all I'll add to it, I'll let y'all talk amongst yourselves...

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    How right you are, midnightman. But I hope you're not lumping me in with that tendency. I was trying to have a reasonable discussion and had that question to ask. Anyway, thanks for your comment.

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    Did anyone threaten Diana to make her help pay for Mary Wells medical bills? GROW UP.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mowsville View Post
    Did anyone threaten Diana to make her help pay for Mary Wells medical bills? GROW UP.
    Nah, but Mayor Ed Koch was determined Diana Ross was not going to stiff the City of New York with at that big bill for services for her Central Park Concert and let her walk away without paying for that playground she promised. So he went public and threaten to sue her ass off! It worked, Miss Ross coughed up $250,000 [["of my own money") in a hurry! LOL! Now you grow up!

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    What you are reading is the second or third revision..........................Mary was told to re-write her story so the public would buy it.

  38. #88
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    Only a rancid _____ would say you are writing nonfiction and make up lies, innuendo and misleading moments about others to pay her bills. Anyone with a shred of integrity would not do that just to sell books. Supposedly she wrote it to share her story. To exacerbate her duplicity, Mary then claimed she had no idea why Diana stopped talking to her lyin' ass. HA! Geez, Mary own up to your stuff.

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    Quote Originally Posted by supremester View Post
    Only a rancid _____ would say you are writing nonfiction and make up lies, innuendo and misleading moments about others to pay her bills. Anyone with a shred of integrity would not do that just to sell books. Supposedly she wrote it to share her story. To exacerbate her duplicity, Mary then claimed she had no idea why Diana stopped talking to her lyin' ass. HA! Geez, Mary own up to your stuff.

    If Miss Wilson lied, why hasn't she been sued?

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    She hasn't been sued because it was all true! You should be grateful that she did not tell everything, you would not be able to take it. It's been nearly 30 years since Mary released her NY Times Bestseller and the book that would become the best selling music related autobiography in history!

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    Quote Originally Posted by marv2 View Post
    If Miss Wilson lied, why hasn't she been sued?
    Mary has admitted herself that its the way she saw it,,,,,,,,,,
    Flo, Diana, Cindy, Jean, Lynda, Scherrie, Barbara, Berry, HDH and others did not see it that way. Its weird but you can put 2 people in the same situation and they can have totally different stories.

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    Diana did write her rebuttal to set the record straight but returned the money and kept the book to give to her children. Someday it may come out and perhaps it will never will. I guess the Lady was more concerned that her children knew the truth behind what Mary had written.

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    Quote Originally Posted by captainjames View Post
    Diana did write her rebuttal to set the record straight but returned the money and kept the book to give to her children. Someday it may come out and perhaps it will never will. I guess the Lady was more concerned that her children knew the truth behind what Mary had written.
    I can see this thread went way down south. Once again this turned into a Diana vs. Mary thread. How can you still argue about stuff that happened 30 years ago. You need to let go of what happened decades ago [[and I mean both sides) and celebrate the music they made.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kenneth View Post
    How right you are, midnightman. But I hope you're not lumping me in with that tendency. I was trying to have a reasonable discussion and had that question to ask. Anyway, thanks for your comment.
    Nah I wasn't. Don't worry.

  45. #95
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    What has that got to do with Mary Wells?
    Quote Originally Posted by marv2 View Post
    Nah, but Mayor Ed Koch was determined Diana Ross was not going to stiff the City of New York with at that big bill for services for her Central Park Concert and let her walk away without paying for that playground she promised. So he went public and threaten to sue her ass off! It worked, Miss Ross coughed up $250,000 [["of my own money") in a hurry! LOL! Now you grow up!

  46. #96
    supremester Guest
    You just got through saying the book was not all true. That Mary was wrong about the formation of the group and who invited who in. Read your own words above, decide on a sto-ray, and stick to it. Like your Hollywood Palace fable. LOL. GUUUUURRRLLL it ain't all true. Read about Flo on The Tonight Show and watch the full clip. Mary just made stuff up as she went along because she had never heard of Al Gore so she never would have expected the internet to be her undoing.

    Did Mary sue Tony Turner? Was THAT all true? She said publicly it wasn't true. Not everyone wants to waste their time on lawsuits and BS. Ross didn't sue Gerald Posner either. Miss Ross be happy, healthy, digging her life and career and not having to deal with "things" she doesn't want to deal with. Sue Mary for what? Mary has no money and Ross doesn't need any [[even though you claim she's broke having lost all her money with Bernie Madoff LOLOL - good one, honey!) and if she did sue Mary, it would just wind up more tabloid trash and get Mary on TV complaining again. Better just to talk to her every 13 years when they run into each other - unintentionally. ; )


    Quote Originally Posted by marv2 View Post
    She hasn't been sued because it was all true! You should be grateful that she did not tell everything, you would not be able to take it. It's been nearly 30 years since Mary released her NY Times Bestseller and the book that would become the best selling music related autobiography in history!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Roberta75 View Post
    But the Atlantic label worked with Lu Pine to release selected singles for national distribution and if Atlantic thought Buttered Popcorn and pretty baby could have been hits theyd have made them hits.
    Buttered popcorn and baby dont go were products under motown records they threw those tracks on their 1st album one of them was relesed as a single no promotion end of story.

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    What the heck? What did Mary lie about? Shelley Berger told her she was TOO NICE in her book! Lol...geez and some people complain about stuff said about Diana. Lolol

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    Dreamgirls !!!!
    Lawsuit ???
    None............

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    Quote Originally Posted by supremester View Post
    No one got trampled in The Supremes. I wonder how many girls in The Brewster Projects, when asked if they would like to sing bg ONLY in the biggest group in US history and become famous worldwide and make a ton of dough would say, "Oh NO! THAT wouldn't be fair. I'M not going to be trampled on. I'll go back to the projects, thanks anyway." Berry only signed The primettes because of Ross. There would be no Supremes without her. Zero. No Smokey audition. No Berry's interest asking to hear Ross' song again. Nothing. Berry didn't like Mary's voice and thought Flo was too ghetto. He didn't HAVE to like them. He told them what he wanted: Diana the sole lead. They agreed. They should have left Motown or shut up about it after they agreed. No one held a gun to their heads to sing bg - they agreed. People act like Berry had an obligation to support talent he didn't believe in. It's nuts. No one sought the services of Mary and/or Flo after they left Motown either. No one at all. HDH started Invictus right there in Detroit and could have signed either. Gil & Ross had to fight Berry to get people back in after The Copa and again to get Mary her spot on the song -he agreed only after Ross was sick and told Berry she needed the rest. Berry didn't WANT Flo or Mary to have any leads or to speak in interviews. . Miss Ross didn't have to give up People - she wanted Mary & Flo to have something and Mary knows that. She stabbed Ross in the back for it. Those are facts. No one at Motown felt Mary or Flo "was competition" for Ross - that BS came later by innuendo in Dreamgirl where Mary talked about People being taken away at The Copa, but forget to add that Flo would be singing it again just 3 weeks later - AND that Mary would be duetting on it with Flo on it. I wonder why Mary would forget to say that????? Hmmmmmm..... Berry & Diana did nothing sneaky, devious or underhanded - the agenda persued was exactly the agenda presented /agreed to DMF in 1963. They should have left then. Not much would be different in the long run: Ross would still have gotten rave reviews for her show last night in Atlanta.The Supremes had 3 31's and two hit albums before they were on Ed Sullivan. I think Flo & Mary were grea - the best possible Supremes - but not essential. Harvey Fuqua told me A LOT about the workings of the group, and his version doesn't jell with Marys, but it does with Gil & Colly's and Mrs Powell - ALL of which I have on tape.


    Quote Originally Posted by BigAl View Post
    Goodness knows I'm no champion of Diane by any stretch of the imagination, but it can't be argued that she was the best choice to lead the group for the kind of crossover success which Gordy envisioned. In addition, she had the obsessive drive to push herself tirelessly to get to the top, no matter what it took [[and, sadly, no matter who might get trampled in the process). But, as they say, that's showbiz. HDH must be credited for how they were able to tailor material brilliantly to her reedy voice to maximum effect. Mary and Florence were indispensable in making the group unique, however. Someone once termed The Supremes as being slick [[Diane), sexy [[Mary), and Sassy [[Flo), and that interplay was essential. Diane as a solo could not have managed it, nor could Mary or Flo, either, for that matter. It's regrettable [[nay, almost criminal) that the latter two were eventually so underutilized. It was my opinion, then and now, that, while Diane was the best choice to lead the group on the singles, no contest, Mary and Flo ought to have been allowed plenty of leads on albums and especially in live performance, rather the just the occasional one-off. This would not have hampered Diane's success one bit, but that wasn't the plan as Diane and Berry saw it, and, for better or for worse, they were in charge.
    You're diving quite deep into hearsay and conjecture here. For instance, "He told them what he wanted: Diana the sole lead. They agreed." I have never seen this printed anywhere or spoken by anyone. Berry did not outright tell them he only wanted Diana by even a stretch. In fact, he told them he didn't want them at ALL at that first audition. Not Diana.

    Second, in regards to the "Oh NO! THAT wouldn't be fair. I'M not going to be trampled on. I'll go back to the projects, thanks anyway," argument, you are out of context. Flo and Mary were not happy with several complicated issues, including their underutilization in the group, Diana's constant special treatment, and Berry's growing snubbing of not only Mary and Flo's talents, but everyone else's as well. You say that any other girl would not have turned down a part to sing backup in the most famous group, but then you say that if Mary and Flo didn't like it, they shouldn't have stayed. That's contradictory. Not to mention the girls were only teenagers and, reasonably, had no understanding of the complicated politics of show business. Were they expected to, as high schoolers, see Berry's long-term plan for crossover appeal? The girls wanted to SING. Eventually, Mary and Flo were relegated to "ooh's" and "ahh's," and as girls who worked so hard and for so long on their craft, that's pretty insulting.

    In regards to "leaving" when Diana was chosen in 1963, you cannot possibly believe it was that simple. First, they were under contract. Legally that was not possible. Second, even though Berry told them they wanted Diana on leads, the girls were still quite highly utilized - if not so much on leads, on harmony. Just because you don't like something right off the bat, you don't just leave. The girls worked too hard to do that. That's not the sneaky part. The sneaky part was gradually reducing Mary and Flo's vocal parts, their levels on recordings, and, finally, their involvement altogether on records. Berry straight up told Mary that she couldn't sing, and Flo was once [[at least) told to stand several feet away from the mic. It wasn't the single time of being told that Diana was going to be lead that destroyed the group unity. It was repeated occurrences of conflicts of interest that was rightfully perceived as unfair by not only Mary and Flo, but other acts in Motown, as well.

    Re: Diana trampling others. You can not deny that, at least in the early days, Diana behaved quite wildly, and frankly, poorly, to many in the Motown caravan. It's all documented. Threatening to run over Mary Wells, jumping on others for a can of hairspray, and outright stealing stage patter of other acts. Admittedly, the former two examples lack sustainable credibility, but her selfish behavior back in those days is well documented by many. That's not to say that Diana did not mature, but she burned a lot of bridges in those early days. I love Diana and think she is a great entertainer, but it cannot be argued that she instigated trouble on a number of occasions. Part of that, of course, comes from a lack of maturity, but regardless...

    Regarding Mary and Flo being non-essential. Fans knew each Supreme by name. Fans definitely had their favorites, and not all of them like Diana. When Berry considered not having Florence appear at the Copa in 1966, Jules Podell INSISTED that each original Supreme appear. When Flo was ousted, fans demanded that she be reinstalled - continuing all the way through Diana's leaving. The sound of the records changed drastically once Flo left or once the Andantes replaced the girls. It's not a coincidence that records didn't sell as well once that unique sound was tampered with. The Supremes as DMF had a unique, inimitable sound. Once the Andantes replaced them, that was destroyed. As good as the Andantes were, they can be heard on countless records by other artists, thereby negating that 'unique' factor. Not to mention that Mary, Flo, and Diana each had their very own, defined personalities. Eventually, especially once Cindy came in, their was no more individual personalities. Quite literally, the name change from "The Supremes" as a solid unit to "Diana Ross & the Supremes" set Diana as the sole personality of the group with Cindy and Mary as merely background singers. They were still successful live, but droves of fans turned away once that group solidarity was destroyed.
    Last edited by antceleb12; 05-25-2015 at 11:14 AM.

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