The Supremes - As A Group, Not as a Lead & Two Background Singers

[milven]

In another thread it was asked why Flo and Mary were not featured in Twenty Feet From Stardom since they were background singers.

Today's Huffingtton Post has an article about them respecting the three of them as a group in such albums as Country & Western, A Bit of Liverpool, &Sing Sam Cooke.

On these albums the three of the women sing as a group , sing in harmony, sometimes share leads and are, for the most part, unassisted by The Andantes. It is a positive article and worth reading. It mentions how the Andrews Sisters never used replacements for Maxine and Laverne.

In the Country and Western album, it says

The album's high points are the Supremes' beautiful vocal blending on songs like "Makes No Difference Now" [[also on the Ray Charles album). Here, for the first and only time, each girl gets a solo verse and it's a joy to hear Mary and Flo step out before joining Diana on the climax.




http://www.huffingtonpost.com/kevin-...=Entertainment

[marv2]

The Supremes were always regarded and viewed as a group by us , in Detroit. That "Diana Ross & the Supremes" mess was met with frowns, rolled eyes and smirks! LOL! They were a group as this song here is typical of them performing that way................

[RobertZ]

The Supremes were always regarded and viewed as a group by us , in Detroit. That "Diana Ross & the Supremes" mess was met with frowns, rolled eyes and smirks! LOL! They were a group as this song here is typical of them performing that way................

Wow - between Gladys Knight and the Pips, Smokey Robinson and the Miracles, Martha Reeves and the Vandellas, Ruby and the Romantics, Clyde McPhatter and the Drifters, Frankie Valli and the Four Seasons, Larry Chance and the Earls, Tommy James and the Shondells, Buddy Holly and the Crickets, Bill Haley and the Comets, Sly and the Family Stone, Kool and the Gang [[to name a few) you Detroiters must have rolled your eyes into quite a bit of strain!

[marv2]

Wow - between Gladys Knight and the Pips, Smokey Robinson and the Miracles, Martha Reeves and the Vandellas, Ruby and the Romantics, Clyde McPhatter and the Drifters, Frankie Valli and the Four Seasons, Larry Chance and the Earls, Tommy James and the Shondells, Buddy Holly and the Crickets, Bill Haley and the Comets, Sly and the Family Stone, Kool and the Gang [[to name a few) you Detroiters must have rolled your eyes into quite a bit of strain!

Nope those were all groups! There was no confusion about it. Whitney Houston, Stevie Wonder, Aretha Franklin, etc, etc, etc now those were solo artist that may have employed background singers when performing live or recording.

[arr&bee]

Yep,they were a group alright....until berry decided that he only needed diana and two backup singers,after[65]that group stuff went out the window,and the sad part is that both[mary and flo]could outsing diana.

[Roberta75]

Heres the entire article and lets not pit one Supreme against the other. Lets all act like responsable adults please.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/kevin-...=Entertainment

Roberta

[marv2]

Yep,they were a group alright....until berry decided that he only needed diana and two backup singers,after[65]that group stuff went out the window,and the sad part is that both[mary and flo]could outsing diana.

JAI ain't that the truth! I don't recall the public demanding that Diane be placed out front or taken out of the group. That was Berry and Diane's idea.

[supremester]

LMAO!!! You can see the result of all that eye rolling - not pretty. All of those "groups" you mention were exactly like The Supremes & DR&TS: A lead and bgs. Lucky for millions of music lovers world wide, Berry Gordy had the vision, wisdom & taste to feature Miss Ross who, for over 5 decades, as been one of the most beloved female vocalists in her category ever. three decades with no hit records, label support or organizational push, Miss Ross is still filling arenas and setting box office records. One can say Berry Gordy was certainly a visionary!
I love the harmony and group sound of DMF. The Huff post's descriptions of their voices is spot on. I play Sam Cooke & CW&P alot - especially the latter. their blend id legendary. without Flo, it wasn't nearly as good. without Ross & Flo, it was nothing special. JMC were great - just not special - as their dwindling popularity showed. You can't just put any 3 singers together and expect magic - even 3 fantastic singers. DMF had it, the others didn't. Oddly, what the public responded to way more than anything, was Ross up front with whoever.

Wow - between Gladys Knight and the Pips, Smokey Robinson and the Miracles, Martha Reeves and the Vandellas, Ruby and the Romantics, Clyde McPhatter and the Drifters, Frankie Valli and the Four Seasons, Larry Chance and the Earls, Tommy James and the Shondells, Buddy Holly and the Crickets, Bill Haley and the Comets, Sly and the Family Stone, Kool and the Gang [[to name a few) you Detroiters must have rolled your eyes into quite a bit of strain!

[Roberta75]

JAI ain't that the truth! I don't recall the public demanding that Diane be placed out front or taken out of the group. That was Berry and Diane's idea.

Which they discuss with you first right?

[RobertZ]

LMAO!!! You can see the result of all that eye rolling - not pretty. All of those "groups" you mention were exactly like The Supremes & DR&TS: A lead and bgs. Lucky for millions of music lovers world wide, Berry Gordy had the vision, wisdom & taste to feature Miss Ross who, for over 5 decades, as been one of the most beloved female vocalists in her category ever. three decades with no hit records, label support or organizational push, Miss Ross is still filling arenas and setting box office records. One can say Berry Gordy was certainly a visionary!
I love the harmony and group sound of DMF. The Huff post's descriptions of their voices is spot on. I play Sam Cooke & CW&P alot - especially the latter. their blend id legendary. without Flo, it wasn't nearly as good. without Ross & Flo, it was nothing special. JMC were great - just not special - as their dwindling popularity showed. You can't just put any 3 singers together and expect magic - even 3 fantastic singers. DMF had it, the others didn't. Oddly, what the public responded to way more than anything, was Ross up front with whoever.

Glad 'ya liked it! And your comment is very good. As I've said many times - lots of people are wonderful singers; few are stars.

I always wonder - do these eyerolls continue when spotting an ad for "Former Ladies OF the Supremes", or "Sherrie and Lynda OF the Supremes", or "Mary Wilson OF the Supremes"? Or is it just that one name "... and the Supremes" that gets the googles going?! It's quite a hierarchy of pronouns, proper names, conjunctions, and definite articles to keep track of!

[supremester]

I don't know what's sad about that: the group went out the window and into the history books - out singing s an interesting term considering the result. Mahalia Jackson & Ethel Merman could "out sing" all three, but had very few hits in the 1960's. The sad part to me is that these better singers didn't get snapped up by other companies and have even bigger careers than Diane. It's a damn shame.

Yep,they were a group alright....until berry decided that he only needed diana and two backup singers,after[65]that group stuff went out the window,and the sad part is that both[mary and flo]could outsing diana.

[supremester]

That's 'cos you were breathing in all that smoke and bad air from the riots and it has affected your memory. The public outside of Detroit was demanding it daily. And lucky they listened as the last Supremes concert: Diana Ross & The Supremes Return To Love on July 9, 2000 was an SRO sellout at Madison Square Garden with even the standing room gone - they resorted to selling tix behind the curtain [[no view - just sound) for 49.99 plus fees. an excellent way for a group to go out: ON TOP!!!

JAI ain't that the truth! I don't recall the public demanding that Diane be placed out front or taken out of the group. That was Berry and Diane's idea.

[woodward]

Heres the entire article and lets not pit one Supreme against the other. Lets all act like responsable adults please.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/kevin-...=Entertainment

Roberta

Putting all personalities aside which could get out of hand, I personally think that the entire situation can be simplified as follows:

It's 50th Anniversary last summer went virtually unnoticed by all but diehard fans. Similar landmark anniversaries for the Beatles, Beach Boys, and Rolling Stonres were WIDELY celebrated with reissues and tributes.
This is a tragedy the lack of attention their 50th Anniversary received.

[RobertZ]

Putting all personalities aside which could get out of hand, I personally think that the entire situation can be simplified as follows:

It's 50th Anniversary last summer went virtually unnoticed by all but diehard fans. Similar landmark anniversaries for the Beatles, Beach Boys, and Rolling Stonres were WIDELY celebrated with reissues and tributes.
This is a tragedy the lack of attention their 50th Anniversary received.

Well that gets my Amen! There were a flurry of notices about this and that song's 50th but nothing major. I did my best with Facebook posts -

[supremester]

It is sad, but Universal is not behind DR&TS anymore and didn't do squat. Maybe if there was a better situation with all group members, it would have been different. I'm sure if DMCJSLS had been besties, a lot more would have happened.

[woodward]

Well that gets my Amen! There were a flurry of notices about this and that song's 50th but nothing major. I did my best with Facebook posts -

Lack of publicity for these accomplishments is a major crime in my opinion. I sent an email to the Editor of the Washington Post suggesting a story about the 50th Anniversary, [[SILENCE). Not even a response.

Additionally, when the 50th Anniversary of the Motown Revues was upcoming, I also sent them an email suggesting they do a story on the revues and how important they were to the nation. Again, [[SILENCE). I pointed out that the opening night of the nationwide tour was on Friday, October 26, 1962 at the Howard Theatre in Washington, DC. It would have made a great story with an emphasis on Washington, DC.

[jobeterob]

Lack of publicity for these accomplishments is a major crime in my opinion. I sent an email to the Editor of the Washington Post suggesting a story about the 50th Anniversary, [[SILENCE). Not even a response.

Additionally, when the 50th Anniversary of the Motown Revues was upcoming, I also sent them an email suggesting they do a story on the revues and how important they were to the nation. Again, [[SILENCE). I pointed out that the opening night of the nationwide tour was on Friday, October 26, 1962 at the Howard Theatre in Washington, DC. It would have made a great story with an emphasis on Washington, DC.

The fact that an original Supreme is deceased, that some of the later day Supremes weren't there for any of the major hits and the fact there is no real contact and no real possibility of anything like a reunion tour has not helped the Supremes at all.

And beyond that, it's all about Diana anyway ~ she's the only one acknowledged and known by the public and so there is no incentive for the press to cover the Supremes. To get any coverage, you've got to go to less well known on line coverage or some minor magazine ~ or go to us on SD!

[RobertZ]

The fact that an original Supreme is deceased, that some of the later day Supremes weren't there for any of the major hits and the fact there is no real contact and no real possibility of anything like a reunion tour has not helped the Supremes at all.

And beyond that, it's all about Diana anyway ~ she's the only one acknowledge and known by the public and so there is no incentive for the press to cover the Supremes. To get any coverage, you've got to go to less well known on line coverage or some minor magazine ~ or go to us on SD!

"Tough love" but so true! And I hope some posters here don't have your home address ...

[vgalindo]

The fact that an original Supreme is deceased, that some of the later day Supremes weren't there for any of the major hits and the fact there is no real contact and no real possibility of anything like a reunion tour has not helped the Supremes at all.

And beyond that, it's all about Diana anyway ~ she's the only one acknowledged and known by the public and so there is no incentive for the press to cover the Supremes. To get any coverage, you've got to go to less well known on line coverage or some minor magazine ~ or go to us on SD!

This is so true. The general public really only know Diana ross. Its not like the Beatles who all of their members had their own successful solo careers.

[supremester]

That's why she's billed ".....of The Supremes" otherwise people might think she's the Mary from The Women or 227

[thomas96]

Yep,they were a group alright....until berry decided that he only needed diana and two backup singers,after[65]that group stuff went out the window,and the sad part is that both[mary and flo]could outsing diana.

Right on baby.

[RobertZ]

That's why she's billed ".....of The Supremes" otherwise people might think she's the Mary from The Women or 227

RIMSHOT! Above all Mr. Gordy was a businessman, and if Bubba sang better than Gladys, Lois than Martha, Duke than Levi, etc., etc., they would have been moved into the lead.

[RobertZ]

But back to point 1, it's a great article and I thank you for posting it.

[marv2]

Right on baby.

Exactly! He told the truth and there is nothing more to say...................

[luke]

As the point of the article is that their supreme talent and excitement emerged when they were a real group, it doesn't diminish any member so no point to jump up and down. It celebrates their talent and the magic when they harmonized and each personna emerged. As that changed so did some of the excitement. After Flo left as Mary said it was all over..the real group magic. I agree due to their estrangement less interest in 50 the anniversary..at least that's part of the reason..very astute article and recognition. Thanks!

[antceleb12]

The Supremes, no doubt, were in their prime when EACH Supremes' talents were utilized equally. I don't care what the charts say, or what Diana's concert draw says. Their is nothing like Diana, Mary, and Florence singing in three-part harmony. For example...

"I Hear a Symphony" - in live performances, the ending always gave me chills. Florence's high soprano knocked it out of the park.
"People" - Their harmonies were absolutely stellar.
"It Makes No Difference Now" - They took a country song and really took it to church on this one.
"After All," "Never Again," "My Heart Can't Take It No More" - All of these early tracks, despite Diana's nasally sound, showcase the tight, warm harmonies the girls were originally known for.
"Cupid," "Bring it On Home to Me," "Chain Gang," "Ain't That Good News" - No further comment needed.
"Long Gone Lover" - Their powerful blend causes a little feedback in the recording, but again - 'supreme' blend.

[detmotownguy]

The Supremes, no doubt, were in their prime when EACH Supremes' talents were utilized equally. I don't care what the charts say, or what Diana's concert draw says. Their is nothing like Diana, Mary, and Florence singing in three-part harmony. For example...

"I Hear a Symphony" - in live performances, the ending always gave me chills. Florence's high soprano knocked it out of the park.
"People" - Their harmonies were absolutely stellar.
"It Makes No Difference Now" - They took a country song and really took it to church on this one.
"After All," "Never Again," "My Heart Can't Take It No More" - All of these early tracks, despite Diana's nasally sound, showcase the tight, warm harmonies the girls were originally known for.
"Cupid," "Bring it On Home to Me," "Chain Gang," "Ain't That Good News" - No further comment needed.
"Long Gone Lover" - Their powerful blend causes a little feedback in the recording, but again - 'supreme' blend.

tel:928-268-3064

Nicely said.

[thomas96]

RIMSHOT! Above all Mr. Gordy was a businessman, and if Bubba sang better than Gladys, Lois than Martha, Duke than Levi, etc., etc., they would have been moved into the lead.

Unfortunately, talent isn't the only thing that yields success in the business. And BG knew that. Diana had that "it" factor in her looks, the way she spoke and dressed and in her nasal singing that made her such a star. I personally hate her singing and don't think she's very good compared to other female recording artists at Motown, but I can see how it would appeal to the general public with untrained ears. It's poppy and catchy. People can hear it and it gets stuck in their head. Doesn't mean she's better than Mary or Flo or other female singers there.

[BigAl]

... It mentions how the Andrews Sisters never used replacements for Maxine and Laverne.

Only partly true. During LaVerne's final illness and after her passing in 1967, Patty and Maxene recruited Joyce DeYoung to fill that space and she performed with them until they disbanded in 1968.

[supremester]

Nor does it mean she's less talented. IMO, she's supremely talented and proved it early on with her cuts on Meet The Supremes. While untrained and inexperienced in the studio, she still exhibited essential vocal styling and approach to the different cuts that would stand out to any trained ear. She puts more life into "Those DJ Shows" at age 16 than Mary in her sleep walk thru Come And Get These Memories or most of Flo's solos. She didn't have the volume of Flo or the heft of Mary - both fine voices, but her interp and rhythmic tenacity outshines them all IMO, and the public responds to it - then, and today if you read her review from last night. Who's better is only a matter of taste and can be nothing but. Who was the best choice for BG to lead the group he wanted, cannot be disputed. I love their harmonies, I love Mary on Baby Don't Go and a few Flo things, but I feel they were awkward vocalists - especially Flo. Mary became a good vocalist, I don't know that Flo would have, but I adored her in the group just as she was: Flo.

Unfortunately, talent isn't the only thing that yields success in the business. And BG knew that. Diana had that "it" factor in her looks, the way she spoke and dressed and in her nasal singing that made her such a star. I personally hate her singing and don't think she's very good compared to other female recording artists at Motown, but I can see how it would appeal to the general public with untrained ears. It's poppy and catchy. People can hear it and it gets stuck in their head. Doesn't mean she's better than Mary or Flo or other female singers there.

[marv2]

Diana Ross sounded like a squeaky mouse singing through a fan until Holland-Dozier-Holland took over producing the group. That is why all of their early singles failed with her on the lead. Even to this day, her voice is not pleasing to my ears.

Dionne Warwick? Now that's a singer!

[milven]

Diana Ross sounded like a squeaky mouse singing through a fan until Holland-Dozier-Holland took over producing the group. That is why all of their early singles failed with her on the lead. Even to this day, her voice is not pleasing to my ears.
Dionne Warwick? Now that's a singer!

And that "squeaky mouse voice that even to this day is not pleasing to the ears" was on their first flop on Lu-Pine "Tears of Sorrow".

But I wonder why Buttered Popcorn with Flo's voice, "which is pleasing to the ears" was not a hit.

And why, was Pretty Baby with Mary's "non-squeaky mouse voice"not a hit?

[marv2]

"Pretty Baby" was on a label that could not promote it beyond Detroit City limits let alone distribute it beyond Michigan. "Butter Popcorn" was a tug of war between Berry Gordy wanting to pull it vs Barney Ales, knowing it had hit potential wanting to promote it. Diane did not have a good voice to most people in those days. She needed to be heavily produced to the point of being spoon fed the lyrics to the songs according to Robin Seymour.

[captainjames]

Well, with all being said could've, would've , should have ....Diana was the lead voice that took the Supremes to Super Stardom. Sorry, that we can't re-write history and thank you HDH, Berry, the Andantes and the Funk Brothers. It was an amazing ride.

[BigAl]

Goodness knows I'm no champion of Diane by any stretch of the imagination, but it can't be argued that she was the best choice to lead the group for the kind of crossover success which Gordy envisioned. In addition, she had the obsessive drive to push herself tirelessly to get to the top, no matter what it took [[and, sadly, no matter who might get trampled in the process). But, as they say, that's showbiz. HDH must be credited for how they were able to tailor material brilliantly to her reedy voice to maximum effect. Mary and Florence were indispensable in making the group unique, however. Someone once termed The Supremes as being slick [[Diane), sexy [[Mary), and Sassy [[Flo), and that interplay was essential. Diane as a solo could not have managed it, nor could Mary or Flo, either, for that matter. It's regrettable [[nay, almost criminal) that the latter two were eventually so underutilized. It was my opinion, then and now, that, while Diane was the best choice to lead the group on the singles, no contest, Mary and Flo ought to have been allowed plenty of leads on albums and especially in live performance, rather the just the occasional one-off. This would not have hampered Diane's success one bit, but that wasn't the plan as Diane and Berry saw it, and, for better or for worse, they were in charge.

[detmotownguy]

Diana Ross sounded like a squeaky mouse singing through a fan until Holland-Dozier-Holland took over producing the group. That is why all of their early singles failed with her on the lead. Even to this day, her voice is not pleasing to my ears.

Dionne Warwick? Now that's a singer!

If it wasn't for HDH, I wonder what level of success they would have achieved with other writers/producers? Their harmonizing as a group was quite nice.

[marv2]

If it wasn't for HDH, I wonder what level of success they would have achieved with other writers/producers? Their harmonizing as a group was quite nice.

Well they did try other producers and just wasn't happening and Diane was singing the lead!

[franjoy56]

[QUOTE=marv2;285606]Well they did try other producers and just wasn't happening and Diane was singing the lead![/QUOTEsome things you should never get use to? Diana and ashford and simpson as the supremes

[marv2]

[QUOTE=franjoy56;285607]

Well they did try other producers and just wasn't happening and Diane was singing the lead![/QUOTEsome things you should never get use to? Diana and ashford and simpson as the supremes

That's right Fran and years prior to that Smokey, Berry, Clarence Paul etc tried their hand at producing them.

[Roberta75]

"Pretty Baby" was on a label that could not promote it beyond Detroit City limits let alone distribute it beyond Michigan. "Butter Popcorn" was a tug of war between Berry Gordy wanting to pull it vs Barney Ales, knowing it had hit potential wanting to promote it..

If Pretty baby had hit written all over it trust me it would have got out of Detroit city limit and charted. Butter Popcorn did not have hit potential imo and your off in fantasay land again lol.

Roberta

[marv2]

If Pretty baby had hit written all over it trust me it would have got out of Detroit city limit and charted. Butter Popcorn did not have hit potential imo and your off in fantasay land again lol.

Roberta

Trust you? You don't even know what you are talking about. Trust you LOL!!!!

[franjoy56]

[QUOTE=Roberta75;285610]If Pretty baby had hit written all over it trust me it would have got out of Detroit city limit and charted. Butter Popcorn did not have hit potential imo and your off in fantasay land again lol.

Buttered popcorn was a novelty record with silly lyrcs, but if barney ales would have been given the green light to,promote it it would have made the charts, that record had potential. Just because berry diidnt like it doesnt mean the rest of the public didnt it was not heard for it to be a hit. I remember seeing buttered popcorn in the record bin for 39cents in 1964 on tamla i never heard it so ii bought 3 copies and gave two of them to my friends i said to myself that the same lady whom sang the outro to long gone lover, cause i had the album wdolg i read the liner notes and found out the lady who sang the top harmony was FLORENCE BALLARD, and did a fab job on buttered popcorn inspite ov its greasey and salty what do u like u lyrics

[thisoldheart]

for the most part hdh were the only producers who knew how to use ross's unique voice and the only group of writers who could consistently give them hit material. i am not convinced the supremes could have become a powerhouse group without them. same goes for the tops. a whole lotta magic happened when hdh and the supremes hooked up.

[thomas96]

If Pretty baby had hit written all over it trust me it would have got out of Detroit city limit and charted. Butter Popcorn did not have hit potential imo and your off in fantasay land again lol.

Roberta

Lu Pine wouldn't have a chance pushing it.

[Roberta75]

Lu Pine wouldn't have a chance pushing it.

But the Atlantic label worked with Lu Pine to release selected singles for national distribution and if Atlantic thought Buttered Popcorn and pretty baby could have been hits theyd have made them hits.

[captainjames]

Diana was going to be a "star" no matter who was singing behind her. You could have put two male singers behind her and Mr. Gordy was not going to stop until he had his dream. As a package the Supremes were good to look at but let us not forget that in the studio sometimes Diana was also lead and background vocals, ie; "You Keep Me Hanging On". In listening to HDH talk about WDOLG I often wondered if a version with Mary singing actually existed and what it would have sounded like. People always talk about all the Supremes songs that tanked before WDOLG but in reality it was one album; "Meet The Supremes" which by now I am sure its gold. Mary was very pretty on stage and still is but it takes more than just a pretty face to deliver a song and be an entertainer. Unfortunately, there is not enough out there to question Florence's potential and to give it a fair shake.

[marv2]

[QUOTE=franjoy56;285612]

If Pretty baby had hit written all over it trust me it would have got out of Detroit city limit and charted. Butter Popcorn did not have hit potential imo and your off in fantasay land again lol.

Buttered popcorn was a novelty record with silly lyrcs, but if barney ales would have been given the green light to,promote it it would have made the charts, that record had potential. Just because berry diidnt like it doesnt mean the rest of the public didnt it was not heard for it to be a hit. I remember seeing buttered popcorn in the record bin for 39cents in 1964 on tamla i never heard it so ii bought 3 copies and gave two of them to my friends i said to myself that the same lady whom sang the outro to long gone lover, cause i had the album wdolg i read the liner notes and found out the lady who sang the top harmony was FLORENCE BALLARD, and did a fab job on buttered popcorn inspite ov its greasey and salty what do u like u lyrics

Berry Gordy also did not like "What's Goin' On?".......... There were other smash hits that Berry did not like.

"Buttered Popcorn" had that "Mashed Potatoes" beat that was popular at the time.

[marv2]

Lu Pine wouldn't have a chance pushing it.

You can't explain anything to Roberta. Her mind works differently than a normal person...........

[marv2]

But the Atlantic label worked with Lu Pine to release selected singles for national distribution and if Atlantic thought Buttered Popcorn and pretty baby could have been hits theyd have made them hits.

Now, you see what I am saying? LOL!!!!

[marv2]

for the most part hdh were the only producers who knew how to use ross's unique voice and the only group of writers who could consistently give them hit material. i am not convinced the supremes could have become a powerhouse group without them. same goes for the tops. a whole lotta magic happened when hdh and the supremes hooked up.

I agree....so does Mary Wilson, which is why she always gives them praise and recognition every chance she gets! I don't know if Diane acknowledges HDH much publicly.