This Old Heart Of Mine - Isley Brothers' Motown Anthology track 3 version

[rovereab]

Has anybody noticed that this stereo track is mixed with the instruments' volume faded up and down in the same way as the 45 mono mix? This is very different to other stereo mixes I've heard in the UK.

I wonder why this is the case?

It suggests to me that Motown's stereo mixes didn't have to be so inferior to their mono counterparts in many cases.

[bradburger]

Eamonn,

You have good ears!

This is actually the mix [[or one of) used for the 45, and was mixed by Brian Holland. The other alternate pressing of TOHOM used a mix by Lawrence Horn. [[Both mixes are on TCMS 66 btw, the Brian Holland one being the superior one, be it in mono or stereo IMO).

I believe that when the folks from Universal UK where doing the 'Anthology' project and got the digital tape transfers, they queried with the folks in New York why 3 tracks on the Mono L.P master where in stereo, thinking it was mistake. After checking, the New York crew confirmed that there was no mistake, and that this how the Mono L.P master was!

So consequently, 'This Old Heart Of Mine', 'There's No Love Left', and 'Seek And You Shall Find' are in stereo on the first disc of the anthology, while everything else is a mono mix.

So, it would seem that Motown where in the habit of issuing fold downs of stereo mixes a lot earlier than originally thought [[from about 1968 onwards) for 45s , although it is difficult to tell what was before this, because the Duplicate Master [[DM) number didn't indicate whether the mix was mono or stereo until about mid 1966 IIRC.

Cheers

Paul

[rovereab]

An interesting story Paul.

I wonder why these tracks received such special treatment? I'm not aware of any other mono and stereo mixes sounding the same - are you aware of any?

Regards

Eamonn

[Sotosound]

An interesting story Paul.

I wonder why these tracks received such special treatment? I'm not aware of any other mono and stereo mixes sounding the same - are you aware of any?

Regards

Eamonn

I've wondered about this on and off since the discovery about TOHOM was first made over five years ago. [[FIVE YEARS??? Where did the time go?)

Perhaps it was an experiment just for that single since the B-side [["There's No Love Left") also got the same treatment.

I also wondered back in 2010 and still wonder now what we'd all be arguing about now if that experiment had created the template for all future Motown mixing, leaving us with just stereo mixes folded down to mono - as per most of Roy Orbison's singles from his classic era.

Extending this further, perhaps to the point of absurdity, would we have paid loadsa money to buy "The Beatles In Fold-Down"? Would Phil Spector have worn a "Back To Fold-Down" badge. And what about a Bob Dylan box-set called "The Original Stereo recordings Folded Down Into Mono"?

[bradburger]

An interesting story Paul.

I wonder why these tracks received such special treatment? I'm not aware of any other mono and stereo mixes sounding the same - are you aware of any?

Regards

Eamonn

Eamonn,

I think there are some stereo mixes that come close to their mono counterparts, but they are few and far between.

I guess the problem is that the mono and stereo mixes were done at different times [[the latter maybe months or years after) by different engineers, and even if the same engineer who did the original mono mix that was picked for the 45 release was assigned to do a stereo mix of a that particular song, would he try to match it as closely as possible, or would he do something different because it was stereo? Then of course you have quality control to factor in, as they were then responsible for deciding which mixes would be used on what and where!

As I mentioned earlier, it became quite common for Motown to issue fold downs of stereo mixes from about 1968 on for the 45s, so I guess if it was the same mix used on Stereo L.P, it would be very close, but in mono, as in the case of THOM. [[I guess the cutting/mastering engineers might play around with the sound to make it 'feel' like a mono mix).

I've wondered about this on and off since the discovery about TOHOM was first made over five years ago. [[FIVE YEARS??? Where did the time go?)

Perhaps it was an experiment just for that single since the B-side [["There's No Love Left") also got the same treatment.

I also wondered back in 2010 and still wonder now what we'd all be arguing about now if that experiment had created the template for all future Motown mixing, leaving us with just stereo mixes folded down to mono - as per most of Roy Orbison's singles from his classic era.

Sotosound

I know people poo-poo fold downs as being inferior, but I always thought that the Brian Holland mix of TOHOM was a genuine mono mix, but of course that all changed after I heard it in it's true format on the 'Anthology set. I, like the rest, appear to have had been fooled!

I'm pretty sure the UK [[and the rest of the world) got some fold downs early on too, as Marvin Gaye's 'Little Darling' seems to be the stereo L.P mix [[no strings of course) on TMG 574. Also TMG 546 'Don't Mess with Bill' by the Marvelettes strangely uses only the left or right [[can't remember which) channel of the Stereo L.P mix! I guess that's why people wonder why it sounds so different to the US 45!

Cheers

Paul

[rovereab]

I can only dream of a "proper" stereo mix of Going Down For The Third Time

[Sotosound]

Sotosound

I know people poo-poo fold downs as being inferior, but I always thought that the Brian Holland mix of TOHOM was a genuine mono mix, but of course that all changed after I heard it in it's true format on the 'Anthology set. I, like the rest, appear to have had been fooled!

I'm pretty sure the UK [[and the rest of the world) got some fold downs early on too, as Marvin Gaye's 'Little Darling' seems to be the stereo L.P mix [[no strings of course) on TMG 574. Also TMG 546 'Don't Mess with Bill' by the Marvelettes strangely uses only the left or right [[can't remember which) channel of the Stereo L.P mix! I guess that's why people wonder why it sounds so different to the US 45!

Cheers

Paul

With a traditional 60s Motown stereo mix, the lead vocals are normally well up front and sound as though the singer is in the room with you.

With a lot of traditional 60s mono mixes, however, the way that the vocals are EQ'd often leaves me unable to position the vocalist as either at the other end of a big hall or right in front of me.

With this in mind, It's the clarity and real life in-the-room "shape" of Ronald Isley's vocals, and the fact that they sit slightly more on top of the backing than is usual that gives away the fact that the track is a fold-down.

Shame about "Little Darling" and "Don't mess With Bill", by the way.