Wikileaks: Why Does This Happen & Why is it OK?

[ajk93]

I'm really sick of hearing about this. Boy, technology really ruins the world. This would never have happened to this extent before! Just give me my typewriter and my Motown Records and I'm happy!!!

[ms_m]

ms_m you're right,everyone has forgotten that it is theft aswell

yep, that does seem to be an important piece of the puzzle people are forgetting about. Even if this were done in the name of a "good deed" the docs were stolen and there are laws against theft.

bobkayli

Something else occurred to me. Don't know how things work there but in the US, security clearance levels are given on a "need to know basis." That means, no matter what your job is, if info accessed does not relate specifically to your direct job description, you will not/ should not have clearance for said info.

Also, part of the reason BOA and other banking institutions have given for the stopping of processing payments has to do with [[and I'm paraphrasing) the hacking of their computers by alleged supporters of Assange and Wikileaks.

HACKING....now there is a word to contemplate in the middle of all of this. hmmmmm

Possibilities are endless but there is nothing in this so far, that points to Assange as being on the side of right, good, decency, or giving a dayum about anyone but Assange.

[tamla617]

ms_m
see my post #31 page 1
security clearence could be given to personnel to the highest level top secret or even black ops level [[that isnt even a "level" its so black),but if there was something they didnt need to know they wouldnt be told.
for example "bravo 2 zero" SAS unit [[gulf war 1) didnt know what "bravo 2 one" was up to [[or even knew it existed).in other words cleared to the same level but not everything on that level.

[bankhousedave]

Nice post Bob.

No civilised country would treat the private the way he is being treated whatever he had done. This is a mammoth state bullying someone who is little more than a child. For ***'s sake, how childish is it to put him in solitary confinement without even a pillow or blanket for his bed? Serial killers are treated better, and all he did was to show up some liars - if, indeed he did that. There used to be this thing where no one was guilty until it was proven in a court of law, with jurors and all. Now any bunch of treacherous gits can pick on the little guy as long as they are instruments of the knudklehead state.

[bobkayli]

Tamla617.: not bad for a ManU fan. I would add Dempsey, Hudson, Baldwin, Hinton and Tommy Hughes [[the hapless reserve goalkeeper nicknamed 'Five Goal' because of the likely goals against tally whenever he played). The proximity of the Kings Road and its temptations during the Swinging Sixties in London played its part in the club under-achieving. The closest they came to winning the league was in the mid-60s under Tommy Docherty. Top of the league going into an Easter match at Burnley. The match was preceded by a a training camp at Blackpool [[of all places for a group who loved partying). Many players sneaked out from the hotel on a night ignoring the curfew and enjoying the Blackpool high-life. The Doc got wind of this and caught them coming back in at some obscene hour [[with female company it was rumoured). He sent them all home and played the reserves at Burnley. The match was lost 6-2. the form slumped thereafter and it was the beginning of the end for the Doc. He was sacked a few months later. Loads of great tales from this era even if an underfilled trophy cabinet. Ossie and Alan Hudson were two of the finest players I ever had the privilege of watching. Even on a bad day, these two were worth the admission money alone. Besides the skill Ossie also knew how to look after himself against some of the toughies of the time, Jack Charlton and Norman Hunter of Leeds were always worth watching against him to see who was still standing at the end.
btw i'm sure many forwards of the day would have remembered Ron Harris instantly pointing to the scar tissue on their legs coming from Choppers less than cultured approach to defensive problem-solving.

[skooldem1]

The Truth Will Always Win
by Julian Assange



In 1958 a young Rupert Murdoch, then owner and editor of Adelaide's
The News, wrote: "In the race between secrecy and truth, it seems
inevitable that truth will always win."
His observation perhaps
reflected his father Keith Murdoch's expose that Australian troops were
being needlessly sacrificed by incompetent British commanders on the
shores of Gallipoli. The British tried to shut him up but Keith Murdoch
would not be silenced and his efforts led to the termination of the
disastrous Gallipoli campaign.
Nearly a century later, WikiLeaks is also fearlessly publishing facts that need to be made public.
I
grew up in a Queensland country town where people spoke their minds
bluntly. They distrusted big government as something that could be
corrupted if not watched carefully. The dark days of corruption in the
Queensland government before the Fitzgerald inquiry are testimony to
what happens when the politicians gag the media from reporting the
truth.
These things have stayed with me. WikiLeaks was created
around these core values. The idea, conceived in Australia, was to use
internet technologies in new ways to report the truth.
WikiLeaks
coined a new type of journalism: scientific journalism. We work with
other media outlets to bring people the news, but also to prove it is
true. Scientific journalism allows you to read a news story, then to
click online to see the original document it is based on. That way you
can judge for yourself: Is the story true? Did the journalist report it
accurately?
Democratic societies need a strong media and WikiLeaks
is part of that media. The media helps keep government honest.
WikiLeaks has revealed some hard truths about the Iraq and Afghan wars,
and broken stories about corporate corruption.
People have said I
am anti-war: for the record, I am not. Sometimes nations need to go to
war, and there are just wars. But there is nothing more wrong than a
government lying to its people about those wars, then asking these same
citizens to put their lives and their taxes on the line for those lies.
If a war is justified, then tell the truth and the people will decide
whether to support it.
If you have read any of the Afghan or Iraq
war logs, any of the US embassy cables or any of the stories about the
things WikiLeaks has reported, consider how important it is for all
media to be able to report these things freely.
WikiLeaks is not
the only publisher of the US embassy cables. Other media outlets,
including Britain ?s The Guardian, The New York Times, El Pais in Spain
and Der Spiegel in Germany have published the same redacted cables.
Yet
it is WikiLeaks, as the co-ordinator of these other groups, that has
copped the most vicious attacks and accusations from the US government
and its acolytes. I have been accused of treason, even though I am an
Australian, not a US, citizen. There have been dozens of serious calls
in the US for me to be "taken out" by US special forces. Sarah Palin
says I should be "hunted down like Osama bin Laden", a Republican bill
sits before the US Senate seeking to have me declared a "transnational
threat" and disposed of accordingly. An adviser to the Canadian Prime
Minister's office has called on national television for me to be
assassinated. An American blogger has called for my 20-year-old son,
here in Australia, to be kidnapped and harmed for no other reason than
to get at me.
And Australians should observe with no pride the
disgraceful pandering to these sentiments by Prime Minister Gillard and
US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton have not had a word of criticism
for the other media organisations. That is because The Guardian, The New
York Times and Der Spiegel are old and large, while WikiLeaks is as yet
young and small.
We are the underdogs. The Gillard government is
trying to shoot the messenger because it doesn't want the truth
revealed, including information about its own diplomatic and political
dealings.
Has there been any response from the Australian
government to the numerous public threats of violence against me and
other WikiLeaks personnel? One might have thought an Australian prime
minister would be defending her citizens against such things, but there
have only been wholly unsubstantiated claims of illegality. The Prime
Minister and especially the Attorney-General are meant to carry out
their duties with dignity and above the fray. Rest assured, these two
mean to save their own skins. They will not.
Every time WikiLeaks
publishes the truth about abuses committed by US agencies, Australian
politicians chant a provably false chorus with the State Department:
"You'll risk lives! National security! You'll endanger troops!" Then
they say there is nothing of importance in what WikiLeaks publishes. It
can't be both. Which is it?
It is neither. WikiLeaks has a
four-year publishing history. During that time we have changed whole
governments, but not a single person, as far as anyone is aware, has
been harmed. But the US , with Australian government connivance, has
killed thousands in the past few months alone.
US Secretary of
Defence Robert Gates admitted in a letter to the US congress that no
sensitive intelligence sources or methods had been compromised by the
Afghan war logs disclosure. The Pentagon stated there was no evidence
the WikiLeaks reports had led to anyone being harmed in Afghanistan.
NATO in Kabul told CNN it couldn't find a single person who needed
protecting. The Australian Department of Defence said the same. No
Australian troops or sources have been hurt by anything we have
published.
But our publications have been far from unimportant. The US diplomatic cables reveal some startling facts:
The
US asked its diplomats to steal personal human material and information
from UN officials and human rights groups, including DNA, fingerprints,
iris scans, credit card numbers, internet passwords and ID photos, in
violation of international treaties. Presumably Australian UN diplomats
may be targeted, too.
King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia asked the US
Officials in Jordan and Bahrain want Iran ?s nuclear program stopped by
any means available.
Britain's Iraq inquiry was fixed to protect "US interests".
Sweden is a covert member of NATO and US intelligence sharing is kept from parliament.
The
US is playing hardball to get other countries to take freed detainees
from Guantanamo Bay . Barack Obama agreed to meet the Slovenian
President only if Slovenia took a prisoner. Our Pacific neighbour
Kiribati was offered millions of dollars to accept detainees.
In
its landmark ruling in the Pentagon Papers case, the US Supreme Court
said "only a free and unrestrained press can effectively expose
deception in government". The swirling storm around WikiLeaks today
reinforces the need to defend the right of all media to reveal the
truth.

http://wikileaksnews.livejournal.com/17228.html

[skooldem1]

Governments are corrupt and anyone who wants information to be suppressed is suspect to me. Whether one feels the information leaked is gossip or a national security violation is besides the point. Let the reader decide. We are always being fed untruths and lies and some people will just accept that. I say bring it on.

[tamla617]

in another world assange wouldnt sit with murdoch,a man who controls all.
murdoch an information "eater" and never over fed would say that wouldnt he?

[ms_m]

Probably be a good idea to do some fact checking on the Private's so called treatment.

Let's start with the fact he's at Quantico, a Marine instillation. Many in the military are showing an intense hatred for the Private and his deeds. For some it's seen as unpatriotic. It's possible that being in general population would not be very good for Private Maning's health.

Also it's reported that he has access to religious counseling as well as psychiatric counseling and he's not totally isolated. He can speak with other inmates in solitary AND is allowed visitors of his choosing.

Greenwald the blogger, who first reported conditions has since recanted much of it, although not as prominently as he first reported the story.

The thing that really sent red flags up for me though, was the Private's own attorney. He stated he was well aware of the conditions but hoped they would be addressed without public pressure.

This guy has been in solitary for months and the lawyer wasn't in any hurry to address it?

PLEASE! [[insert rolling eyes here)

[ms_m]

ms_m
see my post #31 page 1
security clearence could be given to personnel to the highest level top secret or even black ops level [[that isnt even a "level" its so black),but if there was something they didnt need to know they wouldnt be told.
for example "bravo 2 zero" SAS unit [[gulf war 1) didnt know what "bravo 2 one" was up to [[or even knew it existed).in other words cleared to the same level but not everything on that level.

Tamala

I'm not sure what you're saying. I can only tell you how it works in our government. Here, even if you have a high security clearance, it's still broken down into sub categories and on a need to know basis. The reasoning behind it is to hopefully prevent these types of breeches.

[tamla617]

thats what i was saying,i think!meant to say anyway!
its the only way to run the security clearance and a who sees what information system correctly

[ms_m]

My 3rd cup of coffee is kicking in

Another thing to remember. It is the job of the Department of Justice and the POTUS to follow the laws of the land. Even if that law was signed by your predecessor. [[an even better reason to research who you place in office, since laws have consequences.)

Good or bad it's still the law and you are sworn to uphold our laws until you can get it changed by act of Congress.

I've said this in my thread, things are not always as simple as they appear.

[ms_m]

thats what i was saying,i think!meant to say anyway!
its the only way to run the security clearance and a who sees what information system correctly

Ok, got it.

[ms_m]

Oh yeah, I forgot. The picture of Maning's cell was actually a stock photo. Not necessarily Manning's cell.

You would think the lawyer would provide an actual photo of the actual cell, if conditions were "so deplorable."

[bobkayli]

Ms M: Just to be clear on two points, 1. of course the Private should be charged as a thief. If found guilty, he should be punished in a proper way [[with due regard for process and his rights though). 2 Mr Assange is a hustler like the rest and I certainly don't see him as a good guy. True or false, the rather seedy conduct he is being charged with in Sweden sets a context for him. Another guy abusing his position when given a platform. I do wonder though if these charges have also an element of 'honey-trap the celebrity' in them from the ladies concerned given the rather unusual nature of the charges.

I'm not so sure that revealing this gossip monitoring will really stop people gossiping, everyone loves a gossip in right company. Was it Hilary Clinton who said the other day something like 'the allies I've spoken to have said don't worry about it, you should hear what we say about you.' In my eyes more transparency about the human elements behind international diplomacy will have a good effect rather than bad. If dealing with a pompous buffoon alienates people, it must be better for this to be out in the open rather than letting it drag on like a sore that no-one wants to heal. Gossip is such that everyone on the inside knows it already. I see people rushing around my company every day saying that something is confidential and must not be discussed not realising that everyone is laughing at them behind their backs because everyone knows the secret anyway. Big organisations communicate in formal and often tardy ways so don't rely on them to know what's going on. It's better to be by the coffee machine in the morning when the cleaner takes her coffee. Through her job she has contact with everyone and everything and generally has to have a bit of personality in order to maintain the status quo with some of the egotists whose offices she cleans. You'll found out more about what's going on and get more done listening to her than anywhere else. Wikileaks is doing a bit of the cleaners job in that process.

That the private should pass through due process is clear to me, what is not clear is how the moral responsibility of the US Government and its employees is being taken on board in this. If this has been going on since 2007, it further strengthens the point that the wallet was left open by the window. If it was in the owners pocket where it should have been, the theft could not have taken place. In this respect someone in higher authority must have known or should have known what the private was doing. That information of a classified nature could be gathered in such a way doesn't alert someone in responsibility for guarding privileged information is astonishing. The CIA has ears everywhere but doesn't know what's going on in it's own backyard? The questions are endless but the conclusion comes back to the Neapolitan story. If you want to keep something out of others hands, the best thing to do is to look after it. This plainly has not been done here and the fault with this does not lie with Assange or the Private even if they have benefitted from this deficiency.

I hadn't imagined BOA to be government owned. My point is that it is another example of an organisation under American influence acting in a way that suits the US Government. It doesn't shock or surprise me. Probably I'd do the same in BOAs position. They can justify it as others have done before them [[Paypal, Mastercard and the like) and I'm sure that no-one will ever prove that the US Government nudged them in this direction. However it does strike a blow to the freedom of the press and in an insidious way has implications similar to the Chinese backdoor manipulation of Google by denying a non-favoured website finance. As such it also blurs further who is the good guy and bad guy.

I hope that you don't take my comments as anti-American or anti-Obama because they don't come from that optic. I love the US and a lot of people there. My love of US music is the reason I'm on this site. A lot of my political views have been influenced by what I've learned from soul music and the insights that gave into the struggles many Americans suffered over centuries. As a result I am always suspicious when a big shot claims a moral superiority and calls foul against a little guy and then starts using his muscle to get his way. I am much harder still on my own government and I voted for them only 6 months or so ago [[at least I voted for the current Home Secretary who is my local Member of Parliament).

[ms_m]

Last but not least [[and then I have a few things I need to do on the home front)

Another blogger was curious and decided to contact Lt. Villiard, one of th sources in the story. [[he tired to interview the second source but was denied an interview)

These are the questions [[below) that were asked and the answered. The blogger also noted, any other questions could be asked directly of Lt Villard since access to the Lt. can be easily found and obtained.

Bottom line, believe Greenwald [[who has recanted much of his article) or believe the Lt. but, informed opinions should be based on info from as many sources as possible and from all sides.

Q1) Is Pfc. Manning restricted on what he can watch on television?

A1) Pfc. Manning, as well as every other maximum custody detainee, is allotted approximately one hour of television per day. He may view any of the available channels. Viewing time may fluctuate slightly depending on the number of detainees being held at the time, but each detainee will be allotted an equal amount.

Q2) Is there anyone Pfc. Manning is not allowed to correspond or visit with?

A2) Pfc. Manning, as well as all other maximum custody detainees, is allowed to correspond and visit with only those HE has personally identified as whom he would like to correspond and visit with.

Q3) Is Pfc. Manning allowed to converse with other detainees?

A3) Pfc. Manning is allowed to converse with other detainees as long as the conversation does not interfere with good order and discipline.

Q4) How much time does Pfc. Manning get outside of his cell each day?

A4) Pfc. Manning is allotted one hour of recreation time per day, as is every other maximum custody detainee. Depending on the weather, his recreation time may be spend indoors or outdoors. Activities may include calisthenics, running, basketball, etc.

Q5) Is Pfc. Manning allowed to exercise in his cell?

A5) No detainees are allowed to exercise in their cell. As a matter of safety, all exercise must be supervised.

Q6) What type of bedding is Pfc. Manning issued?

A6) Pfc. Manning, as well as all other detainees, is issued adequate bedding.

Furthermore,

A maximum custody detainee is able to receive the same privileges that a detainee classified as general population may receive. These privileges include but are not limited to sending and receiving mail, command visitation, personal visitation. A maximum custody detainee also receives daily television, hygiene call, reading and outside physical activity without restraint. He receives the same approved daily meals from the base food service master menu as any other service member would receive. Due to a potential of either high probability of escape, those likely to be dangerous or violent, and those whose escape would cause concern of a threat to life, property, or national security; maximum custody detainees are under constant supervision and have regular interaction with authorized supervisory personnel assigned to the facility to include physicians.

[ms_m]

bobkayli

This is my question. [[actually 2) What did you learn that was so important to your overall knowledge base?

Did you learn anything that would keep you safer and make you sleep better at night?

[ms_m]

bobkayli

I can't speak for any other country, I can only report what I know about the one I live in. In spite of what many believe our President is making an effort in the need for more transparency. But you and I both know there will always be things that are a matter of National Security.

What should and should not be classified or why it's classified is not my job or yours. So in truth, neither of us can speak on that subject with authority.

Also, I don't know about your country but here,there are too many in the general public that can't comprehend or get the facts straight even when they read the facts in black and white or hear them reported. They are too busy trying to twist those facts to reflect their personal beliefs. All the transparency in the world will not change that.

I don't knock transparency. I relish it but reality tells me when all is said and done, people will believe only what they want to believe whether the facts are transparent or not.



Obama To Nominate A Defender For Whistle-Blowers

by Ari Shapiro

A federal office that ran aground under the Bush administration is about to get a new leader. The White House plans to nominate Carolyn Lerner to run the Office of Special Counsel, which represents federal whistle-blowers and other victims of discrimination within the government.

Whistle-blower groups applaud the nomination and call it long overdue.

Read More

Now the question is, will the USA Republican Party block this nomination like so many others they have blocked?

[ms_m]

I really have to go but something you said was alarming.

A lot of my political views have been influenced by what I've learned from soul music and the insights that gave into the struggles many Americans suffered over centuries.

...and I said this in my own thread.

Whether I post it, or you read and or hear it from the media or the internet PLEASE, check it out for yourself and use as many resources as possible.

Please do not be influenced by ANYTHING political you read on a music forum. This forum is only a small representation of the people living in this country.

[bobkayli]

1 In itself I learnt many things, the most important:
- the US Government manages a very good gossip service and I'd love to subscribe to it
- the Saudi neurosis on Iran was brought into sharp profile. Probably Iran knew this already so this would come as no surprise to them. But it has added a new dimension to me to comprehend the level of Saudi duplicity in the Gulf. Without excusing Bin Laden, I understand a bit better [[not to justify or excuse any terrorist action) why many Middle Eastern people are so anti-western. I never believed it was about religion, it's about western interest in Oil and defending Israel being used by some in the middle east to further their own wealth and interests at the expense of others. These 'others' need to fight back some way and some have chosen terrorism. It shows how dangerous the middle east is and that this extremism finds UK nationals in their ranks. It probably adds to my conviction that the Iraq invasion was unnecessary since the west was probably also being manipulated by some in the middle east that wanted Hussein put down and could have been handled differently
- it also confirms what I knew about you already that you are an excellent and determined analyst of what is going on in the US with a fine attention to detail

2 Unfortunately I still haven't found a holy grail to keep me safe and sleep better at night. Even alcohol seems to keep me awake more than it allows me to sleep so I rarely drink these days. However I do find the more information I have about what's going on in our name, the more I realise that those in control are humans like me so generally are incompetent, distant and disorganised. By keeping them slightly off-balance they can be stopped from becoming dictators and doing something truly dreadful. In that way, Wikileaks helps

[bobkayli]

my influences do not come so much from the forum but from the music and the artists, hearing many of the artists I loved as a child talk about living and working in pre-civil-rights days and what they and their forebears suffered was an awkward wake-up call to me. Curtis Mayfields gentleness is handling this remains an inspiration. It opened up going to Memphis and visiting the Lorraine Motel and Civil Rights Museum and seeing what people would do to another because of the colour of his skin and these things were condoned by authority at the time. these are the things I meant by mistrusting what the big government says. It doesn't mean everything government does is wrong but if you don't question it, don't be surprised if it comes back and bites you

[bobkayli]

Ms M enjoy the rest of your day!

[bobkayli]

I don't knock transparency. I relish it but reality tells me when all is said and done, people will believe only what they want to believe whether the facts are transparent or not.



Obama To Nominate A Defender For Whistle-Blowers

by Ari Shapiro



Read More

Now the question is, will the USA Republican Party block this nomination like so many others they have blocked?

Seems like the previous appointment was the classic 'the road to hell is paved with good intentions'.

The new appointment seems a step in the right direction. Lets hope both Obama and the Republicans can come to an agreement on this.

[ms_m]

You're so full of it.

You knew all of that stuff before this wikileaks scandal hit the 24 hr news cycle, and I have the emails to prove it.

Nice try though and thanks, on the compliment.

[ms_m]

Seriously though

Bush jr. left a big mess and that's an understatement but he can't even take credit for all of it.
A lot of it started with Reaganomics and his dumbing down of America. It snowballed from there, including help from Pres. Clinton.

It's why I have taken up the cause for Campaign finance reform in our country. Until we free our election system from corporate money we're going to continue to be screwed.

I've said it before, it doesn't matter the party. The political party only determines how bad the screwing and whether you get a thanks, dinner and doggie bag after.

President Obama to his credit is trying to work around it but only he can do so much until the rest of the country gets the message.

We really are the change we've been looking for. Once we stop fighting one another, whining, being scared and paying attention, maybe we will finally realize it. Hopefully the next generation will.

shrugs

[ms_m]

correction

I should say it started full force with Reagan because you can actually trace things back even further.
Franklin Roosevelt was probably the only true Progressive president this country has seen in modern times. There is a reason there hasn't been one since.

Carter tried and was bulldozed by Republicans and turned into a joke by the media back then. It's only now people are realizing what he was trying to tell us. Sadly the same will probably happen to Obama and most people will not recognize what he did until another Bush Jr. or worse takes over.

[ms_m]

There is a certain irony in this headline [[shaking head)

Assange Lawyers Furious Over Leaked Police Report

Lawd love a duck!

The story if anyone is interested.

I especially like this part.

The next sound you hear will be the world’s tiniest violin playing for Julian Assange.

[MotownSteve]

Let me see if I understand this. The are upset about leaks about the leaker? Brings a smile to my face.

[ms_m]

bobkayli

when you get a chance, please chk your SDF email.
Thanks
and hope you're feeling better.

[bobkayli]

Hi Ms M, have replied on SDF mail.

am feeling better more or less, thanks for asking.

[ms_m]

Okee dokee