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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by rovereab View Post
    The mono mix of Get Ready by the Temptations is very weak sounding in comparison to the stereo mix - that's a first for me liking a golden era stereo mix more lol.
    I think the exact opposite. The mono mix makes the song bearable for me.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by soulster View Post
    I think the exact opposite. The mono mix makes the song bearable for me.
    My problem with the mono mix is that it's sped up and it shows. Everything sounds a bit too high pitched - even the drums.

    It would be interesting to hear it at the right speed.

  3. #53
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    The track-by-track notes in the SITSOM CD booklet by Harry Weinger and Allan Slutsky state it is a kazoo doubling a celeste on 'Itching'. They say: "Neither Holland or Dozier knows who or why."

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sotosound View Post
    My problem with the mono mix is that it's sped up and it shows. Everything sounds a bit too high pitched - even the drums.

    It would be interesting to hear it at the right speed.
    I did a quick check on both the stereo and mono mixes I have on CD. They both run the same speed. I'd like to know what stereo CDs you are listening to. If you are listening to the vinyl, what pressings are they, and is your turntable running at the correct pitch? Could it be that your CDs or vinyl records are pressed at the wrong speed? I can even check two vinyl sources I have: the original stereo greatest hits, and the 1973 anthologies, as well.
    Last edited by soulster; 11-05-2014 at 09:14 PM.

  5. #55
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    Another hugely different [[and I believe containing alternate vocals) of a mono vs. a stereo track is the Brenda Holloway "Too Proud to Cry" track. The Mono [[LP) mix has, to me, a much stronger vocal. On the Stereo version, the alternate vocal sounds a lot less dramatic and broken up. I love the song in Mono, but to me it's only so-so in Stereo.

    RossHolloway, I think this was discussed before but I'd like to know your opinion of the different versions of this one.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by soulster View Post
    I did a quick check on both the stereo and mono mixes I have on CD. They both run the same speed. I'd like to know what stereo CDs you are listening to. If you are listening to the vinyl, what pressings are they, and is your turntable running at the correct pitch? Could it be that your CDs or vinyl records are pressed at the wrong speed? I can even check two vinyl sources I have: the original stereo greatest hits, and the 1973 anthologies, as well.
    I did a vinyl check myself, and the pitch difference is between the original UK hit single release [[Tamla Motown TMG688), which was effectively a 1969 re-release, and the stereo mix as it appeared on Motown Chartbusters Vol 3 later in 1969. The pitch difference isn't as great as a semi-tone, however. In fact it's quite subtle but it is there. The difference is aggravated by the way that the drums are EQ'd on the single mix, wherein they have no real bass weight and therefore sound sped up when compared with the way that they're EQ'd on the stereo mix.

    A bit like one of Pavlov's dogs, however, I've come to equate the single mix drum sound with a pitch difference.

    On CD, I'm actually hard-pressed to spot a pitch difference and perhaps there's a reason for that....

  7. #57
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    Two favourites of mine wherein I believe that the stereo mixes are better are "Ain't Nothing Like The Real Thing" by Marvin and Tammi, and "My Whole World Ended" by David Ruffin. In both cases, the strings and backing vocals - which to me are well-suited to the songs - are mixed out of the singles until the song is part-way through. I therefore end up skipping the mono mixes when I hear them on CD as they just don't sound right.

    Set against this is that I first heard the tracks in stereo and didn't hear the mono mixes until many years later. Any other views on these two?

    Another favourite of mine, but wherein we have a ballad that's better in mono [[IMHO) is "Who's Loving You" by The Jackson Five. In this instance, the strings and backing vocals that are all over the stereo mix like a rash from the very start destroy the feel, and the stripped down single mix smashes the stereo mix.

    Am I right in thinking that although the J5 hits were all recorded on the West Coast, this track was recorded in the Snakepit and therefore qualifies as classic motown?

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sotosound View Post
    I did a vinyl check myself, and the pitch difference is between the original UK hit single release [[Tamla Motown TMG688), which was effectively a 1969 re-release, and the stereo mix as it appeared on Motown Chartbusters Vol 3 later in 1969. The pitch difference isn't as great as a semi-tone, however. In fact it's quite subtle but it is there. The difference is aggravated by the way that the drums are EQ'd on the single mix, wherein they have no real bass weight and therefore sound sped up when compared with the way that they're EQ'd on the stereo mix.

    A bit like one of Pavlov's dogs, however, I've come to equate the single mix drum sound with a pitch difference.

    On CD, I'm actually hard-pressed to spot a pitch difference and perhaps there's a reason for that....
    A relative lack of bass will make music appear to be faster. It's psychological. EQ is another mastering trick engineers use to alter the perceived pitch. It's why many pop singles, especially from the 80s, are light on bass.

    The industry allows a 1% +/- difference in pitch because of the machines.

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sotosound View Post
    Am I right in thinking that although the J5 hits were all recorded on the West Coast, this track was recorded in the Snakepit and therefore qualifies as classic motown?
    Well, do you consider "Every Little Bit Hurts" by Brenda Holloway and "Come Spy With Me" by Smokey Robinson & The Miracles classic Motown? They were both cut in L.A., too.

  10. #60
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    Lol. Nicely selected tracks for discussion.

    "Every Little Bit Hurts" is a classic track but I'm not sure it fits my personal definition of Classic Motown. It's got that beautiful early to mid 60s West Coast sound all over it but it doesn't have the hallmarks that shout out "This is Motown". We know it's Motown because we're looking back 50 years into well-documented history. If, however, it had appeared on a non-Motown imprint I don't believe that people would have said "Hey, isn't that a Motown track?"

    "Come Spy With Me" is a bit weird. Smokey and The Miracles' vocals are clearly from their classic Motown period, but I wouldn't describe the backing track as Classic Motown.

    That's just a personal view, however, in terms of how I anchor music in my mind.

    What are your views, Soulster?

  11. #61
    RE: 'Get Ready'.

    There is definitely a speed difference between the single mix and the stereo L.P mix of 'Get Ready', and it's not just because of the heavy signal processing on the single mix.

    The single mix [[mixed by Lawrence Horn), whilst not an audiophile masterpiece, smashes the stereo L.P mix by miles!

    The blistering guitar track on the latter for some reason doesn't come in till halfway through the tune, whilst the horns are mixed up too high when compared to the single, and you can hardly hear Melvin Franklins 'Fee-Fi-Fo-Fum' parts! The reverb and eq on the strings give them a certain something on the 45 mix, whilst the piano and bass gel so well at the start of it when compared to it's stereo counterpart! And Jamerson's bassline [[and bass in general) is more prominent on the single mix too!

    Overall, this mix cooks!

    For me, the stereo mix of 'Get Ready' is possibly the worst from that period, and makes the song sound weak when heard this way.

    Thank god they included a superior stereo backing track mix on the Singing Machine Karaoke discs. Using the isolated lead vocal, as I was able to make my own stereo mix that sounds a bit more like the single!

    Cheers

    Paul
    Last edited by bradburger; 11-08-2014 at 02:49 PM.

  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sotosound View Post
    Lol. Nicely selected tracks for discussion.

    "Every Little Bit Hurts" is a classic track but I'm not sure it fits my personal definition of Classic Motown. It's got that beautiful early to mid 60s West Coast sound all over it but it doesn't have the hallmarks that shout out "This is Motown". We know it's Motown because we're looking back 50 years into well-documented history. If, however, it had appeared on a non-Motown imprint I don't believe that people would have said "Hey, isn't that a Motown track?"

    "Come Spy With Me" is a bit weird. Smokey and The Miracles' vocals are clearly from their classic Motown period, but I wouldn't describe the backing track as Classic Motown.

    That's just a personal view, however, in terms of how I anchor music in my mind.

    What are your views, Soulster?
    I think the Brenda Holloway song is every bit classic Motown. I also remember that 45 with the Tamla "globe" logo spinning and spinning around on the stereo as a kid. My mom loved that song.

    I have no opinion of "Come Spy With Me" being Motown or not. I mean, it's Smokey's voice! That's synonymous with Motown. It is an unusual song any way you look at it, though, even if it was attached to a film. To me, it's that guitar part on the intro and before the second verse that makes it different. It's one of my favorites, though. It does groove.
    Last edited by soulster; 11-08-2014 at 11:50 PM.

  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by bradburger View Post
    RE: 'Get Ready'.

    There is definitely a speed difference between the single mix and the stereo L.P mix of 'Get Ready', and it's not just because of the heavy signal processing on the single mix.

    The single mix [[mixed by Lawrence Horn), whilst not an audiophile masterpiece, smashes the stereo L.P mix by miles!

    The blistering guitar track on the latter for some reason doesn't come in till halfway through the tune, whilst the horns are mixed up too high when compared to the single, and you can hardly hear Melvin Franklins 'Fee-Fi-Fo-Fum' parts! The reverb and eq on the strings give them a certain something on the 45 mix, whilst the piano and bass gel so well at the start of it when compared to it's stereo counterpart! And Jamerson's bassline [[and bass in general) is more prominent on the single mix too!

    Overall, this mix cooks!

    For me, the stereo mix of 'Get Ready' is possibly the worst from that period, and makes the song sound weak when heard this way.

    Thank god they included a superior stereo backing track mix on the Singing Machine Karaoke discs. Using the isolated lead vocal, as I was able to make my own stereo mix that sounds a bit more like the single!

    Cheers

    Paul
    Indeed, the stereo mixes of "Get Ready" by the Temptations, and "I'll Be There" by the Four Tops are often cited as the worst mixes Motown ever released, though, I can find other examples. Perhaps some of those stereo mixes aren't always technically bad, but they are in terms of the choices made in mixing.

    I can always sync the stereo and mono mixes with software to find just how fast one may be over the other. I just may do that when I get time to kill.

    A few more lousy Motown stereo mixes IMO [[technically and otherwise):

    Ball Of Confusion [[That's What The World Is Today) - The Temptations
    My Girl - The Temptations
    You've Really Got A Hold On Me - The Miracles
    More Love - Smokey Robinson & The Miracles
    You Can't Hurry Love - The Supremes
    Shotgun - Jr. Walker & The All-Stars
    I Was Made To Love Her - Stevie Wonder
    Motoring - Martha & The Vandellas
    Quicksand - Martha & The Vandellas

    A few bad mono mixes [[gotta be fair):

    Stop! In The Name Of Love - The Supremes

    Hmmm...can't think of too many...
    Last edited by soulster; 11-09-2014 at 01:36 AM.

  14. #64
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    How abot the stereo mixes of up the ladder to the roof and Nathan jones

  15. #65
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    Another lousy stereo mix that has somehow become the standard version: "I Want You Back" by The Jackson 5.

  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by soulster View Post
    Another lousy stereo mix that has somehow become the standard version: "I Want You Back" by The Jackson 5.

    Yep.

    With "More Love", it sounds as though they gave the [[West Coast) drummer the day off.

    Also "The Nitty Gritty" by Gladys Knight and The Pips. If there's something that kills a tight groove it's a pile of echo.

    I also find that the stereo mix of "Signed, Sealed, Delivered [[I'm Yours)" lacks the punch of the single mix.

    And the stereo mix of "It's A Shame" by The Spinners is lame since it's more like a GC Cameron solo version since the rest of the band are waaaaay back in the mix. Seriously underwhelming.

  17. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sotosound View Post
    Yep.

    With "More Love", it sounds as though they gave the [[West Coast) drummer the day off.

    Also "The Nitty Gritty" by Gladys Knight and The Pips. If there's something that kills a tight groove it's a pile of echo.

    I also find that the stereo mix of "Signed, Sealed, Delivered [[I'm Yours)" lacks the punch of the single mix.

    And the stereo mix of "It's A Shame" by The Spinners is lame since it's more like a GC Cameron solo version since the rest of the band are waaaaay back in the mix. Seriously underwhelming.
    Agree on all counts!

  18. #68
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    I much prefer the stereo mix of Tears Of A Clown from Make It Happen to the mono mix on the same album for both the lead vocal and the instruments, the latter sounding very bland and echoey. The stereo mix being the version released with great success in the UK.

    I dislike the later stereo mix with the added drum track but like US mono mix where the added drum track sounds "in proportion" to the rest of the song instead of being too dominant on the stereo version.

  19. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by rovereab View Post
    I much prefer the stereo mix of Tears Of A Clown from Make It Happen to the mono mix on the same album for both the lead vocal and the instruments, the latter sounding very bland and echoey. The stereo mix being the version released with great success in the UK.

    I dislike the later stereo mix with the added drum track but like US mono mix where the added drum track sounds "in proportion" to the rest of the song instead of being too dominant on the stereo version.
    Agreed about the original version. I always feel, however, that Uriel Jones is doing Karaoke drumming on the later version in either mix since he's accompanying a pre-recorded track rather than driving an ensemble.

    The original drummer [[and therein lies a story) was playing with the other Funks when they laid down the original track and you can tell this as he kicks off the groove with a flourish and drives the track along with great four to the bar playing and some nifty fills.

    Uriel, however, kicks off with a slightly [[and possibly deliberately) delayed "Thud, thud" and then seems to follow the playing rather than leading it. This makes the track slightly ponderous for me; and his fills just aren't as lively as on the original version, either.

    Just an opinion.

  20. #70
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    And I'd love to hear which version of "War" by Edwin Starr people prefer.

    In the UK we got a fold-down of the stereo mix with a unique extended fade as our single release. Even the B-side, "He Who Picks A Rose" was a fold-down.

    The US single mix only reappeared on a later doubel A-side re-issue, and was quite a shock to these ears.

  21. #71
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    War! Good gawd y'all!

    I like both the U.S. stereo and mono mixes. The mono mix is tight, but sounds too clean. The stereo mix sounds raw, like I think the song should be. I guess I prefer the stereo mix there.

  22. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by soulster View Post
    War! Good gawd y'all!

    I like both the U.S. stereo and mono mixes. The mono mix is tight, but sounds too clean. The stereo mix sounds raw, like I think the song should be. I guess I prefer the stereo mix there.
    Me too. Because we got a fold-down of the stereo mix, Dennis Coffey's wailing guitar solo, which runs through all of the verses on the stereo mix, was blasted across the airwaves in the UK. In the mono mix, however, it's so far back in the mix as to be largely inaudible, and this detracts slightly from the musicality of the track. [[To my ears.)

  23. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sotosound View Post
    Me too. Because we got a fold-down of the stereo mix, Dennis Coffey's wailing guitar solo, which runs through all of the verses on the stereo mix, was blasted across the airwaves in the UK. In the mono mix, however, it's so far back in the mix as to be largely inaudible, and this detracts slightly from the musicality of the track. [[To my ears.)
    I always believed they tamed the lead guitar because they were worried that the Black or R&B audiences wouldn't like it, that it would be too close to rock music, hence the Jimi Hendrix thing.

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