4 Tops and HDH

[thisoldheart]

i do thank all of you for your suggestions for post motown work by hdh. i liked some of them ... but not a single song had the depth of sound, a melody, or lyrics that were even close to what hdh were doing at motown. i am not saying that i believe they should have replicated their motown sound, but quite honestly, i think work done by stax or hi records was much better than hdh's output on inviticus/hotwax. they seem to be trying for a grittier sound, but it comes off sounding so much less sophisticated than the motown work that i wouldn't even believe they were the writers & producers of this work. listening to this work makes me realize how much motown was a team because very few managed to have a better artistic career post motown.

... and whatsup with whoever was dissin' "third finger, left hand"? that's a "b" side mini masterpiece! thanks again ... but i remain unconvinced ....

[marv2]

i do thank all of you for your suggestions for post motown work by hdh. i liked some of them ... but not a single song had the depth of sound, a melody, or lyrics that were even close to what hdh were doing at motown. i am not saying that i believe they should have replicated their motown sound, but quite honestly, i think work done by stax or hi records was much better than hdh's output on inviticus/hotwax. they seem to be trying for a grittier sound, but it comes off sounding so much less sophisticated than the motown work that i wouldn't even believe they were the writers & producers of this work. listening to this work makes me realize how much motown was a team because very few managed to have a better artistic career post motown.

... and whatsup with whoever was dissin' "third finger, left hand"? that's a "b" side mini masterpiece! thanks again ... but i remain unconvinced ....

"third finger, left hand..... was a hit record in Philly!

[thomas96]

i do thank all of you for your suggestions for post motown work by hdh. i liked some of them ... but not a single song had the depth of sound, a melody, or lyrics that were even close to what hdh were doing at motown. i am not saying that i believe they should have replicated their motown sound, but quite honestly, i think work done by stax or hi records was much better than hdh's output on inviticus/hotwax. they seem to be trying for a grittier sound, but it comes off sounding so much less sophisticated than the motown work that i wouldn't even believe they were the writers & producers of this work. listening to this work makes me realize how much motown was a team because very few managed to have a better artistic career post motown.

... and whatsup with whoever was dissin' "third finger, left hand"? that's a "b" side mini masterpiece! thanks again ... but i remain unconvinced ....

You can't really compare HDH to Stax... Stax is purely southern soul, and HDH was producing more 70s funk/soul. I agree that their material at Motown was better. Doesn't take away from what they did at their own labels.

[bradsupremes]

Invictus/Hot Wax is its own distinctive sound, yet closest any record company got to sounding like Motown. This is due to HDH's writing and production [[along with other former Motown writers & producers) and the usage of the Funk Brothers in their recordings.

Everyone's entitled into their own opinion, but I do not understand all of the praise over "Third Finger, Left Hand." To me, it's far from HDH's best work. To me, gems like "Leave It In The Hands Of Love" and "One Way Out" are some of HDH's underrated masterpieces.

[snakepit]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AX7kd6HHQNc

[snakepit]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sAAUV02A6Jg

[snakepit]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E42R25UjURY

[snakepit]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFNpprgPoBU

[snakepit]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kgsJcggLBtw

[MIKEW-UK]

[MIKEW-UK]

[MIKEW-UK]

[MIKEW-UK]

[MIKEW-UK]

[MIKEW-UK]

[MIKEW-UK]

[Nothing But Soul]

Great pick, Mike. I totally missed hearing "Love Factory" when the record was out in 1973. In fact, the first time I heard it was on the Invictus Soul Box Set that came out in 2008. It's now one of my favorite HDH productions.

[thisoldheart]

thanks all! you have given me an education. but many of these links are to hdh productions and not to songs written and produced by them ... but the inviticus label does have a consistent sound. surprisingly, it sounds nothing like the late, very intricate songs that hdh layed down at motown. inviticus's singers are much rougher around the edges and do not seem to have the powerful individuality of reeves, stubbs, isley, ross, etc. the label does not have the polish of motown, but perhaps hdh no longer wanted that, which seems odd because hdh were always using the smooth sounds if the andantes to augment their later motown records.

i personally don't care for the direction hdh took after leaving motown, especially since they seemed to be continually building on their previous songs at motown. to hear them step back into a less complex way of writing and producing is a disappointment to me.

despite all of your examples i don't see a case that shows anything but a steep decline in hdh's authority as songwriters and producers. the inviticus work is an interesting postscript to an amazing career at motown, and not much more. i will still not be buying that huge soon to be released boxed set, but if anyone wants to send it to me as a gift. i won't refuse!

[roger]

i will still not be buying that huge soon to be released boxed set, but if anyone wants to send it to me as a gift. i won't refuse!

thisoldheart LOL ...

I won't be buying that boxed set either, but in my case it is because I already have multiple copies of most of the tracks either on C.D. or Vinyl.

Personally, although I like most of HDH's Invictus/Hot-Wax/Music-Merchant output I find that I play it very infrequently compared with their Motown output in the 1963-67 period.

Incidentally, have HDH ever publically acknowledged that they wrote early hits on their label "Band of Gold"/"Give Me Just a Little More Time"/"While You're Out Looking For Sugar" etc. as although everybody "knows" that they wrote them the releases still omit them from the songwriting credits in favour of "Dunbar/Wayne"

As far as I can recall the first time that they ever appeared as songwriters was on "Chairman of The Board" by THE CHAIRMEN OF THE BOARD in late 1971 ....



Roger

[thisoldheart]

roger, i know that hdh wrote under different names. but of the examples posted here, most are written with someone else or not written by hdh at all. just because someone was on inviticus didn't mean hdh were going to write and produce every song for them. the poor guys seem exhausted enough by the time they started their label!

[MIKEW-UK]

My personal take - When I first heard the Invictus / Hot Wax / Music Merchant recordings issued by Holland Dozier Holland, I never did think that the sound / tonal mixes, instrumentation and composition were a facsimile of the Motown sound. Generally I think it fair to say the Invictus sound was differentiated significantly from Motown Hitsville recordings. I think there were a number of reasons why the recordings were so differentiated - the studio, mixing, definitely the instrumentation / arrangements, and the musicians. McKinley Jackson played a huge role in arrangements at Invictus, and threw the spotlight on guitars, keyboards and bass, with rhythm being the hallmark. Choppy guitars drove the whole thing, whether fast or slow paced recordings. They assembled a crew of cast of musicians who were used constantly as the equivalent of the Funk Brothers - Mckinley Jackson keyboards / arrangements - Ray Parker Jr with ver y distinctive choppy playing style, Tony Newton Bass, Dennis Coffey fuzz guitar, Greg Perry keyboards. Whilst many of the players had played as backing musicians for motown artists on tour, generally they had not been in studios recording for motown as fully fledged funk brothers. I also believe HDH were looking for a harder edge sound than characterised by motown. Finally, HDH were for the first time running their own business, with all the issues that entailed - contracts , legal, finance, cash flow, distribution, artist roster, artwork, studio. At Motown they could dedicate themselves to the creative side of the house. With their own set up, they had to distribute their energies across many different functions. The end result was that the Invictus sound started to become somewhat formulaic.... nevertheless I loved it for its distinctiveness and vibrant sounds.... I'd welcome your comments, I may be totally incorrect in my analysis and facts.....

Here's a classic which epitomises everything I was trying to describe........

[roger]

roger, i know that hdh wrote under different names. but of the examples posted here, most are written with someone else or not written by hdh at all. just because someone was on inviticus didn't mean hdh were going to write and produce every song for them. the poor guys seem exhausted enough by the time they started their label!

Well thisoldheart, I imagine that when HDH left Motown they had a handful of songs that they were halfway through writing and I have no difficulty in believing that "Give Me Just a Little More Time" by CHAIRMEN OF THE BOARD was a song that was a hang-over from 1967 and originally written with the FOUR TOPS or SUPREMES in mind. The structure of the song is classic HDH with all those looping riffs and repetitive piano parts.

I think it is now well established that "Edith Wayne" was a pseudonym for the threesome, though I'm not sure how RONALD DUNBAR fitted in on the songwriting side of things.



Otherwise I agree with you that most of the links posted have been of songs where HDH's involvement was as a "production team" which could mean anything from being fully involved to them merely signing off the final mix and agreeing that the record could be released!!

I think we also need to take into account that the popular music world in 1970/71/72 was very different to that in 1964/65/66 when HDH were at their peak at Motown in that the cult of the "singer-songwriter" had firmly taken root which was good for the likes of CURTIS MAYFIELD/ISAAC HAYES/STEVIE WONDER etc. but not so much for vocal acts backed by production teams [[of course this was about to go into reverse with the arrival of "Disco"), so I think that is why Invictus/Hot Wax were aiming for a "rougher" sound.

Having said that, I think it is interesting that LAMONT DOZIER effectively re-launched himself as a "singer-songwriter" during the Invictus years, [[essentially "HOLLAND-DOZIER" was actually Mr Dozier on his own) which makes me think that the Holland brothers concentrated more on the business end of things during the time they had their labels.

Roger

[144man]

I've always liked the Jones Girls' "Your Love Controls Me", which has the distinction of having been written by Holland-Dozier, Dunbar, Wayne.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmm-SzfwRJQ

[thisoldheart]

I've always liked the Jones Girls' "Your Love Controls Me", which has the distinction of having been written by Holland-Dozier, Dunbar, Wayne.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmm-SzfwRJQ

what year is this from? this sounds more like hdh did in their heyday at motown, except there is no driving funk bros big beat, the song is weak, and that poor jones girl on lead would never have gotten a job at motown in 1966!

[theboyfromxtown]

Shirley Jones sings lead on Your Love Controls Me.

[roger]

"Your Love Controls Me" is from 1972 thisoldheart .. interesting that it is credited to "Edith Wayne" as well as "Holland Dozier" ...

Roger

[Sotosound]

I just listened to the instrumental mix of "Give Me Just A Little More Time" and it shows that the backing track, in terms of both arrangement and playing, is absolutely straight to the point with nothing left to the imagination. In essence, it's out and out pop. When you've heard it then you've heard it.

If I consider classic Motown, however, there's always something to be discovered after a few listens. Perhaps some neat guitar licks from Joe Messina or Marv Tarplin, or some great piano playing by Earl Van Dyke or Johnny Griffiths. When it comes to Invictus and Hot Wax, however, these things just aren't there in the same measure.

There's pop and funk and even some country but in the main there ain't no jazz. Ok, there are some exceptions but these are rare.

PS I could have started this thread in three ways, the Uriel Jones way [[Now, I have just listened....), the Benny Benjamin way [[I have just listened...) or the Pistol way [[Just listened...).

[radionixon]

As Roger said above, the world had changed, tastes had changed. The big difficulty is comparing the HDH of 1971 with the HDH of 1966 [[which I suppose is always likely to disappoint), when maybe a fairer comparison would be to compare these Invictus sides with what Motown were doing in 1971 without them.

[theboyfromxtown]

And I have to say that I preferred the HDH of 1971 to Motown of 1971.

[Sotosound]

As Roger said above, the world had changed, tastes had changed. The big difficulty is comparing the HDH of 1971 with the HDH of 1966 [[which I suppose is always likely to disappoint), when maybe a fairer comparison would be to compare these Invictus sides with what Motown were doing in 1971 without them.

That's a valid point. Motown was split across two coasts and had gone down the pop route with the J5. Most of the arrangements were also more formal and carefully orchestrated right down to the drums, whereas in 1966 - 1968 things were much looser and The Funk Brothers hit a groove and held it for the duration of the track.

Strangely enough, the Philly sound brought back some of that jazz.

[snakepit]

HDH box set reduced on Amazon Uk..now only £49

[bradsupremes]

HDH box set reduced on Amazon Uk..now only £49

I really want the HDH box set, but it's out of my budget.