Supremes Rock a bye your baby

[supremester]

What I love about this vomit bag is that he attacks the anti-Mary people for "being crazed loons who go to her videos just to be negative and if they are not fans, they should just stay the f&%k away." Yet, here he is, 2 weeks after it's added to Youtube, doing EXACTLY what he calls others "crazed loons" for doing. LOL Hypocrite. Loon.

Speaking of the "b-word" [[I won't waste the typing on the full word), looky what I found today [[check out comment #1)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2KYDao8j6w&sns=fb

[Lulu]

What I love about this vomit bag is that he attacks the anti-Mary people for "being crazed loons who go to her videos just to be negative and if they are not fans, they should just stay the f&%k away." Yet, here he is, 2 weeks after it's added to Youtube, doing EXACTLY what he calls others "crazed loons" for doing. LOL Hypocrite. Loon.

I've told you crazy kids, calling any woman but Sarah Palin a dumb b***** is simply not tolerated!

[144man]

Whatever you say. I am just about the truth! Unfortunately, that usually does not come out in it's purest form until after the person's death.

And that's often because because the dead are unable to defend themselves. Al Jolson was not doing anything unusual for the times and the type of plagiarism mentioned here goes on to this day. I detect the whiff of anti-Semitism in the attacks upon him.

For further clarification I'm referring to the quotations cited rather than what members are saying.

[kenneth]

Speaking of the "b-word" [[I won't waste the typing on the full word), looky what I found today [[check out comment #1)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2KYDao8j6w&sns=fb

I never heard of this incident before, but I think Diane handles herself well and doesn't come off as a prima donna. Her complaint about the body search precedes all the flap which happened in recent years following the more intrusive searches following 9/11. I think in this interview she's careful not to over dramatize the situation but has a legitimate complaint and makes her point with class and aplomb.

[marv2]

And that's often because because the dead are unable to defend themselves. Al Jolson was not doing anything unusual for the times and the type of plagiarism mentioned here goes on to this day. I detect the whiff of anti-Semitism in the attacks upon him.

For further clarification I'm referring to the quotations cited rather than what members are saying.

No! Death means there is no longer any chance to add to or take away from the truth which is impossible anyway. To do so would not be the truth! How do you defend willful sin?

No anti-semitism here. I never once brought up or even considered his religion. That is inpertinent to the discussion. It is also weak attempt to throw us off Al Jolson and his black face act.

[144man]

No! Death means there is no longer any chance to add to or take away from the truth which is impossible anyway. To do so would not be the truth! How do you defend willful sin?

No. Death means you can say anything you like about dead people whether it's true or not. I could say whatever I liked about your great-grandfather, and who could prove me wrong?

[marv2]

No. Death means you can say anything you like about dead people whether it's true or not. I could say whatever I liked about your great-grandfather, and who could prove me wrong?

No you cannot say whatever you want about my relatives........ You can say whatever you want about your relatives. Think about it.

[144man]

There's nothing to stop me legally. The dead can't sue over here. I don't see what you're getting at.

[Jimi LaLumia]

trying to put the world of 50 years+ ago into contemporary context is just plain moronic.. "Rock A Bye.." was a standard song, I enjoyed it as a kid, by The Supremes and others, never once giving a thought to 'Dixie", it was just another line in the song..more importantly, three lovely young black women were singing the song on the tv in my 60's racist living room,,dismantling the power of the song by co opting it, throwing it back in the face of the white folks and making it their own... and in the process, converting my old school racist parents of the Depression era into Supremes fans..true story.. Gordy's brilliant, 'covert op'[["Project Show Tunes") was a stunning success, blunting the harshness of 'core' r&b that would have never won over the white audience, by presenting The Supremes to us as 'the bait' that led us to Marvin, Stevie, Junior Walker, Tempts and Tops and all the rest.. job well done, Berry Gordy.. Mission Accomplished!

[144man]

trying to put the world of 50 years+ ago into contemporary context is just plain moronic.. "Rock A Bye.." was a standard song, I enjoyed it as a kid, by The Supremes and others, never once giving a thought to 'Dixie", it was just another line in the song..more importantly, three lovely young black women were singing the song on the tv in my 60's racist living room,,dismantling the power of the song by co opting it, throwing it back in the face of the white folks and making it their own... and in the process, converting my old school racist parents of the Depression era into Supremes fans..true story.. Gordy's brilliant, 'covert op'[["Project Show Tunes") was a stunning success, blunting the harshness of 'core' r&b that would have never won over the white audience, by presenting The Supremes to us as 'the bait' that led us to Marvin, Stevie, Junior Walker, Tempts and Tops and all the rest.. job well done, Berry Gordy.. Mission Accomplished!

That's just about sums up how I feel.

This subject is too important to cheapen it by personal attacks on people who might hold different opinions. Let's deal with each other civilly for once and let the debate be settled by rational argument rather than on personalities.

[milven]

I thought we were now discussing Ben Vereen, but if we are still on JOLSON, as I said in an earlier post, I read "JOLSON: The Legend Comes To Life" by Herbert G Goldman. It tells all, the good the bad and the ugly, warts and all. So nothing negative said about him surprises me. ....

Let me bring the topic back to The Supremes and bring some joy to your life at the same time by saying that JOLSON was probably a DIVA and a bitch and the Diana Ross of his generation.

FEEL GOOD ?

Whatever you say. I am just about the truth! Unfortunately, that usually does not come out in it's purest form until after the person's death.

Speaking of the "b-word" [[I won't waste the typing on the full word), looky what I found today [[check out comment #1)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2KYDao8j6w&sns=fb

Thank you for providing the link to the comment number one
"This is one dumb bitch. Shut up Diana! "
By coincidence , I also saw that comment while browsing You Tube,and that was why I used the sarcastic comparision between Diana and Jolson. But the sarcasim went above his head

[144man]

What evidence is there for the identity of DetroitLives313?

[LadyLola]

While true, coming from someone who, publicly, suggested gay people "deserve" HIV for their lifestyle choice, that's a pip!

Whoa!! This guy said that? Hold my purse honey. I'm going in!

[LadyLola]

I've told you crazy kids, calling any woman but Sarah Palin a dumb b***** is simply not tolerated!

Can we include Michelle Bachmann in that list too?

[milven]

What evidence is there for the identity of DetroitLives313?

Ask him. It's a simple question which he should have no trouble answering. But if his past history is any indication, he will ignore your question and then you can form your own conclusion.

[Lulu]

Ask him. It's a simple question which he should have no trouble answering. But if his past history is any indication, he will ignore your question and then you can form your own conclusion.

After you've picked yourself off of the floor for falling over laughing about all this talk about "the truth"!

[antceleb12]

I've enjoyed "Rock-a-Bye" and "Swanee" for YEARS before even finding out about what some of those songs' minute references were. And you know what? I still enjoy those songs. Singing them and listening to them have not in any way, shape, or form influenced or romanticized my feelings about slavery and plantation life. Realistically, unless you are already a racist, I doubt these songs have made many people reevaluate the cruelty and sickness of slavery. Grant it, there are a lot of people out there with the delusion that slaves were treated nicely and that they loved their masters, etc. etc. However, I don't think this ideology comes from these songs. Had it not been for historical propaganda and verbal and textual manipulation of history [[much, much more so than these songs could ever do), I don't think these songs would have been such a big deal. Black face definitely did not help, but these songs, on their own, stand just as songs. Musically, they're just darn good songs. Nowadays, and even fifty years ago, when Garland, the Supremes, and Franklin were singing these songs [[all of whom, by the way, changed lines such as "old black Joe" to "soft and low," or "mammy mine" to "mommy mine"), I don't think many people understood or paid great attention to the references to slavery and plantation life. A lot of people don't even know what a "mammy" is, or "Old Black Joe!" I think this is especially true today. Play these songs to much of today's youth, and any racial or historical overtones would fly WAY over their heads.

[Jimi LaLumia]

exactly correct..and you can thank Berry Gordy's "Doris Day" approach [[which i call The Trojan Horse) for making this possible decades later..

[marv2]

It was in poor taste to have the Supremes on national television singing this type of song. Just a few years earlier they were being shot at [[for being black) while touring the South with the Motortown Revue. Both Mary and Diane have recounted several personal incidents where they experienced wide open racism while visiting relatives in the South.

Al Jolson promoted racial stereotypes.

fini!

[Lulu]

It was in poor taste to have the Supremes on national television singing this type of song. Just a few years earlier they were being shot at [[for being black) while touring the South with the Motortown Revue. Both Mary and Diane have recounted several personal incidents where they experienced wide open racism while visiting relatives in the South.

Al Jolson promoted racial stereotypes.

fini!

And what of Aretha singing it on the Steve Allen show in 1964?

[supremester]

In his Yahoo Group Mary Wilson Of The Supremes, he has talked about posting clips on Youtube under that name.

What evidence is there for the identity of DetroitLives313?

[supremester]

I don't believe Jolson was a racist or intended harm to the black experience by doing his black face. He stopped when it was made known to him that it was not appreciated. He also, for years, brought black musicians and support acts with him wherever possible to try to force acceptance. He felt that he was advancing the acceptance of black music by exposing people to it. If others choose to disagree, we disagree. I don't think anyone like Judy, Sammy, Queen Ree or The Supremes singing these songs brought any harmful effect to anyone any more than wearing 100% cotton clothing does today.

[kenneth]

The Aretha clip is fantastic! Love her. I notice she does change a few of the lyrics as well, "Old Black Joe" becomes "Little Joe." "Old Black Joe" is of course a reference to the old Stephen Foster song.

As an aside, my father was born in Massachusetts, had parents who were Armenian immigrants. I doubt he even knew exactly where the Mason-Dixon line was, but he used to sing "Dixie" to us as children, and yes, when we'd be bouncing on his knee! And I guarantee you he didn't have a racist bone in his body!

[soulster]

Blackface is what we got when we have a dominant and oppressive group of people running a country that is determined to squelch any and all culture that it sees as a threat.

After doing dome research, I do not believe Al Jolson deliberately set out to insult Black people. He was a Lithuanian-Jewish immigrant who, in many ways, understood that Black Americans shared a common experience with oppression, and felt it. Now, many Whites indeed use blackface as a form of ridicule and a way to put forth their stereotype of Blacks. They did the same thing with other races and ethnicities, too. The problem is, those negative stereotypes have stayed with us for generations. Even today, young White high school and college students put on parties where people put on huge afro wigs and platform shoes, and caricature stereotypes of Blacks of the 70s, perpetuating more stereotypes. OTOH, I personally know older Black men and women who embody all of those stereotypes, right down to "Aunt Jemima", and the "thug". And, to turn the tables, what about Eddie Murphy's many stereotyping roles when he did "Saturday Night Live" in the early 80s? What about Richard Pryor?

I did a little reading up on Al Jolson. I looked at Wikipedia, and what is written here is favorable, and, to my mind, believable about him:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Jol...ican-Americans

I also did some reading up about the practice of Whites doing blackface, which I also found very credible and accurate:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackface

And, lastly, knowing about the history of race and racism in our country makes me wanna throw up my hands at it all:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minstrel_show

As with anything, what you read is always a product of the writer's biases.

America, and most of the world, are full of stereotypes. There will always be ignorant people who accept them. There's nothing we can do but be ourselves, whatever that may be, and fight the lies where ever you can.

Oh, yeah, about that video clip of The Supremes? It wasn't very well done, but I didn't see anything wrong with it at all. I have to admit, though, that anytime I hear a Black singer sing any type of song about "dixie", I kind of wince, as "dixie" is a somewhat codified name for White pride of the old south, at least that's my perception.

I never heard of the song until I discovered Aretha Franklin had a hit single of it in the early 60s. But, it's no wonder it has never, to my knowledge, showed up on any of her modern-day comps.

[soulster]

A)You know nothing about Al Jolson - he was a civil rights pioneer and known to be that, you imbecile.

There's no need for the name-calling. Marv is allowed to have his views, as the rest of us are. Marv may just be part of a younger generation than you, and sees the world a bit differently than you do. I am probably closer to Marv's age, so I fully understand his outrage. I notice that age is something that is just not mentioned on this forum. maybe that is because many members are 60+?

B) Performing in black face was not an indication of racism in the first half of the century. It was a form of musical entertainment from decades before.

Well, it was perceived as offensive by some. If you look to the modern day, one could say the same things about the Blaxploitation films of the 70s sich as "Superfly", or the "gang" films of the late 80s like "Boyz In The Hood", or the Black films of the 90s, like "Barbershop". The only difference is that more modern films were made by people like John Singleton, Spike Lee, and Mario Van Peebles.

D) After the YEARS of your homophobic hatred being spewed all over the internet, I cannot believe you have the cahoonas to even mention anything of the kind. You are free to feel and speak as you please, but know that your hate filled rhetoric against any group makes you the equivalent of ANY hate filled bigot against ANY group. I'm not going to sully this forum with your vile sputum, but anyone who would like examples of your venom may contact me privately.

Let's not conflate the issue with your hatred of the guy. Oh, BTW, I'm still waiting for anyone to point me to the many thousands of things Marv has allegedly said about gays on the internet. Enough of that. Back to the topic...

E) Berry Gordy gave up NONE of his pride - Motown did more for civil rights than you obviously can comprehend. Two years after this clip aired, Diana Ross performed Afro Vogue to an audience who tuned in to see Baby Love, until it segued into Somewhere and a Free At Last speech.

Good point!

[soulster]

Can we include Michelle Bachmann in that list too?

Let's include Cliven Bundy, while we're at it.

[soulster]

This subject is too important to cheapen it by personal attacks on people who might hold different opinions. Let's deal with each other civilly for once and let the debate be settled by rational argument rather than on personalities.

Yes, let's prove we can get through the rest of this thread without the nasty insults.

[milven]

.....I never heard of the song until I discovered Aretha Franklin had a hit single of it in the early 60s. But, it's no wonder it has never, to my knowledge, showed up on any of her modern-day comps.

It has been on quite a few of her compilation albums, but on Columbia, not Atlantic. One recent compilation even has a bonus DVD of her performing the song at the piano on the Steve Allen Show
http://www.arethafranklin.net/us/new...deluxe-box-set

[supremester]

You're right about the name calling. I thought about deleting it, but decided to use the vernacular of the person I was addressing. He chooses, often, to use derogatory names or adjectives to make his point, I wanted to get mine across. As a rule, I think name calling is sophomoric. With Marv, I made an exception that I still question, but am sticking with.

When I saw black face as kid, it never occurred to me that some might think that character might be construed as a commentary on real people any more than Sean Heys is on gays, Charlie Chan or Barbra Streisand for Jews. I just see them as characters like Bozo the Clown. I believe that was the intent, but sadly, not he result. The research I did on Jolson 40 years ago told of a man who pushed the agenda of blacks in Vaudeville.

If I run across his hate speech and I think of it, I'll send some your way. I and others have posted examples here but they usually get deleted.

There's no need for the name-calling. Marv is allowed to have his views, as the rest of us are. Marv may just be part of a younger generation than you, and sees the world a bit differently than you do. I am probably closer to Marv's age, so I fully understand his outrage. I notice that age is something that is just not mentioned on this forum. maybe that is because many members are 60+?




Well, it was perceived as offensive by some. If you look to the modern day, one could say the same things about the Blaxploitation films of the 70s sich as "Superfly", or the "gang" films of the late 80s like "Boyz In The Hood", or the Black films of the 90s, like "Barbershop". The only difference is that more modern films were made by people like John Singleton, Spike Lee, and Mario Van Peebles.



Let's not conflate the issue with your hatred of the guy. Oh, BTW, I'm still waiting for anyone to point me to the many thousands of things Marv has allegedly said about gays on the internet. Enough of that. Back to the topic...



Good point!

[soulster]

[QUOTE=supremester;224356]

When I saw black face as kid, it never occurred to me that some might think that character might be construed as a commentary on real people any more than Sean Heys is on gays, Charlie Chan or Barbra Streisand for Jews. I just see them as characters like Bozo the Clown. I believe that was the intent, but sadly, not he result. The research I did on Jolson 40 years ago told of a man who pushed the agenda of blacks in Vaudeville.

Well, when Carroll O'Conner played Archie Bunker, people saw it as a comment on bigots.

Who is Sean Hays? Never heard of him.

If I run across his hate speech and I think of it, I'll send some your way. I and others have posted examples here but they usually get deleted.

Feel free to send me the links privately.

[Lulu]

[QUOTE=soulster;224365]

Well, when Carroll O'Conner played Archie Bunker, people saw it as a comment on bigots.

Who is Sean Hays? Never heard of him.

Sean HayES played Jack [[McFarland) on Will & Grace and won an Emmy for the role and was on the show for all 8 seasons. He and Megan Mullally were the support for Eric McCormack and Debra Messing and IMHO, the funniest thing about the show. However, the "Jack" character exhibits many of the gay male stereotypes. Hayes didn't officially come out of the closet in real life until about four years after the show ended.

Feel free to send me the links privately.

Sean HayES played Jack [[McFarland) on Will & Grace and won an Emmy for the role and was on the show for all 8 seasons. He and Megan Mullally were the support for Eric McCormack and Debra Messing and IMHO, the funniest thing about the show. However, the "Jack" character exhibits many of the gay male stereotypes. Hayes didn't officially come out of the closet in real life until about four years after the show ended.

[smark21]

Sean Hayes played Jack on Will and Grace.

That rancher Bundy nnd his remarks that African Americans were better off picking cotton as slaves just shows there are still many people in the US who still view slavery as a great time.

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireS...marks-23457303

[Lulu]

Let's include Cliven Bundy, while we're at it.

Oh GAWD YES...or that idiot KKK shooter from Kansas who, it was discovered, had solicited a black male prostitute some years ago!

[Lulu]

Sean Hayes played Jack on Will and Grace.

That rancher Bundy nnd his remarks that African Americans were better off picking cotton as slaves just shows there are still many people in the US who still view slavery as a great time.

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireS...marks-23457303

Yes Phil "Duck Dynasty" Robertson made similar comments about blacks and slavery...ick! This is way more offensive, I think, than Dixie or Song of the South​! Sheesh!

[Roberta75]

TOh, BTW, I'm still waiting for anyone to point me to the many thousands of things Marv has allegedly said about gays on the internet. Enough of that. Back to the topic...

lolololol. Seriously, weve all seen his hateful homophobic comments on youtube and they been posted in this here forum on more than one occassion but let me put it to you like this, let dear marv2 DENY that he is DetroitLive313?

Roberta

[milven]

lolololol. Seriously, weve all seen his hateful homophobic comments on youtube and they been posted in this here forum on more than one occassion but let me put it to you like this, let dear marv2 DENY that he is DetroitLive313?

Roberta

Roberta, you know there will be no reply.

What evidence is there for the identity of DetroitLives313?

Ask him. It's a simple question which he should have no trouble answering. But if his past history is any indication, he will ignore your question and then you can form your own conclusion.

[jobeterob]

Why are the most bigoted prejudiced mean people often the first ones to step forward and cry "that is racist, he's a racist, he's a bigot?"

Anonymous names.

What fears are being hidden! Homophobic attacks! Cry racism but attack everyone.

Strange.

[supremester]

I thought I had heard and read everything until I ran across this. I was a adult in my mid 20's at Duke before I ever heard talk like this or even knew anyone who had - and had to go to Durham, NC to do it. She was a faded, 6' 340 # Southern Belle named Aurora who I was certain had, at one time, been a man. Later, I found out I was wrong about that, but she was so sweet and genteel until I invited the only black person at our complex to my Christmas Party. When I was a kid, there wasn't any "us" vs "they" - it was all just kind of "we" and I admit I was ill equipped in this regard to raise two mixed race girls - they have taught me plenty. I wonder if he's related to Ted Bundy......or was. I believe, as time marches on, that these last few holdouts will die away and we will be free of the yoke of bigotry. A black president even a decade ago was, to many, unthinkable. Gay marriage has reversed in a heartbeat. This rancher will be dust one day with his thoughts and songs like Rockabye can be appreciated for the simple, shallow form of entertainment they were meant to be without any negative racial connotations.

Sean Hayes played Jack on Will and Grace.

That rancher Bundy nnd his remarks that African Americans were better off picking cotton as slaves just shows there are still many people in the US who still view slavery as a great time.

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireS...marks-23457303

[soulster]

lolololol. Seriously, weve all seen his hateful homophobic comments on youtube and they been posted in this here forum on more than one occassion but let me put it to you like this, let dear marv2 DENY that he is DetroitLive313?

Roberta

Not to help hijack this thread into another Marv-bash fest, but, I guess I was on hiatus from this forum when he allegedly posted all this stuff. I said allegedly because I don't know if this is true. I don't know who Marv is or what he's about. You have to send me some links and verify that he is who you say he is. I'm one of those people who has to see it to believe it.

[soulster]

Why are the most bigoted prejudiced mean people often the first ones to step forward and cry "that is racist, he's a racist, he's a bigot?"

Anonymous names.

What fears are being hidden! Homophobic attacks! Cry racism but attack everyone.

Strange.

I just want to see some evidence. Like John Lennon said: "Gimme Some Truth". Until then, it's all hearsay to me.

[smark21]

Here's an article in today's NY Times about the sub culture devoted nostalgia about slavery which songs like Swanee River and Dixie help to perpetuate in various ways, if one thinks seriously and honestly about the lyrics and their implications.

http://takingnote.blogs.nytimes.com/...s/?ref=opinion

[Roberta75]

Not to help hijack this thread into another Marv-bash fest, but, I guess I was on hiatus from this forum when he allegedly posted all this stuff. I said allegedly because I don't know if this is true. I don't know who Marv is or what he's about. You have to send me some links and verify that he is who you say he is. I'm one of those people who has to see it to believe it.

Sorry but im not turning this into another marv2 thread he get enough attention [[that he crave and love imo) on this here forum. We all know hes DetroitLive313 and weve seen the disgusting comments hes wrote on youtube and theyve been posted here before. Ive ask marv2 to DENY that he is DetroitLive313 but he cant. Thats all im saying.

Roberta

[soulster]

Here's an article in today's NY Times about the sub culture devoted nostalgia about slavery which songs like Swanee River and Dixie help to perpetuate in various ways, if one thinks seriously and honestly about the lyrics and their implications.

http://takingnote.blogs.nytimes.com/...s/?ref=opinion

Wow! By never having been to the south, I never knew it was this bad. I knew these people existed. Hell, I see them all the time. I just didn't know how ingrained they are into the "system" down there. Well, I should know, because we have those kinds of kooks here in the west, obviously!

[soulster]

Sorry but im not turning this into another marv2 thread he get enough attention [[that he crave and love imo) on this here forum. We all know hes DetroitLive313 and weve seen the disgusting comments hes wrote on youtube and theyve been posted here before. Ive ask marv2 to DENY that he is DetroitLive313 but he cant. Thats all im saying.

Roberta

And, i'm just saying to show me some evidence.

[milven]

And, i'm just saying to show me some evidence.

We all know that Marv is DetroitLive313. As I pointed out three times to others, just ask him. He can say yes or no. But he will avoid the question and not answer. Then you can form your own opinion.

Let the next post following mine be your post asking him. His non response will be your answer.

It's that simple.

[Roberta75]

We all know that Marv is DetroitLive313. As I pointed out three times to others, just ask him. He can say yes or no. But he will avoid the question and not answer. Then you can form your own opinion.

Let the next post following mine be your post asking him. His non response will be your answer.

It's that simple.

i wouldnt indulge soulster on this any further dear milven He know good and well that hes seen marv/Detroitlive313 disgusting homophobicx postings in this here forum so id stop answering his further requests.

Fondly.

Roberta

[kenneth]

We all know that Marv is DetroitLive313. As I pointed out three times to others, just ask him. He can say yes or no. But he will avoid the question and not answer. Then you can form your own opinion.

Let the next post following mine be your post asking him. His non response will be your answer.

It's that simple.

What Milven is describing is known in legal terms as a "manifestation of acquiescence." Sometimes even not answering can be a confirmation or affirmation if a reasonable person would deny the behavior.

[supremester]

You can join MWOS and see for yourself.

I just want to see some evidence. Like John Lennon said: "Gimme Some Truth". Until then, it's all hearsay to me.

[Lulu]

You can join MWOS and see for yourself.

What is MWOS? Mary Wilson Original Supreme​ or something to that effect?

[supremester]

Yes, it's Marv's Yahoo Group and is lots of fun