Sept 2, 1997 LA Times: Wilson vs. Motown, Ragland and Others

[midnightman]

Oh come on REDHOT everyone know Mary never slept with Kate Smith i think and hope the person who wrote it was joking. Yes some mean things are said about Mary that shouldn't be said but your friend say terrible things about Diane that shouldnt be said as well so EVERYBODY need to stop bashing all former Supremes and by that I mean Diane Ross and Mary Wilson and Lynda Lawrence. We DONT know these women personally so stop ALL the personal attacks on these ladies. Be real grateful that they still around to entertain us and leave the who slept with who and who killed who [[which is vicious and disgusting to accuse) out of it and focus on the music.

Please stay positive.

Roberta

It's the least anyone can do. The Supremes made history, we can't be satisfied on that? Let's try to, for the sake of the remaining eight alive and for the one that has long departed. Respect all the Supremes. Real talk.

[REDHOT]

Thank you,Roberta and Jobeterob.

[TheMotownManiac]

Feet............yeah........

Thank you dear Milven. I have a real special place in my heart for Miss Barbara Martin or anyone who work with feet for that matter.

Fondly,

Roberta

[supremester]

Let me clarify a few things. I am not bashing Mary. I am reminding people of the truth in topics not originated by me. If people do not like the truth about Mary & RTL for example, it is best not to bring it up. I didn't ask her to change her story a dozen times, I'm merely reminding y'all about how it went down. It is not easily dismissed as "oh, everybody lies" by me because it resulted in character assassination that caused a lot of people a lot of unhappiness. And since that result was the intent, I find it ugly and the lowest form of mean-spiritednosity. Everything I discussed in this topic was fact - not fiction and not interpretation. If anyone does not like the term liar used about one who repeatedly lies, I'm happy to use another more preferrable term. Please let me know what it is you prefer.


Mary & Kate Smith? C'mon. Let me ex-plain what I was try-ing to say with that an-ol-o-gy: I find it ludicrous that anyone would think the term "sleeping with the boss" could possibly apply to this topic. Those who advance that way are in positions that they are generally not effective in and thus attain and retain those positions because of favors performed and not on job performance. That is hardly the case here. . If sleeping with the boss after you have recorded 5 #1 singles in 9 months and become the label's biggest selling act ever in 6 months is needed to get you ahead - how much farther is there to go? To suggest it is bashing Miss Ross. Why do the people who rally against bashing do it themselves? I asked if Mary, who was shagging both Tom Jones & Flip Wilson was on their shows because she slept with them. Did they do it on merit? ONE week in the top ten and they are signed to both shows? Hmmmmmmm....... That game can be played many, many ways. Certainly Mary got advanced in The Supremes when she was shagging Pedro - the boss. It is a matter of public record that Motown definitely wasn't in favor of her signing leads. And unlike Diana Ross, Mary was not exactly a commercial success doing it - so what is your point? In fact, a case can be made since the decline of the 70's Supremes paraalelled the increase in Mary's leads in the group. Lucille Ball was shagging Desi Arnaz - was her success on i Love Lucy because of sexual favors? My bf and I watched "Ethel's Birthday" tonight and I suggest the shagging had zero to do with the brilliance of her performance. I do not think Mary shagged Kate Smith, I do think it is easy to toss mindless platitudes without any thought to the practical application of the statement or the arrogance to ignore it's own bashing quotient.

[jobeterob]

I wonder if Mary now thinks that Pedro "advanced" her in the 70's Supremes? I wonder if it was he who suggested she sue Karen Ragland? Or he who suggested they release "Touch" as a single? Or appear in South Africa when no one else would? Or he who suggested they sing their new disco release at an Oldies Show in Madison Square Garden?

[supremester]

Well it's really sad that both Flo and Mary gave their careers over to totally inexperienced boyfriends/husbands. Sad also that Miss Ross got blamed for their eventual level of success. One thing I wonder about is what was Motown thinking for future releases after Bad Weather? Was there other stuff in the can? Certainly they weren't bailing on JML because Jimmy Webb & Bad Weather tanked. Were they on hold until Jean split? I don't get that at all. I wonder if Mary considered going to Berry and saying, "You know, Berry, you were right about Jean. I was so anxious and scared with Diane leaving, I should have listened. Can you forgive me and work with us now?" Even if she didn't mean it. Instead, she sued for the name and they were not even Supremes legally for nearly two years. Now, Mary agrees that Jean wasn't the correct choice. Her exact words, "Berry Gordy has the knack to know who the best person was to put in any situation. That's his greatest gift and he built Motown because of it. He knew Jean wasn't the correct choice, but I just didn't want Syreeta." She wasn't knocking Jean at all, mind you....... But at the time, Diana, Mary, Martha etc were all just doing what they were told and might not have thought about things objectively. Now all three have built successful shows on their own. Miss ross' show is so tight, so perfectly crafted to her needs and the audience's desires, that a case could be made for her never changing it. She is getting some of the best reviews of her life. When Gladys, The J5, Marvin & the Tempts all split, Motown might have had the resources and time to devote to relaunch The Supremes had Pedro not been involved. I believe they were salvageable.

[jobeterob]

They were definitely salvageable although I don't know that they would have been even as successful as the later day Temptations.

They needed a whole new look, style, sound ~ a reinvention that failed with Jimmy Webb although that was a clever idea.

If the relationship between Diana and Mary had been better, there would have been another life for Mary and some of the later day Supremes ~ as in the continuous touring of the Beach Boys, or the life that got breathed into the Tempts with the Temptations Movie. But the two attempts turned into publicity stunts/fiascos and then Diana didn't care anymore and the later day Supremes aren't strong enough publicly to do much on their own.

[REDHOT]

LOL You're a JOKE,and a SAD joke,i had to say it,I'M SORRY,you wanted a REACTION,there,you have it,I TRYED LOL

[supremester]

I think that even in '77, had Motown been approached with the new idea Scherrie & Susaye had, that Motown might have helped out. They were all talented and Mary could have done torchy sexy ballads while Susaye did her vocal-isms and Scherrie handled the pop tunes and old hits. Even in '83, I think The Supremes would have worked with Motown's help but Mary wanted to be the lead and they didn't want that. It's tougher to launch The Supremes than The Temptations because so much emphasis is on each one and Ross was the face of the group. The Tempts had David & Dennis & Eddie& Paul - so they were better than ever. Imagine the classic lineup PLUS Dennis......omg.

[REDHOT]

LOL This is a one person show,REALLY?

[jobeterob]

LOL This is a one person show,REALLY?

It was.

That's why she is still OUT there and the rest of them struggle.

That's just not a popular answer with died hard Maryites.

But it's fact.

[thisoldheart]

if my memory serves me well, and before this devolved into the usual diana and mary train wreck there was a question posed that seemed to imply the general pop audience was not overly aware of who was and who wasn't a supreme when diana ross held down the lead.

i was quite aware of the names of the group. "more hits" had their names on the cover, and "back in my arms again" had their names prominently featured. it is true they were no john, paul, george & ringo ... but they were the closest we had here in the states. i am quite certain that ms. ballard was in quite a bind not being able to acknowledge her work with the #1 trio in the country after she left motown.

it seems too many people much younger than me write with a lot of unsubstantiated certainty about an era they were not witness too!

[kenneth]

To save me from having to wade through all the Diane vs. Mary vitriol, can someone tell me who is in the 4 Tops now, who are performing with Mary Wilson? I didn't realize they were still performing after Levi's death. Of course I know Duke is still living, so am curious who is now singing with him and the other remaining Top [[Lawrence Payton I believe?).

[REDHOT]

You really don't get it,this time Jobeterob,i was saying,this is a one person show,had nothing to do,with Mary or Diana,i don't play those GAMES,What i was trying to say,how SICK this fan is,in every way puttin' everyone down,but Diana,but doing it in a nice and nasty way lol,REALLY?he can say nice things about Diana,nothing is wrong with that,but don't do it,at the cost of the other former SUPREMES,it really becomes SICK,there i said it lol,

[supremester]

If you are referring to me, REDHOT, please understand: I am not putting anyone "down. " Nor do I see anything as Diana vs Mary. They have totally different careers and there is nothing to compare. If someone brings up a topic like someone foolish enough to think a global icon can be made by sexual favors, I stated my opposing view and pointed out others who "slept with the boss" and were not successful. Did I turn Paul Petersen into Diana vs Mary? No. Picture of Cindy? No. Personally, I think it's sick to criticize others for behavior you personally participate in yourself. Ditto RTL. I didn't bring it up, but I stated my opinion which included me saying all Miss Ross had to do look past the things that pissed her off and bring the train back to the station. I also suggested why I think she didn't. Just above I was saying nice things about MSS and that I think as an act they could have worked with stronger direction from Motown or the new phase S&S were planning. If you think I'm sick, you should see the lies certain people write on Youtube - ugly, vicious lies.....what do you call that? At least I tell the truth - which sometimes is unpleasant, granted. Shall I send you some of the posts I'm talking about? I'm guessing you'll say no. I can go months on end reading snide remarks about Miss Ross on here and not a word from you about how sick THAT is. It's not ME who needs a doctor, Blanche!

[REDHOT]

It's silly and childish,i'm thinking,how old are these people,anything for a REACTION lol,again NICE AND NASTY,at the same time lol SICK

[jobeterob]

It's silly and childish,i'm thinking,how old are these people,anything for a REACTION lol,again NICE AND NASTY,at the same time lol SICK

But Supremester is right!

Either because she was the star or because she made more money, in some quarters here it is acceptable to piss all over Diana Ross.

If pissing on Diana is good, it is good for Mary and all other Supremes.

If WE want to stop it, we ALL stop it. Not just part of the crew.

Right?

[blueskies]

It's not ME who needs a doctor, Blanche! Sure nice to see Baby Jane Hudson pop up!

[supremester]

We watched it a few weeks ago with some friends who had not seen it before and had a blast. So well acted [[save for the neighbors and Elvira) and has one of my very very very fave character actresses [[Marjorie Bennett) as Edwin's mother......... The newly initiated LOVED it, btw. Anyway, it reminds me of RTL where Miss Ross is perceived to be the villian only to learn later it was Mary that caused the accident. Pictured: Jane checks train schedules to see if it had left the station as Blanche says, "can you bring it back???"

[Roberta75]

It's silly and childish,i'm thinking,how old are these people,anything for a REACTION lol,again NICE AND NASTY,at the same time lol SICK

But you keep giving him or her a reaction dear REDHOT which isnt real positive imo. If you dont like what Supremester write about Miss Mary Wilson then do what many do when marv2 write vile things about Miss Diane Ross and by that I mean ignore the negative my dear. Its not real construktive to keep adding to a thread when you are clearly agittated.

Have a beautiful and blessed Sunday and stay positive and dont get upset dear.

Roberta

[REDHOT]

I'll say it again,this has nothing to do with,Diana bein' a big star,or as some of you put it,Mary not making it,the way Diana made it,any one here,can say what they like,this is a public form lol,how silly and childish,again,how old are these people?Roberta upset?NEVER, some[[not all)of these fans,are not well.

[midnightman]

Redhot, Roberta is right. It's best to ignore anyone that annoys anyone. It's silly to engage 'em. I know how it is because I've been there in some boards [[not here though) but I don't think it's cool to engage in back and forth nonsense.

[jim aka jtigre99]

I hope everyone is as excited as I am that nearly 50 years after the Supremes' first top 40 hit that Diana Ross has just had a successful and well received tour, that Mary Wilson continues to perform both rock and symphony/up close/Lena Horne tribute shows that are well received as is the Supremes' gown exhibits and that she is headlining a Holiday Show in Chicago with fellow Motown alumni the Four Tops and that Scherrie Payne and Lynda Laurence formerly of the Supremes toured Australia to a large and enthusiastic audience. Susaye Greene is currently in the recording studio and has recently been in Twenty Feet from Stardom, The Game Don't Change and Basketball Wife. I know that TRUE fans of the Supremes are happy that the former members continue doing well. Congats to all of them!

[midnightman]

^ This. Thank you so much for saying all of that. No point in bickering nonsense.

[REDHOT]

Well said Jim aka Jtigre.

[thisoldheart]

can those of you who have nothing better to do that diss the members of the supremes kindly make your own website? the rest of us would rather talk motown music!

thanks ...

[supremester]

Jim, I couldn't agree more. I see all former Supremes shows when I can and I am very happy they are all working, as I have said many times how lucky we are to have who we have. I just saw Miss Ross a few nights ago making about 15 times this year, saw Mary's show a year ago and chatted with her [[who knows exactly how I feel about "things")at Bette Midler the night after Motown The Musical premiered and at the premiere [[outside - I wasn't invited). I also spoke to Lynda a few months ago [[I have supplied all three current Flos, I believe, their luggage.) I've never seen Susaye's show but I wish them all well.

I hope everyone is as excited as I am that nearly 50 years after the Supremes' first top 40 hit that Diana Ross has just had a successful and well received tour, that Mary Wilson continues to perform both rock and symphony/up close/Lena Horne tribute shows that are well received as is the Supremes' gown exhibits and that she is headlining a Holiday Show in Chicago with fellow Motown alumni the Four Tops and that Scherrie Payne and Lynda Laurence formerly of the Supremes toured Australia to a large and enthusiastic audience. Susaye Greene is currently in the recording studio and has recently been in Twenty Feet from Stardom, The Game Don't Change and Basketball Wife. I know that TRUE fans of the Supremes are happy that the former members continue doing well. Congats to all of them!

[jillfoster]

Geez... and you all call ME a troublemaker? Look at all this mess, and I wasn't around for any of it! What a bunch of fuckin jackwagons you all are! LOL

[jillfoster]

Jim, I couldn't agree more. I see all former Supremes shows when I can and I am very happy they are all working, as I have said many times how lucky we are to have who we have. I just saw Miss Ross a few nights ago making about 15 times this year, saw Mary's show a year ago and chatted with her [[who knows exactly how I feel about "things")at Bette Midler the night after Motown The Musical premiered and at the premiere [[outside - I wasn't invited). I also spoke to Lynda a few months ago [[I have supplied all three current Flos, I believe, their luggage.) I've never seen Susaye's show but I wish them all well.

You chatted with Mary? Well, I'm sure that won't happen again when she is shown what you say about her on these forums. And I highly doubt you spoke with her, seeing as how your ass wouldn't be able to fit through her dressing room door.

[supremester]

A) Mary knows exactly what I say on these forums and also knows it's the truth. I've said nothing untrue that would offend her on here or anywhere. B) She has extra wide dressing room doors in her rider so I can visit. C) She didn't have a dressing room at I'll Eat You Last or at The Motown Musical. D) There are people on this forum who have witnessed me talking to Mary [[although I admit at least one was a bit nervous about it at first) and heard me tell her "I saw Miss Ross 30 times last year." If you don't have her personal email, you can probably reach her through her website and ask her what she dislikes more: the homophobic comments and ugly lies and rants about Miss Ross made by certain people or my comments [[provide whichever you think worse) and see what she says. I think you'll be disappointed, but try it.

You chatted with Mary? Well, I'm sure that won't happen again when she is shown what you say about her on these forums. And I highly doubt you spoke with her, seeing as how your ass wouldn't be able to fit through her dressing room door.

[REDHOT]

LOL i'll say it again,some of these fan[[not all)need help,they don't know when to STOP.

[Penny]

LOL i'll say it again,some of these fan[[not all)need help,they don't know when to STOP.

Redhot, a friendly reminder to please stay positive.

Penny
Schlepping Avon and staying positive.

[skooldem1]

It has always been funny to me to see how angry some folks get around here when someone other than Diana Ross is criticized. Only when "others" are criticized do many here consider it a problem.

[supremester]

Exactly my point all along. And the thing is, I'm not even criticizing Mary, I'm only discussing facts that transpired. I'm not calling her names or inventing bad things about her. It's OK - they are avid fans that love their Mary. I go to Diana Ross 15-40 times a year......not exactly normal either ; ). Mary is widening her her dressing room doors for me today. It's the same issue since the beginning of the internet: Gloria Upson says JMC's first sold more more than Diana's first; so Vera Charles points out Ross's second outsold JMC's first 3 and on it goes. By the way, Sleepin' outsold Touch by over a hundred units! Ha Ha on them!

[blueskies]

Gloria Upson says JMC's first sold more than Diana's first. Gloria also said...."and I stepped on the ball."

[REDHOT]

Some people don't know when to STOP LOL,they just go,on and on about the same MESS,REALLY? LOL

[jobeterob]

Sleepin outsold Touch?
Tell me more!

[supremester]

I notice that ---- they just keep repeating themselves over and over and over and over............but in a positive way, of course!

Some people don't know when to STOP LOL,they just go,on and on about the same MESS,REALLY? LOL

[jobeterob]

Sleepin............155000 vs Touch, 80,000

or not even that much?

[marybrewster]

To save me from having to wade through all the Diane vs. Mary vitriol, can someone tell me who is in the 4 Tops now, who are performing with Mary Wilson? I didn't realize they were still performing after Levi's death. Of course I know Duke is still living, so am curious who is now singing with him and the other remaining Top [[Lawrence Payton I believe?).

Hi kenneth-

Lawrence Payton passed June 20, 1997.

The current line-up of the Four Tops is: Duke Fakir [[Original member), Lawrence Payton Jr. [[son of Original Four Top), Ronnie McNeir [[former Motown artist, and "Top" since 1999) and Harold Bonhart [[former member of "The Spinners"; "Top" since 2011).

[supremester]

They may have pressed or shipped that many, but I doubt that after returns, those figures are even close. Both are from LP's that wre already on the market and both underperformed their predecessors. Also, both were horrendous choices for radio. I couldn't believe they released Sleepin' [[however, it's not like the album was full of potential either)

Sleepin............155000 vs Touch, 80,000

or not even that much?

[jobeterob]

They may have pressed or shipped that many, but I doubt that after returns, those figures are even close. Both are from LP's that wre already on the market and both underperformed their predecessors. Also, both were horrendous choices for radio. I couldn't believe they released Sleepin' [[however, it's not like the album was full of potential either)

Sleepin 30000; Touch 10000

[smark21]

NO matter how many 45s Sleepin and Touch sold, no doubt nearly every single unit sold is now decomposing away in a landfill and sitting forgotten in someone’s basement, attic, or gathering dust in the back room of a flea market.

[supremester]

It fascinates me because it illustrates where the powers that be heads were at. They are trying to push an act forward with 45's and this is what they came up with? Ditto the singles from Diana & Marvin. No wonder their careers were spotty. The Tempts were so lucky to have Norman in charge.

[jobeterob]

It should have been Love Twins and then My Mistake Was To Love You off of Diana and Marvin and skip You're A Special Part of Me altogether.

Although they were single disasters I still really like both Touch and Sleepin as songs; Touch more than Sleepin.

[supremester]

I agree on Love Twins - if ever there was a track for fall of '73 - it was that. Just Say Just Say was also very strong single material. 2 superstar acts coming off #1's and all you can think of is Special Part Of Me???? That may have been the first time such an event occurred and look at the result: an over produced B -side makes it to #12 on the strength of it's roots. Imagine what a real single might have done. Again, it shows someone was asleep at the switch!
I never liked Touch from the get-go. it's a hot mess to my ears and I think the main problem is the Mary/Jean thing - they sound like they are competing. I know they aren't, but Jean is just too bargie-innie all the time. I would have just given it to Mary and be done with it. I think she might have really had a chance with it. I've grown used to it now, cuz I've tried to hear what others like about it, but it just ain't happening. Sleepin was fine for an LP cut on that crazy LP............ugh........don't get me started.

[midnightman]

Marvin seemed to love "Love Twins" because he did that a lot on his last tour. "Love Twins" was more his speed though Diana sung most of the vocals lol it would've helped them both.

[jobeterob]

Released at a different time in their careers, You're A Special Part of Me would have done nothing, to quote Stevie.

[supremester]

LOL.......exactly. Where/when did he say this? You know, it's not a bad track, when all we had was that 45, it was cool to have in that I liked it enough to play it but I knew it wouldn't hit. It sounded awful on the radio. I was caught up in the excitement of my two fave voices together that I enjoyed that mess. I drew the line at the flip side. Most of the other tracks would have hit harder and led the way to a better received project.

[jobeterob]

LOL.......exactly. Where/when did he say this? You know, it's not a bad track, when all we had was that 45, it was cool to have in that I liked it enough to play it but I knew it wouldn't hit. It sounded awful on the radio. I was caught up in the excitement of my two fave voices together that I enjoyed that mess. I drew the line at the flip side. Most of the other tracks would have hit harder and led the way to a better received project.

I was mainly referring to the Stevie Wonder single aimed most at Richard Nixon.

Still, even with the oddball first single, Diana & Marvin was on the Album Chart for nearly a full year.