Sinead O'Connor open letter to Miley Cyrus

[soulster]

Don't confuse my conservative opinions...

Bingo! I knew it! I was just wondering how long it would be before you admitted it. Obviously, I have a bias against conservatives.

Sinead O'Conner probably misconstrued Miley Cyrus's position in the industry. Miley has repeatedly made it clear that no one told or advised her to do what she did on stage. That was of her own doing, just as much as Janet Jackson deciding to create her "wardrobe malfunction". There was no misogyny going on in either of these cases. The females were empowered. I wish people would quit making women victims against the evil males.

[antceleb12]

Antceleb, I’m wondering what you would advocate as a solution to the music of the Mileys of the world. You seem to think that artists should set a positive example for children. Do you think that because there is always a risk a child might hear or see something objectionable that artists should cater their acts to be child friendly at all times? That would make for a very boring and soporific pop culture landscape and frankly children, once they get old enough, will rebel against it. Kind of like what Miley is doing now as she’s trying to shed her wholesome Hannah Montana image, to much success I might add.

BTW, Tina Turner has had drug references in her music. She played The Acid Queen in the film version of The Who’s Rock Opera Tommy.

I'm not saying that at all. If I thought every artist should be a Mary Poppins-knock-off, I certainly wouldn't be a big fan of soul music [[you should see the loons who preach that Motown's women were whores, or that soul music the devil's music). That's not what I'm saying. I don't know if the above Tina Turner clip was performed on television or not, but my concern is that Miley's performance is not suitable for national television. I mean, that stuff goes around the internet faster than Elizabeth Taylor did with her husbands! At a private concert is somewhat of a different story. You won't see many [[if any) young children, but rather adults, or young adults, who have a grasp on right and wrong. Grant it, in this day and age, more and more concerts are being leaked onto the internet - but not at the same rate as a nationally broadcast program.

I did forget about the Acid Queen. While I love Tina's music, this was [[for me) really bizarre. Actually, I played Tommy when I was in high school, but I didn't really know so much about who the Acid Queen was. But that's a different story...Again, though, that was at a different time and in a different situation where if parents didn't want kids to see "Tommy," that was much more easily preventable. Today, though, with technological advancements, anything can be uploaded anywhere, and kids can literally access almost anything that they want.

I'm not saying we should all live in a sunshine-and-lollipops kind of a world [[or, rather, a house full of Doris Day records), and I'm not saying that celebrities should act like perfect saints all of the time, but I do believe that acting wild and crazy all of the time sends out the wrong message. I mean, if a teacher or a doctor or a firefighter were to behave recklessly like some celebrities do, they'd be fired, and, in some situations, possibly blackballed. But celebrities can get away with so much more, and it just seems that so many kids these days don't get why it's not responsible to act that way when they grow up.

[antceleb12]

Bingo! I knew it! I was just wondering how long it would be before you admitted it. Obviously, I have a bias against conservatives.

Wrong again. I am not a registered Conservative. And that presumption is aggravating beyond belief. Not that it's any of your business, but I am a registered Independent. I don't like drawing party lines. When I say "conservative opinions," I'm not talking anything political. My social views and my political views don't coincide.

[soulster]

Wrong again. I am not a registered Conservative. And that presumption is aggravating beyond belief. Not that it's any of your business, but I am a registered Independent. I don't like drawing party lines. When I say "conservative opinions," I'm not talking anything political. My social views and my political views don't coincide.

You, yourself, said you have conservative views. I knew you meant social views, and my feelings about them stand: I have a bias against social conservatives for many reasons.

[antceleb12]

You, yourself, said you have conservative views. I knew you meant social views, and my feelings about them stand: I have a bias against social conservatives for many reasons.

So what you are saying is that everything "conservative" is inherently bad? You don't know me, and you're only aware of a fraction of my belief system, so don't judge me. I might have SOME conservative values, but that does not make me prejudiced, or a bigot, or whatever negative stereotypes you associate with conservatism. That's the issue. People hear "oh, she's a conservative" or "oh, he's a liberal" and they instantly make up their mind as to what kind of person he or she is. I don't know you, so I have no right to form an opinion of you. It'd be nice if you could keep an open mind, too.

[soulster]

So what you are saying is that everything "conservative" is inherently bad?

I believe so. Social conservatism stifles freedom of thought. It removes free will, and always conforms to someone else's social doctrine.

You don't know me, and you're only aware of a fraction of my belief system, so don't judge me.

All I know about you is what you tell me. You are an educator of children of an unknown age, and you hold social conservative views on which I may not agree.

I might have SOME conservative values, but that does not make me prejudiced, or a bigot, or whatever negative stereotypes you associate with conservatism.

I never said you were, but you did plenty of judging of Miley Cyrus's behavior and attire. So, can I include being judgmental in those negative stereotypes?

That's the issue. People hear "oh, she's a conservative" or "oh, he's a liberal" and they instantly make up their mind as to what kind of person he or she is.

I have an issue with people who use children as their last line of argument. Somehow, it's always about children. And, why do I have a problem when people start talking about "morals"? It is because morals are highly subjective. Who's morals should prevail? Mine? Yours? I do respect your morals. Your criticisms are valid, but I don't have to agree with them.

I don't know you, so I have no right to form an opinion of you. It'd be nice if you could keep an open mind, too.

OK. But, I have had a LOT of very negative interaction with people who consider themselves conservatives, both socially and politically. It does color my opinion of them, and your response to the whole Miley thing rubs me the wrong way, just as i'm sure my opinions bother you.

[antceleb12]

I believe so. Social conservatism stifles freedom of thought. It removes free will, and always conforms to someone else's social doctrine.

Everyone has their own limits. Liberals have their own limits. Conservatives have their own limits. To say that conservatism is unique in holding beliefs in limits as to what is acceptable and what isn't is not accurate. In sociology, these "social norms" apply to everyone. We all do it. I am not alone, and their are plenty of "liberals" who will agree with me.

All I know about you is what you tell me. You are an educator of children of an unknown age, and you hold social conservative views on which I may not agree.

True.

I never said you were, but you did plenty of judging of Miley Cyrus's behavior and attire. So, can I include being judgmental in those negative stereotypes?

You're absolutely right. I did judge her ACTIONS. I did not judge Miley as a person. Never called her a slut, whore, or anything else everyone else is calling her. I do believe her actions were wrong, but I don't think she is the spawn of satan. And don't you say that being judgmental is a stereotype of conservatives. Everyone one on earth is judgmental. We ALL judge everyone and everything. Being judgmental is how we select our friends, how we form opinions, how we form relationships...you judge just as much as I do. It's part of living. My judgments against Miley's actions are not sanctimonious or of the holier-than-thou attitude. They are legitimate concerns.

I have an issue with people who use children as their last line of argument. Somehow, it's always about children. And, why do I have a problem when people start talking about "morals"? It is because morals are highly subjective. Who's morals should prevail? Mine? Yours? I do respect your morals. Your criticisms are valid, but I don't have to agree with them.

I agree, morals are subjective. They are hard to define. But that's not what you said. You immediately jumped the gun and assumed I was probably trying to convert you, or use religion as my only argument [[in fact I didn't use it at all).

What I cannot agree with is your statement about children. I find it absolutely ridiculous to think that when people argue FOR children, it's some sort of lazy attempt to sway the argument in their favor. I am passionate about children and they are my number one concern when it comes to issues we are facing in America today. So much of what gets passed in legislature affects the future in the long run, which affects our children, and it's incredibly selfish to just think that our children are just going to be "fine." Of course it's about the children! As Whitney Houston correctly sang, our children are our future. We can't, or we shouldn't, make decisions without considering how they will affect future generations. While I respect your right to think whatever you want about the Miley situation, and unless I'm misunderstanding you, I find your last statement about children to be rather repugnant.

OK. But, I have had a LOT of very negative interaction with people who consider themselves conservatives, both socially and politically. It does color my opinion of them, and your response to the whole Miley thing rubs me the wrong way, just as i'm sure my opinions bother you.

I understand that it's hard to get around a negative image that's been established by a certain number of people, but if you can't keep an open mind and at least make an attempt to get to know the person before forming an opinion, what good can be accomplished?

This may shock you, but I actually do have a very open mind [[there's some liberalism for you). I have certain values and ideas that I'm dead-set in favor of or against. For the most part, there is something that everyone gets passionate about. This happens to be one of mine.

[soulster]

Everyone has their own limits. Liberals have their own limits. Conservatives have their own limits. To say that conservatism is unique in holding beliefs in limits as to what is acceptable and what isn't is not accurate.

I personally know conservatives who are so extreme in their views that they would make radical Islamists look like hedonists. I don't know any liberals who are so extreme.

In sociology, these "social norms" apply to everyone. We all do it. I am not alone, and their are plenty of "liberals" who will agree with me.

So, what are those social "norms"?

You're absolutely right. I did judge her ACTIONS. I did not judge Miley as a person. Never called her a slut, whore, or anything else everyone else is calling her. I do believe her actions were wrong, but I don't think she is the spawn of satan. And don't you say that being judgmental is a stereotype of conservatives. Everyone one on earth is judgmental. We ALL judge everyone and everything. Being judgmental is how we select our friends, how we form opinions, how we form relationships...you judge just as much as I do. It's part of living. My judgments against Miley's actions are not sanctimonious or of the holier-than-thou attitude. They are legitimate concerns.

I do not judge individuals. If I meet someone I would rather not be associated with, I don't judge them or their behavior, I just say that they are not for me and move on. Sorry if that's too liberal for you. I have been around so many types of people in the world that I just don't care what people do with their lives, as long as it does not affect me directly. I may not want to be associated with what they do, or their lives, but I do not judge them for it. As for conservatives, I know that I will eventually be disappointed and annoyed with them. So, it's better for both to distance myself from them.

I agree, morals are subjective. They are hard to define. But that's not what you said. You immediately jumped the gun and assumed I was probably trying to convert you, or use religion as my only argument [[in fact I didn't use it at all).

I never said or thought you were trying to covert me. My firm belief, based on a lifetime of experiences, is that usually people who mention morals do so based on some sort of religious dogma.

What I cannot agree with is your statement about children. I find it absolutely ridiculous to think that when people argue FOR children, it's some sort of lazy attempt to sway the argument in their favor.

I did not say that. And, I could have said what I did in a harsh way, but decided it would be too provocative. What I did mean is that, in my experience, people use the defense of children when they have nothing else left to use in an argument, as hardly no one would ever go against the interest of a child.

I am passionate about children and they are my number one concern when it comes to issues we are facing in America today.

I love children too, and care about the world they live in, to a point, but not when that excludes the interest of adults. I know some extremists, almost always religious, who want everything in the world to accommodate small children. How does that accommodate the interests of adults, even of those without children around? What a horrible world it would be! I envision a world with everything censored, everything dumbed-down, no intellectual stimulation, and no sexual outlet. Disney and Smurfs everywhere!

So much of what gets passed in legislature affects the future in the long run, which affects our children, and it's incredibly selfish to just think that our children are just going to be "fine." Of course it's about the children! As Whitney Houston correctly sang, our children are our future. We can't, or we shouldn't, make decisions without considering how they will affect future generations.

I totally disagree. What about the rights and freedoms of adults? You can't wrap every little thing around children, unless there's an unhealthy obsession with them. Let's do this: divide the country! One half with children, one without. If you have a kid, you have to move to kiddie-land. When they turn 18, you all move back to adult land. Sound silly? It may be the only option if you want to make everything child-safe.

While I respect your right to think whatever you want about the Miley situation, and unless I'm misunderstanding you, I find your last statement about children to be rather repugnant.

What statement would that be?

I understand that it's hard to get around a negative image that's been established by a certain number of people, but if you can't keep an open mind and at least make an attempt to get to know the person before forming an opinion, what good can be accomplished?

Most people make no attempt to know me, so why bother?

This may shock you, but I actually do have a very open mind [[there's some liberalism for you). I have certain values and ideas that I'm dead-set in favor of or against. For the most part, there is something that everyone gets passionate about. This happens to be one of mine.

I have an open mind and listen until I hear BS. I'm not saying YOU do, but in general. Thing is, conservatives are usually so predictable in their rhetoric.

I'm passionate about music, audio quality of music, and fairness.

[antceleb12]

I personally know conservatives who are so extreme in their views that they would make radical Islamists look like hedonists. I don't know any liberals who are so extreme.

I do. I know plenty of liberals that are. And I know plenty of conservatives that aren't.

So, what are those social "norms"?

Social norms are what regulate our society. There are three kinds. Folkways - which are unspoken rules of conduct [[i.e. keeping personal space between strangers, holding the door open for people, not hitting women, etc.). Mores - more formal laws which usually comes with a formal sanction [[i.e. speeding/speeding tickets, robbery/jail time, etc.). Finally, there are taboos - rules that come with both a formal and a moral consequence [[i.e. rape, murder, incest, etc.). There are limits to each specific norm, and breaking these norms involves some sort of reaction from observers.

I do not judge individuals. If I meet someone I would rather not be associated with, I don't judge them or their behavior, I just say that they are not for me and move on. Sorry if that's too liberal for you. I have been around so many types of people in the world that I just don't care what people do with their lives, as long as it does not affect me directly. I may not want to be associated with what they do, or their lives, but I do not judge them for it. As for conservatives, I know that I will eventually be disappointed and annoyed with them. So, it's better for both to distance myself from them.

That's good you don't judge individuals. Neither do I.
No, that's not "too liberal" for me. Like I said, I am not a Conservative. Don't pigeon-hole me based on what little you know of me.
If you go into it thinking you're going to be disappointed, then you'll be disappointed. If you go in with an open mind, you never know...

I never said or thought you were trying to covert me. My firm belief, based on a lifetime of experiences, is that usually people who mention morals do so based on some sort of religious dogma.

Not everyone does.

I did not say that. And, I could have said what I did in a harsh way, but decided it would be too provocative. What I did mean is that, in my experience, people use the defense of children when they have nothing else left to use in an argument, as hardly no one would ever go against the interest of a child.

I've never encountered that, which is why I viewed your statement about children as offensive.

I love children too, and care about the world they live in, to a point, but not when that excludes the interest of adults. I know some extremists, almost always religious, who want everything in the world to accommodate small children. How does that accommodate the interests of adults, even of those without children around? What a horrible world it would be! I envision a world with everything censored, everything dumbed-down, no intellectual stimulation, and no sexual outlet. Disney and Smurfs everywhere!

I totally disagree. What about the rights and freedoms of adults? You can't wrap every little thing around children, unless there's an unhealthy obsession with them. Let's do this: divide the country! One half with children, one without. If you have a kid, you have to move to kiddie-land. When they turn 18, you all move back to adult land. Sound silly? It may be the only option if you want to make everything child-safe.

I never said our decisions should exclude adults. I said we shouldn't make important, long-term decisions without thinking about how it impacts future generations. Of course we should consider how it impacts us now, but we are not the only ones we should consider. That is my point.

What statement would that be?

See above.

Most people make no attempt to know me, so why bother?

Because not all people are like that, and I believe that people deserve the benefit of the doubt.

I have an open mind and listen until I hear BS. I'm not saying YOU do, but in general. Thing is, conservatives are usually so predictable in their rhetoric.

And Conservatives could say the same thing about Liberals - speaking as an impartial party...

[smark21]

Here's Miley and The Roots performing We Can't Stop the other night on Jimmy Fallon:

[antceleb12]

Here's Miley and The Roots performing We Can't Stop the other night on Jimmy Fallon:

Is there something you're trying to show me?

[jillfoster]

I understand the sentiment that Miley ain't the first to show somethin on TV... I suppose the WAY she does it just seems gratuitous, when Grace Jones shows her boobs on TV, it's art.

[smark21]

Is there something you're trying to show me?

Just trying to get the thread back on topic. It's not all about you dearie.

[smark21]

Suzanne Somers is now trying to get some publicity using Miley: http://www.usmagazine.com/celebrity-news/news/suzanne-somers-66-reveals-she-has-sex-twice-a-day-with-husband-alan-hamel-77-2013910

[antceleb12]

Just trying to get the thread back on topic. It's not all about you dearie.

Chill. I never said it was, "dearie." I was just wondering if you were trying to point something out...

[soulster]

http://www.cnn.com/2013/10/12/showbi...html?hpt=en_c1

I just got through watching a documentary on Miley Cyrus on CNN a while ago. Again, it reinforces that she is calling all the shots, and has been for a few years now. She is trying hard to get away from Hannah Montana, and really is a wild child. but, her head is on straight.

[Roberta75]

http://www.cnn.com/2013/10/12/showbi...html?hpt=en_c1

I just got through watching a documentary on Miley Cyrus on CNN a while ago. Again, it reinforces that she is calling all the shots, and has been for a few years now. She is trying hard to get away from Hannah Montana, and really is a wild child. but, her head is on straight.

I think we need to remember Miley never had a real childhood so now she free of Disney and Hannah Montana shes expressing herself and having the fun she never had as a child.

Roberta

[smark21]

I think Miley has found a middle ground between Katy Perry and Lady Gaga. Perry relies on a lot of cartoonish imagery in her videos and stage presentation and likes to show off her body, especially her breasts, but ultimately she’s very wholesome. Miley is not as stacked as Perry, but also has a cartoonish quality in her presentation [[especially having her dancers dressed as mushrooms, rainbows, flowers, and teddy bears) but has more edge than Perry. Gaga has a certain edge but she’s very pretentious and striving to be artistic. Miley is not trying to be an artist, just a button pushing show girl. So she’s more fun than Gaga.

[soulster]

Except that Gaga has more talent then both of them put together, but doesn't use it much. She's too busy trying to show off and make social statements, and nowadays, it's falling on deaf ears, except for her core audience.

Katy Perry once said her albums reflect what she feels at whatever point she's in in her life. When she did her first album, she was as a christian. Her second album was her "turning 18" album, for lack of a better term. Her third album was as a young woman in her early 20s experiencing life. If her next album follows this logic, it should be about the aftermath of a failed marriage.

Lady Gaga? I have no idea...

I suspect that Miley's next album after this should be more mature...or maybe not. We'll see in a couple of years.

[soulster]

http://entertainment.time.com/2013/1...nse/?hpt=hp_t3

[splanky]

I don't have a link right now but from what I understand Lady Gaga is scheduled to do an
album of duets with Tony Bennet. Tony has a penchant of dueting with a variety of[[ sometimes ostracised) singers as he's worked with Diana Krall, k.d. lang, Gaga before
and even thelate Amy Whinehouse. Quite well I might add...

[timmyfunk]

Except that Gaga has more talent then both of them put together, but doesn't use it much. She's too busy trying to show off and make social statements, and nowadays, it's falling on deaf ears, except for her core audience.

Katy Perry once said her albums reflect what she feels at whatever point she's in in her life. When she did her first album, she was as a christian. Her second album was her "turning 18" album, for lack of a better term. Her third album was as a young woman in her early 20s experiencing life. If her next album follows this logic, it should be about the aftermath of a failed marriage.

Lady Gaga? I have no idea...

I suspect that Miley's next album after this should be more mature...or maybe not. We'll see in a couple of years.

That is highly debatable. Madonna and most of the glorified mall rats that have came before her are usually defined by thoroughly contrived stage shows, overly spectacular [[not meant in a good way) musical productions, and voices that are seriously lacking in any kind of depth or range.

[soulster]

I think you are allowing your personal biases interfere with objectivity.

[timmyfunk]

I think you are allowing your personal biases interfere with objectivity.

And maybe you are letting your personal biases interfere with basic common sense.

[soulster]

Just because you dislike something does not make your subjective opinion about music fact.

[smark21]

Well Miley's album debut #1 in the US and a number of other countries. However on the singles charts her song Wrecking Ball is being kept from number 1 by 16 year old New Zealand singer Lorde, who seems to be an antidote to Miley. Her hit is called "Royals".

[Jerry Oz]

Well Miley's album debut #1 in the US and a number of other countries. However on the singles charts her song Wrecking Ball is being kept from number 1 by 16 year old New Zealand singer Lorde, who seems to be an antidote to Miley. Her hit is called "Royals".

I actually love everything about this song. I hope that there is more to come from her. And in keeping with the theme of the thread, let's hope she decides that her voice is sufficient enough to sell records and not her skin.

[soulster]

Lorde has not been without her own controversy. She has been wrongly accused of being a racist because of her last hit about hip-hop artists embracing "bling".

[Jerry Oz]

That sounds like the song that's posted above... If so, that's poor reason to knock her IMO.

[timmyfunk]

Just because you dislike something does not make your subjective opinion about music fact.

And you can't prove otherwise. There's nothing being presented on this thread but opinions.

[soulster]

And you can't prove otherwise. There's nothing being presented on this thread but opinions.

Just as long as YOU remember that!

[timmyfunk]

Just as long as YOU remember that!

That's cool with me. As long as we ALL know that.