He did and Levi didn't want it. And he also wanted Levi to be a soloist, he refused too. He was like "I've been in this group for 12, 13 years, these are my homeboys, nah man."
Of ALL the Motown groups, the Four Tops remained loyal to each other.
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When did Martha have her breakdown? 1968, right?
I think the group known as Martha and the Vandellas was OVER by then [[and this was after the group added Martha's last name to the full moniker). While they continued to perform when Martha came back from her breakdown, they were just a group in name only. MOST of MR&TV's post-breakdown recordings featured just Martha and probably the Andantes or Syreeta Wright or Ashford & Simpson or whoever until 1972 when the contract finally ran out.
In fact, some of the releases were OLDER recordings that Martha sung by herself [[I Gotta Let You Go being one of them; No One There, the LAST release from MR&TV's sounded way older too).
But the GROUP was over by 1968. IMHO. Like the Marvelettes were technically over that same year and by that point, only Wanda was singing on the tracks [[post-1968 after Anne Bogan).
Ask why the Marvelettes didn't have any of its singers' name in front of the group, because each one of them could sing lead on a track [[though mainly it was Gladys and Wanda). Plus Wanda was too beset by drug abuse and alcoholism to focus on her career [[much like Martha was after 1966).
I get that, but lets be real: had Eddie and Paul and David gotten together and said they wanted Otis gone, other than taking it to the street, what recourse did Otis have? Sure he was the de-facto leader, but what did that really mean exactly? The Tempts were comprised of two factions, Eddie and Paul vs Otis and Melvin. Where the name Temptations are concerned, all of them were together for the start of this thing, except for David who came later. How is it that Otis held more weight than Eddie and Paul? Did Berry really care that much about what Otis [[or Melvin) thought? I don't think so. I think Otis would've found himself out on his ass. I think the only reasons David didn't get what he wanted [[his name out front) is for two reasons:
1) Gordy and company viewed Eddie as a lead singer who would not/ could not be relegated to background singer position.
2) David had a self destructive personality. Had David had a "succeed at all costs" mindset like Diana Ross, and if Eddie wasn't respected for his lead singing capabilities, I think Gordy would have been more than happy to turn the Tempts into the David Ruffin show.
The Marvelettes didn't go that way because the two lead singer situation was prior to 1967. By the time Gordy started changing everybody's names, Gladys was gone. As you point out, Wanda had drug and alcohol problems, but also by the time of 1967-68, the Marvelettes had slipped so far down the Motown totem pole that some folks probably forgot they were there at all, thus Motown really didn't give a shit about singling anyone out. Names ending in "ettes" seems so dated at that point, that I have to wonder if a shot of life could've been given to the group by renaming it something else at this point? New name, new start, especially for Wanda?
Mary and Berry wanted Flo out as well. Flo found that out the hard way at the meeting. As any employer would say, there’s just so much you can take from an employee. Their non-comfority not only causes harm to the group, but undermines the authority of the entire organization. No one hated Flo. No one WANTED her gone. They wanted the behavior to go, and the only way was to lose the behavior. Mary told me Flo was hostile to Berry and things were hot and cold with Diana. If it’s true that Flo was taking prescription diet pills, they can definitely change and exaggerate moods. It may have contributed to Flo’s inability to cope in an acceptable manner. After the meeting, Flo wasn’t speaking to Diana or Mary or Berry and that certainly wasn’t going to go on too long.
Not or being privy to the whole inside story, it’s easy to say what ‘should have been done.’ Personally, I’d have given Flo a few months off, used Marlene Barrow or rented Cindy to see if maybe Flo could get it together. Removing a popular group member, I’m sure, was not Taken lightly. But Gordy seems to me like quite a little Hitler, drunk with power, and once his ego was challenged, there could be only one result. Plus, Diana looks to me like she was just hanging by a thread emotionally as well. The tension had to be relieved as the group might stand losing Flo, but not Diana.
I agree with just about all of that. As I said in another thread some months ago, if any one of us in Soulful Detroit were to ever walk into our jobs participating in Flo's shenanigans, we'd be out on our asses. And most of us would agree that it would be unacceptable behavior. Why does Flo get a pass? I'm the biggest Flo fan there is [[as far as I'm concerned) and in every way that matters I give her the full credit she deserves. But she aint Jesus. She aint perfect. She was a flawed human being, as were everyone else in this cast of characters. Florence made her own bed and then had to lie in it. The most unfortunate thing is that she died so young and after a years long period of bad decisions and bad luck, so we never get to see her emerge from the consequences of her youthful antics like most of the rest of us got the chance to do.
But calling Flo on her shit doesn't mean that Gordy, Ross and Wilson's shoes were clean either. It's just that Gordy held all the power, Ross had some power, and Flo and Mary had none. Mary kept her job because she towed the line and sided with the powerful against the weak.
Jesus, it's like any other Motown story involving another Motown legend, the Supremes got to be interjected into it!!!
God forbid if I make a Marvin Gaye topic, discussing his years of being bipolar, and suddenly what happened backstage at a Supremes concert in nineteen sixty-John Brown-six is brought up lol
For my part, I was just following the posts and responding to what has already been written. I'll leave the topic of the Supremes out of any future posts in this thread and keep the focus on the Vandellas. But I also have to agree with you; someone always brings them up and half the time I'm left wondering what was the point? In some cases I think it's someone hoping to derail the conversation. Ya know, that weird psychotic thing that goes on around here sometimes.
^ Right. The conversation was about MARTHA AND THE VANDELLAS.
I mean, I wonder is it hard for some folks to keep the Supremes' name out of their mouths and try to be like "#TeamDiana" or "#TeamMary". That's some f*ck sh*t lol
There are no Vandella solos.... Martha was the s^&*[[ period !!!!
also didn't Tony Turner say he slept with Berry Gordy ?....nobody recorded him.
peace
Is this Vandella Lois? https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yUM3mk2zY_c
That's quite unique though. Like every other group in Motown AT LEAST, the other member[[s) had a lead or shared lead, either on a single or on an album track.
Yet in NEITHER of the NINE [[I think?) studio albums [[not counting the "Live" album that had Betty Kelly, I think, doing Respect), Annette, Roz, Betty, Lois and/or Sandra never had a lead vocal and in "I Can't Dance [[To That Music You're Playing)", they brought in Syreeta Wright to sing the chorus!
Also, DIDN'T Martha sue Motown first for royalties before the other Vandellas [[Annette, Betty and Roz; save for Lois who worked with Martha mainly) did? I could've sworn she had sued them after the Motown 25 special [[where she was only given a minute long performance alongside Mary Wells?).
There are some who feel that Solos were somehow owed, deserved, fair or given out like special treats. This is a business and Solos were only invested in if those involved expected a profit from it. There are many fine bg voices that would never make a dime as Solos - like Cindy for example. I believe The Vandellas that I’ve heard fit in that category. Mary, as a pop singer does as well. You gotta have a lot to make a career, but a voice people enjoy is one of them. Sandra’s voice? No, thanks. Mary and Flo had nice voices for a solo spot, but most of the bg voices I hear, don’t.
And I don’t think it matters with the inception of the group was, any group going to Motown was going to do what Motown told them where they were going to be there. Simple as that. They were free to leave if they wanted out.
I think Otis was the final say in the group because technically I believe Paul and Eddie joined his group. I may be wrong about that, but I don’t think so.
^ Since we're going OT lol, yeah Eddie and Paul JOINED Otis and Melvin's group [[though credit to the naming of the Temptations belong to Otis and Paul).
Yes I believe Martha sued Motown first. Being unfamiliar with the details, I can only speculate that Martha sued on her own behalf, the Vandellas be damned. Lol Which I guess is why they had to sue on their own a few years later. [[I so badly want to insert a reference to another Motown girl group here, but Midnight I don't want you to get mad at me and kick me out the thread.:p)
Actually that's exactly how many leads were handled in the business. Some were owed, some were deserved, some were distributed fairly, and I'm going to assume that in the case of group members whose voices left something to be desired to my ears, leads were apparently handed out as special treats.
It seems like most of the Motown groups were comprised of people who were more than capable of sharing lead vocals, including that group Midnight doesn't want me to mention. [[HA!) And to a lot of people if you can sing lead, you should sing lead, and it seems like Motown had a similar opinion, even when there was a designated sole lead singer.
When it comes to who should and shouldn't sing lead, it really is very much an opinion based issue. Maniac may think none of the Vandellas fit the criteria for good soloists, but someone standing next to him may have the opposite opinion. IMO there have been people throughout the history of recorded music who vocally suck but somehow were able to carve out a career. That's why discussing group lead singers is a worthy topic.
I think in the Vandellas case, none of them recording a studio lead probably had nothing to do with anyone at Motown not feeling any of them were capable of handling such a task, but had everything to do with the way the act was structured: Martha Reeves and her background singers the Vandellas. Martha may join the girls to sing backup in the studio for another act, but Martha wasn't going to sing background to one of her own background singers.
I agree that the Vandellas were there to provide vocal backup for Martha. she herself has stated that they were not a "group" like the Supremes or Temptations, with a shared artistic vision of what they wanted to pursue and convey. it's not to say that the Vandellas weren't talented or necessary. It's like in an orchestra - 99% of the time the primary melody is being played by something like the 1st Violins or the flutes or something. rarely is it the violas or the contrabassoon. Sure there are passage, or in some cases songs, where they carry it. But they provide the inner tones and melodies. Essential to the overall
So this is very similar to Mary Wilson's comment about how all three of the Supremes were part of the whole [[yes I'm mentioning the Sups, but only because mary has been quoted in many interviews discussing this). But they were also a group and [[supposedly) partnering together on style, concepts to record, direction, etc. The Vandellas mostly just followed Martha's direction. Frankly from what I've heard, that's how things were with the DRATS and also once Scherrie joined the Sups. mary pretty much ran the group as she wanted in the later 70s
one thing that's curious is how Motown approached the FEMALE backing vocals as being far more expendable than the male. or maybe I'm just not as familiar with the men's recordings. but no one really seemed to care if the backgrounds on Sup, Van or Marvelettes was by group members or not. so long as it was female voices. But did Smokey ever record the Miracles without the three guys? did the Temps do any without their members? perhaps some groups went after a bigger sound and had additional voices on top of theirs. But I find it interesting that Smokey never replaced Pete, Bobby or Roger but never thought twice about replacing Mary and Cindy or Kathryn and Ann/Gladys.
AFAIK, the Miracles never had any other singer besides themselves in all of their songs with one obvious exception [[Mickey's Monkey, which included MR&TV's in it) and the Temptations only used the Andantes once IIRC [[It's Growing). And no one really knew the Four Tops prior to their Motown arrival so no one pitched a fit over the Andantes being used in their music.
I read somewhere the way MR&TV's came together is after they reformed to sing with Marvin, Berry or Martha felt that Martha had the potential to be the next female star of Motown [[while Mary Wells was still in Motown; and after Martha replaced her on I Have to Let Him Go, Berry decided to sign her) and she insisted her friends Annette, Roz and Gloria join her. I'm guessing the way the contract was set up [[with Martha's name in front), Gloria felt some type of way since she had done leads when they were The Vels and decided to leave the music industry for good while Annette and Roz went along with it.
So maybe that's why they seem unique in Motown groups in that they were only formed to help boost Martha and Martha only.
@sup_fan, it's an interesting question. But I think it's partially answered by the fact that most pop records of the time have female backing vocals vs. male. And even the male groups like 4 Tops and the Tempts might still have a female backup group along with their own members. So I think in this, as well as in many other endeavors, the females were just viewed as more "expendable" or at least "interchangeable."
In an effort to bring the thread back on topic, Betty and Roz do have brief solos on “Spellbound” from the L&F anthology of the same name [[which after years of searching was finally able to secure at a decent price)! IMO, their vocals weren’t anything to write home about.
I guess Berry and Co., figured it was less complicated to keep Martha out in front, rather than go through the hassle of putting Betty, Roz, and Annette through excessive vocal training. Not to mention the search for suitable material.
It's interesting when you think about it, that Martha had her name in front of a group longer than anyone else at Motown that I can think of! I mean, it went from "Martha" to "Martha Reeves" but still, it was longer than Smokey or Diane, by several years, I daresay.
^ Martha & the Vandellas signed with Motown under that name in 1962.
The Miracles changed their name to Smokey & the Miracles in 1965 [[but the moniker wasn't official until 1966 on singles; they started calling them that on albums starting with Going to a Go-Go).
The most popular group in this forum [[lol) changed their name in 1967.
So yeah, there you have it.
Also, what's never brought up is in this forum is Martha was also the first front person of a group to sing songs WITHOUT their band mates.
Like none of the Vandellas were on My Baby Loves Me, it was just Martha, the Four Tops and the Andantes, from 1966.
Even with Spellbound, it was much more on in keeping with the background melody than being up front. Also Martha has one of the greatest voices in music history, I think that was another reason why the other girls didn't really "get their shine" so to speak. But maybe they were just comfortable just BEING in the background and never had issues or fights about singing leads on some songs because there was some SORT of understanding?
But I guess we'll never know.
@midnightman, so many intriguing questions. You know with all the folks on this forum who seem to know some of our Motown family, I wish we could do some interviews with some of these people. I know in the past several years, Darlene Love and other "backup" singers have received more credit, thanks to the recent film and other things. But I wish someone on SDF who has access to Rosalind, Betty, or others would do an interview and post it. I'd do it in a heartbeat if I knew any of them! Would be so interesting to ask for how they prepared, how much time they toured vs. recorded, how Martha [[or Diane!) had so much time to record so many tracks, even if the backing vocals were prerecorded. So many things I'd love to know.
I’ve chatted by email with Betty and Roz. You could probably reach them on Facebook. They seem quite friendly and open.
That would be interesting for the original Vandellas to discuss this more. They could use YouTube as a platform to discuss things. It's been 50 plus years. It would be great for them to reveal what was going on behind the scenes. I know Betty probably can't do it but I hope Annette and Roz does soon. I know they did one interview with Thomas Meros [[I think that's his name) but I hope they talk more about what went on behind the scenes, I'm real interested about that.
I know Martha had talked about issues with Betty in her book [[don't recall her saying she had issues with Annette and Roz but Roz WAS told to leave in '69 so who knows what was up with THAT!).
actually, Diana was the first front person of a group to sing songs without her band mates. There are songs on CW&P with and without them, Flo &Mary are not on the Stop! Single [[per George and Andy) and the entire Christmas album has no Mary or Flo - in ‘65 so that’s at least a year earlier. To me, it’s of little consequence as I believe producers use the voices - lead, bg whatever - that they think will make the most profit for them and I respect their decisions even if I don’t always agree. I love The Andantes, but would have preferred Mary and Flo on most of Merry Christmas. I like their sound better, but sometimes it needs a boost for effect. They are more youthful and unique sounding. The Vandellas, on the other hand, have a plain, rather mundane sound to me; give me a The A’s anytime over them.
Actually F and M are on all of CwP it’s just that the andantes were added in addition. But there are no tracks without m and f. And I believe m and f are still on stop but the andantes were added and r higher in the mix and therefore more prominent.
The first released Diana only track are the Christmas ones. Then on Symphony is Yesterday [[solo) and any girl in love [[w andantes). Then on a go go Boots is solo, YCHL is Mary and Marlene. Put yourself in my place is andantes and I think as is Come and get these memories
On sing hdh andantes are added to Love Is Here and Going Down. I think it’s only andantes on there’s no stopping
George and Andy said very clearly there were O N L Y Andantes on the Stop 45 mix. Louvain said she sang it with them, but she wasn’t aware there was a take without her. Someone here stated that there are a lot of C W tracks with The A’s - I believe it was Andy. Some are unrealeased - so far. Bottom line, Ross was the first front woman only.
FSR, I just don't believe Louvain...
But I guess it builds on that myth...
I thought we agreed not to discuss that group in this thread. [[mad sideeyes LOL)
NOTE: I'm only joking [[halfway). :)
Louvaine also said that Flo is on Stop! Not sure about Mary. If there's any group out of all the girl groups that used the Andantes to the extreme it was the marvelettes. I'd say they're on about 75% of their recordings.
As I recall George indicated Andantes MAY be on Stop in the name of Love WITH Mary and Flo.
This is steering off topic again lol
If gifs were allowed, I'd bring a gif of someone looking sideways at some posters... lol
My warning fell on deaf ears. WHY! LOL