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very interesting discussion of DR's return debut on motown. but what about her 1970 debut?
i think we all agree the A&S content was stupendous. but let's set that aside? what are people's thoughts on the BH material? of course it's no Mountain. but how do you think it would have done?
I really like Diana's versions of TIME AND LOVE and STONEY END. I think they might have done well since they represented a different sound for her. But in the end, I guess Berry figured experimentation was not the way to go at such a pivotal point in her career.
Wasn’t Diana’s LOVE’S LINES, ANGLES AND RHYMES a Howe production as well? It’s magnificent, as is the complex THE INTERIM.
Aside from Diana's vocals the BH produced songs do not have the Motown sound to them. The songs are fine, but nothing revolutionary, just straight up pop.
hadn't Bones been active with the 5th Dimension? that group had had a lot of success with Aquarius, Wedding Bells Blues and others. I think Stoney End would have been a strong first single. Agree that it's not revolutionary but would have been a solid pop hit. I don't think Reach Out and Touch was revolutionary either, in terms of the studio song. What WAS revolutionary was Diana's usage of it in her live shows. the image of her walking out into the audience, personally interacting with her guests and getting them to sing along, having the entire auditorium standing up holding hands and swaying was totally new and different.
there are four tracks on the expanded Diana Ross 1970. the run time on them was typically over 4 mins so they're slightly longer than many of the A&S songs. we could assume that Gordy would have wanted These Things on the lp too. So there are 5 songs which could have been Side 1.
I think i read that they prepared a few more tracks but they didn't receive vocals. Raindrops Keep Falling On My Head was supposedly one
Yes Bones was the 5th's producer After Jimmy Webb's Magic Garden and he lasted until 1974 when things were starting to fall apart for the group. Then he went on to produce Tom Waits' killer Heart of Saturday Night album. Bones often disagreed strongly about what material the group should do, or what direction to go in. Living Together Growing Together sealed their fate AND Bones' relationship with the 5th Dimension
Some of Deke Richards' productions like WISH I KNEW might have fit well with those of Howe.Quote:
Originally Posted by sup_fan
i agree. the EIE album and the Bones material are much more in line than the A&S and EIE. If we had had a full Bones album for Diana, the EIE set would have been a natural follow up.Quote:
Originally Posted by reese
By 1970, we had already learned that Diana's mother had told her to be patient rather than in a rush about love, that her father left before marrying her mother and that her mother had no understanding of fashion and died while making homemade jam, so this biographical tune, with the lyrics "I was born from love, and my poor mother worked the mine..." might have been confusing. Did Diana have several mothers? Was Diana or her mother suffering from schizophrenia? I think at some point Ernestine must have said, "Girl, I know that everything is everything, but if you sing one more song about me, I am going to sue your butt for defamation of character." To which Diana responded, "Help, help me mother dear, 'cause I can't help myself..." And she went on to point out that she hadn't mentioned Ernestine by name when she recorded "I wanna mother you, smother you..." so no one knew that Ernestine's idea of being a good mother meant you had to smother those you birthed. So Ernestine relented and said, "Well, thanks for not bringing that up, at least. It's good knowing you didn't out me, like Joan Crawford's daughter let the world know about her mom." Diana smiled, and the two hugged. But Ernestine did not see her daughter's face. Nor could she read her daughter's mind. Still, as it's been documented, at that moment Diana was thinking "...Mama may have, but God bless the child that's got her own..." and she vowed that one day she would leave Motown, produce her own records and hit the heights again and again. That reminded her that she had always loved that Ashford/Simpson song Ain't No Mountain High Enough, and she said to herself, maybe I can put that on my debut album, along with Keep An Eye, to remind me that I demand an eye for an eye...
I like the Bones Howe sessions. Diana's version of Time and Love is my favorite version of the song. "The Interim" is a haunting cut.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbbbWnVmFZ8
I think all all the Bones Howe songs should have featured on the “Everything Is Everything” album. Diana is in great vocal form in those songs, and they are certainly stronger then many of the tracks that did make the cut.
All the Bones Howe material is excellent and Diana interprets splendidly, but the cuts are a tad ... polite? ... to have been radio hits. That said, The Interim is stupendous.
i have really 0 knowledge of Bones Howe and what else he was doing at this time.
anyone here familiar with his work in 69 and 70? what were some of his other productions that might have been excellent additions, had he produced the entire lp?
In 1969 and 70, The 5th Dimension was Bones Howe's major project. He produced their Age of Aquarius album and then their Portrait album. Big hits from those albums include "Aquarius/Let the Sun Shine in", "Wedding Bell Blues", "Working on a Groovy Thing", "One Less Bell to Answer", and "Blowing Away". He also produced a Laura Nyro album around that time.Quote:
Originally Posted by sup_fan
The musical tracks/arrangements Howe used for "Time and Love" for Diana Ross, as well as "Love's Lines Angles and Rhymes" would be pretty much recycled for The 5th Dimension. The 5th's version of Time and Love is not as strong as Diana's in terms of vocals, though Marilyn McCoo knocks it out of the park with her lead on "Love's Lines Angles and Rhymes" which was a hit for the 5th Dimension.
I wonder if ONe Less Bell to Answer was ever considered for Diana Ross? Although Marilyn McCoo's vocal set the standard for that song, I think Diana Ross would have done a strong job on it as well.
I enjoy the Bones cuts. I played "Stoney End" a lot when the bonus tracks version was released. I don't play it much anymore for some reason. I will say as good as those tracks were, and all four cuts are excellent IMO, I'm soooooo glad the decision was made to go with Ashford and Simpson. I don't think the public wanted to hear the Bones Howe Diana Ross and fear she may have bombed her debut had that been the direction.
I agree with Ollie that the Bones songs would have fit in on the EIE album. I would've replaced "Come Together", "Long and Winding Road" and probably "Everything Is Everything", with "Stoney End", "The Interim" and "Love, Lines, Angles and Rhymes". Of course if I replace the title cut, the album needs a new title. My Place perhaps?
I am not a 5D fan at all, but OMG I love "One Less Bell". Marilyn sang the shit out of that. I love Dionne Warwick's version as well. Would've loved to hear Diana sing it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spreadinglove21
great suggestions
so here's a potential debut album for DR with Bones product
Time and Love
The Interim
Love Lines
stoney end
time and love
these things
raindrops keep falling
one less bell to answer
so we probably need 2 or so more songs. what about Never My Love - Bones produced this for Association
While I like the BH songs, they don't knock me over [[well, maybe The Interim). They were fine but not what I really wanted to hear from Diana Ross on her first solo outing. I think A&S expanded on her sound and added some heft to it which made it perfect to my mind. I think that Everything Is Everything was more of a pop album and the BH songs would have fit better on there.
I really wish some famous music journalist [[or Tracey Ellis and Evan) would sit down and interview DR about the making of her first solo record and have her give her thoughts about each song, including the Bones Howe tracks and also listen back to her first solo concert. I know she's not big on looking back and reminiscing about her recordings, but from a fan perspective it would mean a lot.
Diana’s debut album doesn’t get the credit it deserves.
Ashford & Simpson all the way.Quote:
Originally Posted by RanRan79
Great minds think. Regarding “EIE”, those are exactly the tracks I would have replaced with the Howe songs. “Time And Love” is going just a little to pop.
Perhaps if the album had been titled Stony End, Diana might have scored a fat juicy hit with it. I think the Streisand version was in 71.
I like "Time And Love" and "Stoney End" a lot actually but agree that perhaps they were not the direction Diana should have been going in. :D
i liked the tracks and thought Dianas vocals were great but ,agree , it would have fit EIE better
Streisand's single 45 of "Stoney End" was released in Sept. 1970. I bought it at the time. Streisand's album "Stoney End" was released in Feb. 1971. "Time and Love" appeared on her "Stoney End" album. In the liner notes to the two-disc Fifth Dimension retrospective "Up, Up and Away: The Definitive Collection," the fact that Streisand had already recorded and released "Time and Love" was given as the reason that the later-released Fifth Dimension version didn't do well. When I heard Diana's version of "Time and Love" on the Expanded Edition of Diana's solo debut, it sounded to my ears as if The Fifth Dimension were singing along to the same track that Diana did -- both produced by Bones Howe.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ollie9
That Bones Howe Time and Love track got a lot of mileage. Diana Ross, 5th Dimension, Jean Terrell. IMO the track works best with Ross' vocal. Jean does a little too much vocally on it [[somewhat like what Streisand did on her version) while the 5th sounds like a filler cut--just another song to record. Ross' version is special.
Labelle also recorded 'Time And Love' on their first lp as 'Labelle'.
Many thanks for the info zani. It would be interesting to know how Streisand ended up recording “Stoney End”. Given its gospel feel, it might have made a good follow up single to “ANMHE” had it been included on the debut album. Perhaps in place of “These Things Will Keep Me Loving You”.Quote:
Originally Posted by zani57