The tracks on her diana [[1980) album sound "fresher and newer" than That's How You Start Over. Again, it's the best track on that album.
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the euro synthesizer pop/dance sounds that Ross 83 contain were not too dated by early 83. they weren't necessarily shockingly new or groundbreaking but they weren't passe, like a disco beat would have sounded.
but they never really do anything new or exciting with them either. this album doesn't take the concept of electronica and really do anything new with it. there were New Wave and other influences that could have been explored too.
there used to be rumours that there was quite a few tracks recorded for Ross83 that didnt make the album..
Ray Parker once mentioned that RCA didn't want to push this album. Maybe they cut all others songs, [[supposedly self produced by Ms Ross) to keep the integrity of this new sound. Maybe they were feared another Silk. If those songs have not surfaced yet, we can suspect they were not very good.
To me this Ross 83 direction was very interesting but maybe her fans were not interested in this kind of "yacht rock" sound for her. In the years to come, Sade will enjoy major success with soft jazz and rather detached performances.
Interesting. I wonder why a label would be reluctant to promote its own product. A clash of artistic vision perhaps?.
I’m always keen to learn new info on ross 83 as it happens to be a particular favourite of mine. For me the album was a welcome change of style. Diana’s relaxed vocals really suit the mood of the songs. It’s strange how an air of mystery seems to surround the project with additional recordings being kept under wraps.
I can’t imagine any of those songs being worse then “Girls”, but who knows.
i thought someone on here mentioned that not too long after Diana joined RCA, the leadership changed. A new president or something. and he did not want to focus on the artists that his predecessor brought in or had success with. Like Kenny and Diana
Glenwood posted this back in November.
I’ve told the general story of why Diana’s career at RCA petered out in the past. For some reason I couldn’t find it in the archives here so I’ll quote myself from a different website to give some general context to the goings on at the label circa 85-88...
‘“Catching back up on the thread and saw this so I'll fill in the details as I've learned them from Kenny's memoir and a few other industry books. When Bob Buziak replaced Bob Summers as head of RCA around 84-85, he found the label was in a major drought thanks to massive overpressing of titles, poor A&R, rampant overspending by the prior regime, and overpriced contracts. Diana Ross was signed for $20 million for example and would only score 1 platinum & 2 gold sellers out of 6 releases in 7 years. Kenny was guaranteed 4 million per album no matter how well it did. Even the album with Islands In The Stream only did a million. The follow up and the Dolly Xmas projects in 84 did as well and then he went off the cliff until his contract ended in 88. Rogers requested a sitdown with Buziak when his sales and pop chart action went south. There he was told that no matter what product he turned in the label had no real interest in marketing him anymore. Buziak added that if they did, it would make the folks that hired him wonder why they fired Summers. It was rumored this logic also applied to Ross. He was only going to only promote his signings. He also considered Barry Manilow's deal unrecoupable so he cut him from the label after a year and 2 releases to let him run back to Clive Davis. This may also help explain why Hall & Oates and the Pointer Sisters also suddenly stopped having consistent hits and a slew of new signings took off culminating in a mega Soundtrack we'll discuss in a bit that netted RCA $150 million.
here's some interesting info on RCA on wikipedia. So maybe the DR deal was a poor business decision for the company - they paid a LOT up front for her to sign and the albums really didn't set the business on fire. and DR wasn't the only financial issue. Plus she wasn't a "new hot pop artist." she was now approaching 40, which is ANCIENT in the US pop world
During the mid-1980s, RCA Records operated at a deficit, due in part to "overpriced deals" with pop stars including Kenny Rogers and Diana Ross. In 1986, the label bought back $25 million in unsold albums and lost $35 million during the fiscal year 1987. As a partial corrective, a decentralized style of management which allowed RCA Records to function as a free-standing entrepreneurial business was implemented for 1988. Buziak drastically cut the RCA roster from around 40 acts to 11, and began to rebuild it with a focus on developing artists, including artists acquired through marketing and distribution agreements with Beggars Banquet Records and Jive Records, whose roster included Schooly D, Kool Moe Dee, and DJ Jazzy Jeff & The Fresh Prince.
The album wasn't dated. I was referring to "That's How You Start Over" specifically, had it been released as a single. It had a similar sound to the other stuff I mentioned, but wasn't in the same league. Easily passed over like some of her other singles at the time.
I have no sympathy for RCA where Diana is concerned. Dumb business move to pay her that much money and not invest in maximizing the potential. The industry is large, and yet small at the same time. No one can convince me that TPTB at RCA weren't aware that at Motown, Diana's musical success was not of her own doing. She was not a self contained artist like a Stevie or Marvin. To enter into any agreement with her where she was the head of a project over the label itself was a dumb ass business decision. There were so many other ways in which Diana Ross could stretch her wings as an independent woman in control of her interests, but music should not have been one of them. Either she agree to the label controlling her music output or find another label. And if no takers, either she agree to letting a label control things or do something else with her life. With the exception of a couple major songs and two big albums, nothing she did at RCA justified what they paid her.
oh gotcha :) i agree with That's How isn't the best single but it is a fun and strong opener to the album.
here's a question - to my ear, That's How has some hints towards the Pointer Sister's Jump For My Love. Fun hot dance number. That's How is nowhere near as powerful as Jump but maybe if it had been amped up, strong vocals.
thoughts?
Sounds more like "Could I Be Dreaming" to me, but I think if it was heavily remixed, especially the chorus, it may have had hit potential. Yeah, of all the songs, changes made, I think this would've been the breakout hit of the album. But it needed more work. As is, it may have done better than the singles actually released, but still largely ignored in favor of the "better" songs out at the time.
i would guess that the coup for a label to steal DIANA ROSS away from motown was the motivation. everyone knew how closely tied Berry and Diana were, the massive impact they had had on the music industry. and just the overall brand of 'DIANA ROSS' was so huge at this time. many corporate execs could be easily blinded by such an opportunity. Also they didn't know necessarily all of the "behind the scenes" elements since motown did a solid job of keeping those under wraps. Other artists HAD been much more involved in the specifics of their career.
I wonder why there was no music videos for "Lets Go Up" & "Upfront" in this time period releasing singles without videos was a death knell to chart success
Do you remember mixed tapes? I put this on one for my now husband. It was perfect. I'm not a lyrics person, but even I heard these and thought they were perfect. I know lyrics are important to her too. A perfect song. I still love it. Thanks for bringing back into my memory.
I think they blew the budget on “Pieces Of Ice”. As regards “Upfront”, i honestly don’t think a promotional video would have made that much a difference to the outcome. It being totally the wrong choice for a DR single. I believe the song was singled out for praise in many USA trade reviews which probably influenced the decision
With lyrics that speak of love and devotion, “You Do It” would have given them plenty of scope to create a really cute video.
I completely support Miss Ross’s deal with RCA, it was the smartest thing she could have done. They gave her financial security and that’s more important than anything. And she may have felt that because of her input on the chic album, That she would be able to helm her own productions. In my opinion, there was only one true commercially viable album at RCA and that was swept away. I’m guessing that a lot of people bought the first album, played it once or twice and never touched it again. It was the follow up to a very exciting album and had the biggest song of her career on it plus two middling top 10 singles, still, considering the situation, It was a letdown - even with its platinum status, it was positioned to do much better if it was a stronger album. At the time, everyone I knew thought that silk electric and Ross 83 were major disappointments. Swept Away did well on the strength of its own strength - overcoming the severe handicap of following two or, arguably, three disappointing releases. Eaten had some possibilities, and the last album was just a disaster with nothing even having a glimmer of hope Of getting adds.
At the time, I felt the only viable single on ross 83 was up front because it sounded what was on the radio at the time. My personal favorite, that’s how you start over, might have it because occasionally a quality track like that, without the usual top 40 format sound, breaks through and I think this one had a decent chance of that because of its multiformat possibilities. However, I would not have bet money on it becoming a hit single.
at the time, I thought you do it was a snore, people that I knew that bought the album usually use that song as an example of why they hated it so much. In retrospect, let’s say in the last 10 years, I have begun to think that it might have had a chance, but only a chance. There’s no sure fire hit on this album for sure, and I still think the wisest thing to do would have been to release up front first - After re-recording it in a slightly lower key because she’s too screechy at the end and I can’t imagine too many people hearing that on the radio and thinking I wanna listen to diana ross straining to those high notes. Pieces of ice and let’s go up both had major major major exposure and didn’t get any interest whatsoever. I don’t think anything, including payola, could’ve put let’s go up even close to the top 50. If it were up to me, and it never is, I probably would have done up front, that’s how you start over And consulted the psychic friends network for guidance for the third single release while hoping like hell the next album would actually work.
Good post lol...In my own personal experience of the album, “Up Front” is usually named as the culprit by those for whom ross 83 does little for.
Similar to you with “You Do It”, i have come to appreciate the song far more with the passing of the years.
ross 83 was up against it from the off. Following to dud albums meant record buyers were probably a lot less tolerant in accepting a change in musical direction from Diana as might have previously been.
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Oh yeah, the deal was great for Ross. She'd have been a fool not to accept that kind of money, especially considering how much money she actually had working for Motown. I do wonder if she grew a little "lazy" [[yup, I said it again) because she had managed herself such a windfall. Just so many possibilities for her continued legacy and it all kind of...stalls.
I agree about Swept Away. The debut RCA album was a success on the strength of her coming off some of her biggest stuff ever, along with the curiosity about her next phase at RCA, and the new image on the cover of the album. Swept Away had three hits on it, one a big hit, another a major hit. She looked great on the cover and there was good song choice for most of it.
I much prefer ross 83 to Swept Away. “Rescue Me and “We Are The Children” being the two prime reasons. The only really memorable songs imo are “Missing You”, “Swept Away” and “Telephone”. “All Of You” is ok, but sounds like it should be on another album.
four out of ten from me.
Swept Away is very uneven IMO. Some very commercial songs - Swept, all of you, Touch by touch, missing you. then some crap - children, telephone. then some whispy singing on Forever Young, as if it was a hint or prelude to the terrible breathy whimpy whispy singing she would do on EA. then an oddball with Crazy.
I'm thinking , what albums aren't uneven?? Very few would I consider the total package. Even Marvin Gaye's WHATS GOING ON is mostly filler [[imo) and Stevie's "SONGS IN THE KEY..." could've been whittled jnto a single LP just fine [[and you can keep that throwaway bonus EP!:p)
I always understood that an album was a bunch of padded material wrapped around a spotlight piece or two that would be the singles. If you got three decent songs on an album of eight ....that was really something.
One trick was to wait for the artists every third of fourth release when the primetime stuff got reoffered as a greatest hits package. That included The Jackson Five and Diana Ross.
[rereading your post , I'm addressing uneven from a different angle , Sup)
I certainly didn’t hate Ross back then, it was my second Diana album and made me a fan forever after the disapointing experience of listening Silk.
Ross is too short but so were the Boss and diana.
To state everybody hated it back then is a very sweeping statement that is simply not true. ross 83 was a relief to me following two dismal albums. I myself remember playing it for friends who liked a few of the songs. It also received some very positive reviews from the music press.
Most of Diana’s Motown albums were soulful efforts be they pop/soul, jazz, funk or disco. I don’t think the diversity in musical direction was as obvious as when compared to her rca albums.
Musical identity and direction go hand in hand with artistic vision. Joe public for the most part likes to know what it’s getting. Stray to far and to often from the musical genre that made you famous and you risk alienating your fan base forever.
Uneven can mean a couple of things
1. too many producers and styles - like Sup 75 or Swept away,
2. too many weak songs - like Let the sunshine in, everything is everything, Country western & pop
3. both weak songs and too many cooks in the kitchen - Red Hot Rhythm and Blues, Ross 78
4. some moments that are strong but also a significant amount of lesser tracks - Ross 83, Why Do fools, Reflections
of course these are just my opinions on the albums
I like "Up Front"...i'll get my coat...