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this seems to be a major sticking point to many fans - that the duets might have simply flooded the market with mediocre product, overkill, eroded the reputations of the groups by having them release shlock, failed to live up to the massive talent of Levi and Jean
so what would you have done?
delay the releases to not interfere with the group's own recordings? hold the content and do something later? reduce the 3 albums into 1 much stronger? have different producers or a different approach?
Why have them duet at all? The Supremes had just come off of doing four albums with the Temptations in 68-69 and two television specials. As a fan I don't see the need for the duets at all. Or maybe do the Four Tops with Martha & The Vandellas. The Tops and Supremes was just a waste of time and talent. I think those albums and singles cannibalized the Supremes single and album sales and chart positions.
isn't it ironic that Frank Wilson was producing both acts individually and creating some masterpieces. yet his work with the groups on the duets was mediocre. You'd think he'd be able to create amazing songs for the Levi/Jean match up
I think Frank just did the third album.Quote:
Originally Posted by sup_fan
Let me correct myself. Frank did the second and third album. He was executive producer on the first.
I have always loved the Supremes-Tops duets. I agree there was some filler in there but that was true of many Motown albums. I just think there's a great, old fashioned, "live in the studio" quality to the duets that had been lost with the too smooth/polished recordings of many of their fellow artists.
As with the duets, another sticking point is always what's better on so many Motown records, with the Andantes or without? I know we've had lots of discussions on that.
As I said, I do agree the albums are somewhat uneven, but I still think there's a lot of great material in the duets albums and I love the way Jean's and Levi's voices played off each other.
on the first album , the only 2 songs i liked where River Deep and the cover of Stoned Soul Picnic. the second album , for me was better and then the third was,well ..lifeless but i remember a song called Melodie
the out takes such as Function at the Junction,Chain reaction and a few others were far better.
i would have created a best of or just held back until the album was ready but i have read BG was always in a hurry to get product out,therefore less quality albums were released. i think the same with Diana s album Everything Is.
I never thought the duet lps were a good idea at all because they only contributed to comparisons to Diana Ross and the Temptations. More than once I heard a DJ spin River Deep on the radio in 1970 and say that was the Supremes and the Temptations.
I liked, and still like, the pairing. Too much too soon, perhaps, in terms of releases. But excellent music just the same.
Weren't the duets albums three releases in a row for the Tops, with nothing solo in between? Just seems like oversaturation.
Motown never learned from its past mistakes. Weren't there several DRATS albums released on the same day, cancelling at least one of them out? I think by the 3rd album, the public had enough.
DRATS/TEMPTS worked because you had a sugary pop lead in the DRATS, and a/n r&b powerhouse lead/s in the TEMPTS. Opposites attract. With Supes/4T, Jean and Levi were too much of the same singer.
I just looked out of curiosity: in 2 years, from RIGHT ON to DYNAMITE, the Supremes released SIX albums. That's a LOT.
These days an artist might release an album every six years!
i'm assuming Dynamite was released solely to give both acts something for the holiday shoppers. neither act had a new lp ready for christmas shoppers in 71
frankly i think the 6 songs A&S did on the first two albums are the best
but overall i think this is a prime example of how motown was just out of touch with what record buyers wanted and was solely focused on immediate profits. the DRATS albums of the later 60s were weak and after a strong start with RO and the strong potential of NW, the label just didn't make an effort to make quality albums. the group could have transitioned to being viewed more seriously but with poor albums, the older kids and djs just didn't want to bother. there was too much other interesting music out there
One of my earliest memories was going into the record department of a department store, and seeing stacks of the Supremes/Tops album for 99 cents [[along with Sups Produced and Arranged by Jimmy Webb and the 5th Dimension's Living Together, Growing together). I ended up buying all three, and had the exact same reaction to all of them--they were old lady music!! The Tops album was the worst of all of them. The material gave new meaning to the term humdrum. At the time, groups like Labelle and Rufus were starting to catch on and they looked so outrageous and cool--then I looked at the cover of the three budget albums--I mean who thought dressing the groups up like cowboys was a good idea? Corny, dated, pandering--pick the term. And don't get me started on a dying dandelion cover of the Supreme's record. These groups were running on fumes and bore no resemblance to anything hip that was happening at the time [[1973 or so). Yes the Supremes got with it on later albums like High Energy and MSS, but it was too late. All of this was proof that there was no real plan for the post Ross Supremes--the name was just being milked for whatever money they could still bring in.
i wonder if they could have gone with a totally different concept. like what if the Tops and Sups did a cover album of Jesus Christ Superstar. it wouldn't be the entire show, they could sing the key songs, divide up the rolls and parts a bit giving all of the group members some lead lines and all. the show was very contemporary and cool so this would have at least been something new and interesting. Or Godspell maybe
Pippin would have been a natural tie in but 1) that show just wasn't as big culturally and 2) it wasn't until fall 72 when it came out so too late. but still could have been interesting
maybe with Pippin they could have done something like the Key To The Kingdom album. various motown acts doing various songs from the show. I Guess I'll Miss The Man would have been lovely here, the J5, irene ryan. maybe GKATP do something, the temps, etc
I think recording just one album would have served both groups far better. An album of Motown covers titled “Supremes/Four Tops Sing Motown Classics” would have provided a theme and made it more appealing to the casual record buyer.
I would love to have heard what they might have done with “Grapevine”. It would have been released following the “Touch” album.
if Frank Wilson was producing it and had produced the individual groups, i think it would have been fun to do Side 1 Motown Side 2 Swap Hits. have the Tops lead on Up the ladder, Jean singing it's All In the game and Just 7 numbers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ollie9
in the liner notes, frank could talk about working with the groups and now having them swap hits
I wouldn't be without "Magnificent - The Complete Studio Duets".
I don't think Jean and Levi are a great match, vocally.
Small--why do you think that? I don't think it was the voices. I think it was thoroughly hokey material.
I was always curious as to why there were 3 albums dedicated to this project. I thought perhaps sales were over the top to do it three times. I know today that was not the case. By the time they got to the third album and with songs like "Love The One You With", I did not hear the four tops on it all. I knew then Motown was just throwing material at us.
in addition to my theory of their needing an lp for the 71 holiday market [[therefore we got dynamite) i think the Return was based on a couple of reasons. River Deep performed very well, even if the parent album didn't. also the grouping did some touring together and the overall combo generated quite a bit of sales in the UK. they issued several additional singles there, trying to really get a big hit. both groups were racking up top 10s there with ease.Quote:
Originally Posted by captainjames
but again, the hokey material really seemed to hinder things. YGHLIYH was just a silly sing-along although Jean's ad libs at the end are spectacular. perhaps the single should have tried to keep more of those in order to give it some life. but the bouncy beat just ruined it for me
Do we know how often the Supremes/Tops performed as a package?
i know they appeared together at the Carter Barron Theater in DC, as i have a bootleg of it. they also appeared in London together, both onstage and on tv
The marketplace will always make room for a Great record. I’m gonna make you love me didn’t seem to suffer too much while love Child, cloud nine and I’m living in shame were charting along side of it. The first two duet albums with the top of the chart together for quite a while, not far behind where the cloud nine and love child albums. And I think the Temptations had a live album hanging around there. I absolutely do not agree that the Supremes Four Tops duets interfered with their singles or album sales. People will buy music they want. For the most part I thought those duet albums were atrocious, uninspired pablum thrown together for the sole purpose of making money. If that’s art I want none of it. The fact that all three albums were dismal failures does not surprise me. It’s too bad because there was some good stuff and I love river deep Mountain high. I wish that they had waited until they had an album of quality that they could’ve released and been proud of that would’ve done well. Putting out garbage like this when both groups were slipping was a very bad idea.Quote:
Originally Posted by sup_fan
but there are some special circumstances back in the fall of 68Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMotownManiac
1. IGMYLM was one of [[if not the first) super group duets. yes there had been duets before but not like this. people are so used to these today - Mariah and Boys II Men, Lionel and Diana, Paul McCartney and MJ, etc. So this was something truly new and exciting. plus as you mention, this is just a superb single and so people buy it
2. Love child - this was also totally groundbreaking. the darlings of America singing that they were a child born out of wedlock and is pleading with her boyfriend not to commit the same tragic mistake. there had never been such a blatant storyline by a girl group and frankly most male groups hadn't yet really been making such statements. plus it's a pop masterpiece
3. Both TCB and Join sold well. Join was a much stronger chart entry of the two, running for over 30 weeks. but given the mega power of the groups, this isn't not a sensational chart run. At the Copa, More hits, WDOLG, A go Go all ran much much longer. most were on the charts well over a year.
4. Love Child album only peaked at 14 and was in the top 20 only a few weeks. Given the massiveness of the title track, this is not a great performance for the record. and had dropped off the chart in just 21 weeks.
ironically the music on the LC album is some of the strongest of the releases that fall. Join is pleasant enough but most of the covers are ok at best. there are some magical moments and some duds too. the two albums were released within, literally, days of one another. there's just no way that there isn't some cannibalization between the two. kids in the 60s did not have the disposable income like kids today so there would be choices to make. plus there was just so much more music to choose from and new labels, new groups crowding the field. other the die-hard fans, people were going to pick and choose which to buy.
Motown was also desperately trying to show the world that they were not down and out with the defection of HDH. the lawsuits had recently hit the public and so everyone was assuming that the Sups were done for, and that would spell the end of the label. fortunately there was a lot of talent and motown and they jumped on all of it to get hits.
Motown saturated the market with the new Supremes. It probably didn't help the group gain a foothold in the market. They did well with the first 3 singles, but by releasing River Deep so close to Stoned Love and The Magnificent 7 so close to New Ways, it ended up hurting the group. The first LP only went to #113. So Return [[#154) and Dynamite[[#160) should never have been released. The first one was OK but they really didn't have any standout songs on the next 2. The Supremes were starting to slip on the charts and having a glut of releases with the 4Tops didn't help. Maybe release the first one but then they should have waited to release Stoned Love and New Ways or release River Deep and then wait for New Ways to do well and then release Magnificent 7. The old days of the 1960's and releasing a ton of albums for the Supremes had passed. It was a new group now and Motown was only looking at the name.
see i think there are moments on each of the lps that really stand out. but the problem is there so much dregs.
River Deep
I'm glad about it
for your love
melodie
reach out and touch - i really like the time change and the 4/4 beat on the end
one more bridge to cross
if you could see me now
what do you have to do [[overall the song is fine but i love mary's smoky sexy line and damn, she goes deep lol)
plus a few of the out takes
Function at the junction
bring back your love
hold onto me
so that just about makes up 1 lp of pretty to very strong material.
I saw this show at Carter Barron Amphitheatre. One of my high school teachers took me. I loved it and thought they were great together.Quote:
Originally Posted by sup_fan
Do you recall anything specifically from that show? Songs each group performed, and any performed they did together?Quote:
Originally Posted by thommg
[QUOTE=sup_fan;730372]but there are some special circumstances back in the fall of 68
1. IGMYLM was one of [[if not the first) super group duets. yes there had been duets before but not like this. people are so used to these today - Mariah and Boys II Men, Lionel and Diana, Paul McCartney and MJ, etc. So this was something truly new and exciting. plus as you mention, this is just a superb single and so people buy it
2. Love child - this was also totally groundbreaking. the darlings of America singing that they were a child born out of wedlock and is pleading with her boyfriend not to commit the same tragic mistake. there had never been such a blatant storyline by a girl group and frankly most male groups hadn't yet really been making such statements. plus it's a pop masterpiece
3. Both TCB and Join sold well. Join was a much stronger chart entry of the two, running for over 30 weeks. but given the mega power of the groups, this isn't not a sensational chart run. At the Copa, More hits, WDOLG, A go Go all ran much much longer. most were on the charts well over a year.
4. Love Child album only peaked at 14 and was in the top 20 only a few weeks. Given the massiveness of the title track, this is not a great performance for the record. and had dropped off the chart in just 21 weeks.
The Love Child lp got off to a great start with strong sales but was soon stifled by Join and TCB which sabotaged what is easily one of the Supremes best lps and easily the best Diana Ross & The Supremes album. Motown just went a bit crazy with the resurgence of the group off the success of Love Child and inundated us with lps. Teenagers are your primary record buyers and we all had allowances that didn't give us enough leg room to buy all these lps. I didn't get the Temptations duets til Christmas as presents. A number 14 placement on the lp charts [[it got higher on other non-Billboard charts) is a successful album.
[QUOTE=BayouMotownMan;731135]“Love Child” is certainly my own favourite DR&S album that had potential to chart even higher then it did. ‘More product’ seems to have been a Motown mantra that ended up stifling the huge potential of so many classic albums.Quote:
Originally Posted by sup_fan
Choc full of potential hits, i always thought the “LC” set should have been re-prompted and harvested for hit singles as opposed to releasing the rather vapid “LTSSI”.
[QUOTE=Ollie9;731137]I totally agree. It is a great piece. The most cohesive of any Supremes album from the Diana Ross era. Also I think for the time, it was a very good showing on the charts as I don’t think Motown albums were generally big sellers in the pop market, as the focus shifted more to FM radio and albums. I think for the time it was unusual for rhythm and blues artists to sell albums in large quantities, and Marvin Gaye’s “What’s Going On” was seen as a breakthrough in that regard.Quote:
Originally Posted by BayouMotownMan
I would’ve loved to have seen if ”How Long Has That Evening Train Been Gone” did well as a single. It reminds me a lot of the superlative performance by Jean Terrell on “5:30 Plane” and has a similar subject matter and vibe.
[QUOTE=kenneth;731138]Good point Kenneth, though it certainly deserved to do as well as say “WDOLG”, A Go Go” “Join The Tempts” or “TCB”.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ollie9
”Evening Train” was screaming out to be released as a single and might have helped push the album further up the charts. In fact almost anything from the Love Child” album was stronger then the insipid “Composer”.
[QUOTE=kenneth;731138]i have a few ideas about the LC albumQuote:
Originally Posted by Ollie9
there's the rumor that Motown was looking to fill the lp with mature songs focusing on more topical things and more socially relevant materials. we have the first 4 tunes on the actual lp plus a few others that have been noted as being planned for the lp, like The Beginning of the End Of Love. i think this would have been an interesting lp but it might have been a bit too heavy handed and dark of an album. also it would have been pretty incongruous with their overall act and image. how would fans have reacted to having this big album by the girls singing about social injustice and problems but meanwhile headlining at the Flamingo in satin and sequins.
Gordy was even worried that What's Going On was going to ruin Gaye's career and the music it contained was much more inline with his image and sound.
as released, i think LC has many many great songs. but i think the block of the 4 tunes on Side 1 makes it too jarring of a contrast. they should have interspersed them throughout the album. the flow would have been better
and yes. Train should have been the follow up single to LC. i also think I'll Set You Free and Can't Shake It Loose had hit single potential. certainly far superior to Composer or Shame, although Shame did go to #10. but i think that's simply because the backing track on Shame is hot, combined with the potentially scandalous title.
The Love Child album should have not only charted higher than it did but should have lasted longer on the charts similar to WDOLG, MH and AGG. I think the problem was the song placement, rather than the songs, all of which I like.Quote:
Originally Posted by sup_fan
Love Child was a song that fit The Supremes and the Motown Sound to a tee. That's why it was a hit. The social message was secondary to the music. Had it been a ballad, similar to Does Your Mama Know About Me, I'm not sure it would have been #1. [Do we know if anyone has recorded a ballad of Love Child?] I think following the title song with slower tempo songs, despite how good they are, hampered the overall success of the album. The songs on Side 1 should have continued the energy of the title track.
I was 19 at the time of the album's release and enjoyed it, as is. However, my hunch is that younger teens and fans who loved the title track might have been put-off by the three songs that followed, resulting in a tepid response to the album as a whole. Had the energy continued on Side 1 with uptempo songs and had Side 2 focused on a mature mood and theme, I think the album would have had a longer chart life.
I would have liked to have seen Keep An Eye follow Love Child as a single release, if social messaging was the focus. Evening Train might have worked as a mature offering. However, I think Shake It Loose and Honey Bee, with their infectious melodies and lyrics, would have sustained the energy and chart action set by Love Child.
These days I prefer to start my listening with music that gets me going rather than something that encourages me to stay sedentary. I have reformatted many albums with this idea in mind. I format as if it was a vinyl album.
My Love Child Playlist:
Side 1
Love Child
Can't Shake It Loose
Honey Bee [Keep On Stinging Me]
He's My Sunny Boy
[Don't Break These] Chains Of Love
I'll Set You Free
Side 2
Some Things You Never Get Used To
Keep An Eye
How Long Has That Evening Train Been Gone
Does Your Mama Know About Me
You Ain't Livin' Till You're Lovin'
You've Been So Wonderful To Me
This makes for a fully engaging track listing johnjeb. You missed your calling lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by johnjeb
Although i have always particularly enjoyed the vibe of “Train”, almost any one of these songs could have followed “Love Child” and been successful.
Getting things back on topic, here’s my view on the Four Tops duets. In the words of Betty Wright’s mother, “I liked the music, the tracks were very nice” thanks to the funk brothers, especially Jamerson [ Though Babbitt might have been on some of the songs as well]. For some reason Jamerson’s riffs on duets had twice as much gusto. As for the material, the quality greatly varied but the strongest album IMO was “the Return of the Magnificent Seven”. I feel that Ashford & Simpson had taken full control over the production of the project!