1971

1971 seemed to be a year that was pretty much up & down for both Diana Ross and for the new Supremes.
Diana Ross had 3 singles released.Reach Out I'll Be There [[#29),Surrender[[#38) and I'm Still Waiting [[#63). That was surprisingly spotty chart action for someone that Motown was 1000% behind, perhaps the focus was making Lady Sings The Blues.
The New Supremes had 3 releases and another with the Four Tops-Nathan Jones [[#16), Touch [[#71) and Floy Joy[[#16). With the 4 Tops they had You Gotta Have Love In Your Heart [[#55). Granted Floy Joy was very late 71 and went into 1972, it seemed they were not on tv promoting these songs like Up The Ladder [[#10),Everybody[[#21) and Stoned Love[[#7). I think with Cindy ready to leave, touring and the inability to recreate these songs live made them not promote like they did in 1970. In 1971, their chart action also became spotty.
I was wondering if there were thoughts behind why 1971 seemed to be such an up & down year on the charts for both Diana Ross and the New Supremes. Any thoughts?

The preparation/filming of Lady Sings the Blues obviously had an impact on Diana's releases during this time.

Her TV special 'Diana' as well as the soundtrack album was another release for her during this period. In hindsight, perhaps it would have been good to have a new song that could have been premiered in the special and released as a single soon after.

The UK - even into 1972 - showed that Diana could still have had hit singles released while she was 'absent' when they released songs like 'Doobedood' [[which hit #12) from her back catalogue.

I think 1971 Motown was just not operating at top levels like they did in the 60s. Just silly decisions. All three of Diana's singles were released while she was well into her pregnancy. Two of the singles were released in the same month, as well as the Surrender album. I don't know how well Diana did during her pregnancy, but if she was up to it, she should have been doing some television work where she promoted her music. I would say both "I'll Be There" and "Surrender" performed as well as could be expected without her promoting them physically. Had she done TV I think both would've done even better. While I'm not particularly crazy about "I'm Still Waiting", I do think it should've been a hit. But with two singles out, DJs chose "Surrender" over "Waiting". Would've been interesting to see what "Waiting" did on it's own, especially considering it's success overseas.

With the Supremes, I think it was song choice and lack of TV performances. The more I listen to "Nathan Jones" the more I realize that it needed more work. As is, it's a good song, which is why it charted as high as it did. But with a little more work, with a little more extra this and that, I think the group could've scored nearly as big as "Stoned Love".

As much as I love "Touch", it just wasn't a good single. I think it would've done a little better if not a duet. Mary should've probably done the song alone. But I don't think that would've made enough of a difference. I'm crazy about the Touch album, and with the exception of "Time and Love", I'm a fan of each song. To my ears the only other song on the album that might make sense as a single is "Here Comes the Sunrise". Would it have been a top 10 or 20 hit? I don't know. Would it have done better than "Touch"? I suspect so.

"Gotta Have Love" was just another misstep. I don't think the public was clamoring for another Supremes/Tops album, let alone another duet single. Perhaps with a tweak here or there, as a Supremes only single the song may have done much better. The whole "Love the world" thing was big in music at the time, so I definitely understand why someone may have thought releasing "Gotta" was a good idea. I just don't think in it's present form that it had what it took to go the distance.

"Nathan", and later on "Floy Joy", proved that the public was still interested in the Supremes, but not reaching the top 10 on the Hot 100 suggests that the public felt the music could be better. I've said it before and I'll say it again: the Jean Supremes had what it took to stay relevant, they just needed relevant music, music that would compete with what was out and hitting at the time. That huge hit eluded them post "Stoned".

I wonder how much the ending of the Ed Sullivan show affected the group? In the 60's, they on his show every few months. That's a LOT of exposure.

Ed Sullivan ended on March 28th, 1971; this before any 1971 single had been released.

and let's not forget the reorg/restructuring at motown and the planned move to LA. Berry had stepped away from the day to day work with the music side of things and Ewart Abner was leading it up. [[not sure of the exact date of this). seems that the leadership of music just wasn't as in tune to trends and tastes, as to what they should do with the Sups.

Plus J5 were crazy hot, Marvin released What's Gonig On. Temps were crazy hot with Imagination and Superstar plus their Sky's The Limit album. Steve released where I'm coming from. Michael had first solo release with Got to be there. so there was ton of success elsewhere. but they just couldn't seem to focus or find a path for the sups

UK 1971 both had great success so why did it not happen to the same extent on their home turf?

Diana Ross

Singles

#7 Remember Me
#1 I'm Still Waiting
#10 Surrender

Albums

#31 Everything Is Everything
#10 I'm Still Waiting

Supremes

Singles

#3 Stoned Love
#11 River Deep Mountain High w Four Tops
#5 Nathan Jones
#25 You've Got To Love In Your Heart w Four Tops

Albums

#6 Magnificent Seven w Four Tops
#40 Touch

I don’t Cindy is a factor especially since the first indication wasn’t until Feb 1972 when she found out she was pregnant. They were on tv thru May 1971 then they were on the road. One more appearance in the fall then they were overseas for much of November and December.

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Originally Posted by jim aka jtigre99

1971 seemed to be a year that was pretty much up & down for both Diana Ross and for the new Supremes.
Diana Ross had 3 singles released.Reach Out I'll Be There [[#29),Surrender[[#38) and I'm Still Waiting [[#63). That was surprisingly spotty chart action for someone that Motown was 1000% behind, perhaps the focus was making Lady Sings The Blues.
The New Supremes had 3 releases and another with the Four Tops-Nathan Jones [[#16), Touch [[#71) and Floy Joy[[#16). With the 4 Tops they had You Gotta Have Love In Your Heart [[#55). Granted Floy Joy was very late 71 and went into 1972, it seemed they were not on tv promoting these songs like Up The Ladder [[#10),Everybody[[#21) and Stoned Love[[#7). I think with Cindy ready to leave, touring and the inability to recreate these songs live made them not promote like they did in 1970. In 1971, their chart action also became spotty.
I was wondering if there were thoughts behind why 1971 seemed to be such an up & down year on the charts for both Diana Ross and the New Supremes. Any thoughts?

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I know thanks to Mary's second book Supreme Faith where she often blamed Lack of promotion by Motown for a Supremes song not being a big hit that some latch on to the magic of promotion. But the public is the final arbiter of what becomes a hit, and what endures. I'm doubtful if Ross or Supremes had made more TV appearances to promote any of their 71 singles it would have made much difference. Like He's My Man [[which I understand was the most performed Supremes single ever on TV at time of single release) the viewing audience could have watched the performance, enjoyed it mildly and then wonder what the next segment of the variety or talk show would bring.

For instance, how many times did The Supremes perform Where Did Our Love go on TV as it was rising up the charts?

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Originally Posted by jim aka jtigre99

1971 seemed to be a year that was pretty much up & down for both Diana Ross and for the new Supremes.
Diana Ross had 3 singles released.Reach Out I'll Be There [[#29),Surrender[[#38) and I'm Still Waiting [[#63). That was surprisingly spotty chart action for someone that Motown was 1000% behind, perhaps the focus was making Lady Sings The Blues.
The New Supremes had 3 releases and another with the Four Tops-Nathan Jones [[#16), Touch [[#71) and Floy Joy[[#16). With the 4 Tops they had You Gotta Have Love In Your Heart [[#55). Granted Floy Joy was very late 71 and went into 1972, it seemed they were not on tv promoting these songs like Up The Ladder [[#10),Everybody[[#21) and Stoned Love[[#7). I think with Cindy ready to leave, touring and the inability to recreate these songs live made them not promote like they did in 1970. In 1971, their chart action also became spotty.
I was wondering if there were thoughts behind why 1971 seemed to be such an up & down year on the charts for both Diana Ross and the New Supremes. Any thoughts?

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All of the focus in the world won’t help singles that are inappropriate for their marketplace. The only song from either act that I feel had hit record written all over it, was Nathan Jones. The problem with Nathan is too many of the lyrics are garbled making the record hard to follow. Everyone I knew that liked the sound of that record had no idea that the first line was packed your bags, or, later, “the key that you’re holding won’t fit my door” we had to wait for song hits to come out months later and by then the single was dead. If those had been cleaned up, and the fade more dynamic, you could’ve had a number one record there.

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Originally Posted by RanRan79

I think 1971 Motown was just not operating at top levels like they did in the 60s. Just silly decisions. All three of Diana's singles were released while she was well into her pregnancy. Two of the singles were released in the same month, as well as the Surrender album. I don't know how well Diana did during her pregnancy, but if she was up to it, she should have been doing some television work where she promoted her music. I would say both "I'll Be There" and "Surrender" performed as well as could be expected without her promoting them physically. Had she done TV I think both would've done even better. While I'm not particularly crazy about "I'm Still Waiting", I do think it should've been a hit. But with two singles out, DJs chose "Surrender" over "Waiting". Would've been interesting to see what "Waiting" did on it's own, especially considering it's success overseas.

With the Supremes, I think it was song choice and lack of TV performances. The more I listen to "Nathan Jones" the more I realize that it needed more work. As is, it's a good song, which is why it charted as high as it did. But with a little more work, with a little more extra this and that, I think the group could've scored nearly as big as "Stoned Love".

As much as I love "Touch", it just wasn't a good single. I think it would've done a little better if not a duet. Mary should've probably done the song alone. But I don't think that would've made enough of a difference. I'm crazy about the Touch album, and with the exception of "Time and Love", I'm a fan of each song. To my ears the only other song on the album that might make sense as a single is "Here Comes the Sunrise". Would it have been a top 10 or 20 hit? I don't know. Would it have done better than "Touch"? I suspect so.

"Gotta Have Love" was just another misstep. I don't think the public was clamoring for another Supremes/Tops album, let alone another duet single. Perhaps with a tweak here or there, as a Supremes only single the song may have done much better. The whole "Love the world" thing was big in music at the time, so I definitely understand why someone may have thought releasing "Gotta" was a good idea. I just don't think in it's present form that it had what it took to go the distance.

"Nathan", and later on "Floy Joy", proved that the public was still interested in the Supremes, but not reaching the top 10 on the Hot 100 suggests that the public felt the music could be better. I've said it before and I'll say it again: the Jean Supremes had what it took to stay relevant, they just needed relevant music, music that would compete with what was out and hitting at the time. That huge hit eluded them post "Stoned".

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I agree wholeheartedly with everything you said here except two things:
surrender was released in early July 1971. It had evaporated totally before I’m still waiting, to my surprise, was issued in October or early November. I don’t know the exact date but I was working on a killer haunted house at the time which would’ve been somewhere between October 10 and November 5. I do think that I’m still waiting, with TV exposure, could have hit big here. However, they needed to restore the original fade. The 45 version in the US is absurdly cropped and ruins the construction of the record.

I think there was room to include reach out I’ll be there on the Diana special, buy shortening the bill Cosby bit, that cornball Frank Sinatra thing with Michael and Diana, and get another minute shaving a bit here and there. The single version is only four minutes, I think it would’ve had a chance but I think it really needed to be re-edited. After the disappointing showing of remember me, I’m really surprised the follow-up single was not given more exposure. I know she was pregnant, but it’s not that far to go to a couple TV studios like she did for mahogany. And I know that she was working on Lady sings the blues, but they could have found time if they really cared. I don’t think surrender had a chance in the states.

i’ve often wondered why Motown didn’t take I’m more aggressive approach to gauging public interest for a single, much like networks do for TV pilots: they expose the material to a randomly selected audience, and gauge their feedback. If that had happened, touch and you got to have love in your heart would never have gone out as 45s.

I don’t believe that the success of a single has very much to do with the publics perception of the act that performs the single. If they hear a song on the radio and they really dig it they buy the 45. If they love it enough to buy the album, win otherwise they would not have bought the album, that shows actual interest in the act. Where did our love go took off like crazy and no one knew who the Supremes were. The same for I want you back, which didn’t exactly zoom to the top. Fight and Claude its way to the number one spot and is the quintessential example of what I consider to be a great single launched with a decent amount, but not a big amount of adds, but the response they were getting at the stations that were playing it, helped it go up the charts so other stations took a chance on it. That’s textbook how it’s supposed to happen. Surrender, reach out and touch, everybody’s got the right to love, i’ll start it off with much more support, or similar support in the case of surrender, with I want you back. But the public wasn’t responding, No matter how much Motown pushed or wanted it to, you can get a record played sometimes, but you can’t make the public go out and buy the song just because they’re hearing it on the radio. They have to like it. And I think a lot of these singles just did not get decent response. I know you like touch, but I think it is the worst choice of a single since Run, run, run.

It does seem that after such a great start for Diana Ross in 1970 with a #! and The Supremes with 2 Top 10's, that 1971 seemed to have stalled both of them a bit. I seem to see that Motown had in both of them the top female solo act and the top female group, yet the attention seemed to be elsewhere regarding song choice and tweaking the chosen songs would have helped. Also Motown was moving to CA and focusing on movies as well as some other acts like the Jackson 5, Stevie and Marvin that became hot at that time. Plus audience reaction to the songs wasn't there. I truly liked Surrender and thought the previous year that Remember Me was one of Diana's best. On Touch, Nathan Jones was a great song, but I agree that it needed mixed better and parts of it sounded muddy and muted. It definitely had the punch to go further than #16. I loved Touch, but it was mixed strangely and unlike the later Floy Joy and Automatically Sunshine, Mary and Jean's voices don't mesh with the message of the song. I honestly feel that Mary should have sung the entire song as lead herself with much more attention to how it was mixed. Funny, many of the other songs on Touch were strong, not muddy and muted and not in need of remixing. There were alot of songs on Touch that are vibrant, strong, understandable and mixed properly. I liked Here Comes The Sunrise but I do not think the lyrics and sound really translated as a single like some people do.

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Originally Posted by TheMotownManiac

All of the focus in the world won’t help singles that are inappropriate for their marketplace. The only song from either act that I feel had hit record written all over it, was Nathan Jones. The problem with Nathan is too many of the lyrics are garbled making the record hard to follow. Everyone I knew that liked the sound of that record had no idea that the first line was packed your bags, or, later, “the key that you’re holding won’t fit my door” we had to wait for song hits to come out months later and by then the single was dead. If those had been cleaned up, and the fade more dynamic, you could’ve had a number one record there.

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completely agree. it's almost like they were in such a rush to get this out. they essentially abandoned the whole NW project. by early 71 they should have released a 2nd song from the lp. that would have given them a little more time to perfect NJ. Jean is a great singer but she didn't have [[frankly no one has) the insanely perfect diction that Diana has. you have to be able to understand the lyrics, generally, if you want a record to sell

and agree about the fade. after the bridge the song just doesn't bulid like it should to a dramatic finish

here's an idea - what if they did some sort of medley of Mountain and Reach out? i'm not sure how. but could have been an interesting way to introduce the song and then have it released as a single.

I agree too much focus in the special was paid to dumb skits. more music would have made it a stronger effort

i think by later 71, both DR and the Sups were suffering from the same thing. the public was just getting tired. they both needed something totally new and groundbreaking to transform and elevate their images.

DR got lady

the supremes got nothing

DR got Lady, and on the pop side, Michael Masser as a producer, who while maintaining the Ross pop sound expanded it with his style of production.

The Supremes got Jimmy Webb album. It was something of a change of pace. It just didn't work [[though I personally like some of the songs/tracks and respect the ambition of the project, though not necessarily the execution).

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Originally Posted by Spreadinglove21

DR got Lady, and on the pop side, Michael Masser as a producer, who while maintaining the Ross pop sound expanded it with his style of production.

The Supremes got Jimmy Webb album. It was something of a change of pace. It just didn't work [[though I personally like some of the songs/tracks and respect the ambition of the project, though not necessarily the execution).

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very valid point. the fact that motown went outside of their in-house producers actually does say a lot. while many of us share the opinion that the album wasn't the right output, we do tend to gloss over the fact that an outside producer was a really big deal. Had they really done this with any group before? sure Jimmy had done a one-off song on the Xmas album. and later motown brought in Perry and the chic due for Diana. but in 72 it was a very different thing. some of the historians have made a big point about how radical it was that Berry experimented with Bones Howes for Diana's debut. even though it wasn't released. so barely 2 years later, they bring in JW for an entire album and do releaes it.

so yes, i think you're right that they were actively looking for a totally new sound and approach with this album. but it was a dud IMO

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Originally Posted by Spreadinglove21

I know thanks to Mary's second book Supreme Faith where she often blamed Lack of promotion by Motown for a Supremes song not being a big hit that some latch on to the magic of promotion. But the public is the final arbiter of what becomes a hit, and what endures. I'm doubtful if Ross or Supremes had made more TV appearances to promote any of their 71 singles it would have made much difference. Like He's My Man [[which I understand was the most performed Supremes single ever on TV at time of single release) the viewing audience could have watched the performance, enjoyed it mildly and then wonder what the next segment of the variety or talk show would bring.

For instance, how many times did The Supremes perform Where Did Our Love go on TV as it was rising up the charts?

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Promotion is key to any product though. There are a ton of songs that are fantastic that no one ever heard because...drum roll...there was no promotion. "Where Did Our Love Go" benefitted from the Supremes' coinciding participation on the Dick Clark tour. It wasn't TV, but the song would get airplay prior to the tour coming into a city. At some point the song began to catch on and was getting airplay all across the country. Would be interesting to know how well the song may have done if the Supremes were playing "spotty" dates and not on a nation wide tour.

Another good case in point is "Let Me Go the Right Way". While the song barely made a dent on the Hot 100, it hit #26 [[I think) on the R&B chart, probably owing to the fact that at the time the Supremes were on the Motown Revue, playing venues that catered to the R&B audience. The song would be promoted on the radio prior to the appearance and it makes sense that people might have gone out and purchased it post seeing the girls perform it in the show. There's even a radio spot of Diana promoting the song.

All of this is part of the make or break section of the business. It's business 101: You get your product out there and you promote it. In regards to music, it is true that a heavily promoted song or album might fail to catch on for a variety of reasons. It is also true that a barely promoted song or album will most likely never catch on, for an obvious reason. What we know about the 60s Supremes is that the Motown machine was in full effect. The ladies were everywhere. And one could argue that they had become so big that any record they put out could go the distance without a lot of push. But Motown was working itself to death [[and the Supremes were doing the same) to keep the group on top. I don't think there's any question that this attention dropped significantly when Diana left the group, and yet it might still be unfair to criticize Motown for this.

When the 60s Supremes were barreling through the music world, who at the company could really compete with this attention? The Tempts were probably the closest, which is why they were so big in their own right and got a lot of the label's time and attention. Both acts had what it took to be big beyond pop music. As good as many of the other acts were, no one was really ready for what Motown was trying to accomplish but the Supremes, the Tempts, and probably the Tops. The 70s Supremes were in a different position. The J5 were a force of nature for awhile there. Marvin and Stevie had come into their own as self contained artists. Gladys Knight and the Pips were huge. And the Tempts weren't showing signs of slipping and were still firmly in their glory years. Mary, Jean and Cindy suddenly had much more Motown competition than the Supremes did as of 1965. They had slipped down the totem pole. The only way to get them back up was with excellent music that had people hooked from the intro as it blared through the speakers of a radio. With 1971 they mostly couldn't seem to get that quality back and the audience went home. "Nathan", and later "Floy", don't seem to have had much of any television exposure. The question has to be asked if this was a factor in not going any higher than it did. Obviously the songs were well liked, but why the stall? I opine that some additional promo work might have gotten both songs to do a little better, but I'm betting that the time when both songs peaked at 16 that there were 15 songs that were really just "better" music.

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Originally Posted by TheMotownManiac

I agree wholeheartedly with everything you said here except two things:
surrender was released in early July 1971. It had evaporated totally before I’m still waiting, to my surprise, was issued in October or early November. I don’t know the exact date but I was working on a killer haunted house at the time which would’ve been somewhere between October 10 and November 5. I do think that I’m still waiting, with TV exposure, could have hit big here. However, they needed to restore the original fade. The 45 version in the US is absurdly cropped and ruins the construction of the record.

I think there was room to include reach out I’ll be there on the Diana special, buy shortening the bill Cosby bit, that cornball Frank Sinatra thing with Michael and Diana, and get another minute shaving a bit here and there. The single version is only four minutes, I think it would’ve had a chance but I think it really needed to be re-edited. After the disappointing showing of remember me, I’m really surprised the follow-up single was not given more exposure. I know she was pregnant, but it’s not that far to go to a couple TV studios like she did for mahogany. And I know that she was working on Lady sings the blues, but they could have found time if they really cared. I don’t think surrender had a chance in the states.

i’ve often wondered why Motown didn’t take I’m more aggressive approach to gauging public interest for a single, much like networks do for TV pilots: they expose the material to a randomly selected audience, and gauge their feedback. If that had happened, touch and you got to have love in your heart would never have gone out as 45s.

I don’t believe that the success of a single has very much to do with the publics perception of the act that performs the single. If they hear a song on the radio and they really dig it they buy the 45. If they love it enough to buy the album, win otherwise they would not have bought the album, that shows actual interest in the act. Where did our love go took off like crazy and no one knew who the Supremes were. The same for I want you back, which didn’t exactly zoom to the top. Fight and Claude its way to the number one spot and is the quintessential example of what I consider to be a great single launched with a decent amount, but not a big amount of adds, but the response they were getting at the stations that were playing it, helped it go up the charts so other stations took a chance on it. That’s textbook how it’s supposed to happen. Surrender, reach out and touch, everybody’s got the right to love, i’ll start it off with much more support, or similar support in the case of surrender, with I want you back. But the public wasn’t responding, No matter how much Motown pushed or wanted it to, you can get a record played sometimes, but you can’t make the public go out and buy the song just because they’re hearing it on the radio. They have to like it. And I think a lot of these singles just did not get decent response. I know you like touch, but I think it is the worst choice of a single since Run, run, run.

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You're right about "I'm Still Waiting". I looked up Diana's releases and Wikipedia lists both "Surrender" and "Waiting" as July 1971. Good catch.

I also agree with the focus groups. That would've been great for the company period. I realize that Motown had the QC meetings where they basically did this, but everyone there was involved in Motown business, sometimes the producers and writers would be involved. There's no way these people could be expected to represent the average person who hears a song and either loves it or hates it due to their own personal tastes. Those QC meetings were basically "Would anyone buy this?" "Will radio stations play this?" "Would you rather buy this song or a hotdog?" The average record buyer didn't ask those questions. It was all about feelings. How's the beat? Is it danceable? Is it a love song that leaves me all dreamy eyed about that special someone? Does it make me feel good? Is it like nails on a chalkboard? Had they gathered up the target audience and used them in the QC meetings to gauge the viability of releases, Motown may have ended up with more hits than they could've ever expected, and avoided losing money on music that regular people were never going to be interested in buying.

Yes, I like "Touch", but it was a horrible choice for a single. Compare it to the great slow jams of that era. It's different, but not special. If you're not going to be special, then you can't be different. And there's some great slow cuts from 1971. As previous consensus here has shown, the Supremes weren't known as a ballad group. I don't fault the attempt to go in that direction, but the song just didn't have an "it" factor. Mary was a perfect vehicle for the slow route, but it was going to have to be a song that had a wow factor from beginning to ending. "Touch" was not that song. I will give Motown credit for trying. I think they were going for something more progressive. Compare that to "Run"'s release, a year old song with an already outdated sound. Or "The Weight", which should never have gotten a single release over "Why Must We Fall In Love". And then there's "The Composer", a personal favorite of mine, but an absolutely horrible choice for a single. I'd rate "Touch" above all of these as singles.

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Originally Posted by sup_fan

i think by later 71, both DR and the Sups were suffering from the same thing. the public was just getting tired. they both needed something totally new and groundbreaking to transform and elevate their images.

DR got lady

the supremes got nothing

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Excellent point!

To what degree this mattered is hard to measure.... but Holland Dozier Holland had moved on, making their Supremes seem old hat, from their perspective at the least, and now there was their new girl group on a new 70s label representing them that was livening up the charts, and consuming limited radio airtime, with three hits throughout the year 1971:

Honey Cone.

Added thought: Honey Cone went completely unknown in the UK, no hits there ... could this be partially the reason The Supremes fared so much better there than in the US at this time?