The Supremes had 6 single releases in 1972 which was too many.
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The Supremes had 6 single releases in 1972 which was too many.
The Supremes had 3 single releases in 1972: automatically sunshine, your wonderful sweet sweet love, I guess I’ll miss the man. There were no others. All 3 were problematic as singles.
Automatically sunshine has a fairly weak chorus, but wonderful verses very well sung. Mary is sexy as hell.
YWSSL Has a great track, but Jean doesn’t sell the lyric correctly so the listener is instantly lost as to what the song is about – which is A single killer right off the bat. Also, the background vocals need to be brightened up by a higher voice. I know the on anDantes are on this album, so there’s no excuse for the dull bg sound. It’s too bad they couldn’t bring Flo back just to record backgrounds with Mary.
IGIMTM is a pretty, gentle tune but it’s a very unpleasant lyric and not one that people would identify with and want to listen to over and over again. Jeans vocal performance is superb and I think it needed a little bit better production and some sort of ending…… As it stands, It was a terrible choice to go out as it is…. but with some help I think it could’ve hit.
They had six [[6) releases in 1972. That is a fact, everything else is just your opinion.....
1. "Floy Joy" [[released in Dec. 71' but did not enter the charts until Jan. 72'
2. "Automatically Sunshine"
3. "Without the One You Love"
4. "Your Wonderful, Sweet Sweet Love"
5. "I Guess I'll Miss the Man"
6. "Reach Out and Touch [[Somebody's Hand)"
Thanks for the update - I never knew that it had ever been performed here. Must admit, even though I really did love the LP, "Pippin", I had absolutely no idea what the story was really about [[nor did I know any of the performers, including Irene Granny Ryan, although I later learned she was famous for being in some kind of series?).
You're mixing regions. Without and Reach were only international releases. they were not in the US. the singles RELEASED on the US were
Automatically Sunshine - 4/11/72
YWSSL - 7/11/72
I Guess - Oct 72 [[not sure why no sources can list the date of the month - anyone??)
internationally the release schedule was:
Floy Joy - Feb 72
Without - May 72
Auto - June 72
Reach - Nov 72
YWSSL - Nov 72
Internationally, I Guess wasn't released until Jan 74. As for FJ in the states, yes i agree that you have a point that it's charting activity was in 72 and not 71. And the girls promoted it on Merv in Jan 72. but technically, the single was released on 12/1. there certainly were other singles that started to chart within weeks or even days of release. FJ obviously took a little time to warm up. but it was a 71 release.
you're definitely right. wasn't it around mid 72 that their identify crisis continued over to their live shows too, when they took a bunch of the old DRATS song book and brought many of the tunes back?
It always seemed, at least through the mid 70s, that there was a total lack of coordination between the studio and live work of the groups. Diana included. they were taking these huge Vegas-like shows and touring them everywhere. and then they occasionally incorporate a new recorded song. But the tours weren't focused on centered around an album or project. maybe they started some of this with Diana and Lady tours. but the Sups certainly weren't doing anything significant to promote their lps.
Working with 3 high profile producers - Smokey, JW and SW - you'd think that they're really hype that up. leverage the producer's name and notoriety. revamp the show to acknowledge their working with him. plus the revamping of the show would have re-energized the public's desire to attend
Exactly. When Gil Askey came back as their musical director, he brought out the Farewell charts and reincorporated them into the show. Jean was not particularly happy with this. She refused to say the spoken passages in "Love Is Here And Now You're Gone" and put her foot down on doing "Love Child" despite having performed it in their shows when she first joined. I think a lot of this falls back on Motown and their inability to break out of the Vegas-style show format that had worked so well in the 60s. By 1972, the musical audience had changed and doing a Vegas-style show dated the group and skewed them to an older crowd.
They needed a Vicki Wickham to come in and totally reinvent them, their image, and musical approach. I would have kept the glamour, but dropped the 60s gowns and become more in line with how the Three Degrees were doing it. When I said earlier that they needed to be reintroduced to the R&B community, I meant in the aspect that they should have been the primary target in their musical approach. In the 60s, Motown was really about the crossover appeal. They wanted to hit on the pop charts. By the 70s, the focus should have shifted to just the R&B charts and less on the pop. The Pointer Sisters were catching fire around this time. Having someone like Thom Bell or Stevie Wonder as their musical advisor/producer would have steered them into a direction of being a strictly R&B act. Drop the Vegas stuff, the lighter pop stuff, etc. The ladies were totally capable of it. Transformation was needed and it could have kept them going for much longer.
I think @bradsupremes' analysis is astute and interesting, and I largely agree with him. [[Of course I always find people interesting when I agree with them... :) .)
But seriously, I only discovered the Diane-led group after they'd split up already. I liked some of the Jean Terrell singles a great deal, and their albums as well. But as @brad mentions, the styling and gowns made them seem kind of quaint to me at the time. When the group evolved into Mary, Scherrie and Susaye [[or MS and Cindy even), they did seem to change their image to something hipper and younger.
It does seem there just wasn't enough attention made to just who their audience was or should be, whether it should continue to be the Vegas crowd or young record buyers. Of course, with Berry Gordy's attention to Diane during their prime years, this balance was achieved very skillfully. Without his personal attention, and for many other reasons of course, the group's image was scattered and floundered some.
yeah the bootlegs i have of the tours in late 72 with the Temps, their Dec 72 Apollo show and then Japan are a hot mess. there's no focus, too many random songs and show tunes, the endless 60s medleys and a real lack of their own material.
I'm surprised that by this point in their career, the girls themselves didn't have more authority on their shows. the old Artist Development program was pretty much long gone by the 70s. Berry wasn't involved so clearly he didn't care. Based on interviews and books, we know J and L wanted to shift their sound, look and approach. Was it mary that didn't want to diverge too far? was it their managers? but you're right, poor decisions and a lack of evolution [[plus motown's lack of heavy support) did them in
Actually i think the MSC group was really out of touch. They were wearing these giant ballgowns that did nothing for their new disco choreography.
With Susaye, things started to get a bit better, but once mary was preg again they pulled out the older sets of gowns that had maternity versions [[the green ones, the zebra print, the huge and overwhelming jesus robes).
I wonder if Marv2 would render his opinion on what derailed them during this time. I think Pedro Ferrer's management of the group was clearly a misstep. Being an expert on all things Mary-related, I wonder if Marv would agree.
Pedro wasn't involved with the Supremes during the time of IGIMTM. I believe mary met pedro in 73 in Puerto Rico. while he certainly made questionable managerial decisions, he was not responsible for any of the problems that occurred while Jean was around
I tend to think there was some hesitation on Mary’s part to change particularly when it came to their image. The Supremes were all about glamour and ditching it all may not have transitioned well. I think it just needed to be reimagined. Someone should have put their foot down when it came to bringing out the 60s gowns. It just didn’t help them especially by the time Scherrie was introduced. As for music, I think Mary was open to whatever worked hence Jimmy Webb, Stevie, disco, etc. Motown was certainly dropping the ball by 1972, but with bringing on Pedro they were finished. Pedro was a torpedo to the boat.
See you guys say that all the time, but that is not how it was at all and you give Pedro Ferrer way too much power in your imaginations of what actually went on. Truth be told [[and that is what I do, hehehehehe) there would have not been any "Supremes" after 1973 had it not been for Mary and Pedro. Motown is the one that pulled resources, etc from the act! I think you guys read the books and mix up too much of Mary Wilson's and Pedro Ferrer personal martial problems in with what went on with the group and business. They were a Motown signed act and Motown was ultimately responsible!
That is my absolute favorite amongst the previously unreleased tracks from the Scherrie years. What a dynamite performance by Scherrie who in my opinion could out sing just about anyone. I liked it when it was just an instrumental track on one of the "Disc-o-Tech" albums and when I heard it vocalized I couldn't believe it had been left in the can either!
Lemme try to steer this thread back before it's closed down but what happened with the Supremes is what happened to a lot of groups once they achieve success for so long, after ten years, your label deserts you for someone new. They did that to Aretha and the Spinners on Atlantic. Ray Charles' career, after nearly ten years of nonstop commercial success, on ABC began fading out by 1968. The Supremes could've try to find a way to salvage the '70s like the Temptations did in releasing cutting-edge music, getting with the times but still maintaining the glamour that helped to make them. The Temptations found a way to evolve better than most vocal groups, why couldn't the Supremes? I'd pick a single better than I Guess I'll Miss the Man first off.
You’re right. It all goes back to direction. I think after the promotion of the Floy Joy material with Lynda’s entrance and seeing how poorly “Your Wonderful Sweet Sweet Love” charted [[should have charted much higher in my book), Motown, the girls, their manager, etc all should have sit down and planned out their next steps. If Jimmy Webb came in with idea to do their next album much like what he would do a few years later for the 5th Dimension on the Earthbound album then I’d say go for it. But the direction that he proposed and its sound was totally wrong for what they needed. By this time a lot of Motown artists, songwriters, and producers were jumping ship. I know Norman Whitfield was getting close to departing, but I have to wonder what he could have brought to the girls’ sound in path of Rose Royce’s “Ooo Boy.” Maybe if the girls paired with Stevie sooner it could have put a little more wind into the sails. I know Motown was against bringing in outside people, but maybe pairing them with Curtis Mayfield could have relit the fire. I know we can’t change the past, but it does make you wonder if it had been done differently what the rest could have been.
i do think you're correct Marv. Mary was the one that pushed for the group beyond 73. and very possibly with Pedro supporting her, it wouldn't have happened. She absolutely was the one that somehow got motown and berry to [[even reluctantly) give them a second chance.
all very interesting ideas. I think also right that there should have been more of a collective effort to sit down and thoughtfully plan the future road map for the group. but i don't know if that's really Mary's strong point - group management. I do think, based on my own opinion and what i've read, she was largely the one grasping onto the older supremes image and could possibly have been the one really hesitant about evolving it too much.
the group needed someone that had a sharp ear and eye towards what trends were emerging in the 70s. music was continuing to diversify and there should have been an opportunity for them to do something unique and worthwhile in the mid 70s. I do think the move in the later 70s to disco was a good one for them and, had some significant problems been erased or solved, the group could have really found a new hit period
I am going to add my two cents on “Bend A Little.” I think the track was HOT. Aggressive and danceable, to be sure. The chorus of “bend a little, give a little, that’s all we gotta doooooo!” good, but I think the verses are weak—both in that they aren’t memorable AND they’re kind of lost in the mix. I can hum the tune, but I can’t tell you the lyrics. Great opportunity with the track, but maybe it was rejected because of the reasons I stated above? Maybe it wasn’t worth writing new lyrics or maybe there was too little time to remix it? I’m glad we have had the track on a few sets in the last 10 years or so. It would’ve been fine on SUPREMES ‘75 as an album cut. I just don’t see it—as is—as the lost answer to the group’s prayers at that time.
As for “Where Is It I Belong,” I like the ballad aspect of it for Mary’s sake. She sounds good, though she’d admittedly had better ballads released between 1970-1977. I think the song needed more lyrical work and maybe a key change at some point modulating up towards the end. Those who want to gripe about the “he was Capricorn and a love was born” lyric should remember that DRATS sang an entire song about astrology and love, so... one line doesn’t ruin the song—just dates it a bit. I don’t think it was intended as a song with single potential, but it’s a good album track.
There were only 10 tracks on the album; it should’ve been filled with 12—and we now know there were still plenty of good songs from recording for this album that were left in the can.
I think The Supremes’ biggest mistake by late 1972 and through mid-1973 was that they went backwards for their shows. As many people have expressed here, they should have sat down, taken a closer look at what was working, what wasn’t, and then moved FORWARD. I love the classic Supremes music, but they were rearranging it so much while still keeping it in the show, that it I’d bet it was losing its appeal to their live audiences. As has been said before, they should have been focusing on featuring full versions of the ‘70s hits and their album cuts. How about a MOTOWN ‘70s HITS medley or group of full songs sung under that idea? There were plenty of good songs from Jackson 5, Marvin, Stevie, Miracles, and even maybe Diana that they could’ve tackled.
Regarding wardrobe choices, I thought there was still a selection of contemporary gowns being used in addition to the late ‘60s DRATS gowns? They had those chocolate brown/black? pantsuits with the with boas and the white bugle bead “fringe” gowns. Plus JMC did several photo sessions with gowns or outfits we didn’t see in photos onstage. I think with their ‘70s outfits, they were pretty contemporary to other groups, such as The Three Degrees. If anything, the other groups of the day were either imitating their basic look or going for a [[my word) sluttier look. The Supremes never were or should’ve have been marketed “slutty,” so that was a smart choice to avoid giant belly cutouts or high side slits. I agree with someone else [[forgive me forgetting who) who basically said their choice of ball gown styles was not smart. Sleek gowns and pantsuits would’ve been better for showing off disco dance choreography. All this said, by 1976/77, all 1960s era gowns should have been OUT of their wardrobe [[and into storage) and they should’ve stuck to any gowns/outfits from 1974 forward. The black velvet/gold brocade/teardrop pearls gowns [[I won’t be giving it some fantastical fake name!) should have been GONE. If they’d had three super-contemporary outfits/gowns to keep rotating through by 1976-77, that could’ve helped. I know all their old [[late 1960s) wardrobe was designer-made and expensive, but that wasn’t enough [[in my opinion) to warrant their continued use through 1977. Imagine 1970 JMC wearing the simple red velvet gowns DMF wore in late 1964? Pretty gowns, but the style was out. By 1976, why was the group still bothering to wear 1969 designs? These were dramatic stage outfits—not classic, simple outfits that could make the transition through the years [[such as a simple Chanel dress).
Yeah, it sounds silly [[even somewhat embarrassing) now, but that was contemporary. Go to a bar/disco in the mid ‘70s and that’s what many people were asking one another to find a connection. I also think of the back of the Vandellas’ “Black Magic” album—each girl had their astrology sign detailed and that was early 1972!
I recall they wore those black pants and silverish blouses on Dinah Shore and I think another show. I always thought they looked good
Luke, I think those continued to work from 1970/71 because they were simple and not overly dated. If they’d had collars that reached down to mid-chest, for example, they would’ve looked dumb by 1975. Using those for years wasn’t a bad choice—especially for a daytime talk show.
agree that Bend A Little wasn't a lost hit. to me, it's generic disco. any group could have sung it and done fine. perfectly fine to include as an album track.
Can We Love Again should have been the Mary ballad on Sup 75. although it could use a little touch up on the choruses, it helps broaden mary's songs. she had done plenty of true ballads up to this point and so something with a little more of a beat would have helped showcase more of her range.
Seed of love was a pretty good track, although the title is a bit touch-in-cheek hehehe
There was ample material to do a solid pop album in early 75
it's all been said
can't stop a girl
color my world
give out
you turn me around
shoop shoop
where is it i belong
seed of love
can we love again
sha la bandit
then they could have done a disco lp, done a little extended remixes and had something like:
he's My man
early morning
this is why
where do i go
I can never recover
Bend a little
dance fever
mr boogie
I know everyone loved “It’s All Been Said Before” and thought it could have hit, but I think “The Sha-La Bandit” had strong potential. It’s a shame it was canned. Around this time there seemed to a little throwback to the late 50s/early 60s sound in songs. “The Sha-La Bandit” had a similar throwback feel with the “sha-la-la’s” and it’s a shame Motown didn’t take notice and give the song a chance.
This one my favorites from that set in 1975. Extended here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9wVwIri6kE
When the Supremes began being produced by Stevie, it was too little too late... I mean it could've worked but Motown never took Stevie's productions outside his own work seriously. We saw the way Syreeta's albums were treated and Stevie put his footprint on them.