Doesn't look like they rehearsed at all. All three women were going through something in 1983.
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Doesn't look like they rehearsed at all. All three women were going through something in 1983.
i believe there were discussions on here [[memory might be failing me) that Mary's original approach to Dreamgirls was to be less sensational. But the publisher and/or collaborator pushed her to amp up the dirt a bit as that was the trend at the time - think Mommie Dearest but within the Sups
Certainly Mary had every right to tell her side of the story in whatever manner she desired. I do feel that the book is very one-sided and does lack a bit of a balanced perspective. of course that's not surprising - most people writing their story would do the same. But the general description of diana includes practically every snipe or diss she ever committed and barely addresses the fact that her voice and showmanship were one of the primary reasons as to why the group shot to super stardom. Now i'm not saying F and M weren't also quite responsible for the success too, especially early on. I absolutely believe that all 3 were very talented entertainers and as such created a truly unique group.
Mary put it best when she once said "the group really started breaking down once outside influences started coming" [[Berry, Tommy). I remember Smokey said that he blames a lot of Flo's downfall on Tommy because he believed he was getting in her ear.
If Flo had lived I don't think she'd have been invited to Motown 25, from the way she talked of Berry in 1975 it sounds like they really had a huge dislike for one another. I feel Flo would have thrived in Broadway or on a sitcom. For some reason I can hear her tearing up the song "Burnin' Love". With Flo and Diana talking again shortly before her death, I do think eventually there would have been a successful reunion of the original group.
Berry was all [[or at least most) of the things everyone has mentioned here but Motown and the Supremes and all of the artists needed a Berry Gordy to help them be successful. Detroit was not the only place on the map that had all this talent in one neighborhood or one place. Ohio, Philly and Chicago had just as much talent and the timing was right in the 60's but we needed a Berry Gordy with that type vision.
So if Florence was still still alive........Again I don't think the Former Ladies of the Supremes would have existed especially with the tag FLOS. [[just my opinion)
Diana first reaction if I remember to Mary about the book was "How dare you write that about our Friend" [[This was Diana's reaction to Mary about the rape). Many years have gone by but that is how I remember her first reaction being. If Florence was still alive then that takes away from the tragic piece of her death and the rape would have never been known because I doubt Flo would have green light that.
NO Dreamgirls - Flo contacted Diana later after the dismissal from the group and so that bond between them stilled existed.
Supreme reunion ?? - naw not the way it came off and not without Flo and Diana sitting down and talking. I think there was a hard wedge between Flo and Berry and I think Suzanne would not have invited her for fear of Flo throwing Berry off the stage.
I loved Flo but its hard to say whether she would have been a BIG MAJOR STAR. I believe she would have made more history but eventually fizzled out because I see Flo as more of a homebody or not one to give 200%. I listen to some of her adlibs on the outtakes of songs and she is sometimes very vocal in regard to "No More" or "Thats it".
^well stated
Berry has faults just like any person. same with D, M, F, etc, etc. I do think he tried to focus on the necessary business decisions and not get too wrapped up in the emotional element. this "product" called the Supremes was in danger of collapsing due to ALL of the internal conflicts. at the end of the day, at the head of the company, he had to make some tough but required decisions. Sure he made some mistakes along the way and also contributed to the situation. But so did Flo. clearly she ended up the worst but she also made her share of errors. they all did
^ This. You beat me to the punch, sup_fan. I agree with captainjames and you.
Oh wow. So Diana was pissed off at Mary for including Flo's rape?! That's why she stopped talking to her?! Would've made sense! Especially if Flo wasn't willing to mention it. I don't think she mentioned it to Peter when they were talking, did she???
She probably didn't care what Mary said about her [[or maybe she did, she's all about image too) but yeah if Florence wasn't ready to talk about the rape incident, that was wrong to bring up then. :/
I don't know how upset Diana could really be about the rape because I believe there are court documents in Detroit on this case. going off of my memory here but i believe Bayou on here mentioned that Flo actually testified in front of her attacker. So technically it's a matter of public record
that said, it could still be a point of taste and level of appropriateness to bring up such a deeply personal story for someone other than yourself
but then given the potential impact it had on Flo and her personal and mental well-being and how she handled the highly stressful work load of a Supreme might have deemed it necessary. all of the books talk about Flo's moodiness and how her personality really controlled how everyone handled her. and with the massively stressful and high-pressure career, it at least provides some explanation as to why she was struggling so much
if Flo were alive today,
... she would've been placed three rows behind Mary Wilson at the Motown 60 taping, seated there to watch Diana Ross still making goo goo eyes at Berry Gordy.:rolleyes::p
hehehehehehehehehe!
Maxine wrote that Flo told her family and days later they found out that the rapist had been beaten up. She says that's the only "justice" Flo got in the situation and makes no mention of the law getting involved. Mary wrote about Flo going to the cops and testifying in court. Only she can say what source she used for this. Maxine's book isn't well put together, and she jumps around so much that it'll make your head spin, but I can't see her devoting any portion of her book to Flo's rape and leave out how brave her sister was for going to the cops and testifying in court, both of which would've been rare for any female during that time, but especially rare for a Black female, and even rarer for a poor Black female. I don't think anything other than street justice happened in this case.
Wow...
So Mary and her sister had different accounts!
Wow...
This was one of the things that confused me when I read Maxine's book. Its quite a leap from saying someone sent their assailant to prison to saying the assailant just received a thorough beat-down.
In a 1986/1987 Players article, Mary was asked something about whether she had received any negative feedback from revealing Flo's rape. I don't remember her entire answer, but she did mention that Flo's family wasn't happy about it.
I have that Players Magazine. Reggie Harding played pro basketball for the Pistons and before that a semi pro team in Toledo. He was still a thug all the while. Robbing people etc. After he was shot and killed, they had a tough time burying him. He was 6'8" and somehow his grave was dug several inches too short! LOL! That held things up a bit.
As a fan and admirer of Flo's work, and thus find Flo an interesting person, I'm glad to have some insight into some of what might have been going on in her mind during the point when her time with the group became so tumultuous. But it boggles my mind that Mary would feel so free to offer this information to the word without at least speaking to the family first and finding out how they might feel about it. Did Flo's daughters even know what happened to her prior to Mary's announcement? I always give Mary credit for not touching the subject of Rhonda's paternity, which I'm sure she was as convinced as a lot of other people and probably had more inside information about Rhonda's bio dad. On the flip I lost a lot of respect for Raynoma when I read that she announced to the world Rhonda's paternity on national tv. How low down and dirty can you be? But Mary should have recognized how sensitive and personal a subject rape is and asked the Ballards for permission to go there. Water under the bridge now of course, as they appear to have forgiven her and moved on.
but i think mary's rationale was that there needed to be the incident in order to tie that to Flo's gradual deterioration and inability to cope with the problems that arose. otherwise it sort of just makes her look like a mental case. It helps to also build the victim story
I might get my head bitten off for this: but I really do believe Flo had an undiagnosed bipolar disorder. The way Mary and Diana have written about her rollercoaster moods and how one minute she'd explode about something then after exploding she'd act like nothing was wrong.
As someone who loves Florence Ballard, I agree she was probably bipolar. It explains her mood swings. Both Diana and Mary wrote that they couldn't deal with her mood swings. You definitely won't get your head bitten off for that. All three women dealt with issues their own way. All three were VERY YOUNG when they became instant superstars in 1964 and dealt with success their own ways. It was harder to deal with for other people [[Flo) than others [[Diana & Mary in their own ways).
Mary must've been put into a pickle though. Especially if she was told to make the bio "more sensational" [[though it's true that Diana was pretty much a hustler and she had the talent to back up that hustling lol). But she probably knew she would get the wrath of some Motown fans, some DR fans and Flo's family. This was 1986 too. Everyone's tea was starting to come out in the '80s. Mommy Dearest had come out in the late 70s and that started many celebrities' relatives and whomever to write books on legendary celebrities.
^exactly midnight - on both of your posts
I don't think there's anything wrong with guessing or suggesting that Flo might have been bipolar or had mental issues. it's not a sin or frankly uncommon. lots of people suffer from that and it's just unfortunate that during the 60s people didn't understand issues of mental health like they do today. Everyone tried to deal with things as best they could and of course, mistakes were sometimes made
And yes, i think just like Call Her Miss Ross, Dreamgirls is a product of it's time. perhaps if the book was written later, it might have been less sensational
I don’t believe a lot of what Mary says. He books are full of lies and incorrect innuendo. I don’t believe she was told to sensationalize it - it was written from wrath and financial need, not coercion. There’s no way any publisher would refuse a Supreme autobiography because it didn’t have enough dirt. Remember this is the same woman who stood outside of Spago in 1989 crying into a TV camera asking “what did I ever do to her?” She’s shameless in this respect. Outing the rape was so wrong - Flo’s kids were teenagers then - they didn’t need any of their moms’s Privacy spread around like that. They could get made fun of at school for having a drunk mom. Kids can be vicious.
Mary just makes up stuff as she chooses. She’s now claiming to have coined “no-hit Supremes” how stupid is that? After years of saying how hurtful it was to be called that, now she’s claiming she made it up! And like many of her lies, it doesn’t make sense. Nobody who is in a group that’s trying to make it while many of those around her are doing better are going to call attention to the fact by coining a phrase like that. It’s absurd. Not that it’s a big deal, but it shows you two things about her character:
1) She’ll say ANYTHING.
2) She’s so into her storytelling and need for approval that she’ll claim ownership of No-hit Supremes when it makes her look idiotic for coining it - let alone bragging about it.
I don't know if it was bipolar. Nothing has been written about Florence having mood swings until about 1966 when everything began to spiral out of control. I'm thinking that her mood swings had something to do with the diet pills she often took during this time. What does seem apparent is that Florence suffered from depression off and on which seems to have kicked in after her rape. When her life got hectic- and the Supremes in 1966 was on an almost entirely different type of schedule than that of the Supremes of 1965- and the drama with Gordy and Ross started up, she started self medicating. Diet pills which cause heavy mood swings, depression kicking in because of the deterioration of her relationships with Gordy and Ross, and then alcohol mixed in just exacerbated all of the problems.
It's hard to diagnose someone years after they're deceased, but Flo's life reads to me like a woman depressed who found herself addicted to alcohol. What bothers me is the comments that are sometimes made that paints this picture of Flo as someone who didn't want to be a singer or didn't want to be a star or a woman who didn't have the drive to put in the work, and the events of 1966-67 are usually what is pointed to in order to back up the claim. But if you know anything about depression, depression often won't allow a person to enjoy what they once enjoyed or be as motivated as they once were. Not because it's not in them, but because the mental condition takes over. Some folks depression is so crippling that they find it hard to get out of bed. Every account of Florence prior to 1966 is a woman who managed to make it to every show, every recording session, every photo session, every interview, same as Diana and Mary, until about 1966, which is when her depression symptoms really seem to ramp up. Then on top of it she becomes an alcoholic. It's difficult to be yourself when you have a mental issue and a substance abuse issue beating on your back. Had Flo gotten psychiatric help as a Supreme or consistently after she left the group, I think her story, both personal and music career, would've been extremely different.
I don't think Flo didn't have the drive. She was very charismatic and charming during those early years especially on those first Hullabaloo and Shindig appearances. I'd say sometime after the Copa is when she starts to look bored and disinterested in the video clips. I believe Flo saw where the group was headed and just decided the hard work wasn't worth it if it wasn't going to benefit the whole group.
Yeah Flo was cool the first two years. By mid 66 though she got tired of it
Hopefully she would have overcome her demons and be living a happy and productive life. But then the Diana-Deniers would have one less illusion in their arsenal.
No the settlement did not come from Berry Gordy. It has been said that it came from a slip and fall lawsuit Flo had. The other story I heard is that it was from a suit against her former attorney Braun. I believe the slip and fall lawsuit is where the money came from. Berry Gordy paid for Florence's funeral.
Well Marv I think the important variable is that she didn’t die in poverty as depicted in many bios of her life. Pvt me for the details if you like. My co worker back in Detroit was friends with Flo until the end. She was a singer in a NYC band that you will be completely familiar with!! Let’s catch up soon.
Right I know about the lawsuit, however I have read as well that there was a last settlement given to her by Motown,plus Tommy was given a job by Berry after Flos death. definately not disputing what you are saying
back to M25....in retrospect, it would have been smarter to have a Supremes reunion with Jean....Up The Ladder/ Stoned Love....Diana could have had her star entrance as she did with Ain't No Mountain and then reunited briefly with Mary and Cindy for Someday We'll Be Together...cant blame MW for being upset...it was supposed to be the grand highlight, and DR decided to minimalize it...it seemed to say "I'm here, that's all that matters"...Look carefully at the footage...DR got lost, Mary picked up the lead, and turned to Diana palm out to hand it back to her. Suzanne should have pulled Diana aside, and enlightened her about the situation, and the pending bad public and professional reputation the change she initiated would cause a bit
A simple act. Berry Gordy when he sold Motown to MCA could have given Florence Ballard's children a small sum.
Sometimes when reading posts here I get the feeling I'm re-experiencing deja vu all over again.
Yes, Ross totally destroyed M25 for ALL of us Supremes fans. And she never apologized. Ross was completely out of touch and out of control.