Certainly this thread has strayed FAARRR from the topic, as threads here usually do. Howwhoevertosay, I'm surprised that it's as contentious as it is. Outta this one!
Certainly this thread has strayed FAARRR from the topic, as threads here usually do. Howwhoevertosay, I'm surprised that it's as contentious as it is. Outta this one!
It’s just a chat - they stray like any conversation
Midnight Johnny who was on here for years has had Louvain Demos on his show for a lengthy interview and she’s on Facebook I’m sure; I’m left with the memory that she feels the Andantes never got their due.
And I’m sure it didn’t do a lot for the confidence and ego’s of the replaced and added to singers
Another interesting question for me personally, what were the relationships between each other ? The Andantes with Mary & Cindy, Roz & Betty or Ann & Kat. Were there harmonized or more a rivalry ?
This is all a non-issue. Most of the group members from these various groups ALSO were assigned to sing background on recordings by other artists like Marvin Gaye, Mary Wells, Barbara McNair, Brenda Holloway, etc. The Andantes were not the only ones to provide harmonies on Motown recordings. That tells me a lot!
That is true...Motown being a "family" type organization, which I've mentioned before... would see singers hanging around and a producer could decide that he wanted to add some voices to a project going on in studio A and recruit singers, musicians, or even support people like hand clappers to come in and help with the session. That said... The Andantes and The Originals tended to be the "go to" guys when formal background voices were needed...
I don’t think there was a rivalry or any animosity. As Mary said when Jimmy Webb used the Blossoms on their recordings, she took it personally against the Supremes and not against the Blossoms. I assume that’s similar to the Andantes. Plus the Andantes in their book speak highly of the groups. I assume they got along and if ever there was any animosity it certainly doesn’t exist today.
Even Tony Orlando and Dawn originally released their first recordings, Candida and the huge hit Knock Three Times [[and an album), as "Dawn" since Tony didnt want to use his own name at the time. The Dawn singers were session singers, including Jay Siegel, formerly lead singer of the Tokens [[The Lion Sleeps Tonight) and the original Jay & The Americans and other groups, along with three east coast based female singers. When the songs became hits, Tony recruited Joyce, Telma, and Pam… even though the original Dawn were different singers... they understood that the record company and producers decided how the group would carry on and with which performers... I don't recall Siegel, Cynthia Weil, Linda November, or Tony Wine complaining [[or the people who bought the records or those who attended their tour shows based on those two other recordings, as everyone got paid for their work...
I don't think anyone else even cares about any of this.....but us! LOL!!!
Part of the reason this is such an issue is that it involved the most successful female group of all time and one of the most successful female singers of all time
As stated,berry would use whom ever was around in those days-contract on love-stevie wonder[i'm sure you can hear the temps in the background]born to love you-temps-[jimmy ruffin joined joined the group on this one]-not now i'll tell you later-temps-[the supremes including diana sang along too]...fraud??? No..music history being made-yes!!
There was no fraud. The Four Tops backed up Stevie, Martha Reeves, The Supremes etc. The Supremes and Vandellas backed up Marvin Gaye, Smokey Robinson and the Miracles, Mary Wells, Barbara McNair, and others. I know Berry Gordy would not have signed any of these folks if they could not sing and sing well. Trying to make a big deal out of what certain producers did with certain recordings is a bit on the ridiculous side if we're being honest here. Heck, Marvin Gaye played the drums on some early sessions. What does that mean? There's no fraud involved here.
I saw the Supremes and 4 Tops a number of times and they were sensational...not an Andante in sight. I would have loved to hear the distinctive voices of Mary and Cindy on Love Child and Someday. Did anyone ever consider those records may have sounded even BETTER?? We loved the groups not the Andantes. It also seemed stupid to me to replace group members on recordings ....Creating ill will as Katherine Anderson has said.
There are several songs that I think would have sounded better with Mary and Cindy such as I'm Living In Shame, The Composer, etc. but with Love Child, I gotta go with the Andantes. Hearing Mary and Cindy perform the song live, I just dont think they sounded great compared to the Andantes. In fact I always thought Love Child live was the worst live rendition of all of the hits.
I agree. I never cared for any live rendition of "Love Child." Mary and Cindy just couldn't seem to get the hang of the pace of the song especially on "Wait, why you wait, now hold on." It always seemed like they were rushing it. They never fully could capture the rhythm and pace of it. It just seems off.
The Andantes were sensational on Love Child. I don’t think no one could have done it better! And the public loved it. Their biggest seller.
You're right and also one thing that bothered me was there were several points of the song where the Andantes would harmonized where Mary and Cindy would sing in unison instead. It seemed sloppy and lazy. You'd think with them not being on the song, they'd try to replicate as best as they could.
I, too, never liked the live version of "Love Child". The tempo is always taken at breakneck speed. It's a wonder that Diana, Mary, or Cindy could ever keep up vocally at that horrendous pace.
I thought this thread was kinda treading old ground yet again, but there's something in this comment that IS kinda new, at least to me. For years, all I'd hear and read was the perception that the Marvelettes were the only female group at Motown to be subbed out by the Andantes. And the reasoning was that their harmonies weren't up to snuff. I always knew that was baloney, but with this thread and many others I've come across here over the years, I thought- AT LAST! People with ears and common sense! At last, it is becoming more and more common knowledge that the same thing happened with nearly as much frequency with The Vandellas and The Supremes. Interesting to read about Cindy and Mary singing singing in unison when performing "Love Child" live...
I too thought this was finished...but let the games carry on. The Motown girl groups succeeded largely on the basis of how they presented themselves before America to compliment the recordings released by the company which moved Motown beyond a regional record company buttonholed largely on the R&B charts... This is why the Philly artists didn't enjoy the widespread acclaim and longevity as did the Motown artists, despite the fact that the Philly product was arguably just as good...just not the same level of crossover acclaim and not as familiar in the mainstream media of television, film, and widespread culture as was the Motown brand...Obviously, the terrific Motown songs and tracks were great, and the identifiable lead singers were easily recognizable and outstanding. That said...with some of the groups, particularly the girl groups... their physical appearance and image [[as evidenced by the close attention from Maxine Powell)was largely what sold them to the American public. Diana Ross on the Ed Sullivan show backed by The Andantes dressed in gowns would not have worked, and some of those songs recorded without the Andantes would not have worked either, at least not as well... The Andante's had the best voices and harmonization's of any of the female singers at Motown by far [[and that includes The Supremes, The Vandellas, and The Marvelettes) and lent high end harmonies to some of the male groups as a balance. Lead singing and background work are two entirely different things. So is recording and performing on stage... At this stage, why anyone would second guess the legendary Motown producers, how they put their projects together, and the undeniable success of their product is puzzling, other than some folks who just don't understand the business and somehow seem insulted that the harsh reality of the music business is not what they perceived or wish to believe... Berry Gordy was in it to make money and succeed with the groups he virtually created and using the names he held the rights to use as he wished to give all the people he was responsible for the greatest chance for success...not to placate the erroneous fantasies from fans as to how the industry is supposed to operate...
You nailed it,Stu.
Stu...you answered that in a nutshell ..pity it wasnt at the top of this thread lol.
Yah Stu !
And many of the fantasies you mention were hatched 40 years after the fact
Thanks guys... Seems pretty obvious what happened going back 60 years with the legacy created. Second guessing just makes no sense to me... Kinda like second guessing Red Auerbach's Celtic teams of the late 50's and 60's... They both did what worked...
Wow. One of the best posts I've ever enjoyed on this site, because it's factual. It's the nature of the business. As I got older and read more and more books, I came to realize pretty much all record companies and producers were doing the same thing. I'm not saying anything else [[I can already feel about 30 paragraphs forming in my mind...) You said what counts.
Amen to that, Stu! No offense to the Vandellas or Marvelletes, but sometimes their voices were a bit too shaky and unpolished for some of the songs! I saw an old video of Martha and the Vandellas singing “My Baby Loves Me” live on YouTube and thought to myself “No wonder they used the Andantes and Four Tops on that one”.
As far as the Supremes are concerned, I always figured the Andantes were involved on their recordings strictly because Mary, Flo, or both were giving HDH fists during sessions and didn’t feel like dealing with them. I guess it was less of a hassle for them to use the Andantes and get on with it.
They wanted a look on stage - and they got that with Mary and Cindy
They wanted a sound on the 45s especially - and they got it with the Andantes
I’m sure they all acted up once in a while - they were basically just a bunch of young people
Exactly... and being dressed in fancy gowns, immaculate hairstyling graced with extensively rehearsed choreography behind a lead singer with a very recognizable voice distracts from background vocals to a large degree [[and on some television appearances, they were undoubtedly accompanied with background vocal tracks)... When listening to a recording on a transistor radio or stereo record player, ONLY the voices are what will be judged, and as you alluded to...The Andantes were the cream of the crop when it came to vocal quality and harmonization... Mary and Flo, [[and later Cindy) were competent background singers...not a highly accomplished vocal unit as were the Andantes, The Sweethearts of Sigma, or The Vincent Sisters and others who complimented recordings in the 60's and 70's... Mary was seen as the great looking Supreme, Flo [[who had a very good solo voice) and fit well with the early ensemble, and of course...Diana, Berry Gordy's hand picked superstar whose voice became synonymous with the Motown Sound...
just want to make sure I'm following this correctly ;
whose voices are being heard here : .....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fFg-2UrUTUc
John, it's Diana Ross and The Andantes. From "Love Child" [[1968) onward, all succeeding Supremes' studio recordings were Diana Ross and The Andantes except for "Someday We'll Be Together" which was Diana Ross and The Waters Sisters. The only exception was the 4 albums by The Supremes & Temptations [[2 studio albums and 2 live albums), all of which contained Mary & Cindy, as well as any Diana Ross & The Supremes live albums which were also Mary Cindy.
[QUOTE=StuBass1;525371]Totally believable. Ringo was really good for what he did...but had his limitations as well... Nothing about substituting musicians for recording sessions that is unusual..
On YouTube Ringo explains that he is left-handed so he plays the drums differently and than a right handed drummer. It is very entertaining- great guy. What are his limitations?
I agree with the flawless assessment provided by Stu..