FIRE DON'T BURN : throwaway lyrics being sung in a throwaway style. Needed a serious rewrite right down to the incorrect title. imo.
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Oh yeah, nothing wrong with slow. However, at this point the album needed to be fire, and the only song on your list that is fire for me is "You Were the One". I love "Baby I Love Your Way", "To Love Again", "We're Always Saying Goodbye", but not for this album. [[I think "To Love" and "Goodbye", along with other cuts, should've been on the Mahogany soundtrack. She should've done a "Mahogany" album, like the other fantastic Black movie soundtracks of the day.)
Can you imagine Diana doing "High Energy"? I really would've loved to hear that.
in an interview she gave during this time, she mentioned that she was recording a lot so that there'd be sufficient material to release while she worked on the Wiz. she said one album would be disco/dance and another would be one to make love to. I actually think she was referring to the Richard Perry album in regards to that later comment but not sure
Around this time, just about everything was being geared in pop music towards disco. while a more standard pop album would have been lovely, i think it would not have been a strong seller. she needed major dance tunes although the above track lists we've all been playing with are hardly qualifying of that label. and even though the Perry album has held up well over time and is a fine cohesive work, it really doesn't have the ultra strong dance material either. When you compare it to the major work the Bee Gees were doing with Saturday Night Fever [[which was release shortly after Baby It's Me) you can see how the Diana material just pales. it's just not dynamic or strong enough
now that said, if she were to do a pop album, i'd have done the following lineup:
Together
Share Some Love
Harmony
Never Say I Don't Love you
Old Funky Rolls
Come Together
Sorry Doesn't Always Make it right
Where did we go wrong
we're always saying goodbye
to love again
also intrigued by the idea of a more "funk" album with Bowen. While she would never have gone as far as Rufus or Parliament, perhaps something a bit more dynamic. I think the title track from Baby It's Me [[especially the remix on the extended BIM set) was hot. Le Lo Li had some potential too
I think "Baby It's Me" is a fantastic and properly funkay track. "Gettin' Ready For Love" is quality disco, smooth and soulful. Both sound like hits to me, not massive but substantial. I would have loved a full-on funk album with Diana though, what about some Stevie-produced funk?? :cool:
Don't ask me about any tracks on Ross I ain't got that one yet :p
Probably that solo “I’ll Keep My Light in My Window” that just surfaced as well.
hmmm you know - i'm just not that excited by Stevie's work. it's fine for him but i've never been overly impressed with what he's done with others
I think the work Rick James did with Teena Marie might be more of the direction for Diana. he would probably have to pull it back even some more but it would have been something new and interesting. had he taken the Diana qualities and added some of his grit and funk, you might have had something totally new and original. in 78 that could have helped her really emerge from the masses
^ lolol i actually like the song.
yeah having a bit more "country" approach to the LTISH album might have helped make it a little less disjointed.
Last Time I Saw Him
Get It all together
Why Play games
Since i don't have you
No one's gonna be a fool forever
Together
I'll be here
love me
behind closed doors
Sorry doesn't always make it right
Funky Old Rolls
You
haha
i have another playlist for LTISH of how i might have done the lp lineup:
Last Time
Get it all together
why play games
since i don't have you
no one's gonna be a fool forever
i'll be here
love me
I heard a love song
stone liberty
you
after the amazing success of Touch Me, i'm surprised Michael Masser wasn't given full production duties for a Diana album. He seems to have quite a bit of material on her around this time:
Sorry
Together
To Love Again
I thought it took
Mahogany
After You
Last time i saw him
No one's gonna be a fool forever
Very interesting mystery Sup. A Masser album as a followup would've seemed like a no brainer. As it is, LTISH just fell flat. Some good songs. In fact I'd go so far as to say there wasn't a bad song on the album. "Turn Around" was a good song but seems out of place on an album that already seems out of place in her catalog, so that's a bad position for a song to be in.:D But the entire album is probably Ross' most boring Motown Part 1 album and it's no surprise it didn't take the industry by storm. Had the final tracklist been tweaked and Diana did more TV, things might have been different.
she made some comments that new producers at motown [[like bob gaudio) were being allowed to test out their work on an established star. see if anything took hold. while that's certainly generous for the producer, it obviously didn't especially help diana.
taken by each producer's work, much of what she was producing would have held it's own, if allowed to developing into a full concept.
Touch me in the AM lp - the released one really is lovely. but they sacrificed To The Baby which i think would have been an amazing album too. and you could have still had a strong Touch lp by swapping the TTB songs with other material that was available at the time.
To the baby - again, this would have been a very strong and long-lasting concept. would have held up well IMO
Last time - i think the Bob work is what's mostly out of place here. the stuff by Ron and Tom fits a bit more with the Michael work. i think it should have been mostly a michael masser lp with a couple others added in.
That's a very interesting bit of information. Thanks!
I just don't see a world where To the Baby would've ever been a success. The critics would've loved it for sure. Diana sounds great, the production is very good, the songs are good listening, but it seems like the kind of album one would release for sale through a catalog special offer or something, not something a mega star would have selling out of stores. What would have been the single? I think only the most die hard of fans at the time would've gone out and bought it and when they told their friends what the subject matter is, that would have halted any future sales.
But I do agree that today the album would've held up well and would probably be regarded as a bonafide classic.
You have a point. Those songs seem to have a better fit. IMO though, the Bob songs are pretty much the only songs on the album that have any "sizzle" to them. [["I Heard a Love Song" is my favorite song on the album and one of my favs by Diana period.) Take them away and the album continues to be a really boring flow. "You" should've been something Diana really got into, but to me the song just kinds of drags along and never builds up into this climactic soulful number where Diana could really kick into high gear. To me she sounds rather bored with it.
Take Bob's songs out [[save them for the Mahogany soundtrack that she should've done every song), spruce up some of the remaining cuts, add a couple of mid tempo tunes and I think the album would've had a chance.
We seem to have moved way off topic here. The thread is supposed to be about Ross78 rather than Last Time I Saw Him. Getting back on topic do we have any official word that this expanded version is in the works or is it all idle speculation?
Yeah, because in Soulful Detroit we always stay on topic, right?:rolleyes: Of course not. We tend to prefer to move with the flow of conversation, and that flow took us to LTISH and I'd like to continue to discuss that one if you don't mind.
In addition to the rather bland song lineup on the album, I think the cover photo was equally as boring, although I guess that would make it an appropriate cover. I figure Motown felt the need to create an album around the title cut, but looking back I wonder if it was a better idea to release at least a second single from TMITM and then after the success of "Last Time I Saw Him", simply make it a single only cut, maybe put it on the greatest hits rather than try to create an album around it?
Touch me in the morning was a far stronger album and I am amazed that only one single was released in the States. Here in the UK we got another top 10 hit in All of my life, but I also felt that We need you could have been a major hit single too. Motown seemingly rushed out another album which was dull bland and boring for the most part.
I'm the guilty one who brought LTISH into the thread.Apologies to Bluebrock.I include Funky and Sorry in my personal [[and short) LTISH playlist. Like I said, I never cared much for that album. I like your idea of LTISH as a single-only release.
I Heard A Love Song is definitely the best cut. [[It's the title of my short playlist). I think it would have been an interesting single release. Not sure how well it would have been received.
Yeah, at least one more single could have been released from TMITM. I wonder about I Won't Last a Day Without You. I know it was the B-side of TMITM single and it was an album track on a 1972 Carpenters LP. But the Carpenters didn't release it as a single until 1974. It maybe could have hit big for Ross for her Pop base, not so much for the rest.
Back to Ross '78: I'm not that excited about an expanded edition. I'll just wait and see. The Greg Wright tracks were the best. Of the possible HDH tracks, I like We Can Never Light That Old Flame. I may be in the minority here, but I like the Ross '78 version of Lovin', Livin', Givin'.
Yeah, I definitely agree. Motown's strategy with the music at this point makes absolutely no sense. Now let's be real about TMITM, it was an excellent long play album, but there isn't much on it that could be considered for single release. The album works so well as a cohesive collection. You all got "All of My Life" and I think that's the best candidate to followup "Morning", but why it wasn't released over here is a mystery. I don't think it had a chance of being anywhere as big or popular as "Touch Me In the Morning", but I think it would have made some noise. I was prepared to disagree with you on "We Need You", but I just played it and I have to agree. If there was a third single to be found, it was this one, although I'm of the impression that if "All" is the second single, "We Need You" wouldn't have done as well as "All".
LTISH the album and single were released on the same day. I didn't realize that. So it wasn't even a case that the album was rushed together due to the success of the single. Makes me even more steadfast in my opinion that the single should've been released without an album unless Motown were going to put more thought into the overall concept.
Not having Diana do every song on the Mahogany soundtrack was another misstep. It gives me goosebumps to think of what she might have done with "My Hero Is My Gun". That track is sick. The black album wouldn't have needed "Theme From Mahogany" if Motown had the good sense to give Mahogany soundtrack the same one artist concept that other Black movie soundtracks were getting at the time. And I get why "Hangover" was rushed out, and agree with that decision, but "It Took a Little Time" should've been re-released to see if there was still any life left in it.
Baby It's Me was screwed from the jump. How does that type of album sit around for an entire month without a single release? And the nonsense of Ross 78 is already well documented in this thread. Gordy may not have been heavily involved on the music side at this point because of his Hollywood dreams, but somebody was still making music decisions at Motown and whoever that was, when it came to Diana Ross and the Supremes, the ball was being dropped left and right.
seems like ROSS 78 keeps getting pushed back.. i think they are holding it back on purpose. damn them at motown universal.
Now this is news to me. I always assumed that the reason "Last a Day" ended up on the album was because it was already a big hit. Had no idea it wasn't a hit until a year later! In that case, I would've gone with it as the second single and then "All of My Life" as the third single. I agree that "Last a Day" would have resonated with her pop audience, but would have only gotten any R&B play because it was Diana Ross, and ultimately could've been a pop hit but only made a dent R&B.
i completely agree that a follow up tune from TMITM should have been released. but i don't know if any of the other tracks are just quite enough. All of my life is a great song but i don't think it builds enough. same with most of the lp tracks. they're perfect for listening to but i think they might have been rather anticlimatic on radio. the choruses are so powerful on Touch Me [[thanks to their ripping off the choruses from Up The Ladder To The Roof lol).
"All of My Life" did well with overseas radio, so it may have done the same in the States. On the other hand, "Last a Day" was a big hit for the Carpenters and as nice as it is, to me it lacks the personality of Ross' version. The Carpenters hit number 11 with it. I'm sure Diana could've beaten that off the heels of the success of "Touch Me" alone.
Not necessarily. Throughout the 70s, whenever Diana had a #1 record, the next release failed to make the Top 10.
BTW: That's not an opinion on the record itself. I love most of the tracks on the TMITM album. But I think as they often did, Motown threw too much product out there. They could have pulled another single or two from TMITM, but then DIANA AND MARVIN came out, followed by the LAST TIME I SAW HIM album and single, all within six months.
My single choices for TMITM:
TMITM
We Need You
Brown Baby/ SavevThe Children 4:59 radio edit by me personally
All Of My Life
I won’t Last A Day
i think LTISH project was the most ill concieved album of her career until Ross 78 - what a stinker from concept to relative failure.
1) it’s unforgivable to issue only one single from her best solo project to date and one that gave her real street cred to her chops. Several strong contenders to follow up and make thus album a classic. UNFORGIVABLE!!!!
2)you don’t follow up the greatest vocal of her career with a novelty song- Masser or not. Good or not, she was truly being respected as an artist and then, ......THIS.
3)you don’t release three new albums in 5.5 months - especially when one is selling like mad and the other needed a lot of attention due to its soft launch. Also, a fourth album had been #1 just 7 months before. That’s a lot of album money for the public to put out one one artist in 8 months. Each project needed to be extremely strong to get pocketbooks open that wide.
4) to follow up a classy, brilliantly concieved album with a hodgepodge of B-sides is just plain stooooopid. Perhaps there was another hit there... some think Stone Liberty, some think I Heard A Love Song, some think Love Me, some think When Will I Come Home To You.........NO ONE but some stoner at Motown thought Sleepin’ would hit. Prolly the same fool that thought Touch and I Guess I’ll Miss The Man would hit.
5) I would have worked TMITM and D&M for a year before any new project
6) I would not name an album “last time I saw him “unless the single had become a top five smash… And even then, using that title to sell an album would lead the public to think that the entire album was going to sound something like that song…… And, how many people, even if they liked the song, would want to buy an entire album in that vein? For this reason, I would not have used that name, unless, there was already another smash single from that album so that the public would know there’s more to it than a novelty song.
7) I cannot do a track listing for a December 73 release because it’s such a bad idea I can’t even pretend. However, in third-quarter 1974, a new single from the forthcoming album “ I thought it took a little time……” where to come out. The tracklist for THAT album:
Side 1:
I thought it took a little time
Love Me
last time I saw him
We’re Always Saying Goodbye
Where did we go wrong
To love again
Side 2:
Stone Liberty
Sorry doesn’t always make it right
Since I don’t have you
I Heard A LovevSong
When will I come home to you
you
nothing could ever get me to put a Together or Funky Rolls on anything besides a latent Lostband Found CD released ten years after my death.
Sometimes I wish Motown had been more selective with releases on Diana Ross, its most iconic female star. In the 70's, the limited output and releases of its iconic male stars, Stevie Wonder and Marvin Gaye, were admittedly limited to their creative whims but that made every album by them an event. This may be unthinkable to some, but I can imagine a Diana Ross 70's album discography without Everything Is Everything, Last Time I Saw Him , Ross[[78). Or even Diana Ross Live at Caesar's Palace. [[gasp!) An Evening with Diana Ross would be the special live showcase it was clearly meant to be.
Your entire post sums up my sentiments exactly MM. What on earth was motowns strategy [[assuming there was one) in releasing such a weak, ill conceived album like LTISH hot on the heels of a classic.
Perhaps it was to show the world that Diana could handle any type of music genre. If so it still does not explain the thinking that made for such a crazy release schedule.
Whatever the reasoning behind it, i believe it was decisions like this that to some extent prevented the music media from viewing Diana as a serious albums artist.
I believe it was Diana herself who pushed for "Sleepin" to be released as a single. Apparently she loved the song to bits. I like the song, but it was probably to dark for pop radio.
There were far superior songs they could have used on this album.. I particularly like "To The Baby" "Part Of You" and Kewpie Doll".........To mention a few.
You have a point. [[Pop chart that is. On the R&B chart during the 70s she did followup her big hits with top 10 placings.) But I think "Last a Day" would have been an exception for this reason: it was so very pop. If you look at Diana's singles during the 70s, very few of them are- what I would describe, anyway- as pop. R&B, R&B/pop, but very few that were just straight pop. "Last Time I Saw Him" and "Theme From Mahogany" are really the only two I would describe as pure pop. [[And no surprise, they were bigger hits with pop audiences too.) While I do think "Last a Day" is more R&B than either of those songs, I think it was pop enough to follow "Touch Me In the Morning" into the top 10. Maybe not number one, but definitely top 10. I can imagine a world where pop radio may not have been breaking turntables to play all of Diana's singles, but I can't see them turning this one down.
I still think EIE gets a bad rap, it's a really good album IMO, but other than that, I agree with you. I really think it's time to except the fact that after Diana Ross left the Supremes, she was an actress first and a singer second, from Gordy's point of view. Even the DRATS years it feels like Gordy's quest to make Diana a screen star, starting with television, took precedence over maintaining consecutive hit singles. "Somethings", "Composer", even "Sign", and I still think following "Love Child" up with "Shame" was lazy and without much thought. These things would have never happened during the Flo years. The days of "only number one hits on the Supremes will be released" was over the minute "In and Out of Love" hit the street.
And then as a solo, it's like Gordy was so focused on Diana the actress, that there wasn't much thought put into the music side. Look at the Everything Is Everything vs Surrender debacle. EIE was released without a single and then a month later Motown is releasing the first of three singles from Surrender, before finally releasing a single from EIE. What in the everlasting hell was going on there? Apparently she did very little television. [[Did she ever perform "Surrender" or "Reach Out I'll Be There" or "I'm Still Waiting" on TV?) TV had already proven itself to be a great asset in marketing releases by big artists, the Supremes being a great example of that, so why no Ross on TV? [[I know she was pregnant during this time, so I can imagine a limited schedule, but come on!) Motown just wasn't taking the care it should have with Diana's music. So it's interesting to note that during the 70s Diana Ross was probably the biggest African American star in the world, yet her single releases were hit and miss and her albums were rarely considered competition. She was extremely popular. No reason her discography during that time isn't listed as huge hit after huge hit consecutively...had Motown taken the care needed to make it so.
The public was waiting, that's for sure.
I love "Sleepin" and Diana's performance of it. Very well done and excellent contribution to that dull ass album. But horrible, horrible, HORRIBLE choice for a single. The song was dark, very dark, but if you go for dark as a single, it kind of has to be masked by something else. There was no something else with this song. Radio was never going to get behind it. But just as a song, I love it.
motown's strategy was profit. pure and simple. they were not really looking to create only indelible classics. they were into pushing product to the public and getting them to buy it. examples:
1. often the lp version of a hit song was different from the single version. this was done purely to get rabid fans to buy both and make more money
2. they absolutely DID release garbage during the MFD years. Liverpool was nothing more than a crass attempt to cash in. very little care was given to really treating the british tunes with any respect. these all seem to be 1-take wonders. CW&P is also boarderline. while it does contain some strong 3-part harmonies it was done to replicate Ray Charles' groundbreaking Modern Sounds in Country & Western Music. his was amazing. the girls' was not. Sam Cooke also seems very rushed but certainly better than the previous two.
3. motown had long been in the habit of massive volumes of releases on the girls. look at late 68 - Love Child single, Love Child lp, I'm gonna make you love me, Join the Temps, Live at Talk of town, Funny Girl, TCB. all of these we released in a 5 month period
As fans we've obviously grown to love the girls and their work. we can appreciate their artistic growth through the years and can overlook some things that aren't stellar because of our adoration. But back in the day no one knew how long things would last. they had no idea if public tastes would shift and suddenly the money is gone. they wanted money so strike while things are hot