Reflections lp - a discussion

ok - there have been a few toxic threads on here again. so trying to help shift the discussions back to what's really important. THE MUSIC!!

so what are your thoughts on the Reflections lp? while we don't have the Expanded Edition [[yet) there's no reason not to go ahead and discuss

IMO there's a lot going on. Maybe too much. HDH and Flo had left, the girls had just ventured out into a new sound with the title track, sort of a motown version of the psychedelic/San Fran sound. In And Out Of Love was then a motown interpretation of the "LA/California Sound." lots of filler too

I think it is a nice album but not really special. Aside from the singles, there are some fine tracks in I'M GONNA MAKE IT and BAH-BAH-BAH.

But starting with Side 2, I find the album a bit boring. Diana's lifeless vocal on WHAT THE WORLD NEEDS NOW make me wonder why Motown actually considered releasing it as a single. It is barely good enough for album filler. UP, UP, AND AWAY is ok, as is LOVE MAKES ME DO FOOLISH THINGS. But I feel no spark. The version of THEN here pales next to their duet version with the Tempts. There's a bit more life with MISERY MAKES ITS HOME IN MY HEART and ODE TO BILLIE JOE. But in the end, I find the album lacking.

I liked side 1 a lot but side 2 is ..... lackluster at time. What the World Needs sounds like a demo. up up and away is lifeless. Suddenly there is no Motown sound.
Where was The Happening which I would prefer in place of one of the above.
Ode To Billie Jo. Why??? Think they should sing their own material. Side 2 was disapointing

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by daviddh

I liked side 1 a lot but side 2 is ..... lackluster at time. What the World Needs sounds like a demo. up up and away is lifeless. Suddenly there is no Motown sound.
Where was The Happening which I would prefer in place of one of the above.
Ode To Billie Jo. Why??? Think they should sing their own material. Side 2 was disapointing

---

I do often wonder that if Florence wasn't fired from the group and everything else that was going on, if the Supremes would have recorded more original recordings in 1967. Recording wise there really wasn't much. There was the Disney songs, The Happening, It's Going All The Way [[To True, True Love), Reflections, In And Out Of Love, Forever Came Today, I'm Gonna Make It, I Cant Make It Alone, Bah, Bah, Bah, Up, Up And Away, Love [[Makes Me Do Foolish Things, Then, Ode To Billie Joe, Stay In My Lonely Arms, Heaven Must Have Sent You and Treat Me Nice John Henry. 10 of those songs were original recordings.

Years of collecting Motown gives a certain perspective on how things developed through the years there. I've always thought after 1966, some of the best albums and recordings were done by the artists who weren't a company priority. What I mean by that is, the pressure wasn't on these artists to maintain a high public profile, so they didn't have to be concerned with recording things that were supposed to be "relevant", hip or trendy. They were given material that just got down to business- a good song with great music. As far as The Supremes...

The stakes were unbelievably high with The Supremes, and to a lesser degree, the Four Tops and Temptations, but The Supremes were THE Blue Chip group. After A-Go Go, music had started to change. It was no longer enough to just record good songs. A group that mattered had to record relevant material. It had to make "A STATEMENT." This is why you'll rarely read about any albums by artists like Lesley Gore, The Four Seasons or any number of soul groups in Rolling Stone. The Rock establishment only recognized cutting-edge artists who recording cutting-edge music. With that in mind, at some point, Motown felt The Supremes had to start releasing albums of substance and weight. When you get to that point, you start loading albums either with things of substance, or what you believe to be things of substance- which ends up being pure dreck or misguided, overblown, horrific serious covers.

The Supremes albums up to Reflections were good because they weren't trying so hard to be important. This is why, I'll choose albums by The Marvelettes, Chris Clark, Shorty Long, The Monitors, The Spinners and others over just about any albums by The Supremes beginning with the Reflections album. Nobody was expecting all these other artists to be relevant, so their albums were usually stocked with nothing more than good, solid Motown Sound material. Infinitely more enjoyable than covers of soppy, weighty statements of brotherhood and reflections of new trends in music. Just give me some more of that good old rock 'n' roll music, please.

Reflections, to me suffers because there are good songs on it, but because now The Supremes had to be trendy, Motown was trying super hard to make them sound trendy. "What The World Needs Now" was a good song- when Jackie DeShannon did it. Hers is about the only version I'll ever have the stomach for. The song borders dangerously on being sappy, but somehow Jackie made it work. The Supremes version is just generic and the fact that it was recorded in L.A. didn't really help either. There's nothing special about this version.

That's another thing; a lot of things were done in L.A. and sometimes it worked; "I Can't Make It Alone" is actually a very good song that I never paid attention to I read a thread years ago about the Reflections album. "Forever Came Today" is good too, but I could never put my finger on why I always felt there was something it lacked. "Forever" is a song I had to learn to love.Even now, it's a song that I appreciate more than love.
There are moments-"Bah-Bah-Bah", "I'm Gonna Make It", "Then", "Misery Makes Its Home My Heart" [[stereo version, meh, mono version, MUCH stronger). I think what hurt the album is that the good moments were weakened by there being so many weak songs on it. There is a LOT of good Motown Sound recordings from the Reflections time line that were canned. Had more of those songs found their way onto the album, it would have made it much stronger and enjoyable, but alas, they weren't trend-setting songs- just good songs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by daviddh

I liked side 1 a lot but side 2 is ..... lackluster at time. What the World Needs sounds like a demo. up up and away is lifeless. Suddenly there is no Motown sound.
Where was The Happening which I would prefer in place of one of the above.
Ode To Billie Jo. Why??? Think they should sing their own material. Side 2 was disapointing

---

I agree. They should have used a couple of original songs on side 2 and binned the lacklustre covers. Side 1 was pretty good. An expanded version could be interesting.

I remember being really disappointed when I first heard this album. As someone else above said, I had loved every Supremes album leading up to this but this is the first one where I found myself bored listening to it. I know a lot of people like Bah-bah-bah but I find it to be a dull song and always thought the title was strange. I was also never too crazy about Reflections, the song itself.

I liked the sound of Reflections with it's beeps and special effects.i would have wanted to expand that a bit with several other songs on the lp

I agree with a lot of comments in the above posts. Not as good as the previous albums.
Side 1 is pretty good. Reflections was a stunning single, but the other two were the first Supremes singles that disappointed me. I think a better final version of Forever Came Today should have followed-up Reflections.
I really like I Can't Make It Alone [[beautiful song, love the strings) and Bah-Bah-Bah. The two Smokey songs on Side 2 are also standouts. Love Makes Me Do Foolish Things is the only cover song [[besides Then) that works, for me.

Thank you, sup-fan, for this thread. I get weary of threads like Randy Taraborelli and Flo's last day as a Supreme. I'd rather not see what gets posted in them. My leisure time is precious the older I get. :rolleyes:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by floyjoy678

I remember being really disappointed when I first heard this album. As someone else above said, I had loved every Supremes album leading up to this but this is the first one where I found myself bored listening to it. I know a lot of people like Bah-bah-bah but I find it to be a dull song and always thought the title was strange. I was also never too crazy about Reflections, the song itself.

---

I'm chuckling because until I read what you thought of Bah-bah-bah, I forgot that at first, that song puzzled me. I didn't like it at all. It was just odd. Then, for whatever reason, out of the blue, the oddness of it just grabbed me. I won't go so far as to say it's a favorite, but I do like its weirdly moody feeling because it's just so strange hearing a group like The Sups doing something this heavy.

With the exception of “In And Out Of Love,” side one has a great psychedelic vibe that flows well. If Motown kept the feeling going on side two, I think Reflections could have been a very strong album. It’s a shame Deke Richards didn’t complete “The Beginning Of The End Of Love” in time because it fits right in. Unfortunately the lack of studio recordings in 1967 didn’t provide much for Motown to choose from to complete a strong side two thus why they picked outtakes from the A’ Go-Go timeline. It’s puzzling though they didn’t use “Heaven Must Have Sent You,” “Stay In My Lonely Arms,” and “Treat Me Nice John Henry.” All three are much stronger than the covers chosen for side two. I’m still puzzled as to why Motown considered releasing “What The World Needs Now Is Love” as a single. If Motown wanted to get one more HDH single out on the Supremes, I would have picked “Heaven Must Have Sent You” or “I Can’t Make It Alone.” They certainly could have given Smokey a chance at an A-side with “Treat Me Nice John Henry.”

I enjoy the Reflections album. It’s certainly an album of musical change for them. Their last with Flo, their first with Cindy, their last with HDH, their first with other producers filling in HDH void.

I think Diana's vocal on "Love Makes Me Do Foolish Things is stunning. She really steps up to the mark on this one. Also love her vocal on ode to Bille Joe", She always sounds great when singing. in a lower key.... Ditch "What The World needs Now" and "Up Up And Away". Replace those songs with "It's going All The Way" and "John Henry" and you have a great album.
Perhaps motowns reasoning was that by including those MOR covers it would widen the Supremes appeal...............Wrong.

^i agree. for the most part, i haven't paid too much attention to this song. but it's a beautiful cover. they didn't attempt to change up the original all that much, which is good. Diana really sings and commits to the lyric, gorgeous lush instrumentation

I agree that this album is a bit of a hodge podge. In hindsight, i think there was an opportunity to do something here. As people above have noted, music was really changing by 67 and a significant driver of that change was California. the new psychedelic sounds coming out of San Fran and the Sunshine/CA/LA pop coming out of Los Angeles. having motown reinterpret these trends could have made for an exciting experiment for the girls. Add a little chocolate to the California pop :)

Most of Side 1 seems to work for me. At first i was completely baffled by the inclusion of In and Out and the Up Up Away cover. but now understanding that's the "LA" sound, i've reconciled that a bit. Some of the side 1 tracks though feel unfinished to me. I'm Gonna Make It seems like more of a Diana demo vocal. And Forever is an interesting song but so complex. practically impossible to hum along or whistle too which is part of the reason i think it failed as a single

While there doesn't appear to be a ton of potential other tracks for the lp, i think A Little Breeze, Am I Asking Too Much, Going all the way could have helped make it a bit better

Not a fan of this album. It isn't bad, it's just...usually not worth my time to sit through from start to finish. I dig the singles, after those the only songs I ever make a point to hear is "I Can't Make It Alone", "Bah Bah Bah" and "Love".

"What the World Needs" is dreadful. Diana sounds bored, Flo and Mary sound even more bored than Diana, the band is ready to go home...it's a train wreck cover.

I have grown to appreciate a bit more their version of "Up, Up and Away", even though I hate the original. I like the way Diana sounds on it.

"Ode to Billy Joe" suffers from the decision not to have Diana sing in her lower register. Diana's low place lends itself very well to a melancholy mood, which would've been perfect for such a dark song. Instead the tone she's using doesn't bring out any of the darkness of the song. She might as well be singing "Baby Love". What should have been a highlight of the set turns out a low light for my taste. I also think the song may have been better suited to Mary's talents.

Reflections ultimately proved a dud in their catalog, IMO. I think Motown may have noticed it [[too late for the album) because they pulled out the stops for the Love Child album, which for me is song for song the best DRATS album.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bradsupremes

If Motown wanted to get one more HDH single out on the Supremes, I would have picked “Heaven Must Have Sent You” or “I Can’t Make It Alone.” They certainly could have given Smokey a chance at an A-side with “Treat Me Nice John Henry.”

---

"Make It Alone" could've had single potential. Not number one, but it might have gone top 10. While I like the Supremes version of "Heaven", the track is missing everything that made the original by the Elgins such a classic. I would've made it an album track though.

i don't know that Heaven would have really fit all that well onto the Reflections lp. Had they done the Some Things You Never Get Used To album, it would have fit well there. and in Randy's last book, he lists the proposed STYNGUT song line up which includes it. it's much more pop and more traditionally "motown."

As for the Love Child lp, i think that the songs are strong but as an album it's just as haphazard as the rest of the DRATS output. The first four songs are SO much heavier than the rest of the material. you have this concentrated zone of gloom and doom and then later you singing about about a sunny boy wearing anything from silk to corduroy [[or even mohair). Perhaps if they'd separated the heavier songs more across the list it might have flowed better.

i always thought Forever Came Today was unfinished as a single. the first Supremes single not to wow me and fall flat.
i also agree that Beginning Of The End Of Love would hve fit well here. i do like Then but then they rerecord it on Join. a waste. sound slike this lp was a last minute release until Love Child was finished. there was enough out takes to make this better. this is the first studio set to really fall short [[imo)

I think "Reflections" ultimately suffers from a bad B-Side more than anything else. I have an alternate playlist for the album, which works out time wise if you push the album's release date back by a couple of weeks.

1. The Beginning of the End of Love
2. Heaven Must Have Sent You
3. The Nitty Gritty
4. Then
5. Stay In My Lonely Arms
6. What Becomes of the Brokenhearted

Regardless of what songs we might all choose, this could have been one of the group's strongest albums with a more cohesive B-Side.

The thing that stands out the most for me when discussing the Reflections album is the change in Diana's voice. It was hinted at on the R&H album, but on the Reflections album the timbre of her voice has changed There is more depth and the sound is softer and more rounded then on previous albums. A more mature sound. It's amazing how quickly her voice developed. in such a short time span. From Baby Love to Reflections through to Lady Sings The Blues..........Wow.

The Reflections album, as issued, was somewhat disappointing. Side One, excepting In L& Out Of Love, was fine, but most of Side Two was a mix of styles, not a statement or part of the experience, mood or theme. So, like others on this board, I envisioned a more consistent release, one that would be issued as a double album utilizing songs left over from prior projects as well as contemporary recordings that struck similar tones.

For instance, the instrumental break in Too Much A Little Too Soon seems directly related to that in I Can’t Make It Alone. Instrumentally and thematically, Am I Asking Too Much Here and The Beginning Of The End Of Love also feel of a piece with the title song. The background vocals of Bah-Bah-Bah and Let The Music Play at times sound akin to one another. The exuberance of It’s Going All The Way [[To True, True Love” is a natural next step after the elation of Forever Came Today, and the bouncing staccato rhythms of Misery Makes Its Home In My Heart connects The Happening and eases the transition to the lyrics and the moodier sounds of both Too Much A Little Too Soon and the other Reflections cuts.

Here, then, is my sequenced version of what might have been:

DISC ONE
Reflections coda – just the hard finish from 3:02 on the #1s CD
Forever Came Today
It’s Going All The Way [[To True, True Love)
The Happening – the extended version
Misery Makes Its Home In My Heart
Too Much A Little Too Soon
Am I Asking Too Much
Bah-Bah-Bah
The Beginning Of The End Of Love
I Can’t Make It Alone
Let The Music Play
I’m Gonna Make It [[I Will Wait For You)
Reflections


DISC TWO
Some Things You Never Get Used To
Then
In & Out Of Love
A Little Breeze
Blowin’ In The Wind
Ode To Billie Joe
Believe In Me
Don’t Let True Love Die
Our Day Will Come
Strangers In The Night
More – the studio version
Reflections – the Hollywood Palace live performance

Note that I do have a few slight disappointments, even with this “perfect” line-up.

Forever Came Today had two faults. The background vocals were indecipherable, and while they sounded vaguely modish, like the backgrounds on some Beatles’ songs such as Rain, they were not slightly innovative backward-played tapes, they were just muddy, not intriguingly mysterious . Too, one redundant lyric [[“Love has shined on me with an everlasting love) should have been “you have shined on me…” with the you being “Happiness,” to whom the first part of that verse was addressed. Had those problems and perhaps a few other minor flaws been corrected, the single would have sounded like a finished project rather than a first draft. Nonetheless, at the time, I enjoyed singing this song in the shower.

Some Things You Never Get Used To was a somewhat nothing song, relative to the group’s previous strong string of singles, and its album version was a missed opportunity, in part because the song never fit into the Love Child album and in part because it offered a chance to demonstrate an up-to-the-minute . In the hands of a skilled executive producer, the addition of some Holland-Dozier-Holland magic could have salvaged this Ashford & Simpson cut and would have made the shift to the group’s new directions more emphatic, showing that the group could adapt and endure.

What I imagine is this: at the pause 1:48 into Some Things You Never Get Used To, there could have been an insert, in keeping with the psychedelic dynamic of the Reflections theme. First, the phrase “where did our love go” would have appeared on a loop. This could have come from one speaker only and at a slightly lower volume than the song it interrupts and expands upon. After four repetitions of this phrase, which would continue, the verse “reflections of the way life used to be; reflections of the love you took from me; into you I put all my faith and trust; right before my eyes my world has turned to dust” would float in from the other speaker, again at a lower volume, after which one or two final repetitions of the “where did our love go” phrase would play out before, suddenly, the concluding chorus of Some Things You Never Get Used To would burst in at full volume once more, really popping and taking the single home in style.

Diana Ross got the live version of Reflections right only once, at Hollywood Palace. In the seventh phrase after the instrumental break, she sang, correctly, “reflects the love that used to be.” In all other live versions I’ve heard, at this point she sings “reflects the hurt that used to be,” which is nonsensical, and it mars my enjoyment of the performance of what I think of as the best of the group’s singles. Also, having a live version of this song as part of the two-disc set would both serve as nice a bookend to the two-disc set, along with the insertion of the coda at the beginning of the first disc, and it would prove yet again that the group did not need to rely on studio tricks and sound effects to make a record a hit; the song has an inherent gentle muscularity and sensuality built in, and generally the group knew how to work with its material.

Of course, if the two discs had been issued as separate albums, the live version of Reflections could have been dropped and Up, Up &Away could have been inserted after In & Out Of Love. I would not have included most of the unreleased Motown covers, especially Stay In My Lonely Arms, which dragged on in both the group’s recording and The Four Tops’ recording, and Heaven Must Have Sent You, which lacked sincerity as the group raced through it and which was ideal and unimprovable in the hands of The Elgins.

wow - very ambitious to go with a double lp for reflections! very interesting! I wonder if HDH had stayed with motown and continued to be innovative if they ever would have done a 2-lp studio set with the girls.

in order to pull it off, i think there would have had to been a much stronger selection of songs. i don't personally think the vaulted material warranted it

reflections side 2
the happening
what the world needs now[[the Go Go remix)
then
misery makes its home
beginning of the end of love
let the music play

i need to hear some of the out takes again but i dont recall hearing anything better ,maybe Nitty Gritty in place of Then

^ Hey, I like this Side 2. Much better.

Nitty Gritty might have also worked on the more "serious" Love Child lp. one that consisted of mostly serious and socially-conscience songs. I realize NG doesn't really fall into those specific categories. But you need some variety on the lp - different moods and tempos. otherwise its just one long snooze. i did a playlist for LC and also included In the Evening Of Our Love and Ain't no Sun. Both are rather sad songs of love lost but the tempos and tracks are exciting

I've always liked the Reflections album. I don't think I would change a thing about it.

It occurred to me a few months ago that the appeal to the teenage me [[18 at the time) was that Side 1 contained the hits and new Motown songs. Side 2 contained Pop hits and other Motown songs all similar in style. The Pop songs, relegated to Side 2, didn't contaminate my Motown-fix on Side 1. That's the way I like it. I find it to be an enjoyable Pop album.

When this album was released it had been about 15 months since HDH was released. The good songs on HDH are many times better than the good songs on Reflections but the bad songs on HDH are worse than the weakest songs on Reflections, imo. I find HDH to be uneven in song presentation. Reflections flows better and is much more enjoyable to listen to. Love Child which followed Reflections is much better all around. The Let The Sunshine In album is similar to Reflections as a Pop release but pales in comparison.

Let The Sunshine and Cream of The Crop could of been combined together to make a better album. I hated Sunshine ...even the cover art. I think there was three good songs on it.just sounded like a bland white wash of songs.the album doesn't even sound like the Funk Brothers or have any kind of Motown feel. Who thought including the dreadful Let the Sunshine in was a good idea.

[QUOTE=daviddh;524498]reflections side 2
the happening
what the world needs now[[the Go Go remix)
then
misery makes its home
beginning of the end of love
let the music play

i need to hear some of the out takes again but i dont recall hearing anything better ,maybe Nitty Gritty in place of Then[/QUOTE...or maybe Heaven Must Sent You ...if it were tweaked]

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sup_fan

ok - there have been a few toxic threads on here again. so trying to help shift the discussions back to what's really important. THE MUSIC!!

so what are your thoughts on the Reflections lp? while we don't have the Expanded Edition [[yet) there's no reason not to go ahead and discuss

IMO there's a lot going on. Maybe too much. HDH and Flo had left, the girls had just ventured out into a new sound with the title track, sort of a motown version of the psychedelic/San Fran sound. In And Out Of Love was then a motown interpretation of the "LA/California Sound." lots of filler too

---

This album, "Reflections" was a good album. I still have an original copy of it. It was good for the it's time. I don't think I've listen to it twice since the 70s even,but when it came out in the 60s, my Mom played it quite a bit so we knew the songs just from hearing them around the house.

if i was exec producer for this album back in the day, i would have used it as a showcased for "how motown interprets the CA sounds"

Side 1
Reflections
I'm gonna make it
i can't make it alone
in and out of love
can't shake it loose
ode to billie joe

Side 2
Forever came today
it's going all the way
up up and away
am i asking too much
a little breeze
bah bah bah

most of side 1 is the psychedelic soul sound while most of side 2 is the sunshine/LA pop. but you have a couple tunes swapped onto the other side. In and out [[sunshine) is on side 1 and Forever and Am i asking [[psych) are on side 2

I LOVED side 1...Reflections is still my top 10 Sup's songs. perhaps 3rd behind Someday We'll Be Togther and Where Did Our Love Go....I absolutely love I'm Gonna Make It and I Cant Make it Alone....more than the 2 other singles...but the bridge seems to be out of place In the first song, and the mix is rough on the 2nd....as said BAH BAH is haunting and pulls you in after you get over the shock...I would have used the alternate title...who wants to say "Hey, lets play BAH BAH BAH? the 2nd side is a let down....I don't like WTWNN, UU&A or Misery at all....the other 3 I can live with....even DR's Billy Joe solo.....In and Out of Love is the one single I prefer the faster live version....DR turns a very drifty lackluster song into a fine and swinging show piece on Talk Of The Town