HDH and Invictus/Hot Wax

I have always been a huge fan of HDH, and I was as excited to see a new composition/production by HDH as I was for a new release by the Supremes or Four Tops. Towards the end of their time at Motown, I thought their productions got more intricate, different, and very interesting [[Reflections, Forever Came Today, 7 Rooms of Gloom, Bernadette). After they left Motown, I anxiously awaited their new productions at Invictus / Hot Wax. While I liked them and dutifully bought the albums of Chairmen of the Board and Freda Payne, to me, there was something missing from these new compositions and productions. They did not seem as innovative and did not seem to have the punch that their productions had at Motown. I am not sure what it was, the acts were good, the musicians in many instances were the same, yet something seemed to be missing.

Just curious to hear what other people think?

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Originally Posted by mofreaktown

I have always been a huge fan of HDH, and I was as excited to see a new composition/production by HDH as I was for a new release by the Supremes or Four Tops. Towards the end of their time at Motown, I thought their productions got more intricate, different, and very interesting [[Reflections, Forever Came Today, 7 Rooms of Gloom, Bernadette). After they left Motown, I anxiously awaited their new productions at Invictus / Hot Wax. While I liked them and dutifully bought the albums of Chairmen of the Board and Freda Payne, to me, there was something missing from these new compositions and productions. They did not seem as innovative and did not seem to have the punch that their productions had at Motown. I am not sure what it was, the acts were good, the musicians in many instances were the same, yet something seemed to be missing.

Just curious to hear what other people think?

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Hmmm - Well, I was and am a big Invictus/Hot Wax fan. I was a Motown fan but at the time did not really follow producers so I admit I was buying I/HW releases because I just loved them! I didn't experience the 'something missing' aspect; I think they were a great label. Love my Laura Lee!

What I missed most were the Funk Brothers and Hitsville engineers. I felt the actual arrangements were okay. The Hot Wax/Invictus tracks all seemed to lack a depth of sound in the mixes, and also lacked the likes of James Jamerson and Mike Terry. There was just something missing.

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Originally Posted by mofreaktown

I have always been a huge fan of HDH, and I was as excited to see a new composition/production by HDH as I was for a new release by the Supremes or Four Tops. Towards the end of their time at Motown, I thought their productions got more intricate, different, and very interesting [[Reflections, Forever Came Today, 7 Rooms of Gloom, Bernadette). After they left Motown, I anxiously awaited their new productions at Invictus / Hot Wax. While I liked them and dutifully bought the albums of Chairmen of the Board and Freda Payne, to me, there was something missing from these new compositions and productions. They did not seem as innovative and did not seem to have the punch that their productions had at Motown. I am not sure what it was, the acts were good, the musicians in many instances were the same, yet something seemed to be missing.

Just curious to hear what other people think?

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They did not have the Funk Brothers. Their contributions to the "Motown Sound" was so underestimated. They also did not have Motown recording /sound engineers etc. So many people fail to realize that the greatness of Motown's recordings was through the effort of a conglomerate of people. With any of those elements missing, it will not have that umpf or whatever you came to expect coming through your speakers. That's why I find it impossible to give one person all the credit for the success of those Motown records.

Marv is exactly right. The Motown Sound was a collaboration and that's what you heard when a Motown record was played. Removing any of the Motown elements and you don't get the sound. It was impossible for HDH to recapture that at Invictus, even when using the Funk Brothers.

With that being said, I think the stuff they were doing at Invictus was right in line with the innovations HDH were getting into toward the end of their Motown days. I never listen to any of it and think something is missing.

In a similar HDH presentation, I bought several years ago The Music Merchant Story CD for next to nothing. I was unfamiliar with MM because I concentrated on buying Invictus and Hot Wax 45's. The CD includes 22 songs digitally remastered and featured The Jones Girls, Smith Connection, Brenda Holloway [[Some Quiet Place), Brotherly Love, Eloise Laws, and the Just Brothers. Although there were no songs in the collection that would sell and sound like a million, it was a very enjoyable collection and I really liked the vast majority of them. I had never heard of the Music Merchant label. I think this was towards the end of the Invictus/Hot Wax era.

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Originally Posted by RanRan79

Marv is exactly right. The Motown Sound was a collaboration and that's what you heard when a Motown record was played. Removing any of the Motown elements and you don't get the sound. It was impossible for HDH to recapture that at Invictus, even when using the Funk Brothers.

With that being said, I think the stuff they were doing at Invictus was right in line with the innovations HDH were getting into toward the end of their Motown days. I never listen to any of it and think something is missing.

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Add to that the fact that just about everything Invictus/Hot Wax released received considerable airplay in Detroit/Windsor/Toledo that it began to have it's own consistent sound. Powerhouse stations like CKLW the Big 8 broke a lot of Motown records first and they did the same for Invictus. Those records became very popular in the region.

Very interesting thread and great points though when I listen to Pay it to the Piper and Gimme just a little more time they sound sublime but I agree per the Funk Bros. For some reason Band Gold and Wants Ads never did much for me. Maybe for reasons noted above. Wasn't Music Merchant another HDH label? I remember hearing the Brenda release though and being very disappointed.

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Originally Posted by luke

Very interesting thread and great points though when I listen to Pay it to the Piper and Gimme just a little more time they sound sublime but I agree per the Funk Bros. For some reason Band Gold and Wants Ads never did much for me. Maybe for reasons noted above. Wasn't Music Merchant another HDH label? I remember hearing the Brenda release though and being very disappointed.

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It's been said [[I don't know how true it is) that HDH pursued Motown "sound-a-like" artists for their label. For instance General Johnson was supposed to have a similar sound to Levi of the Four Tops, Freda was to provide a "pseudo-Supremes" sound and on and on and on. I personally did not think they sounded like one another.

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Originally Posted by woodward

In a similar HDH presentation, I bought several years ago The Music Merchant Story CD for next to nothing. I was unfamiliar with MM because I concentrated on buying Invictus and Hot Wax 45's. The CD includes 22 songs digitally remastered and featured The Jones Girls, Smith Connection, Brenda Holloway [[Some Quiet Place), Brotherly Love, Eloise Laws, and the Just Brothers. Although there were no songs in the collection that would sell and sound like a million, it was a very enjoyable collection and I really liked the vast majority of them. I had never heard of the Music Merchant label. I think this was towards the end of the Invictus/Hot Wax era.

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Smith Connection and Eloise Laws cut some great stuff IMO.

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Originally Posted by luke

I remember hearing the Brenda release though and being very disappointed.

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Same here Luke.

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Originally Posted by marv2

It's been said [[I don't know how true it is) that HDH pursued Motown "sound-a-like" artists for their label. For instance General Johnson was supposed to have a similar sound to Levi of the Four Tops, Freda was to provide a "pseudo-Supremes" sound and on and on and on. I personally did not think they sounded like one another.

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I can believe that. I can't imagine that anyone would leave Motown to create their own label and not try to recreate the magic. I can hear some similarities between the General and Levi, but I don't think anyone would mistake them for each other. Not sure who Freda was supposed to sound like, but I could see HDH grooming her as their version of Ross. I think Freda had the goods. I'm amazed she isn't widely known beyond her two biggest hits.

I think she's made a name for herself as a jazz/cabaret chanteuse.

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Originally Posted by luke

I think she's made a name for herself as a jazz/cabaret chanteuse.

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I have an album of Freda's from 1964 which was quite good. "After the Lights Go Down Low and Much More!!!"

Please fon't forget the Honey Cone and Laura Lee,,,

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Originally Posted by captainjames

Please fon't forget the Honey Cone and Laura Lee,,,

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Now, Captain - I'd never forget the Honey Cone - and I did mention Ms. Laura Lee!

BTW - the British label Edsel has / had an HDH imprint reissue program featuring 3 lps on a 2 cd set - they're a great buy.

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Originally Posted by BigAl

What I missed most were the Funk Brothers and Hitsville engineers. I felt the actual arrangements were okay. The Hot Wax/Invictus tracks all seemed to lack a depth of sound in the mixes, and also lacked the likes of James Jamerson and Mike Terry. There was just something missing.

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I thought it was well known the Funk Brothers were on Hot Wax/Invictus recordings. Maybe not the entire crew, but it was confirmed by Ray Monette and Ralph that HDH used the Funks on most of their recordings. They're the entire rhythm section on "Band Of Gold" and "Give Me Just A Little More Time."

I think the reason why HDH lacked innovation was due to the fact they were running the label. Instead of focusing all of their energy on writing and producing, they had to multitask.

Aside from the valid points above, there are other explanations to consider as to why Invictus' music was not as cutting edge as Motown.

Without the Funks, HDH relied on Detroit musicians who were simply not as versatile or tuned to one another as the Funk Bros. Add to this, HDH had to use their own money to launch Invictus so equipment, promotions, etc were much more budgeted than Motown. They didn't have the millions Gordy had to pour into launching new acts.

Also consider that HDH had to become businessmen now. At Motown they could concentrate fully on creativity. Now they had to oversee to business matters.

When it came to distribution they had to depend on bigger labels, first Capital then Buddah to get the product out. Therefore the Invictus artists were not priorities at these other labels.

I think where HDH went wrong was trying to launch so many different artists into a production line the way Motown had done so successfully. When you copy somebody else's successful way of doing things it usually does not work. Lightning never strikes twice. If they had concentrated to three or four acts maybe success would have been greater.

Regardless, I think Freda Payne's "Contact" lp and Honey Cones "Soulful Tapestry" lp are two of the best soul lps of the early 1970s. All the stops were pulled for Freda's lp but the distribution and promotion limited a gorgeous album from being a big seller. There's not one bad song on that "Contact" lp. It ranks up there with Martha Reeves' brilliant but lost MCA debut lp

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Originally Posted by BayouMotownMan

Aside from the valid points above, there are other explanations to consider as to why Invictus' music was not as cutting edge as Motown.

Without the Funks, HDH relied on Detroit musicians who were simply not as versatile or tuned to one another as the Funk Bros. Add to this, HDH had to use their own money to launch Invictus so equipment, promotions, etc were much more budgeted than Motown. They didn't have the millions Gordy had to pour into launching new acts.

Also consider that HDH had to become businessmen now. At Motown they could concentrate fully on creativity. Now they had to oversee to business matters.

When it came to distribution they had to depend on bigger labels, first Capital then Buddah to get the product out. Therefore the Invictus artists were not priorities at these other labels.

I think where HDH went wrong was trying to launch so many different artists into a production line the way Motown had done so successfully. When you copy somebody else's successful way of doing things it usually does not work. Lightning never strikes twice. If they had concentrated to three or four acts maybe success would have been greater.

Regardless, I think Freda Payne's "Contact" lp and Honey Cones "Soulful Tapestry" lp are two of the best soul lps of the early 1970s. All the stops were pulled for Freda's lp but the distribution and promotion limited a gorgeous album from being a big seller. There's not one bad song on that "Contact" lp. It ranks up there with Martha Reeves' brilliant but lost MCA debut lp

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This. 'Contact' and 'Soulful Tapestry' are both brills soul LPs.

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Originally Posted by mofreaktown

I have always been a huge fan of HDH, and I was as excited to see a new composition/production by HDH as I was for a new release by the Supremes or Four Tops. Towards the end of their time at Motown, I thought their productions got more intricate, different, and very interesting [[Reflections, Forever Came Today, 7 Rooms of Gloom, Bernadette). After they left Motown, I anxiously awaited their new productions at Invictus / Hot Wax. While I liked them and dutifully bought the albums of Chairmen of the Board and Freda Payne, to me, there was something missing from these new compositions and productions. They did not seem as innovative and did not seem to have the punch that their productions had at Motown. I am not sure what it was, the acts were good, the musicians in many instances were the same, yet something seemed to be missing.

Just curious to hear what other people think?

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I feel that Invictus/Hot Wax was launched with a bang. They had great songs [[like 'Give Me Just A Little More Time', 'Band Of Gold', 'Westbound #9', 'Want Ads', 'Women's Love Rights' and others) that were amongst the best early '70s Soul hits. And I don't feel that they needed to duplicate the punch of 'The Motown Sound' that they had with The Funk Bros. [[although various members 'moonlighted' on some of the Invictus/Hot Wax songs). However, I do feel that things went off-track for H-D-H after 1973 as they had ran out of great songs & ran into the business problems that would shut down their labels.

Here's my two cents worth. I agree, musically, the compositions themselves did not appear to be quite so innovative and distinguishable as I would have anticipated. Yes, a simple repeat of the Motown sound was not expected by me, however, I expected the productions would have more pizazz [[is that a word) than what I heard. There was a certain element of sophistication lacking. This is just my opinion. Was it bad? By no means. Did the productions excite me? No.

as a HUGE Motown fan, I feel Invictus/Hot Wax took up the banner and was very cutting edge the problem as mentioned above was that HDH[[involved with a lawsuit from Motown) had to also become business men. The real problem was the money flow as Capital & Buddah took too much off the top. After I while I'm sure they felt the bleeding.

I have only recently been able to appreciate the HDH stuff after they left Motown mainly because the Funks werent all there and the arrangements lacked something by comparison.

So having no longer got the vinyl I decided to acquire a compilation cd.

And from that where I assume most of the mixes are stereo, I have acquired more of a liking for HDH output on Invictus, Hot Wax and Music Merchant.

Now what if HDH had not left Motown when they did and carried on to write the same songs [[dont give me any Wayne/Dunbar grief - the songs are surely HDH!).

Who at Motown would have recorded Band of Gold... it's too ballsey a song for Ross. I can hear Tammi doing it but my bet would have been Martha and I reckon it was a number one in her hands.

The Tops could have come storming back to top of the charts with the Chairmen songs. And I would like to have heard the Velvelettes doing the songs given to the Honeycone.

Anyone else got some fantasies along these lines?

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Originally Posted by fatmaninthethirdrow

I have only recently been able to appreciate the HDH stuff after they left Motown mainly because the Funks werent all there and the arrangements lacked something by comparison.

So having no longer got the vinyl I decided to acquire a compilation cd.

And from that where I assume most of the mixes are stereo, I have acquired more of a liking for HDH output on Invictus, Hot Wax and Music Merchant.

Now what if HDH had not left Motown when they did and carried on to write the same songs [[dont give me any Wayne/Dunbar grief - the songs are surely HDH!).

Who at Motown would have recorded Band of Gold... it's too ballsey a song for Ross. I can hear Tammi doing it but my bet would have been Martha and I reckon it was a number one in her hands.

The Tops could have come storming back to top of the charts with the Chairmen songs. And I would like to have heard the Velvelettes doing the songs given to the Honeycone.

Anyone else got some fantasies along these lines?

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I like your post. Some very interesting ideas as to who would have recorded HDH's later compositions.

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Originally Posted by fatmaninthethirdrow

I have only recently been able to appreciate the HDH stuff after they left Motown mainly because the Funks werent all there and the arrangements lacked something by comparison.

So having no longer got the vinyl I decided to acquire a compilation cd.

And from that where I assume most of the mixes are stereo, I have acquired more of a liking for HDH output on Invictus, Hot Wax and Music Merchant.

Now what if HDH had not left Motown when they did and carried on to write the same songs [[dont give me any Wayne/Dunbar grief - the songs are surely HDH!).

Who at Motown would have recorded Band of Gold... it's too ballsey a song for Ross. I can hear Tammi doing it but my bet would have been Martha and I reckon it was a number one in her hands.

The Tops could have come storming back to top of the charts with the Chairmen songs. And I would like to have heard the Velvelettes doing the songs given to the Honeycone.

Anyone else got some fantasies along these lines?

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I sure do! I can see The Four Tops doing 'Give Me Just A Little More Time', 'Everything's Tuesday', 'Somebody's Been Sleeping [[In My Bed)' & 'I Can't Find Myself'. The [['70s) Supremes doing 'Band Of Gold', 'Stick Up' & 'Want Ads'. Martha & the Vandellas doing 'Women's Love Rights', 'Rip Off', & 'I'll Catch You When You Fall'. The Undisputed Truth doing 'Crumbs Off The Table', 'I Can't Be You [[You Can't Be Me'). Diana Ross could do 'I'm Not Getting Any Better/Suddenly It's Yesterday' & 'You Brought The Joy' And Rare Earth could do 'Westbound #9' & 'Mind, Body & Soul'.

As Freda Payne once sang, 'The Road We Didn't Take'....

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Originally Posted by fatmaninthethirdrow

I have only recently been able to appreciate the HDH stuff after they left Motown mainly because the Funks werent all there and the arrangements lacked something by comparison.

So having no longer got the vinyl I decided to acquire a compilation cd.

And from that where I assume most of the mixes are stereo, I have acquired more of a liking for HDH output on Invictus, Hot Wax and Music Merchant.

Now what if HDH had not left Motown when they did and carried on to write the same songs [[dont give me any Wayne/Dunbar grief - the songs are surely HDH!).

Who at Motown would have recorded Band of Gold... it's too ballsey a song for Ross. I can hear Tammi doing it but my bet would have been Martha and I reckon it was a number one in her hands.

The Tops could have come storming back to top of the charts with the Chairmen songs. And I would like to have heard the Velvelettes doing the songs given to the Honeycone.

Anyone else got some fantasies along these lines?

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What about Shorty Long? LOLOL

Great thread and interesting thoughts y'all. I don't know nearly enough about HDH after Motown, or about the Hot Wax/Invictus label, so will have to look into it all. Love the few hits I do know by Freda, The Chairmen, Honey Cone and 100 Proof of course. :D

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Originally Posted by TomatoTom123

Great thread and interesting thoughts y'all. I don't know nearly enough about HDH after Motown, or about the Hot Wax/Invictus label, so will have to look into it all. Love the few hits I do know by Freda, The Chairmen, Honey Cone and 100 Proof of course. :D

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There's a 'back to the street' sound about HW/I that I love; I think there are some playlists on YouTube that fans have made -

Could have been a prime candidate for a Motown buy out maybe. I thought some of the edits were a bit rough at times [[Deeper and Deeper springs to mind). There was also the invention of new words such as 'MOMENTUMS of the love we shared' from Odds and Ends. Yes could have done with a little more QC but nevertheless an awesome breadth of output and some excellent sounds.

I agree that part of the HDH problem was the compressed sound of their music. Perhaps they were going by the old Motown principle of wanting it to sound good in the car on the AM radio which were still prominent in the earliest seventies.

I'd love top hear this song remastered with more depth :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5RQipIV5mIs

It may have been a problem in the mastering, not the studio . Tom Moulton found that skill so important for getting the full sound of a recording that he began insisting that Jose Rodriquez get label credit for it.

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Originally Posted by Boogiedown

I agree that part of the HDH problem was the compressed sound of their music. Perhaps they were going by the old Motown principle of wanting it to sound good in the car on the AM radio which were still prominent in the earliest seventies.

I'd love top hear this song remastered with more depth :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5RQipIV5mIs

It may have been a problem in the mastering, not the studio . Tom Moulton found that skill so important for getting the full sound of a recording that he began insisting that Jose Rodriquez get label credit for it.

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And they were proud of [[at the time) the compressed sound for greater sound quality on the radio. Check out these pictures on Invictus singles for instance.




https://img.discogs.com/Uw8gdwMx12pk...25637.jpeg.jpg
https://img.discogs.com/Aec3_HVgrn4e...-1938.jpeg.jpg

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Originally Posted by fatmaninthethirdrow

I have only recently been able to appreciate the HDH stuff after they left Motown mainly because the Funks werent all there and the arrangements lacked something by comparison.

So having no longer got the vinyl I decided to acquire a compilation cd.

And from that where I assume most of the mixes are stereo, I have acquired more of a liking for HDH output on Invictus, Hot Wax and Music Merchant.

Now what if HDH had not left Motown when they did and carried on to write the same songs [[dont give me any Wayne/Dunbar grief - the songs are surely HDH!).

Who at Motown would have recorded Band of Gold... it's too ballsey a song for Ross. I can hear Tammi doing it but my bet would have been Martha and I reckon it was a number one in her hands.

The Tops could have come storming back to top of the charts with the Chairmen songs. And I would like to have heard the Velvelettes doing the songs given to the Honeycone.

Anyone else got some fantasies along these lines?

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I think the Four Tops doing "Patches" would have worked. Levi would have killed it!

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Originally Posted by lockhartgary

I think the Four Tops doing "Patches" would have worked. Levi would have killed it!

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Yes indeed; The Four Tops would've made a killer version of 'Patches'. Also if H-D-H had stayed with Motown Records, The Tops [[and Martha & the Vandellas) would've stayed with the company at least thru the mid '70s because each of them would've had huge hits with songs like 'Give Me Just A Little More Time', 'Want Ads', Women's Love Rights, & 'She's Not Just Another Woman'. Finally, I've always wondered what The Supremes [[Jean, Mary & Cindy) would've sounded like doing The Honey Cone's classic 'The Day I Found Myself'.

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Originally Posted by lockhartgary

I think the Four Tops doing "Patches" would have worked. Levi would have killed it!

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I also think that Edwin Starr could have knocked 'Patches' out of the park and wouldn't Yvonne Fair have had a field day with 'Women's Love Rights' and 'Rip Off'!!