Two programmes with Jimmy Webb on BBC radio four.
Monday 11 Dec. 11.00 pm
Tuesday 12 Dec 15.30 pm
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Two programmes with Jimmy Webb on BBC radio four.
Monday 11 Dec. 11.00 pm
Tuesday 12 Dec 15.30 pm
Delighted to say that Jimmy Webb was asked about his time with Motown, and he was quite complementary about the company ,or, "Motown West" as he called it.
I have read that Berry thought very highly of him as a writer.
The interesting thing was that he said he was to work on a project for white artists. He wrote "By the time I get to Phoenix" for Paul Petersen , but Paul didn't like the song, so it never happened.
He left Motown because " my boss got fired, I got fired"
I'm guessing that was Marc Gordon.
So, "Bttigtp", "Didn't we" and "Up up and away" were all Jobete songs that he was allowed to take away with him.
How much money Motown lose over the years?
Didn't We got plenty of mileage on Motown releases - Joe Harnell [[1969), Eddie Kendricks [[1970, a fabulous version on his debut All By Myself album), Supremes [[live, 1970) and Martha [[1970). Info thanks to Don't Forget The Motor CityQuote:
Originally Posted by snakepit
Quite a few used by Motown
Phoenix
Didn't we
Do what you gotta do
Macarthur Park
Wichita Lineman
Any more..?
Honey come back
Up up and away
Need to refer to my TCMS more.
The story of Phoenix/ Paul Petersen is told on the Danny Day single.
I was correct with my guess re Marc Gordon, that's mentioned too.
Another story I would like to find out more about is regarding the 5th Dimension. They auditioned for Motown [[1965-1966) as the Versatiles for Marc Gordon. From what I’ve read, Motown rejected them. I find this hard to believe. They could sign Connie Haines and Little Lisa, but reject the 5th Dimension? Doesn’t seem likely. Billy Davis Jr. and Marilyn McCoo have the most underrated voices in popular music. Another spin I heard was that the 5th Dimension auditioned and Motown wanted to sign them, but Marc Gordon left so he took the 5th Dimension with him before they could sign. This would make sense and why Jimmy Webb would follow them over to Johnny Rivers’ Soul City Records.
I would love to get to the bottom of this. Does anyone know more about it?
The second version sounds more likely.
According to Webb, Gordon and he were fired from Motown. He followed Gordon and if the Versatiles had been rejected
It seems natural that Gordon would want them.
Here's a passage from LaMonte McLemore's book,
"From Hobo Flats to the 5th Dimension: A Life Fulfilled in Baseball, Photography and Music by LaMonte McLemore as told to Robert Allan-Arno"
[[Copyright © 2014 LaMonte McLemore and Robert Allan-Arno)
Yes, the members of the Versatiles loved to rehearse, and we began booking small gigs to enthusiastic reaction, while starting, collectively to champ at the bit to be with the preeminet Motown as a group. Once again, because of my recent staff position at their West Coast division, it was easy for me to connect. I did so directly with Marc Gordon, their senior VP who got Motown to give us songs to record- basically old Smokey Robinson compositions. We were left to our own devices to get them to the label's formidable Berry Gordy, who was still back in Detroit. Everyone in the group chipped in for me to take those demos to Berry, but each day when I hightailed it to Motown headquarters- you know, historic l'il building that's now a museum- Berry would tell me, "I'm too busy, come back tomorrow."
I couldn't disappoint everyone, so by the third day, I planted myself on the Motown steps at 6:00 a.m., and when Berry arrived, he literally had to step over my long legs... if not ignore my plea, "Berry, if you don't listen today, I'm out of funds, and I'll to leave by tomorrow."
He shrugged without missing a step. "OK, come in right quick!" His reaction to the recording was, "Man, you all sound great, but I don't hear no hit. So just go back and cut some more."
So I went back. The group was terribly disheartened. However, the always even-tempered Marc Gordon revved us up. "If you go with Motown, you'll get lost in the shuffle behind The Supremes, The Temptations, and all... but the singer Johnny Rivers has this new record label called Soul City. He'll put y'all first. Plus, I got this writer I want you to listen to. His name is Jimmy Webb."
You see, Marc was leaving Motown and wanted to start repping us. So he arranged for a meeting of the Versatiles with Jimmy shortly thereafeter and cleverly wondered aloud, "Now if we can just find a writer for you guys and also find someone to do Jimmy's stuff--"
Jimmy jumped up with, "Well, I am writing this song for a play... maybe you'll like it!"
===============================================
By the way, LaMonte's book is really good. It's a fun, quick read; quite a few Motown anecdotes. Among other things, he mentions doing photo shoots with Stevie Wonder [[at the beach), Marvin Gaye [[at a party), and The Supremes [["A Day in the Life of The Supremes"), and some playful conversations with Diana Ross, Berry Gordy, etc.
Thanks Dylan! I'll have to look for this one.Quote:
Originally Posted by dylan
Dylan,
Many thanks for you post, it all comes together now.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gScgkDbkqf4
Versatile "You're good enough for me"
Great info!!:cool:
it's probably well known that Marc Gordon married Fifth Dimension's Florence LaRue in 1969 [[ in a hot air balloon!!).
When Billy Davis Jr. and Marilyn McCoo left in the mid-seventies, he gave it his best to try to sustain the fractured group and produced their attempted coup of the song LOVE HANGOVER.
But back to Jimmy Webb , has he ever addressed the failure of his Supremes project? Has he ever theorized how it could have been more successful?
Hey Boogiedown,
Here's an excerpt from Jimmy's book, THE CAKE AND THE RAIN.
Copyright © 2017 by Jimmy Webb. All rights reserved. Printed in the United States of America. For information, address St. Martin’s Press, 175 Fifth Avenue, New York, N.Y. 10010.
-
David Geffen called and asked if I would like to produce the Supremes. I thought Motown was a small receding speck in my rearview mirror and suddenly here they were with a dream project. The one little hang-up: Diana Ross was leaving the group to pursue a solo career. Well, of course! That’s what successful groups do. It is so hard to come up with that elusive chemistry, that prime number that can’t be divided by anything except itself, and when you have it—a virtual money machine—well, of course you break it.
Jean Terrell was a powerful singer, more from the Aretha Franklin mold of gospel influence than the “little voice” sound of Diana Ross who she was set to replace. Her brother was World Heavyweight Champion Ernie Terrell. Replacing Cindy Birdsong was Lynda Laurence. I heard a number of sides and demos by her and, satisfied that Mary Wilson was still on board I thought, why not? Perhaps we could rework the franchise and cut something that would take advantage of the singer-songwriter wave currently inundating the nation.
The girls didn’t blink an eye when I walked in the first night with “All I Want” by Joni Mitchell. They were ready for changes to their traditional repertoire. I also had the hopeful “When Can Brown Begin?” The label wasn’t looking over my shoulder so I ran with it. I worked the group hard. So hard in fact, that one night Jeanie came in with a note from her doctor. It was brief:
“Dear Mr. Webb, could you please refrain from requiring Miss Terrell to sing any notes above a high C? I believe she is damaging her vocal cords. Yours truly, Dr. So and So.”
I laughed and looked at Jean and said, “You’re puttin’ me on, right?”
“If you think so,” she said. “Next time I’ll have my brother come over and ’splain it to ya.”
Okay. I still wasn’t getting the sound I needed. I called Darlene Love and she brought in Fanita James and Jean King and now the sound was fat. The Supremes backgrounds had never sounded so good. We finished it up and turned it over to the label. They promptly brought in Shirley Matthews and Deke Richards to produce a “single.” This turned out to be Stephen Schwartz’s lovely song “I Guess I’ll Miss the Man.” They turned it over to the art department.
The cover was a close-up of a dandelion puffball backlit by a setting sun. Now, if I wanted to call attention to a new album by a bunch of new Supremes I would put their goddamn pictures on the front of it and call it “The New Supremes.” This product, almost impossible to recognize as a Supremes album, was called The Supremes [[Produced by Jimmy Webb). When I saw the cover, I knew it was a goner. The whole genetically engineered mess hit the floor like a chunk of lard. It achieved the lowest chart position in Supremes history: 129. So much for “When Can Brown Begin?” Even though the album scored a respectable twenty-seven on the Billboard R&B chart, none of my productions for this album were ever released as a single. Revisionists laud this album and say it was among the best of the Supremes but I’m sure that is not correct. There was only one real problem with it: it wasn’t the Supremes.
From:
THE CAKE AND THE RAIN. Copyright © 2017 by Jimmy Webb. All rights reserved. Printed in the United States of America. For information, address St. Martin’s Press, 175 Fifth Avenue, New York, N.Y. 10010.
- Publisher: St. Martin's Press; First Edition edition [[April 18, 2017)
Interesting recap on the Weed album. “The genetically engineered mess”
Find his comment about not getting the right background sound from the Sups a telling comment. Most other producers that used other backgrounds did so just for efficiency sake.
thanks very much Dylan! I hope you were able to cut and paste that excerpt and not type all that!!!
Is this the entirety of what Webb dedicated to his Supremes encounter in his book ? A couple pages? Disappointing.Quote:
Originally Posted by dylan
Interesting that among the songs Jimmy says he walked away from Motown with was "Didn't We". According to ASCAP, Jobete [[i.e. Sony) own this song now.
Love your editorials! I agree w everything u said lol
This project seems like three or more totally random groups of people trying to create something totally blind from the others. Jimmy doing his thing, then Deke, then the enigineers, thenthe graphics dept, then marketing. It’s as if not one of those groups interacted w the other or had any insight or input. Totally silo’d
This was around the time they started using that three-headed-hydra/mothra image in their advertising too. That was another marketing nightmare
Boogiedown,Quote:
Originally Posted by Boogiedown
Unfortunately, I have the physical book so I wasn't able to cut and paste BUT, I was more than happy to do it because I can really use the practice. It's almost 2018! It's time for me to tighten-up my typing game. Also, while I was typing, I had a glass of wine [[or two!) and that made it a lot less painful. I'm beginning to understand why a lot of writers drink... Once, I was as happy as a lark, minding my own business, living a simple, non-typing life, and then the internet came along and ruined everything for me! [[smile)
Yeah, I was hoping for more of Webb's thoughts regarding the Supremes too but, that's all he wrote. And as you point out, there were quite a few curious passeges that warranted some clarity. As for Geffen, he was managing Webb for a while. But who at Motown came up with the idea to recruit Webb? I think it was a good idea. I also think Webb's a little too hard on himself.
Sure, it wasn't a hit in the marketplace [[It's a business, of course, and having spent time, effort and money on a project only to see it under-perform is, understandably, disappointing) but I'm quite fond of it and really enjoy his production. There are beautiful leads by Jean, a fun duet, and a gorgeous ballad by Mary. Even the inclusion of, "I Guess I'l Miss The Man," works for me- it's a pretty song; to my ears, it doesn't sound out of place on the album and is a nice opener. Perhaps, sometimes an artist is too close to their work [[having too much knowledge about the process and mechanics) and aren't able to hear it/feel it the way other people hear it/feel it. As stated, Mr. Webb has a name for people like me... [[smile)
Webb had a similar issue when he arranged and conducted The 5th Dimension's, "The Magic Garden." Ticket To Ride," was tacked on to the end of side one due to contractual reasons but, themactically, it works within the context of his concept.
Mary said that it was their manager at the time, Wayne Weisbart, who suggested that they work with Webb.Quote:
Originally Posted by dylan
Finally some insight into this "horror"! Thanks Dylan. I think anyone who listens to this album and hears a great thing isn't wrong. Lyrically the songs are beautiful, as is the production, as are the vocals. There are definitely artists who could've benefited from this collection of songs. But Jimmy is right, these weren't the Supremes, at least where the sound was concerned. The Supremes with Jean were ripe for a Stevie Wonder produced project. Jimmy may have done better giving the project to the Blossoms themselves since he thinks they were so great.:rolleyes: I take exception to his opinion that the backgrounds never sounded so good. The Blossoms are cool- great even- but I'll take the Supremes and the Andantes background work over the Blossoms myself.
Possibly my least fav. LP. the entire project could have been saved by a better set of songs more well known by Jimmy Webb...without it becoming "the Supremes sing the 5th Dimension". People may have looked at the unfamiliar song selection, despite Webb's well known name, and put it back on the rack...and I can't find anything appealing here about the cover, so there's little hope for a high visibility record shop display placement ...there are very few songs I like on this LP. There should have been at least one Glen Campbell cover....imagine Wichita Lineman by Mary or Pheonix & Galveston by Jean?
5.30 Plane is IMHO one of Jean Terrell's masterpieces. The background vocals could have been cleaned up and less choir like.
Same thing with Silent Voices.
Once In The Morning, When Can Brown Begin and I Keep It Hid can stay...replace the rest.
IGIMTM is another Terrell masterpiece...should have been an independent single, more heavily promoted to adult stations with a hopeful catch on buzz into RnB and put on a hits LP. All I Want & Cheap Lovin' are 2 manic messes here...Paradise makes my ears hurt and Tossin' can be tossed.
Agree with both of these, though I still think it a mistake releasing "Miss the Man" as a single. But Jean's vocal is so beautiful. Her live versions are equally as brilliant. That woman could flat out sing.Quote:
Originally Posted by gman
For me the extra background singers,was just too much, he should have only used Mary Jean and Lynda,just think if Gamble and Huff had produced The Supremes Mary Jean and Lynda. What i like about them,they get into the artist first,and then,they write and produced,and only use them.
BradSupremes: this post might be of some interest re: the 5th.
http://www.adampwhite.com/westgrandblog/cake-and-rain
There’s also an earlier WestGrandBlog post on the subject of the group.
Regards...
this album is probably the biggest collection of "what if's" in the entire catalog of Sups/DRATS/Ross solo/etc. while i don't think Jimmy Webb is the most ideal composer/writer to pair the girls with, i do think it's very "of the time." 1972 had songs like American Pie, A Horse with no name, candy man, brand you're a fine girl, ben, i can see clearly now, i am woman. so i think the adult contempt approach would be appropriate. but it seems to be plagued with so many issues:
cover - although i can understand them trying for something moody and thoughtful, it's ridiculous. And given the importance of image for the Sups, album covers for them as almost as importance as album content
lack of enough big Webb songs - i think Phoenix would have been ideal for this. Imagine Jean doing a version of Do What You Gotta Do!! MacArthur Park is a bit on an over played and obvious selection but given that Jean had been doing that as a solo, it could have worked too.
the choir - enough said about this
more group in the production - it's not just that the Blossoms were added. there was little to no inclusion of M or L in any of the materials. it's a jean solo lp with backing vocals. not the production of a vocal group
backing track productions - Jimmy seems to be employing a wall of sound approach. but if you listen to any of the previous 70s sups lps, there's so much more variance and interest in the backing tracks. the violins fade in and out, horns, etc. When you listen to some of the karaoke versions, you hear much more but Frank and Smokey did marvelous jobs on producing. this lp is basically just loud. also some of the tunes are arranged too high and this negatively impacts Jean's vocal tone
some positives
Once in the morning - love this track and the idea of them doing a duet with Jimmy. just needs M and L on it too
Cheap Lovin - i actually like this and think, with the removal of the Blossoms, it's would be a strong single contender
All I want - this is ok. i think again if the additional backgrounds weren't on it, it would have worked better
530 plane - a fav track. i do think that it and Phoenix would have been too similar to be on the lp together.
so if you could make the ideal Jimmy Webb lp, what would your track listing be?
Side A
5:30 Plane
Tossin and Turning
Do What You Gotta Do
I keep it hid
When Can Brown Begin
Beyond Myself [[assuming they redid so Jean's not screechy)
Side B
All I Want
By the time i get to phoenix
MacArthur Park
Once in the morning
Cheap Lovin
Being a huge fan of Jimmy Webb, I think these songs would have made a far better album. As you can see, I scrapped everything except two songs. The songs I picked are among Jimmy Webb's far better material. Some are a little rare gems that I wish were recorded by more artists.Quote:
Originally Posted by sup_fan
SIDE ONE
Midnight Mail
When Can Brown Begin
See You Then
Watermark
To Make It Easier On You
By The Time I Get To Phoenix
SIDE TWO
Pocketful Of Keys
Psalm One-Five-O
Dorothy Chandler Blues
I Keep It Hid
The Girls' Song
Do What You Gotta Do
Even all these years later it seems Jimmy Webb thinks Motown should have released the pretentious WHEN CAN BROWN BEGIN as a single. I think they got it right.
Heavy handed pontificating is the furthest from what a Supremes song should be imo.
Besides although its aim is to present itself as poetically "heavy", upon closer examination, this mess is but a bunch of gobbledygook.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VckRQWLmEc
imo.
when/where can brown begin ? :rolleyes::rolleyes::p:p
Wish I could participate Sup, but I am not [[knowingly) familiar with much of Jimmy's work. And what I have heard is usually not my thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by sup_fan
Thanks, Reese. I had always wondered about that.Quote:
Originally Posted by reese
Hey Boogiedown,Quote:
Originally Posted by Boogiedown
Here's another little tidbit about your favorite song [[wink). Webb went to see Sammy Davis Jr. perform in London, 1968:
After his show Sammy came out and joined us. He and I had a most spirited conversation about civil rights, which ended with his demanding, “Why doesn’t someone write a song called ‘When Can Brown Begin?’” I wrote the title on the back of a linen napkin and carried it away with me.
From:
THE CAKE AND THE RAIN. Copyright © 2017 by Jimmy Webb. All rights reserved. Printed in the United States of America. For information, address St. Martin’s Press, 175 Fifth Avenue, New York, N.Y. 10010.
- Publisher: St. Martin's Press; First Edition edition [[April 18, 2017)
What is "IGIMTM"? I know they are the first letters to a song, but I can't quite place it. ThanksQuote:
Originally Posted by gman
thank you very much for this Dylan. :cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by dylan
Too bad Sammy instead didn't say , "Why doesn't someone write a song called "CANDYMAN" ? He could've set Webb up for quite a hit ! :p:cool:
Sammy Davis Jr. will put out several album projects during the seventies , but I don't see a certain song on any of them . :rolleyes:
He did however do another Jimmy Webb tune :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m40T9fh5dYk
[[Donna Summer he sure aint!)
Dylan, in his book , does Webb reflect on the beginnings of Glenn Campbell ? Does he have any theories as to why its first time out, GENTLE ON MY MIND failed to make the Top 40 ? Or why the follow-up, BY THE TIME I GET TO PHOENIX fizzled at a puny #26??
BTW , That song introduced the country to Glenn exactly fifty years ago in December 1967.
Couple more things.
Why did the Supremes manager want to connect The Supremes with Jimmy Webb particularly ? Did he think they should strive toward a more Fifth Dimension sound? I guess I don't understand the desired connection. And if so, that intent wasn't well conveyed because I certainly don't hear the fullness of the Fifth Dimension here.
I suspect Motown intentionally distanced The Supremes from this project by purposely keeping them off the cover and using some random seeming MOR image as sort of a warning to Supremes fans that this what not a normal outing for them. This outing is The Supremes doing Jimmy Webb as is stated clearly from the outset . To put them on the cover in their usual shimmering garb would have seemed very misleading. This LP is not about shimmering.
You have to like the piano a lot to embrace this LP . Songs sung while sitting at a piano.
There seems to have been no attempt to incorporate any Motown signature sounds here, driving bass? tambourines? Uptempo fun? In some ways it makes me wonder if he did his homework before doing this assignment. Did he try to figure out how make sure The Supremes came through as the Supremes ? Even Webb concludes in his comments posted above that this album was NOT them.
As I listen , I think this project was tailor made for a solo artist and Dionne Warwick keeps coming to mind .
Having said all that , I do like the piano and I do overall like this music played by Webb featuring The Supremes including the added choir effect heard on many of the tunes but as I listen I find the prominence of Jean Terrell's voice gets tiresome to listen to. Lots of rough spots.
In case you don't know yet "I Guess I'll Miss the Man".Quote:
Originally Posted by jobucats
Thanks...This brain of mine has trouble unraveling bunches of letters for song titles at times. I honestly tried to figure this one out.Quote:
Originally Posted by 144man
I don't think it was intended to sound like the Supremes. Jimmy Webb is a white producer who worked with the great Glen Campbell and the Fifth Dimension. If they wanted a Motown sound, they would have hired someone else. I think the Supremes wanted to do something new and interesting. I found the album to be okay, but very dark and depressing. I have not played it in decades and you could not pay me to hear it again. No interest in going back there.
I Guess Ill Miss The Man - a dud. It is a Broadway number, not a pop song. Where Can Brown Begin makes me kind of wanna barf. I hate anything preachy.
LOL, Circa, how can it be both “okay” and “horribly depressing” / “you could not pay me to hear it again” at the same time? ;)
I have to say I have never listened to the album in my life... the idea of it doesn’t really entice me I don’t think... :)
Tomato, musically it was okay. But, I was in a darker place in my life at the time and that album made it a bit darker. It was not a good match between where I was and what was coming out of the speakers.
Ah I see, Circa. In terms of the actual music it’s okay but it feels sad if you know what I mean. Sorry to hear that about you as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Circa 1824
I like a nice jolly song me, lol