Jermaine "coming out too early" :-)

Hi Folks,

recently I`ve heard the J5 Version of the Jackson Browne Jam "Doctor my eyes" from the LOMW - LP and I recognize [[again) that, after Michaels Into Part brother Jermaine is coming in far too early with the second verse [['Cause I have wandered through this world"). That was never been corrected I think. This fact is a little bit funny for me, because I`v always thought of Berry beeing the perfect Perfectionist:D

Another example is the song "Silver Bells" from the Supremes, when [[whether Mary or Flo) seemed to come in too early, but this is not be heard on all versions perhaps...

Any other exampels ??
Greetings from Germany

Viele Grüße aus Atlanta. Neulich, blieb ich drei Wochen in Deutschland um die U-Bahn und Stadtbahn Stationen zu photographieren. 400 Stationen in zwölf Städten; Der Anfang: https://www.nabobswims.com/western-europe

On the stereo version of Gladys Knight and the Pips' IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN ME, at the bridge, you can hear a slight "You" before Gladys sings the line "You made a promise that we'd never part..."

I don't think its an instance of her coming in too early. It sounds more like a bad edit.

Michael sings "Never can't say goodbye" in the opening line of the same titled song. He also comes in early on the "Pitter patter" bit in "Up on the Housetop" if I recall correctly. He comes in with "on..." to start the on dasher etc whilst the brothers are still singing and then stops and sings it later.
[[There's also "Just look over your shoulders honey!" that got left in "I'll be there")

I don't see anything wrong at all with "Just look over your shoulders honey!" - you have 2 shoulders and you look over each in turn. Perfectly acceptable.

This is debatable as to whether or not it was intentional; however, around the end of the Four Tops "You Keep Running Away", it appears that Levi comes in early with the word 'each' and then corrects himself quickly as he sings it on the 'right' beat towards the end of the song. "each, each time you go, the hurt becomes stronger."

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Originally Posted by jobucats

This is debatable as to whether or not it was intentional; however, around the end of the Four Tops "You Keep Running Away", it appears that Levi comes in early with the word 'each' and then corrects himself quickly as he sings it on the 'right' beat towards the end of the song. "each, each time you go, the hurt becomes stronger."

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Only on the later remix.

The mono single mix and the original stereo mix omit the whole of the preceding chorus along with the extra "each". Also, the horn "figure" that [[annoyingly to me) permeates the whole of the remix from end to end is omitted from the original mono and stereo versions apart from where that deleted chorus would have been and, cleverly, becomes the lead in an instrumental break.

Sadly, the original stereo mix is MIA, and the overly busy stereo remix rules the stereo roost.

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Originally Posted by Sotosound

Only on the later remix.

The mono single mix and the original stereo mix omit the whole of the preceding chorus along with the extra "each". Also, the horn "figure" that [[annoyingly to me) permeates the whole of the remix from end to end is omitted from the original mono and stereo versions apart from where that deleted chorus would have been and, cleverly, becomes the lead in an instrumental break.

Sadly, the original stereo mix is MIA, and the overly busy stereo remix rules the stereo roost.

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Thanks, Sotosound, for pointing that out about the different mixes. I have several in my library; however, I must confess I don't have them labeled.

The recording was always interesting to me. When it first came out, I was excited about a rather different output from the HDH/Four Tops group; however, I felt it was somewhat ahead of its time...almost too intricate. My favorite part about the recording are the background vocals with the Andantes added in which on part is being held over while another part is added, ending the phrase with a most unusual chord. I recall the horn you mentioned being quite dominant in some of the versions that I heard.
I can't find evidence that this was covered by any other artists.

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Originally Posted by mysterysinger

I don't see anything wrong at all with "Just look over your shoulders honey!" - you have 2 shoulders and you look over each in turn. Perfectly acceptable.

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It was meant to be a callout to the The Four Tops "Reach out, I'll be there" lyric. Though thinking about it Michael does the same shoulders thing in the J5 cover of that song as well.

I think a good example of a mistake on a Motown recording is on "Never Leave Your Baby's Side" by Martha & The Vandellas. At the 1:20 mark, they come in a measure too early with the line 'So when you go out walking, WATCHOUT'. There's a short pause before they repeat the same line and continue with the rest of the song.

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Originally Posted by Sotosound

Only on the later remix.

The mono single mix and the original stereo mix omit the whole of the preceding chorus along with the extra "each". Also, the horn "figure" that [[annoyingly to me) permeates the whole of the remix from end to end is omitted from the original mono and stereo versions apart from where that deleted chorus would have been and, cleverly, becomes the lead in an instrumental break.

Sadly, the original stereo mix is MIA, and the overly busy stereo remix rules the stereo roost.

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"In the days of vinyl, there was a stereo mix of the Four Tops - "You Keep Running Away" which despite a search doesn't seem to appear on any CDs, nor previously on YouTube. Hopefully this will rectify the situation making the original stereo mix available once again.

This was the version used on the original UK stereo issues of the Four Tops "Greatest Hits" and "British Motown Chartbusters Volume 2"."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iARaRXe7ee0

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Originally Posted by jobucats

Thanks, Sotosound, for pointing that out about the different mixes. I have several in my library; however, I must confess I don't have them labeled.

The recording was always interesting to me. When it first came out, I was excited about a rather different output from the HDH/Four Tops group; however, I felt it was somewhat ahead of its time...almost too intricate. My favorite part about the recording are the background vocals with the Andantes added in which on part is being held over while another part is added, ending the phrase with a most unusual chord. I recall the horn you mentioned being quite dominant in some of the versions that I heard.
I can't find evidence that this was covered by any other artists.

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"You Keep Running Away" was recorded by Chuck Jackson on his "Goin' Back To" Motown album and also by The Messengers on their Rare Earth album.

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Originally Posted by mysterysinger

"You Keep Running Away" was recorded by Chuck Jackson on his "Goin' Back To" Motown album and also by The Messengers on their Rare Earth album.

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Thanks, mysterysinger!

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Originally Posted by mysterysinger

"In the days of vinyl, there was a stereo mix of the Four Tops - "You Keep Running Away" which despite a search doesn't seem to appear on any CDs, nor previously on YouTube. Hopefully this will rectify the situation making the original stereo mix available once again.

This was the version used on the original UK stereo issues of the Four Tops "Greatest Hits" and "British Motown Chartbusters Volume 2"."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iARaRXe7ee0

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This version is quite interesting to me because it appears to be faster and in a different key than the versions I have in my music library. This UK version is in the key of B as opposed to what I am familiar with [[key of Bb). Just that slight difference in the key and the tempo, which may be a result of the audio medium being used, is rather pleasant to my ears. This reminds me of the different versions of Diana Ross' "Behind Closed Doors" in which one version seems to be just a mechanically 'speeded' up version of another version.

Really?
Every single for the Four Tops "You Keep Running Away" be they an album or a 45, every one even the Youtube copies [above] is exactly the same time at 2.50 to 2.51. My US 45 copy is at 2.50.

The Stereo versions may sound faster but it is not any different. The UK Demo copy is listed a 2.48, if it is 3 seconds different unlikely to make any difference over 2.50.

If it is speeded up on a record deck then the time would show up on Youtube.
Worth checking out the "Motown Chartbusters" album version, I sold all of these albums many years ago. Good to check!

The video version runs nearer 2:40 in terms of the music which sounds like it might be a result of the record deck though also bear in mind the statement from Sotosound "The mono single mix and the original stereo mix omit the whole of the preceding chorus along with the extra "each"."

I also note that on 31453-0707-2 Various Artists - Motown The History - The Love Songs Disc 1, the Four Tops "You Keep Running Away" runs at 2:39. Ironically also, given another thread, it runs at 2:39 on the CD 31453-0655-2 Master Series - Four Tops.

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Originally Posted by Thatkliqkid

Michael sings "Never can't say goodbye" in the opening line of the same titled song.

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I have listened to the start of this song about twenty times now trying to hear this supposed mistake, and I can't, if you'll pardon the pun. I tried on the [[unofficial) 5.1 mix and still couldn't hear anything wrong. If he does sing "can't" then it's not just in the first line because he pronounces the word exactly the same in subsequent lines.

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Originally Posted by stupidactingsmart

I have listened to the start of this song about twenty times now trying to hear this supposed mistake, and I can't, if you'll pardon the pun. I tried on the [[unofficial) 5.1 mix and still couldn't hear anything wrong. If he does sing "can't" then it's not just in the first line because he pronounces the word exactly the same in subsequent lines.

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Michael sings "Never CAN say goodbye". As it should be - unless there's a different or live version somewhere where he sings otherwise.

Apologies, second line. You can hear it in the acapella, he's not singing can. There's a definite "T" or "D" sound at the end.

https://youtu.be/FV0VeJMq0x4?si=zTYFiCsPKvy13kNj

I can hear what you mean now but I remain unconvinced. "Definite" is a bit strong a description for the very light glottal stop I'm hearing. To me it just sounds like he rushed the next syllable a bit. I'm not convinced he's singing the wrong word. As it happens, Mike's diction was never particularly good, right into adulthood. Needless to say, however, as that a capella mix proves, he was a phenomenal vocalist.

Speaking of diction, doesn't Michael sing the word 'pack' instead of 'pact' on "I'll Be There"? Well, at least that's how I always heard it...even on the a cappella version.

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Originally Posted by jobucats

Speaking of diction, doesn't Michael sing the word 'pack' instead of 'pact' on "I'll Be There"? Well, at least that's how I always heard it...even on the a cappella version.

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He does, possibly because, as a young boy, he hears the rhyme of 'pack' and 'back' and doesn't really know what 'pact' means.

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Originally Posted by jobucats

This version is quite interesting to me because it appears to be faster and in a different key than the versions I have in my music library. This UK version is in the key of B as opposed to what I am familiar with [[key of Bb). Just that slight difference in the key and the tempo, which may be a result of the audio medium being used, is rather pleasant to my ears. This reminds me of the different versions of Diana Ross' "Behind Closed Doors" in which one version seems to be just a mechanically 'speeded' up version of another version.

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I have both stereo mixes and the mono single mix on vinyl and the key is the same on all of them.

To clarify what I previously wrote, in the mono single and on the stereo mix from the original vinyl British Motown Chartbusters LP, the annoying-to-me horn figure is omitted from the track, i.e. faded down, apart from the where the chorus that ends with an extra "each" is on the newer stereo remix. In that part of the track on the original mix, the lead vocal is omitted, i.e. faded down, and the annoying-to-my horn figure is faded up to give us an instrumental break of sorts. No edit, just different mixing decisions.

This will become clear if one listens to the mono single mix and the 1968 British Motown Chartbusters LP track.

The CD re-issue of the Chartbusters album uses the newer mix, however. I first came upon this newer mix on the Tops' Great Hits Volume 2 vinyl album and wonder whether or not the track was remixed for that album.

I'm thinking that it's a newer mix because of the way that it sounds, and because - in 1969-70 - Motown started to create new stereo mixes of some previously recorded tracks such as "Never Had A Dream Come True" and "My Cherie Amour" by Stevie Wonder, giving us two distinct stereo mixes of each.

It might be that Motown created stereo mixes when the tracks were first recorded and put in the can, and then created new stereo mixes when the tracks were taken out of the can for issuing on single and subsequently on album.

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Originally Posted by Sotosound

I have both stereo mixes and the mono single mix on vinyl and the key is the same on all of them.

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The version shared above by mysterysinger was accompanied by the phrase "This was the version used on the original UK stereo issues of the Four Tops "Greatest Hits" and "British Motown Chartbusters Volume 2". I don't know if he shared the vinyl version or the digital version. It's in the key of B. It is slightly faster in tempo than the 3 digital versions of the Motown released CDs I have which are all in the key of Bb. It is faster than the versions one may find on YouTube which are attributed to certain albums.

When I get the chance, I'll physically compare speeds as I have those two albums on Tamla Motown as well as a single re-issue on Tamla Motown and an original US single plus that US Greatest Hits Volume 2 that I mentioned.

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Originally Posted by Sotosound

When I get the chance, I'll physically compare speeds as I have those two albums on Tamla Motown as well as a single re-issue on Tamla Motown and an original US single plus that US Greatest Hits Volume 2 that I mentioned.

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It could be an "apple and oranges" phenomena comparing the output as issued on vinyl or digital. Who knows? My initial comment regarding the differences was based on what results I was getting comparing my digital versions [[from the cds and from purchasing online) to the link that was posted above. I used a pitch device to draw my conclusions. Thanks!!!!

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Originally Posted by jobucats

It could be an "apple and oranges" phenomena comparing the output as issued on vinyl or digital. Who knows? My initial comment regarding the differences was based on what results I was getting comparing my digital versions [[from the cds and from purchasing online) to the link that was posted above. I used a pitch device to draw my conclusions. Thanks!!!!

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We have to bear in mind that the Youtube post is taken from an analogue source, and I suspect that the pitch wasn't changed by digitisation.

My comparison will initially be all-analogue, followed by a cross-check with digital.

My pitch device consists of two cranial transducers feeding an organic CPU.

along these same lines .....I love this record, perfect to my ears ......except I always cringe in anticipation of Earl Young singing

"I guess I'll always will" at 1:53

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2dq6pU4J80

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Originally Posted by Sotosound

We have to bear in mind that the Youtube post is taken from an analogue source, and I suspect that the pitch wasn't changed by digitisation.

My comparison will initially be all-analogue, followed by a cross-check with digital.

My pitch device consists of two cranial transducers feeding an organic CPU.

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So... all of my own copies in mono and stereo across both analogue and digital domains broadly share the same pitch, and that YouTube version therefore sticks out like a sore thumb, being much, much faster.

The big check was to compare the versions on the mono and stereo vinyl Chartbusters, and the pitch was the same for both mixes. :)

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Originally Posted by Sotosound

So... all of my own copies in mono and stereo across both analogue and digital domains broadly share the same pitch, and that YouTube version therefore sticks out like a sore thumb, being much, much faster.

The big check was to compare the versions on the mono and stereo vinyl Chartbusters, and the pitch was the same for both mixes. :)

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Thank you for doing all of that work. My ears weren't deceiving me after all.

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Originally Posted by jobucats

Thank you for doing all of that work. My ears weren't deceiving me after all.

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De nada. :)

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Originally Posted by Thatkliqkid

Apologies, second line. You can hear it in the acapella, he's not singing can. There's a definite "T" or "D" sound at the end.

https://youtu.be/FV0VeJMq0x4?si=zTYFiCsPKvy13kNj

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Michael is singing "Never Can Say Goodbye" - no doubt in my mind. The phrasing on the second line is ever so slightly different but it's still "can" sorry.

Mind you it's a common thing with Jackson 5 records that the work "ask" is pronounced "axe" which is unfortunate when a song such as "Ask The Lonely" becomes "axe the lonely". Not just Michael who does it either.

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Originally Posted by mysterysinger

Mind you it's a common thing with Jackson 5 records that the work "ask" is pronounced "axe" which is unfortunate when a song such as "Ask The Lonely" becomes "axe the lonely". Not just Michael who does it either.

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I think that's common African American vernacular in some parts isn't it? I first noticed it in "One more chance" it's very prominent. Michael is still pronouncing "axe" in The Jacksons "Blues Away" in 1976. [[I may have to try find later songs with ask in to see if it changed over the years)
Interestingly Michael sings "asking" with a more usual pronunciation as a child in "My little baby" and as an adult in "You are not alone". Maybe it's harder to sing it as axeing.