Could Robert Townsend have saved David Ruffin?

I saw “The making of The Five Heartbeats” last night, and while the Dells were heavily involved with the film, it was Robert’s love of the Temptations that inspired the film as a whole. He stated that he took the group’s break up [[or rather David Ruffin leaving the group as he meant to say) very personal as a child. The story he gave was that he’d handpicked David and Eddie Kendricks to serve as technical advisors. The studio voted against it fearing a lawsuit from Berry Gordy, who might have thought the Big Red character was based on him. [[IIRC, he was actually based on Duke records owner Don Robey) He stated that he and Keenan Ivory Wayans, who was originally supposed to play JT, agreed to pay for him to go to rehab upon the film’s completion.

Ultimately, the film was released in March of 1991, and we all know what happened to David Ruffin later that spring. One of the most powerful lines from the doc was Robert quoting Michael Wright saying “we couldn’t save the real Eddie King Jr.”

What do you think? If David Ruffin had been that film’s technical advisor, would he had accepted Robert’s offer to go to rehab on his dime? Could he have saved David, or at least, slowed down the process?

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Originally Posted by jboy88

I saw “The making of The Five Heartbeats” last night, and while the Dells were heavily involved with the film, it was Robert’s love of the Temptations that inspired the film as a whole. He stated that he took the group’s break up [[or rather David Ruffin leaving the group as he meant to say) very personal as a child. The story he gave was that he’d handpicked David and Eddie Kendricks to serve as technical advisors. The studio voted against it fearing a lawsuit from Berry Gordy, who might have thought the Big Red character was based on him. [[IIRC, he was actually based on Duke records owner Don Robey) He stated that he and Keenan Ivory Wayans, who was originally supposed to play JT, agreed to pay for him to go to rehab upon the film’s completion.

Ultimately, the film was released in March of 1991, and we all know what happened to David Ruffin later that spring. One of the most powerful lines from the doc was Robert quoting Michael Wright saying “we couldn’t save the real Eddie King Jr.”

What do you think? If David Ruffin had been that film’s technical advisor, would he had accepted Robert’s offer to go to rehab on his dime? Could he have saved David, or at least, slowed down the process?

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NO! Robert Townsend needs to be ashamed of himself! I don't care what he says now, but all the while he was filming the Five Heartbeats, he hung around the Dells and even appeared with them on television several times. AFTER the deaths of Marvin Junior and Johnny from the Dells, he starts telling people the film was not based on the Dells which really disturbed and hurt the feelings of the surviving members of the Dells. No, he could not save David Ruffin. Only God and David Ruffin could have done that. If David were alive to hear any of this bullshit, I guarantee you that he'd pitch a bitch and curse Robert Townsend and associates out!!!

One more thing. I have completely lost all respect for Robert Townsend and will never support anything he does from here on in.

Listen to this interview. Listen to how proud they were! I would punch Robert Townsend right in his lying, exploitative mouth if I saw him tomorrow!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IuU0EigpeQA

Never heard of him!

Robert did give the Dells their props. He even acknowledged that the scene where the group sees their album cover with a white family photo was added to the script AFTER the Dells came on board. The same thing happened to them when they were on vee-jay. “Why are n*ggas always crossing over sh*t?” and “How come the never crossed over to us?” were genuine comments from the actual Dells that the Heartbeats utter in the film.

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Originally Posted by copley

Never heard of him!

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Robert Townsend is a noted Black writer/director, actor and comedian. You might remember him from his 90s WB sitcom,The Parent Hood. His 1991 film “The Five Heartbeats” is a cult classic in the Black community. He’s also an avid supporter of Black music and has directed several films based on the subject.

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Originally Posted by jboy88

Robert did give the Dells their props. He even acknowledged that the scene where the group sees their album cover with a white family photo was added to the script AFTER the Dells came on board. The same thing happened to them when they were on vee-jay. “Why are n*ggas always crossing over sh*t?” and “How come the never crossed over to us?” were genuine comments from the actual Dells that the Heartbeats utter in the film.

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It goes deeper than that. When he was preparing the story for the film, he went to the Dells, used his "I''m from Chicago too....." connection and begged them if he could go out on tour with them for weeks, maybe a couple of months. He spent the time asking them all sorts of questions about their lives as R&B artists down through the years etc. If I can find the video where Vern and Mickey are virtually stunned to hear that Robert was now saying that the "Five Heartbeats" were NOT about them, I will post it. These guys opened the doors for so many groups. They were around before the Temptations. I would punch Robert Townsend in his fat, desperate mouth on behalf of all the Dells living and dead!

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Originally Posted by jboy88

Robert Townsend is a noted Black writer/director, actor and comedian. You might remember him from his 90s WB sitcom,The Parent Hood. His 1991 film “The Five Heartbeats” is a cult classic in the Black community. He’s also an avid supporter of Black music and has directed several films based on the subject.

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Also, was in the movie "Meteor Man".

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Originally Posted by nativeNY63

Also, was in the movie "Meteor Man".

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I remember him from "A Soldier's Story", and even with that, he's turned out to be a major A-hole!

This kind of thing has been happening around the arts industries lately. Folks trying to re-write their stories after the original text has already been published...I used to like this cat
but if this is his new way of operating, F**K Him.....

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Originally Posted by jboy88

I saw “The making of The Five Heartbeats” last night, and while the Dells were heavily involved with the film, it was Robert’s love of the Temptations that inspired the film as a whole. He stated that he took the group’s break up [[or rather David Ruffin leaving the group as he meant to say) very personal as a child. The story he gave was that he’d handpicked David and Eddie Kendricks to serve as technical advisors. The studio voted against it fearing a lawsuit from Berry Gordy, who might have thought the Big Red character was based on him. [[IIRC, he was actually based on Duke records owner Don Robey) He stated that he and Keenan Ivory Wayans, who was originally supposed to play JT, agreed to pay for him to go to rehab upon the film’s completion.

Ultimately, the film was released in March of 1991, and we all know what happened to David Ruffin later that spring. One of the most powerful lines from the doc was Robert quoting Michael Wright saying “we couldn’t save the real Eddie King Jr.”

What do you think? If David Ruffin had been that film’s technical advisor, would he had accepted Robert’s offer to go to rehab on his dime? Could he have saved David, or at least, slowed down the process?

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David Ruffin was not like Eddie King Jr at all!

The film was in “development hell” for years before it was green lit by 20th century Fox. Robert stated that he and Keenan wrote over 25 different drafts of the script. Keenan had to drop out because of “In Living Color”.

I didn’t realize that the name Robert Townsend was mud on this forum. But hey, live and learn I guess.

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Originally Posted by jboy88

The film was in “development hell” for years before it was green lit by 20th century Fox. Robert stated that he and Keenan wrote over 25 different drafts of the script. Keenan had to drop out because of “In Living Color”.

I didn’t realize that the name Robert Townsend was mud on this forum. But hey, live and learn I guess.

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If Robert Townsend used David Ruffin for one of his characters, I am sure he did not contact or gave Cheryl, her sisters, or David Jr. one dime! He acted no differently than those record execs of the 50s and 60s. Exploiting the artists and giving them nothing in return!

He did hold a benefit show for David’s family after his death. Beyond that...

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Originally Posted by jboy88

He did hold a benefit show for David’s family after his death. Beyond that...

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Ok, I am done! Robert Townsend is on my "Oprah Winfrey" list which means he joins her and Bill Maher in the abyss! LOL!

During the 20-year reunion of the movie, Robert Townsend said The Five Heartbeats was a composite of the Temptations, Dells, and other 50s & 60s groups. I believe one of the reasons, Townsend traveled with the Dells is because they were still intact as a group. Now, would David Ruffin have accepted Townsend's offer to enter rehab? IMHO, Yes!

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Originally Posted by marv2

Listen to this interview. Listen to how proud they were! I would punch Robert Townsend right in his lying, exploitative mouth if I saw him tomorrow!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IuU0EigpeQA

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Hey Marv,

This was a good interview, but I was taken aback at the level of disrespect of some at the station, didn't they know that they were in the presence of greatness.

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Originally Posted by splanky

This kind of thing has been happening around the arts industries lately. Folks trying to re-write their stories after the original text has already been published...I used to like this cat
but if this is his new way of operating, F**K Him.....

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There you go Splanky! That's what I am talking about! I just wished he had not done that to the Dells. They loved Robert Townsend and I saw how hurt they were when he starting saying the story was not really all about the Dells. Marvin Junior was still with us then.

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Originally Posted by jboy88

Robert Townsend is a noted Black writer/director, actor and comedian. You might remember him from his 90s WB sitcom,The Parent Hood. His 1991 film “The Five Heartbeats” is a cult classic in the Black community. He’s also an avid supporter of Black music and has directed several films based on the subject.

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Thanks but he's not really known in the UK which is why he has slipped under my radar.

Townsend should be ashamed of himself,you're right marv,david would've cussed his ass out!

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Originally Posted by arr&bee

Townsend should be ashamed of himself,you're right marv,david would've cussed his ass out!

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Most definitely. I hate that he wants people to believe that David Ruffin was some type of "Eddie King" character......he was not!

Here's the thing about this film: I think he obviously changed many things about it. It was originally going to be a comedy but the Dells were like "dude, these were serious times, we went through hell, i.e., being raised in the inner city, risen up the ranks in the chitlin' circuit, dealing with racism, etc." but whereas the Dells managed to beat the odds against 'em [[AFAIK there's no history of drug abuse, arrests or even intra-conflicts, like there were with the Temptations, which is what he also seemed to base the film on, albeit very exaggerated).

But from what I gather, yeah, Big Red was based after Don Robey, who actually beat the ish out of a pre-fame Little Richard when he demanded royalties so Bird could've been a LR and Jackie Wilson doppleganger. I think Jackie asked about royalties too.

Parts of where you can tell it's based on the Dells:
The fact the Dells were originally a sextet, as were, technically at least, the Five Heartbeats [[Duck wasn't even an official member, he was their songwriter and backing pianist)
The Dells originally had two brothers, Lucius & Mickey McGill; Lucius ended up leaving the group; so did the Five Heartbeats [[Duck and JT)
Both groups look like they were based in Chicago [[correct me if I'm wrong)
The Dells' anger over white faces being featured on their album covers [[which was true for most black vocal groups; the cover in the Five Heartbeats' album mimicked the cover used for the Isley Brothers' "This Old Heart of Mine" album)
I guess, correct me again, the Dells had Cholly Atkins helping them with their choreography [[Cholly in the Five Heartbeats' film was Harold Nicholas' "Sarge")

Other than that, I don't know any more similarities!

Jimmy's murder... did the Dells have a manager that was murdered similarly?

Did the Dells members accuse others of sleeping with the same woman? Because if that was the case, why stay together? Because they weathered storms together but I doubt it was that crazy! Now the Temptations on the other hand...

I know some of the Dells members probably dealt with religious fathers and distant fathers but I don't know their back story. They should've gotten together with David Ritz and wrote a book when all of the members were still alive. But it seems the altercations with Eddie and Choirboy's fathers in the Five Heartbeats film was based after Marvin Gaye [[correct me if I'm wrong).

Eddie & Babydoll's relationship could've been based off any of the Motown relationships at the time.

Just so many questions. I don't think Robert respected the Dells at all. He turned what could've been a respectable film about the rise of an African American vocal group and turned it into such a hackneyed film, especially in part 2 when they head into the 1970s singing EIGHTIES FUNK. Still not over that transition and the singer sounded like Barrington Henderson lol

It was definitely an attempt to Temptations-ize the Dells.

https://youtu.be/LmfcJGoAURA

There were quite a few flaws with this movie. And that Plot twist with JT and Tonya, WTF?!

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Originally Posted by midnightman

Here's the thing about this film: I think he obviously changed many things about it. It was originally going to be a comedy but the Dells were like "dude, these were serious times, we went through hell, i.e., being raised in the inner city, risen up the ranks in the chitlin' circuit, dealing with racism, etc." but whereas the Dells managed to beat the odds against 'em [[AFAIK there's no history of drug abuse, arrests or even intra-conflicts, like there were with the Temptations, which is what he also seemed to base the film on, albeit very exaggerated).

But from what I gather, yeah, Big Red was based after Don Robey, who actually beat the ish out of a pre-fame Little Richard when he demanded royalties so Bird could've been a LR and Jackie Wilson doppleganger. I think Jackie asked about royalties too.

Parts of where you can tell it's based on the Dells:
The fact the Dells were originally a sextet, as were, technically at least, the Five Heartbeats [[Duck wasn't even an official member, he was their songwriter and backing pianist)
The Dells originally had two brothers, Lucius & Mickey McGill; Lucius ended up leaving the group; so did the Five Heartbeats [[Duck and JT)
Both groups look like they were based in Chicago [[correct me if I'm wrong)
The Dells' anger over white faces being featured on their album covers [[which was true for most black vocal groups; the cover in the Five Heartbeats' album mimicked the cover used for the Isley Brothers' "This Old Heart of Mine" album)
I guess, correct me again, the Dells had Cholly Atkins helping them with their choreography [[Cholly in the Five Heartbeats' film was Harold Nicholas' "Sarge")

Other than that, I don't know any more similarities!

Jimmy's murder... did the Dells have a manager that was murdered similarly?

Did the Dells members accuse others of sleeping with the same woman? Because if that was the case, why stay together? Because they weathered storms together but I doubt it was that crazy! Now the Temptations on the other hand...

I know some of the Dells members probably dealt with religious fathers and distant fathers but I don't know their back story. They should've gotten together with David Ritz and wrote a book when all of the members were still alive. But it seems the altercations with Eddie and Choirboy's fathers in the Five Heartbeats film was based after Marvin Gaye [[correct me if I'm wrong).

Eddie & Babydoll's relationship could've been based off any of the Motown relationships at the time.

Just so many questions. I don't think Robert respected the Dells at all. He turned what could've been a respectable film about the rise of an African American vocal group and turned it into such a hackneyed film, especially in part 2 when they head into the 1970s singing EIGHTIES FUNK. Still not over that transition and the singer sounded like Barrington Henderson lol

It was definitely an attempt to Temptations-ize the Dells.

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Big Red definitely has traces of Robey and Nat Tarnopol, Jackie Wilson’s manager. Robey is alleged to have sabotaged Johnny Ace’s gun, causing his death. Jimmy’s murder might have been based on that. The Dells also are responsible for the classic scene where Bird is dangled out of a window. That actually happened to Jackie Wilson, but he was trying to get out of his contract, not asking about royalties.

The Five Heartbeats were from NYC , not Chicago. As far personnel changes, Johnny Funces was the original lead singer. He left in 1960 to devote more time for his family, not because of drugs or management issues.

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Originally Posted by jboy88

Big Red definitely has traces of Robey and Nat Tarnopol, Jackie Wilson’s manager. Robey is alleged to have sabotaged Johnny Ace’s gun, causing his death. Jimmy’s murder might have been based on that. The Dells also are responsible for the classic scene where Bird is dangled out of a window. That actually happened to Jackie Wilson, but he was trying to get out of his contract, not asking about royalties.

The Five Heartbeats were from NYC , not Chicago. As far personnel changes, Johnny Funces was the original lead singer. He left in 1960 to devote more time for his family, not because of drugs or management issues.

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OH OKAY! Yeah I thought they were either in Chicago or NYC but I wasn't sure. :)

But yeah Big Red seemed to be a mixture of Robey and Tarnopol, both of whom were thugs. The Big Red headlines after Bird [[and supposedly Jimmy) testified against Big Red look like headlines you would see with Tarnopol. Creepy thought about Robey messing with Ace's gun but that's a good possibility!!! Robey was the Suge Knight of his time.

Anyway, I heard some who worked at Brunswick dispute the Jackie balcony claim and Jackie wouldn't even entertain that story.

http://www.soul-patrol.com/soul/jackie.html

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Originally Posted by midnightman

Here's the thing about this film: I think he obviously changed many things about it. It was originally going to be a comedy but the Dells were like "dude, these were serious times, we went through hell, i.e., being raised in the inner city, risen up the ranks in the chitlin' circuit, dealing with racism, etc." but whereas the Dells managed to beat the odds against 'em [[AFAIK there's no history of drug abuse, arrests or even intra-conflicts, like there were with the Temptations, which is what he also seemed to base the film on, albeit very exaggerated).

But from what I gather, yeah, Big Red was based after Don Robey, who actually beat the ish out of a pre-fame Little Richard when he demanded royalties so Bird could've been a LR and Jackie Wilson doppleganger. I think Jackie asked about royalties too.

Parts of where you can tell it's based on the Dells:
The fact the Dells were originally a sextet, as were, technically at least, the Five Heartbeats [[Duck wasn't even an official member, he was their songwriter and backing pianist)
The Dells originally had two brothers, Lucius & Mickey McGill; Lucius ended up leaving the group; so did the Five Heartbeats [[Duck and JT)
Both groups look like they were based in Chicago [[correct me if I'm wrong)
The Dells' anger over white faces being featured on their album covers [[which was true for most black vocal groups; the cover in the Five Heartbeats' album mimicked the cover used for the Isley Brothers' "This Old Heart of Mine" album)
I guess, correct me again, the Dells had Cholly Atkins helping them with their choreography [[Cholly in the Five Heartbeats' film was Harold Nicholas' "Sarge")

Other than that, I don't know any more similarities!

Jimmy's murder... did the Dells have a manager that was murdered similarly?

Did the Dells members accuse others of sleeping with the same woman? Because if that was the case, why stay together? Because they weathered storms together but I doubt it was that crazy! Now the Temptations on the other hand...

I know some of the Dells members probably dealt with religious fathers and distant fathers but I don't know their back story. They should've gotten together with David Ritz and wrote a book when all of the members were still alive. But it seems the altercations with Eddie and Choirboy's fathers in the Five Heartbeats film was based after Marvin Gaye [[correct me if I'm wrong).

Eddie & Babydoll's relationship could've been based off any of the Motown relationships at the time.

Just so many questions. I don't think Robert respected the Dells at all. He turned what could've been a respectable film about the rise of an African American vocal group and turned it into such a hackneyed film, especially in part 2 when they head into the 1970s singing EIGHTIES FUNK. Still not over that transition and the singer sounded like Barrington Henderson lol

It was definitely an attempt to Temptations-ize the Dells.

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Here's a big difference that you missed completely. Do you remember early in the film they were all from the same place? The same city as young guys. Toward the end and after they had aged some, it was like a family or neighborhood reunion. The Dell all with the exception of Marvin Junior was from Chicago! The Temptations came from a variety of places and all met up in Detroit [[Paul and Eddie, along with Kell Osborne came up from Birmingham, AL). The Temptations did not know each other when all the individuals started singing publicly. They met over time.

Robert Townsend is just wrong as Hell. At least Suzanne DePasse put her BS out there as she went along and completed the project. Robert is changing things now nearly 30 years after his film's release. The Dells took a lot of pride in that film.

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Originally Posted by jboy88

Big Red definitely has traces of Robey and Nat Tarnopol, Jackie Wilson’s manager. Robey is alleged to have sabotaged Johnny Ace’s gun, causing his death. Jimmy’s murder might have been based on that. The Dells also are responsible for the classic scene where Bird is dangled out of a window. That actually happened to Jackie Wilson, but he was trying to get out of his contract, not asking about royalties.

The Five Heartbeats were from NYC , not Chicago. As far personnel changes, Johnny Funces was the original lead singer. He left in 1960 to devote more time for his family, not because of drugs or management issues.

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Also no one was going to stand toe to toe and beat Jackie Wilson's ass. He was an excellent boxer. Boxed Golden Gloves in Detroit.

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Originally Posted by marv2

Here's a big difference that you missed completely. Do you remember early in the film they were all from the same place? The same city as young guys. Toward the end and after they had aged some, it was like a family or neighborhood reunion. The Dell all with the exception of Marvin Junior was from Chicago! The Temptations came from a variety of places and all met up in Detroit [[Paul and Eddie, along with Kell Osborne came up from Birmingham, AL). The Temptations did not know each other when all the individuals started singing publicly. They met over time.

Robert Townsend is just wrong as Hell. At least Suzanne DePasse put her BS out there as she went along and completed the project. Robert is changing things now nearly 30 years after his film's release. The Dells took a lot of pride in that film.

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What I do know: if Townsend took all that knowledge from the Dells, he used it and screwed it up even 30 years ago when they were making the film. The Dells were more of a brotherhood than say the Temptations anyway. Wish it had been more like that. I can see what you mean in the final scene because, in the way, the film depicted them, they were close as thieves [[much like the Dells).

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Originally Posted by midnightman

Anyway, I heard some who worked at Brunswick dispute the Jackie balcony claim and Jackie wouldn't even entertain that story.

http://www.soul-patrol.com/soul/jackie.html

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Powerful read, MM. Real deep stuff
Sad ending.

What's always bothered me about these legendary voices, is this:
The end seems to come a)from the end of a barrel b)label mismanagement c)poverty or d)poor and ignored health. Am I reaching here? Way in.

Looks like the Dells aren’t the only ones Townsend has betrayed. If Faizon Love, who played Wendell on his sitcom among others, is to be believed. https://youtu.be/tYQAPr6aCVc

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Originally Posted by nativeNY63

What's always bothered me about these legendary voices, is this:
The end seems to come a)from the end of a barrel b)label mismanagement c)poverty or d)poor and ignored health. Am I reaching here? Way in.

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Nah you're pretty accurate. It's scary.

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Originally Posted by marv2

Also no one was going to stand toe to toe and beat Jackie Wilson's ass. He was an excellent boxer. Boxed Golden Gloves in Detroit.

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I’m aware of that bit of trivia, but it’s not like he was Ali, Liston or Tyson. Even if Jackie was on their level, Tarnopol probably had five or six goons with lead pipes on his side to subdue him [[Remember, Big Red had quite a bit of help with Bird). So I have to believe Marvin Junior on this one.